Author Topic: Routes and waypoints - Etrex Legend HCx  (Read 6464 times)

robgul

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Routes and waypoints - Etrex Legend HCx
« on: 26 November, 2009, 09:50:25 pm »
I know this has been aired before in relation to tracks and following them ... but :

I'm planning a route for the E2E (done it downhill, doing it uphill this time) .....

My ideal scenario is to create a "Route" in Memory Map for each day and then load that to the GPS - then use the Routes feature on the GPS with the arrow pointing where I'm going and bleeping when a turn approaches (and with the mapping I now have, see the map too - in the past I have just watched the arrow ... as long as it points over the front wheel it's OK!)   
 
The difficulty with my preferred option is that the GPS's capacity for "Waypoints" (as against "Trackpoints") is 1,000 points and 50 routes (and a max of 250 points per Route)  The Routes I create have as few Waypoints as possible by plotting lines straight through lots of obvious junctions and only plotting at sharp turns or tricky bits - but I can't seem to get down to the 1000 point limit :-(

What I'm asking is whether there is any way to either store more routes/waypoints in the GPS (perhaps on the SD card) - or any way to load them during the journey to replace the route already completed (without access to Memory Map and PC)

 Other gadgetry which will be available is Palm Treo Pro Smartphone running WinMobile - this does have Memory Map and the routes on the OS loaded BUT is not very robust to use on the handlebars]

All suggestions welcome ..... I've even considered getting a second GPS ....

Rob

Chris S

Re: Routes and waypoints - Etrex Legend HCx
« Reply #1 on: 26 November, 2009, 09:56:45 pm »
Have you read Frankly Frankie's most excellent missive here?

robgul

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Re: Routes and waypoints - Etrex Legend HCx
« Reply #2 on: 27 November, 2009, 09:46:12 am »
Ah, thanks - possibly Eureka ..... I tried the "soak test " and it got up to 4000 points.

It would seem that provided my Memory Map plotted daily chunks are less than 250 points each I can save them as .gpx files - then open them in MapSource to transfer them to the GPS, exceeding the 1000 limit.

It would seem that the limit issue applies if I transfer direct from Memory Map to the GPS.

Does that seem logical?   

(I am a bit worried about the additional weight I will have to carry with that many points in the GPS  ;D ;D ;D )

Rob

frankly frankie

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Re: Routes and waypoints - Etrex Legend HCx
« Reply #3 on: 27 November, 2009, 12:07:17 pm »
In the page linked above I described a LE-JoG file that I've got, which has been used for the last 3 years by someone who regularly runs cycle tours along this route:
LeJog, laney 1600km 17-day route:
38 user waypoints   basically one for each overnight, one for each midday stop
18 routes, totalling 1254 points   basically one a day  (incidentally each route has fewer than 120 points)
16 stored tracks, totalling 6753 points   basically one a day
and all this squeezed into a Legend C, an oldish model with no data card and limited memory by current standards.


The important distinction is between the two types of Waypoint - the type that are made using the 'Waypoint' tool (in any program - which I refer to as 'User Waypoints') and the type that are generated by the 'Route' tool (in Mapsource - which I refer to as 'Routepoints').  
Your 1000 limit is for User Waypoints only.
My soak test page is primarily about Routepoints, and if you are planning a big project like Lejog then you do have to learn a few tricks about how to convert User Waypoints to Routepoints.  Or you rely on autorouting - which I absolutely would not recommend - after all this is a planning exercise.

Mem Map *I think* generates User Waypoints when you draw a Route.  Its easy to check this - do a short trial, just 5 points or so, and export it as a GPX.  Now open the GPX in a text editor to inspect it.

If, after all the header malarkey, you see several <wpt> tags - you have User Waypoints, and these would become part of your 1000 point allowance.
Regardless of whether these are there or not, there will then be a <rte> tag and your Route information starts here.  This bit (and the header/footer of course) is actually all Mapsource and your GPS needs, and does not figure at all in the 1000 points.

So - one way to minimise User Waypoints is to save as GPX (from any program), open in a text editor and strip out some or all of the <wpt></wpt> tagged waypoints.  Save, then load the GPX into Mapsource.  This does work, but is not the best way.

I've found a cleaner result is if you do as above, save the GPX - then use GPSBabel to convert the GPX to a GDB file.  Then open that in Mapsource.

Either way if you look at the waypoints count in Mapsource you should find it is now very low.

Another way to get rid of User Waypoints is very simple indeed - simply don't upload them to the GPS.  When you upload from Mapsource, simply untick the Waypoints tickbox.  The Routes uploaded to the GPS will still work (in direct or 'off road' mode).

Another way to do all this would be to utilise the excellent free program WinGDB3 - which basically supplies several utilities that should be built into Mapsource but aren't.  As the name implies, it works on GDB files only.  I haven't really explored this method myself, but I think you could do a sequence of conversions to get the desired result - eg,
6. Convert routes to tracks with via points
open the converted file in Mapsource, delete some or all of the Waypoints. Save.
10. Convert tracks to routes with via points.
open this in Mapsource, will now be a workable Route again but with fewer or no User Waypoints
However this method (I've just tried it) alters the Routepoint names which is rather unfortunate.

(NB that in WinGDB3, nomenclature is different - what I call 'Routepoints' are called 'Via Points'.  'Route Points' are taken to be the intermediate points generated by the Mapsource autorouting algorithm.)

Final note - none of the above is a good idea if you expect the resulting files to be used for autorouting or 'follow road' in the GPS.  For best results with Follow Road, you need several intermediate User Waypoints.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

robgul

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Re: Routes and waypoints - Etrex Legend HCx
« Reply #4 on: 27 November, 2009, 12:39:30 pm »
Thanks for the comprehensive (!) response - as I said in the OP I plan to do nothing more sophisticated than use each day route in the GPS with the "follow the arrow (not on the road - and certainly not auto-routing) and listen for bleeps at the major turns" method.

- and as I like maps I shall be printing an A5 sized OS map book at about 1-75000 scale anyway :thumbsup:

It does seem to work OK in the way I described - simply saving the MemMap route to gpx and transferring to the GPS via MapSource rather than direct.

I'll test it out with a load of local routes I have "in stock" to make sure it copes with the number of "points" that will do the job - I'd prefer not to be text editing etc if it can be avoided.

Rob

frankly frankie

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Re: Routes and waypoints - Etrex Legend HCx
« Reply #5 on: 27 November, 2009, 01:07:15 pm »
I see.  Looking at your OP again -

Quote
What I'm asking is whether there is any way to either store more routes/waypoints in the GPS (perhaps on the SD card) - or any way to load them during the journey to replace the route already completed (without access to Memory Map and PC)

No, unfortunately, and no.

Quote
All suggestions welcome ..... I've even considered getting a second GPS ....

Well personally, for a major long-distance project, I would carry a spare GPS anyway.  But then I use the mapping side of it a bit more.  The only reason I still carry some paper maps on a multiweek tour would be for browsing in the evenings.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

robgul

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Re: Routes and waypoints - Etrex Legend HCx
« Reply #6 on: 30 November, 2009, 08:48:08 am »
Quick update - the complete LEJOG route plotted in MemMap as daily chunks has been created and (test) loaded to the GPS using .gpx files and MapSource.  Perfect.

Thanks for the explanations

Rob

plum

Re: Routes and waypoints - Etrex Legend HCx
« Reply #7 on: 31 December, 2009, 05:57:37 pm »
Have you read Frankly Frankie's most excellent missive here?
Most excellent, instantly answered questions about which I've been scratching my head for days.

Re: Routes and waypoints - Etrex Legend HCx
« Reply #8 on: 31 December, 2009, 06:45:36 pm »
i wouldn't use routes and waypoints i'd use (saved) tracks with a tracklog up to the max number of trackpoints (500?) rather than a daily mileage. do enough to cover your chosen roads save them and then select to show them all on screen. that way all you have to do is switch it on every morning.
i usually just follow the track on screen cos the bleeps annoy me after a while , but i's easy enough to let the gps navigate for you.
i'd just put waypoints in for poi like cafes, bike shops  and that sort of thing.
i use traclogs mapping but i expect mm will be very similar.
i haven't plotted anything of the e to e length but i've done several days and it's worked with no problems.

Re: Routes and waypoints - Etrex Legend HCx
« Reply #9 on: 31 December, 2009, 06:50:34 pm »
Thanks for the comprehensive (!) response - as I said in the OP I plan to do nothing more sophisticated than use each day route in the GPS with the "follow the arrow (not on the road - and certainly not auto-routing) and listen for bleeps at the major turns" method.

- and as I like maps I shall be printing an A5 sized OS map book at about 1-75000 scale anyway :thumbsup:

It does seem to work OK in the way I described - simply saving the MemMap route to gpx and transferring to the GPS via MapSource rather than direct.

I'll test it out with a load of local routes I have "in stock" to make sure it copes with the number of "points" that will do the job - I'd prefer not to be text editing etc if it can be avoided.

Rob

Sorry I missed this Rob - I uploaded a set of tracks on bikehike.co.uk - robslejog1, robslejog2 etc if you want to take a look at them.  They were designed for a rapid whup up but unfortunately I only got as far as Lancaster at the first attempt as my left achilles started playing up.

robgul

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Re: Routes and waypoints - Etrex Legend HCx
« Reply #10 on: 31 December, 2009, 06:51:58 pm »
i wouldn't use routes and waypoints i'd use (saved) tracks with a tracklog up to the max number of trackpoints (500?) rather than a daily mileage. do enough to cover your chosen roads save them and then select to show them all on screen. that way all you have to do is switch it on every morning.
i usually just follow the track on screen cos the bleeps annoy me after a while , but i's easy enough to let the gps navigate for you.
i'd just put waypoints in for poi like cafes, bike shops  and that sort of thing.
i use traclogs mapping but i expect mm will be very similar.
i haven't plotted anything of the e to e length but i've done several days and it's worked with no problems.


In Mem Map (and I think Tracklogs) it tends to fall over when you start to put more than about 500 or 600 points (of whatever flavour) into a single route/track.  My "per day" system also works better for the way that we also be printing a map book of the journey.

Rob

plum

Re: Routes and waypoints - Etrex Legend HCx
« Reply #11 on: 02 January, 2010, 11:20:22 pm »
In Mem Map (and I think Tracklogs) it tends to fall over when you start to put more than about 500 or 600 points (of whatever flavour) into a single route/track.  My "per day" system also works better for the way that we also be printing a map book of the journey.

Rob
I'm new to it but I'm fairly sure there's a 250 waypoint hard limit to individual routes? Tracks can get much bigger I know, as many as 10000 depending on how you have the unit set up.

MemoryMap has issues though, I've found that I can create routes in it that get truncated on upload [it breaks them into 100 waypoint chunks], but if I use Mapsource to upload the same .gps files it works flawlessly. Even Google Maps will upload bigger files to my Legend HXc than MemoryMap. If that's something to do with the way I've set it up I'd be glad to hear, but from what I've searched it seems to be a limitation of the software.

frankly frankie

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Re: Routes and waypoints - Etrex Legend HCx
« Reply #12 on: 03 January, 2010, 12:06:26 am »
250 points per route (uploaded Routes in 'direct' or 'off road' mode) (250 is loads, actually)
50 points (uploaded Routes in 'autoroute' or 'follow road' mode) (this too is loads)
500 points (uploaded Tracks) (this is slightly limiting, but easy to work around)
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

fuaran

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Re: Routes and waypoints - Etrex Legend HCx
« Reply #13 on: 03 January, 2010, 12:18:50 am »
MemoryMap has issues though, I've found that I can create routes in it that get truncated on upload [it breaks them into 100 waypoint chunks], but if I use Mapsource to upload the same .gps files it works flawlessly. Even Google Maps will upload bigger files to my Legend HXc than MemoryMap. If that's something to do with the way I've set it up I'd be glad to hear, but from what I've searched it seems to be a limitation of the software.
Click the "GPS" menu, then "GPS setup". At the bottom of that window is options for "GPS limits". I think it defaults to 100 waypoints per route, but you can increase that to whatever you want.
Also worth increasing the waypoint name length - I think the Legend HCx can use 14 character waypoint names.

plum

Re: Routes and waypoints - Etrex Legend HCx
« Reply #14 on: 03 January, 2010, 10:39:25 am »
/facepalm

How did I miss that? Many thanks :)

Re: Routes and waypoints - Etrex Legend HCx
« Reply #15 on: 14 February, 2010, 12:09:27 am »
MemoryMap has issues though, I've found that I can create routes in it that get truncated on upload [it breaks them into 100 waypoint chunks], but if I use Mapsource to upload the same .gps files it works flawlessly. Even Google Maps will upload bigger files to my Legend HXc than MemoryMap. If that's something to do with the way I've set it up I'd be glad to hear, but from what I've searched it seems to be a limitation of the software.
Click the "GPS" menu, then "GPS setup". At the bottom of that window is options for "GPS limits". I think it defaults to 100 waypoints per route, but you can increase that to whatever you want.
Also worth increasing the waypoint name length - I think the Legend HCx can use 14 character waypoint names.



i'm a bit thick , where can i find the "GPS" menu and "GPS" setup

Re: Routes and waypoints - Etrex Legend HCx
« Reply #16 on: 14 February, 2010, 12:21:50 am »
It's at the top of the MemoryMap screen: hit GPS, then the top option, GPS setup.

Re: Routes and waypoints - Etrex Legend HCx
« Reply #17 on: 14 February, 2010, 06:45:06 pm »
yup , i'm thick
i looked everywhere on my Etrex and could'nt find it

 cap'n Thicky

rogerzilla

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Re: Routes and waypoints - Etrex Legend HCx
« Reply #18 on: 14 February, 2010, 06:48:04 pm »
I do find the eTrex to be full of usability FAIL, even in such simple things as the "up" button zooming out while the "down" button zooms in.  And I wonder how many people know that you enter the postcode in the "City" field when searching for an address?
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

plum

Re: Routes and waypoints - Etrex Legend HCx
« Reply #19 on: 15 February, 2010, 08:11:40 am »
I'm not sure I altogether agree with that. There is so much cutomisability built into the things, and with only 5 buttons to work it all, there has to be some compromise in terms of ergo-friendliness. In particular I would say that some modes can be hard to find, but I wouldn't say particularly badly placed.

Wrt to your two specific issues, hitting the 'up' button moves your perspective up away from the map, and clicking 'down' drops you down towards the map. I see no problem with that, I've found it to be quite intuitive.

Also maybe you can enter the postcode into the city field, I've never tried, but that is because I've never had any problems using mine as instructed and finding an address by entering the city/town/village name into the city field. The only odd thing about that sems to be entering the names of tiny villages into a field labelled 'City', but considering the software is made for Americans who call any settlement with population > 3 a city I think that's understandable.

I've been trying to puzzle that one out, I figure maybe in the US they designate town or city status by weight. So what was a village in the 1950s is now a large city without the population increasing by a single soul, it's just that the population has got bigger. Little Hat Gulch, pop. 4 Tons, City status, that sort of thing.

Plodder

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Re: Routes and waypoints - Etrex Legend HCx
« Reply #20 on: 15 February, 2010, 01:25:51 pm »
And I wonder how many people know that you enter the postcode in the "City" field when searching for an address?

I didn't. Do now. Not intuitive.

Many thanks :thumbsup:
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