Author Topic: what I have learned today.  (Read 858601 times)

Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2750 on: 17 September, 2018, 07:44:40 pm »
I hadn't seen that specific article Hulver, but I know Professor Arnold's work well and he wrote a longer one at the same place https://theconversation.com/the-scientific-reason-you-dont-like-led-bulbs-and-the-simple-way-to-fix-them-81639 which I do share often.

I find people *don't* believe me when I say lighting flickers. I like the fidget spinner idea, see how well that correlates...
From that web page,
Quote
In contrast, some LEDs flash only 400 times per second. This flicker is still far too rapid to be seen directly, but some people can see multiple images of the lamps every time they make a saccade, which is unpleasantly distracting.

400 Hz!!! Luxury!!! 50 Hz mains lighting tends to flicker at 100 Hz and the taillights on some VW cars flicker at 100 Hz, with just 1 ms on / 9ms off. The prats who signed that off should have asked Prof Arnold for a few wise words.
Quote from: Kim
Paging Diver300.  Diver300 to the GSM Trimphone, please...

Kim

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Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2751 on: 17 September, 2018, 08:02:33 pm »
400Hzish seems to be common for quality LED fixtures with PWM dimming (if you're lucky, some of them will stop flickering at 100% duty cycle), but the capacitive dropper or inadequate smoothing 100Hz type are surely much more prolific.

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2752 on: 18 September, 2018, 10:07:43 am »
I can see up to 2-6kHz flicker directly in many instances (depending on the amplitude of flicker and overall brightness of light) - it's unpleasant and sometimes makes it impossible for me to SEE where stuff IS.

One issue is that even when I can't see visual artefacts from the flicker often cos the light is too bright, I still get immediate discomfort and develop migraines from it.

Problem is the sort of thing that means some of us see this are poorly researched and deemed "controversial". I tend to say "many autistic people are affected" as autism seems to be more valid than other impairments right now. Shit, but true.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2753 on: 18 September, 2018, 12:17:25 pm »
If the flickering comes from poor conversion of AC mains supply to the DC needed to power the diodes, presumably an LED powered from DC, eg a battery, does not flicker. LED domestic lighting seems to be here to stay, so perhaps it's time to look at the domestic power supply. Could we have a separate DC supply specifically for lighting, either rectified on a per-building basis or once for each district? Apparently in the past some countries did have separate domestic lighting and power supplies as each was metered differently, though the supply was the same.

I'm not convinced domestic LEDs are overall an environmental benefit in any case. In addition to the flickering and health issues, the electronic thingers in them are a bit nastier than a strand of wire in a vacuum, and it all gets thrown away at the end.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

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Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2754 on: 18 September, 2018, 01:02:35 pm »
If the flickering comes from poor conversion of AC mains supply to the DC needed to power the diodes, presumably an LED powered from DC, eg a battery, does not flicker.

Simplistically true, but not for the reason you'd expect.  An efficient DC->DC converter is much the same internally as an AC->DC switched-mode power supply[1], and with battery-powered devices what the converter lacks in efficiency you have to make up for with more battery, so manufacturers of battery-powered lighting tend to make a better effort with the drivers.

It's basically a case of certain cost-cutting driver designs (capacitive droppers and the like) that inherently flicker at twice the mains voltage being impractical with DC, rather than a fundamental AC/DC thing.

And if an LED lamp is designed to be dimmable, they nearly always do it by pulse-width modulation (ie. switching on and off at variable duty cycle), rather than controlling the DC current through the LED.  There are sound reasons for that - simple, efficient dimming electronics, consistent brightness control, and the colour of the light not going funny at the bottom end - but most PWM drivers operate at a frequency in the hundreds of hertz that is merely considered to be 'good enough'.  There's some movement towards designing theses things to operate above the human auditory range (coils and such in the drivers can produce an audible whistle), which neatly solves the flicker problem (not even barakta can see a light flickering at 20kHz), but I wouldn't hold your breath.


Quote
LED domestic lighting seems to be here to stay, so perhaps it's time to look at the domestic power supply. Could we have a separate DC supply specifically for lighting, either rectified on a per-building basis or once for each district? Apparently in the past some countries did have separate domestic lighting and power supplies as each was metered differently, though the supply was the same.

No point.  DC or AC, transmission losses go up with the square of the current (and the length of the line), so you want to keep the voltage high for as long as possible to reduce that.  Converting high-voltage DC to an appropriate voltage for driving LEDs is at least as difficult as converting high-voltage AC to an appropriate voltage.

What's needed are standards and regulation for the flicker of lighting, like the ones we have for brightness and energy consumption.  First allow people to know which of the identical-looking lamps in the shop have flicker-free driver electronics, and then mandate that lamps with more than some quantitative flicker measurement not be fitted in new builds or even sold.

Like energy consumption, it's easy enough to test for, given suitable equipment.  You expect the bulbs in the lightbulb shop to be marked with their power consumption, let's require them to be marked with their flicker-factor[2].


Quote
I'm not convinced domestic LEDs are overall an environmental benefit in any case. In addition to the flickering and health issues, the electronic thingers in them are a bit nastier than a strand of wire in a vacuum, and it all gets thrown away at the end.

Agreed.  We've got to the point where an LED fixture develops a fault after n years, and the solution is to throw the entire fixture in the bin.  That's clearly stupid.

Obviously it's not in the manufacturer's interests to design them conservatively for longer life (which is approximately a thermal design trade-off against brightness and materials cost), or for ease of repair.


[1] The average wall-wart first rectifies your 240V AC supply to about 338V DC, before converting to regulated lower voltage with high-frequency switchy regulatey cleverness.  Many will happily run on DC with no modifications (albeit with some risk of overheating).
[2] I predict some single consumer-friendly rating that encompasses frequency, depth of modulation, and weird phosphor-lag colour effects.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2755 on: 18 September, 2018, 01:26:25 pm »
So having a special 240V DC supply would be no good cos flicker would still be induced by converting it to the low voltages needed for LEDs? Obviously having a whole town supplied at 5V or whatever is stupid. What do they do for street lighting? People don't seem to complain about that; is that because the manufacturers are using better converters (cos obviously they're charging more) or cos people don't notice it so much cos it's outside (and there are competing multiple sources) or just cos I haven't heard them?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

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Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2756 on: 18 September, 2018, 01:51:40 pm »
So having a special 240V DC supply would be no good cos flicker would still be induced by converting it to the low voltages needed for LEDs?

Not really, as switched-mode converters tend not to produce visible flicker[1], and resistive droppers on DC produce no flicker at all (while wasting fuckloads of power).  But you can use those flicker-free switched-mode converters just fine on the AC mains we have right now without going to the effort of re-wiring everything.


Quote
What do they do for street lighting? People don't seem to complain about that; is that because the manufacturers are using better converters (cos obviously they're charging more) or cos people don't notice it so much cos it's outside (and there are competing multiple sources) or just cos I haven't heard them?

Street lighting is traditionally sodium or mercury vapour discharge lamps, with magnetic ballasts, which flicker at 100Hz[1].  Those are gradually being replaced with LED fixtures which may flicker at 100Hz, some other frequency, or not at all.  People certainly do complain about LED street lighting, but usually on the grounds of colour temperature or perceived brightness.



[1] It's one of those "how shoddy is the design?" questions, but the typical combination of some output smoothing and switching frequencies in the serverals of kilohertz (which make the transformers smaller and cheaper) means that you tend to just get a little ripple at a frequency the human eye can't detect.
[2] Note that nearby light fixtures that flicker at double the mains frequency will be in sync with each other, at least if they're on the same phase of the mains supply (which they usually will be for wiring/safety reasons).

Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2757 on: 18 September, 2018, 02:32:26 pm »
The architect for that Dundee V&A looks like a Japanese version of one of the architects I work with.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2758 on: 18 September, 2018, 08:27:59 pm »
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2759 on: 19 September, 2018, 10:51:55 am »
Sounds like Henry VIII
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2760 on: 19 September, 2018, 11:37:59 am »
Not to enter "toad's tool" as an Internet search term.

Kim

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Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2761 on: 20 September, 2018, 01:02:28 pm »
One of those linguistic/cultural differences that I'd completely missed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cider_in_the_United_States

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2762 on: 20 September, 2018, 01:05:11 pm »
One of those linguistic/cultural differences that I'd completely missed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cider_in_the_United_States
I bet that leads to a lot of disappointed Brits in Usania and surprised Yanks in Britoland. 
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

rr

Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2763 on: 20 September, 2018, 01:40:11 pm »
R2D2 who does the announcements on Southeastern trains pronounces Meopham as Meffam but I've never ever ever heard a real live actual person say it that way.
I've done the rail journey between Bromley South and Whitstable more times than I've had hot dinners (albeit probably not as many as you, D)
Travelling in either direction, the train always stops at Meopham.
I have never, ever seen anyone board or alight from the train at this station.
Does it stop there because it is the longest linear village in Kent / England / The World?

I have got on and off trains at Meopham many times, but only ever before or after an audax ride - which to my mind is the only reason to visit the place (esteemed audax organiser Tom OTP lives there, so maybe he'll be along shortly to big up its charms, which I'm sure are many).

I didn't know that interesting fact about it being the longest linear village in England, but it doesn't surprise me in the slightest. I remember at the end of one audax after climbing Wrotham hill (ugh!), passing the village sign and thinking, 'Oh good, nearly finished,' and it was most dispiriting to then find myself riding for several more miles before reaching the scout hut - although at least it's mostly downhill.

Anyway, back to the -ham place names, I just remembered that Faversham is Faver-sham rather than Favers-ham - it's rendered as Father's Ham in Russell Hoban's Riddley Walker though, but that's an invention; the original etymology is related to an Old English word for metal workers.
See also Wit-ham in Essex and With-am in Linc's.

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rr

Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2764 on: 20 September, 2018, 01:41:38 pm »
it's almost 30 years ago now that I was applying to universities, I can't remember is much attention was paid to GCSEs or that was just a given, considering you were already studying subjects relevant to desired degree at A level.

GCSE maths and Chemistry being clearly required at GCSE to do those at A-level and form the basis of university offers for example - English admittedly less directly linked, but nonetheless useful for report writing etc

In the early 80s you needed Maths and English O'level or GCSE equivalent for university or you weren't considered to have matriculated, didn't matter what the course was. This was certainly still the case in the late 80s as it caused my sister no end of trouble trying to get into uni as a mature student - she just doesn't get maths and had retry at night school several times. She has a masters now mind and they keep asking her to do a doctorate.
I needed B in English language and a C in a foreign language for my chemical engineering course in 81.

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ian

Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2765 on: 21 September, 2018, 09:55:28 am »
One of those linguistic/cultural differences that I'd completely missed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cider_in_the_United_States
I bet that leads to a lot of disappointed Brits in Usania and surprised Yanks in Britoland.

When I was first over there, I was shocked – SHOCKED – to see Americans handing out cider to their little kids at the town fete. Admittedly, that's probably normal for Bristol. Once, as a wayward teen, half a litre of already-drunk Woodpecker cider boiled out of my nose. I've kind of struggled with any kind of cider since then.

Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2766 on: 21 September, 2018, 10:03:24 am »
Once, as a wayward teen, half a litre of already-drunk Woodpecker cider boiled out of my nose. I've kind of struggled with any kind of cider since then.

Aah that echos my last experience (at a slightly more advanced age) of Newcastle Brown
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

ian

Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2767 on: 21 September, 2018, 10:34:49 am »
See also Southern Comfort. I can't touch that. I can't even be in the same room. Cider, I can probably sniff, but then's the Proustian remembrance of teenage sick. I still remember the first time we got drunk at a party. As a cunning plan to disguise the smell of cheap cider, our drunken brains convinced us to eat a tube of toothpaste. Each.

So instead of just looking drunk, we ended up looking like we were suffering the advanced symptoms of rabies.

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2768 on: 21 September, 2018, 12:37:48 pm »
*tries very hard not to laugh out loud in a room where I am supposed to be being quiet*

Guy

  • Retired
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2769 on: 21 September, 2018, 12:45:31 pm »
*tries very hard not to laugh out loud in a room where I am supposed to be being quiet*

Ditto, but I failed, and people are looking at me  :-[
"The Opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject"  Marcus Aurelius

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2770 on: 21 September, 2018, 12:58:08 pm »
I loathe cider, the smell makes me sick, but I like Southern Comfort :)

Fortunately I can smirk as much as I like, unlike later.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2771 on: 21 September, 2018, 01:02:40 pm »
See also Southern Comfort.
For an instant, I thought this was the baby names thread.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2772 on: 21 September, 2018, 01:09:14 pm »
I always loved traditional British cider, and was very disappointed on coming to France to find that French cider is peely-wally sparkling stuff like Babycham.  But a few years ago, cycling down towards a wall-enclosed farmyard a few k from here, I was delighted to smell the smell of good strong UK-style cider, and reckoned they must be pressing & fermenting à l'anglaise.  As I passed the gate and glanced in, I saw that they were moving the manure-heap.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

TheLurker

  • Goes well with magnolia.
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2773 on: 21 September, 2018, 08:19:53 pm »
That at least some railway bridges still have their distance/position from $whereever measured in miles and chains and that even when brand new distance markers are affixed they still display the distance in miles and chains.
Τα πιο όμορφα ταξίδια γίνονται με τις δικές μας δυνάμεις - Φίλοι του Ποδήλατου

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: what I have learned today.
« Reply #2774 on: 21 September, 2018, 09:14:52 pm »
it's almost 30 years ago now that I was applying to universities, I can't remember is much attention was paid to GCSEs or that was just a given, considering you were already studying subjects relevant to desired degree at A level.

GCSE maths and Chemistry being clearly required at GCSE to do those at A-level and form the basis of university offers for example - English admittedly less directly linked, but nonetheless useful for report writing etc

In the early 80s you needed Maths and English O'level or GCSE equivalent for university or you weren't considered to have matriculated, didn't matter what the course was. This was certainly still the case in the late 80s as it caused my sister no end of trouble trying to get into uni as a mature student - she just doesn't get maths and had retry at night school several times. She has a masters now mind and they keep asking her to do a doctorate.
I needed B in English language and a C in a foreign language for my chemical engineering course in 81.

E in chemistry and E in maths was my offer from Bath.  I think they basically recognised me as their kind of person
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens