Horrific. The spire has collapsed. https://twitter.com/patrickgaley/status/1117848909877895171:(
It'll have been a timber roof structure and masonry walls.
One of the interesting features of the tour is the chance to go under the roof framework and walk the length of the building. This magnificent structure, originally done in wood, was destroyed by fire in World War I. The lead in the roof also melted and dripped out through the gargoyles. The structure was rebuilt with support from the French government and John D. Rockefeller Jr. The current roof structure is made of reinforced concrete. The entire building suffered significant damage during the war, and for a time the plan was to convert it to a memorial. Fortunately, the cathedral was restored and it re-opened in 1938.
I'm just looking at my pictures of the interior from last year. Everything will be gone :'(
Edit: "A glimmer of good news: all the artworks in #NotreDame have been saved, according to the ND priest. The treasure of the cathedral is intact, including the crown of thorns and the holy sacraments. Here’s hoping that the exterior structure will remain standing"
https://twitter.com/DrDenaGrayson/status/1117873021673283584
It'll have been a timber roof structure and masonry walls.
The roof structure sits on top of the masonry like a hat.
Going to be disastrous by the looks of it. Renovations seem to be high risk; remembering Cutty Sark (on a smaller scale)...
I'm so very very upset by this. For three years I lived in a little apartment on L'île St Louis, just a couple of hundred metres from Notre dame. I walked past it every day. I sat in it on the occasional afternoon for organ practice and (non religious) contemplation.
I'm so worried about the rose window. Reports I've seen suggest its not survived.. uncorroborated so far.
I'm fucking devastated. :'(
It seems that the vaulted stone ceiling is mainly still intact. The wooden roof above it is gone, but amazingly the falling bits of roof didn't take much of the stone ceiling down.
https://twitter.com/hashtag/NotreDame?src=tren&data_id=tweet%3A1117840323697414145&lang=en-gb (https://twitter.com/hashtag/NotreDame?src=tren&data_id=tweet%3A1117840323697414145&lang=en-gb)
It seems that the vaulted stone ceiling is mainly still intact. The wooden roof above it is gone, but amazingly the falling bits of roof didn't take much of the stone ceiling down.
https://twitter.com/hashtag/NotreDame?src=tren&data_id=tweet%3A1117840323697414145&lang=en-gb (https://twitter.com/hashtag/NotreDame?src=tren&data_id=tweet%3A1117840323697414145&lang=en-gb)
Image 5 in this page shows a section of the vaulted ceiling.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47945465
On June 4, 1836, following the carelessness of plumbers who were making repairs, a fire broke out in the roofing timbers of Chartres cathedral. The fire spread quickly, destroying the wood frame, the forest, and the cathedral's lead roof. Fortunately, the fire did not advance into the bell tower. There, the great bell was not harmed, sounding for half an hour. Many lower bells were lost, to be replaced in 1840 and 1845 by those still rung today.
The roof was replaced by a beautiful iron frame and a copper roof, built in metal for future safety and for economy, like the partial roof at Southwark Cathedral, London built during the restoration of 1822-25, and the cupola at Mayence [Mainz in Germany], built in 1827 (?). When built, the span over the cathedral's crossing (where the nave crosses the transept) was the largest of any iron-framed construction in Europe. The iron frame looks like a huge boat overturned. The framing has joists of wrought and cast iron, connected by rafters that ensure the rigidity of the structure.
Although large parts of Miltonrigg Woods and the adjoining Folly Wood are ancient in origin, many of the trees seen today have been planted. Both woods are dominated by oak and beech, with pockets of birch, ash and sycamore which were planted around 1890. Subsequently areas have been intermittently felled and planted with conifers such as European large, Scots pine and Norway spruce between 1945 – 1984.
The woodland also contains some magnificent older trees of such quality that some were used in the rebuilding of part of the roof of York Minster in 1984 following a catastrophic fire.
Just seen a LONG thread on Twitter about trees in Versailles, planted after the French Revolution to rebuild Notre Dame if needed. They are mature now. Seems moot if they are planes or oak...
Indeed, and there is the small matter of the seriously damaged scaffolding that will need to be dealt with.
Not unlike the fatal incident at Didcot 2 years ago:Indeed, and there is the small matter of the seriously damaged scaffolding that will need to be dealt with.
Indeed, taking that down's going to be like a giant game of Jenga.
Bound to be oak forests. Europe has a vast quantity of high grade standing oak which would be suitable.
They would have to do some large scale structural repairs if they were going to use oak, as it would be extremely heavy in its green state.
Cast Iron was used after a fire at Chartres in the 1830s.QuoteOn June 4, 1836, following the carelessness of plumbers who were making repairs, a fire broke out in the roofing timbers of Chartres cathedral. The fire spread quickly, destroying the wood frame, the forest, and the cathedral's lead roof. Fortunately, the fire did not advance into the bell tower. There, the great bell was not harmed, sounding for half an hour. Many lower bells were lost, to be replaced in 1840 and 1845 by those still rung today.
The roof was replaced by a beautiful iron frame and a copper roof, built in metal for future safety and for economy, like the partial roof at Southwark Cathedral, London built during the restoration of 1822-25, and the cupola at Mayence [Mainz in Germany], built in 1827 (?). When built, the span over the cathedral's crossing (where the nave crosses the transept) was the largest of any iron-framed construction in Europe. The iron frame looks like a huge boat overturned. The framing has joists of wrought and cast iron, connected by rafters that ensure the rigidity of the structure.
https://www.abelard.org/france/using-metal-in-cathedral-construction.php
The fabric of churches built before 1905 is owned by the state in France, and they've been pretty unsentimental about originality in reconstruction in the past. The reference to 'plumbers' refers to working with lead, the roof cladding.
My nephew and his colleagues at Salisbury Cathedral may be some of the experts seconded for the rebuilding. There's an international shortage of qualified and experienced cathedral stonemasons.
My nephew and his colleagues at Salisbury Cathedral may be some of the experts seconded for the rebuilding. There's an international shortage of qualified and experienced cathedral stonemasons.
I recall you saying that your nephew was training for that job some years ago. I thought of him when I read this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-47673596
I hope you've told him to always take precautions ...
Given that Notre Dame is such a tourist magnet and earner for Paris and France (it gets more than twice as many visitors than the Tower of London, St Paul's and Westminster Abbey combined) and the building is actually owned by the state it's a bit of a cheek that, other than a minimal amount from the Culture Department, the Archdiocese of Paris is expected pay for its upkeep.
It’s not actually owned by the Archdiocese of Paris
Due to France’s laws regarding secularization, the French government owns all churches built before 1905, including Notre-Dame. The government lets the Archdiocese of Paris use the building for free, and will continue to do so in perpetuity. The Archdiocese of Paris is responsible for the upkeep of the church, as well as for paying employees.
The Concordat in Alsace-Moselle is the part of the Local law in Alsace-Moselle relating to the official status accorded to certain religions in these territories.
This Concordat is a remnant of the Napoleonic Concordat of 1801. The 1801 Concordat was abrogated in the rest of France by the law of 1905 on the separation of church and state. However, at the time, Alsace-Moselle had been annexed by Germany, so the Concordat remained in force in these areas. The Concordat recognises four religious traditions in Alsace-Moselle: three branches of Christianity (Catholic, Lutheran and Reformed) plus the Jewish religion. Therefore, the French concept of laïcité, a rigid separation of church and state, does not apply in this region.
Though the French government currently spends two million euros ($2.3 million) a year for maintenance work, the conservation to-do list had grown long.
My nephew and his colleagues at Salisbury Cathedral may be some of the experts seconded for the rebuilding. There's an international shortage of qualified and experienced cathedral stonemasons.
Work on shake by the Forestry Commission has stressed that to avoid it oak should not be grown on dry, stony and gravelly soils, and damage to trees should be avoided in harvesting. These can act as 'triggers' for shake.
The splits just from the ends being in the wind, if you go down to any wood yard you'll see that.
As for building with, this stuff is traditionally built with whilst it's green as seasoning it would take an age and make it difficult to work.
My nephew and his colleagues at Salisbury Cathedral may be some of the experts seconded for the rebuilding. There's an international shortage of qualified and experienced cathedral stonemasons.
My father inlaw is a cathedral stonemason. York Minster, St Georges Chapel Windsor and several others. Ended up in charge of maintenance for Ancient Monuments for the North of England. Maybe they will offer him pots of cash to come out of retirement.
The splits just from the ends being in the wind, if you go down to any wood yard you'll see that.
As for building with, this stuff is traditionally built with whilst it's green as seasoning it would take an age and make it difficult to work.
OK, fair enough.
The splits just from the ends being in the wind, if you go down to any wood yard you'll see that.
The term 'shake' describes the longitudinal separations in the wood of standing oak (and sweet chestnut) trees that can severely reduce the conversion potential of stems. They occur either radially (star shake), or around the circumference of an annual ring (ring shake). The separations, if not already large, tend to extend during timber processing. Shake has been recognized as a serious problem to users of oak since at least the time of John Evelyn in 1664. It occurs in nearly all British and Irish oak plantations and quite often affects more than 50% of the trees in a stand. The roadside value of shaken timber may be as little as 20% of that of sound timber. It has been estimated that an average of a little over 20% of all oaks in Great Britain may be shaken though there are regional variations. A consequence of this is that the Timber Trade has low expectations of oak, which are reflected in low prices.
Maybe, maybe not.QuoteThe term 'shake' describes the longitudinal separations in the wood of standing oak (and sweet chestnut) trees that can severely reduce the conversion potential of stems. They occur either radially (star shake), or around the circumference of an annual ring (ring shake). The separations, if not already large, tend to extend during timber processing. Shake has been recognized as a serious problem to users of oak since at least the time of John Evelyn in 1664. It occurs in nearly all British and Irish oak plantations and quite often affects more than 50% of the trees in a stand. The roadside value of shaken timber may be as little as 20% of that of sound timber. It has been estimated that an average of a little over 20% of all oaks in Great Britain may be shaken though there are regional variations. A consequence of this is that the Timber Trade has low expectations of oak, which are reflected in low prices.
It's why merchants are reluctant to buy standing Oak and Sweet Chestnut.
We normally recommend standing sale by competitive tender as being the best method of selling timber. This aims to maximise income and minimise risk for the owner. Alternatively timber can be sold by negotiation, private treaty or auction.http://www.hwforestry.co.uk/timber-sales
QP1 Grading (Second highest quality)https://www.iwood.co.uk/timber-knowledge-library/timber-construction/beam-grading-rules---qpa-and-qp1/
Sawn timber with practically sharp arrises, permitting wane less than 10% of the face width across no more than 30% of the length.
This width tolerance is increased to 15% for sections above 250 x 250mm.
Sound sapwood permitted on two arrises if the total width is less than 15% of the face width.
Fully or partly intergrown sound knots are permitted if the diameter is less than half the face width.
Boxed heart permitted, as well as traces of heartwood on both faces. Slope of the grain less than 12%, not exceeding 20% locally.
Permitted on a limited number of pieces: brown streak, black holes, brown pith. Excluded: unsound knots, frost crack, ring shake, star shake, curly grain, bark pocket, unsound sapwood, rot, white holes.
One of the other French cathedrals rebuilt their roof after a fire using reinforced concrete beams moulded to look exactly like wooden ones down to moulding the wood joints. This was specifically to reduce the fire risk. I wonder if they will do the same thing with Notre-Dame? The Sagrada Família in Barcelona uses moulded concrete for its mad vaulted roof as well.
On December 16, 1431, Henry VI of England was crowned as "King of France" in the Notre Dame de Paris, according to a ritual similar to that established by his great-grandfather Charles V of France. This was an attempt to counter the coronation of Henry's uncle and rival, Charles VII of France, who had been crowned at Reims in 1429.
In 1844 King Louis Philippe ordered that the church be restored. The commission for the restoration was won by two architects, Jean-Baptiste-Antoine Lassus and Eugène Viollet-le-Duc, who was then just 31 years old. They supervised a large team of sculptors, glass makers and other craftsmen who remade, working from drawings or engravings, the original decoration, or, if they did not have a model, adding new elements they felt were in the spirit of the original style. They made a taller and more ornate reconstruction of the original spire (including a statue of Saint Thomas that resembles Viollet-le-Duc), as well as adding the sculpture of mythical creatures on the Galerie des Chimères. The restoration took twenty five years.[24]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notre-Dame_de_Paris
There seems to have been a fair bit of human error and fallibility (to put it mildly) in the fire safety plans for the cathedral.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/19/world/europe/notre-dame-fire-safety.html?emc=edit_ne_20190419&nl=evening-briefing&nlid=1555877320190419&te=1
I've read that the huge donations made by a few billionaires are eligible for 60% tax relief.
:thumbsup:
I hope they have planted another oak forest….
https://twitter.com/AgnesCPoirier/status/1678795808425013248 New roof trusses being delivered by barge.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F0xHfueWwAMDTex?format=jpg&name=small)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F0xHfupXgAAZ3xe?format=jpg&name=small)