Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Freewheeling => Topic started by: The Family Cyclist on 16 January, 2019, 01:47:10 pm
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Just pondering really. On a website that does utility and cargo bikes and saw a chariot cycle trailer and was near on £800. My Burley Bee was over £200 when I got it 7 years ago
I was wondering with this and baikfiets and similar all seemingly £1000 up are people going to see these prices and think actually I could get a car for that. I've had several cars I've bought,taxes and insured for my less.
If we are serious about getting people out of cars and into bikes would lower costs help. I guess it's a big chicken and egg with supply and demand
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A special incentive for cargo bikes, something beyond C2W is overdue... I cycle in front of a school and at rush hour the road is virtually blocked.
I don't think that someone considering a car worth a grand is the same person that would buy a cargo bike... two different demographics... we are talking educated middle class... if they buy a car, it's either an SUV or an hybrid, depending on where they stand on the pollution fence. They are not however folks buying a 05 plated Vauxhall corsa.
Besides, owning a car costs a lot more than owning a bike, any bike. I have about 600 pounds per year of fixed costs... just to keep the car in the garage
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A special incentive for cargo bikes, something beyond C2W is overdue... I cycle in front of a school and at rush hour the road is virtually blocked.
The electric vehicle subsidy applying to e-bikes would be a good start. I'd be in favour of zero-rating the VAT on public health grounds, but I don't think that's possible unless we leave the EU, in which case none of us will be able to afford bikes anyway.
I don't think that someone considering a car worth a grand is the same person that would buy a cargo bike... two different demographics... we are talking educated middle class... if they buy a car, it's either an SUV or an hybrid, depending on where they stand on the pollution fence. They are not however folks buying a 05 plated Vauxhall corsa.
I dunno, the educated middle class have form for bangernomics. It's easy to run a car into the ground if you've got enough in the bank to go out and buy a new one tomorrow. Mostly seems to depend on whether your particular flavour of middle class places importance on cars as status symbols, or is sufficiently secure in its identity not to have to care.
Besides, owning a car costs a lot more than owning a bike, any bike. I have about 600 pounds per year of fixed costs... just to keep the car in the garage
The real battle is the perception that bikes cost a hundred quid or so, and that you have to pay people a reasonable hourly rate to repair them. And that you won't die utterly to DETH if you ride one on the road to wherever it is you need to get to, of course.
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Let's face it, most cars travel a big portion of their miles with 1 person in them. A sensible rack and some panniers and you can carry most of what you need. How much does a child carrier to go on the rack cost (when they are too big, they can ride their own)? That's the majority of utility cycling. That also seems to be what you see in pictures of Copenhagen or Amsterdam or wherever.
I think that when you start talking about esoteric cycles that allow you to do stuff that normally you can't do on a bike, you end up putting people off. So the electric bikes that mean you can commute 20 miles each way, or the bakfiets that means you can carry 3 kids or really big objects, or whatever other circumstances you want (tandems?) - these are specialist requirements needing specialist vehicles. Most people don't need one, don't have anywhere to put one, and wouldn't use it if it were free.
IMO, facilities that make utility cycling easy and low risk are the beginning, middle, and end of utility cycling. As the superhighways show - build it and they will come! ;)
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IMO, facilities that make utility cycling easy and low risk are the beginning, middle, and end of utility cycling. As the superhighways show - build it and they will come! ;)
For those who can ride any old BSO, I agree. Some people will need or prefer a more specialised cycle, or require policy changes (everything from petty school rules to DWP sanctions culture) to enable them to cycle. But they also need the infra, just like everyone else.
Normalise cycling, and specialised cycling just becomes another part of normal.
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Infrastructure is certainly important. Regarding the bikes I was in decathlon last week and have a very practical range of bikes for going to the shops or school run for not much. Yes more then £100 quid but certainly affordable.
However my Facebook for example the adverts for utility or cargo bikes are all high end. I think a value electric bike would be a brilliant thing for the non sporting riders
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Just had a look. The B Twin elops 520 looks the perfect bike for use as a transport vehicle.
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And don't forget elephant bikes
Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
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However my Facebook for example the adverts for utility or cargo bikes are all high end.
I think that's simply because Facebook has worked out that you're a cycling enthusiast.
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Normalise cycling, and specialised cycling just becomes another part of normal.
Exactly. And specialist cycles suddenly become a motability thing, or a "hardworking families" thing, rather than some luxury treehugger green premium thing. Plus, if it's safe you can get kids out of bakfiets and onto their own bikes much earlier.
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So the million dollar question is how do you normalise cycling?
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So the million dollar question is how do you normalise cycling?
Take the cars away.
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I posted a photo taken outside a nursery in central Tokyo on another thread -
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/lxFVLrNOssA6WkzjRSq70QbIyMRHELQpnLMZmVz_KsZbb9kh9NIY1CBkAJZI00FunBT0ynXfwa_uGUNvJHeaQcD2I5ThpDFjWdMEi7irIvZy-dQuXHw8VAumzH0jxILN4Z2ZYYceQbtuTHNqJZE28fY1lxodbC4UjV8EdwnvmYUs7kzP5RRnQ1Vh9r24NhQmIKhIa9qeLEhd-_P7vRG9K2_bIxPWJZUMwzzb5lK4gpoXoXkxY_f7IgmyzC04NorvhNXnkyUMwqijAUIBci2ndDTIwJRzW5_lEFl3L-6tNQlC5BogQnc-HK0iNFrEeCoUHi57q6H8mK97osRR2WLuW0NOrykoHI7_aTlqQGBRzieUgd0rt0zdLN9u3iLBBw0pPlhGcVK1UNls252rwkBmmTJIrvQaOELDXAh7xHMrmsmSMKSRKTmgEIbW3pa4K7kxfNKGB_GuGWXcFeg5eOXmnpTCN1fC00Et6sf3xJpSjdgKevMenmX-_YU5fXz89t-5Q4TS-n2L1kzT9q44BW2Gbc2d8wvtBmaMXshVZPEf5oq_N0sXdtCRTnqpJfTCt8SYYpqnRYRqU0OoMMxRZ0snf3LpcKwB9KOu2qHhoCYC-krG1O5gv5FIeu35VGcMJuc-gsMIlRX13PNihHShhZM4Lpol=w1044-h783-no)
That's a row of e-bikes. The streets are full of 'em over there. See the child seats?
Car ownership in Japan is almost exactly the same as in the UK. One big difference I see is that there are bugger-all places to park a car, compared to here. You won't use a car if there's nowhere to park it at the other end, & parking on the street will get it towed away pronto. And if your friendly local railway station has this (yes, it is a three storey covered bike park, & that's nothing out of the ordinary) -
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-huPIYskEVOk/T6kP45zcn_I/AAAAAAAADLI/w3t0hIdNV7g/s1600/cnb+2012+japan+471.JPG)
Why not cycle to the station & get the train?
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So the million dollar question is how do you normalise cycling?
Quit pissing around with plastic hat evangelism, victim blaming and associated educational failings.
Educate drivers that cycling is normal, that cyclists have a right to the use the road. Then make cycling easier than driving.
Oh, and while all that is going on, fix the infrastructure. That means segregated cycle lanes, none of this magic paint shit. Actual proper infrastructure. Proper bike parking, not round the back by the bins, but out front where people can see them (harder to take an angle grinder to a bike lock in the middle of a crowded street). Pay people about 19c per km to cycle to work...
I wonder where has rolled out policies like the above...
J
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Raise fuel duty to kill the English fantasy that motoring everywhere is not sustainable.
We used to have mass cycling in this country. This was replaced with mass motoring which has been subsidised by the state to the exclusion of being able to safely cycle from A to B. It can't go on, the sacred cow of gas guzzling, space sucking transport has to be slain.
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Raise fuel duty to kill the English fantasy that motoring everywhere is not sustainable.
We used to have mass cycling in this country. This was replaced with mass motoring which has been subsidised by the state to the exclusion of being able to safely cycle from A to B. It can't go on, the sacred cow of gas guzzling, space sucking transport has to be slain.
You'd think that, but in .nl fuel is cheaper than .uk...
Increase the fuel duty and you make it harder for the rural poor who have limited access to pubic transport and where distances are too great for most muggles to cycle. Why use a stick when you can use the carrot. Reward people who cycle to work (see 19c per km incentive), make bikes VAT exempt. etc...
J
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Raise fuel duty to kill the English fantasy that motoring everywhere is not sustainable.
We used to have mass cycling in this country. This was replaced with mass motoring which has been subsidised by the state to the exclusion of being able to safely cycle from A to B. It can't go on, the sacred cow of gas guzzling, space sucking transport has to be slain.
You'd think that, but in .nl fuel is cheaper than .uk...
Increase the fuel duty and you make it harder for the rural poor who have limited access to pubic transport and where distances are too great for most muggles to cycle. Why use a stick when you can use the carrot. Reward people who cycle to work (see 19c per km incentive), make bikes VAT exempt. etc...
J
Powered by the pelvic thrust?
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access to pubic transport
Powered by the pelvic thrust?
Fscking autocarrot.
J
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access to pubic transport
Powered by the pelvic thrust?
Fscking autocarrot.
J
A fucking pubic autocarrot? Hmm, I think this has gone all NSFW!
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access to pubic transport
Powered by the pelvic thrust?
Fscking autocarrot.
J
A fucking pubic autocarrot? Hmm, I think this has gone all NSFW!
Autocorrect... argh!
J
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You'd think that, but in .nl fuel is cheaper than .uk...
Increase the fuel duty and you make it harder for the rural poor who have limited access to pubic transport and where distances are too great for most muggles to cycle. Why use a stick when you can use the carrot. Reward people who cycle to work (see 19c per km incentive), make bikes VAT exempt. etc...
J
Tax private parking spaces, say at offices, get rid of as much free parking as you can. Basically you want to make it such that public transport (spell cheque this time), cycling, and walking, are the most cost effective, and fastest forms of travel. The revenue from taxing the parking spaces, you can use to subsidise the buses and trains. And while you're at it, nationalise the public transport, stop pissing around trying to run it as a profit, and run it as a service, same way we do roads. If you want someone to take the bus into town rather than the car, they need to be able to get the bus home again. At midnight. Cycle parking at bus stops, esp in rural areas is also a good idea.
I realise none of this will happen, but there's a reason I'm a quixotic geek...
J
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The roads are pretty private, really. The various local authorities and highways England etc contract out upgrades and maintenance. Yes they're free at point of use but the private sector is enormously involved in their maintenance.
In some parts of the land, maintenance of the network is nearly totally handed over to contractors to look after https://news.eastsussex.gov.uk/2015/12/15/green-light-for-new-300m-highways-contract/
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The revenue from taxing the parking spaces, you can use to subsidise the buses and trains. And while you're at it, nationalise the public transport, stop pissing around trying to run it as a profit, and run it as a service, same way we do roads. If you want someone to take the bus into town rather than the car, they need to be able to get the bus home again. At midnight.
Indeedy. The UK has already seen what happens if you try to run public transport using the "Free market" - Beeching Closures!
We need the opposite - as you say, buses that run not just at 0830 and 1600; but also bus services already running when people move into new build estates. Otherwise they have to buy a car - who can blame them??
(How the hell the UK is building new estates without safe walking/cycling provision is another mind-numbing discussion that has already come up somewhere on here.)
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The irony is that they also build new estates without sufficient car parking provision, even though they really know no-one will use the infrequent buses. Sometimes they chuck in a couple of bike stands* at the request of the planners to compensate for the lack of even one-car per-dwelling parking (common for blocks of flats). The bike stand remains empty and unused and the cars go on the pavement.
* would you leave any half decent bike parked outside all night in a shared area? It would get stolen or stamped on.
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access to pubic transport
Powered by the pelvic thrust?
Fscking autocarrot.
J
A fucking pubic autocarrot? Hmm, I think this has gone all NSFW!
Autocorrect... argh!
J
We understood. :D
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A while back I read this book: http://eprints.uwe.ac.uk/25808/ partly because I vaguely know the author, partly because I happened to spot it on the library shelf(!) but also for interest. He cites a couple of studies showing that restricting access to parking in residential areas is the most effective way of reducing car use (in urban areas) because it dissuades people from owning cars in the first place. Once people have cars they will tend to use them in preference to other forms of transport simply because it's there.
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Cars will die... it's a very slow process, but it is happening.
Car sales have been trending down for quite some time... add the fact that fewer teenagers bother with a driving license these days and you see that in 10 years time there will be much fewer of them on the roads.
I would have got rid of our car years ago, but my wife still sees the car as an essential (grew up in Canada, where you drive two blocks to see your neighbour).
We probably use it once or twice a week... typically to head somewhere and then go for a walk or to head somewhere for breakfast at the weekend. We also use it to go on holiday, as an alternative to flying...
I can't see a cargo bike being of much use for us, as we walk to the supermarket and shops. The car is a rather expensive to maintain luxury in our case, but at least it's one of those little cars that does 60 mpg and pays no road tax
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Tax private parking spaces, say at offices, get rid of as much free parking as you can. Basically you want to make it such that public transport (spell cheque this time), cycling, and walking, are the most cost effective, and fastest forms of travel. The revenue from taxing the parking spaces, you can use to subsidise the buses and trains. [...]
I realise none of this will happen, but there's a reason I'm a quixotic geek...
It's exactly what they've done in Nottingham. They've now got a tram network, electric buses, cycle infrastructure (some of which is actually worth using), park&rides and a reduction in congestion that makes it easier to drive into the city centre and pay a fortune for parking if you really want to. Not up to Dutch standards (it's still a city full of motor vehicles), but it's a decent start.
It's politically viable because a tax on employers providing commuter parking is abstract enough that it doesn't feel like a 'war on the motorist', and people see the investment in public transport.
Meanwhile in Birmingham, they're trying to fit more cars in, while desperately trying not to impose a clean air zone.
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The irony is that they also build new estates without sufficient car parking provision, even though they really know no-one will use the infrequent buses. Sometimes they chuck in a couple of bike stands* at the request of the planners to compensate for the lack of even one-car per-dwelling parking (common for blocks of flats). The bike stand remains empty and unused and the cars go on the pavement.
In some parts of the country, residents of new developments aren't eligible for residents' parking permits, which solves this problem.
(Though I know in other parts of the country, the very idea of residents parking permits is full on war-on-the-motorist, even while they complain about lack of parking in their neighbourhood...)
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So the million dollar question is how do you normalise cycling?
Take the cars away.
So we wake up tomorrow under Queen Kim the First. Squads of Yacfers roam the country on narwhals rounding up all the cars for melting down into bikes, ploughshares and frickin lasers. Motorists of the world do not rise up in arms because everyone loves a narwhal and you've given them all laughing gas. And free CAEK. Some people will start cycling because you've removed their fear of traffic, their fear of being laughed at and their convenience crutch, and you've given them the need to look afresh at how they get to wherever they're getting (as well as at where they're getting to). But I reckon most will probably be walking or on the bus, and some will simply change or abandon their journeys. All of which are still positive results (along with the cleaner air, the public space, the reduced noise, the increased micro-mobility, and of course the CAEK).
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To be fair, that stuff would have to wait until at least Monday. Rounding up a sufficiency of narwhals isn't something you can rush, and I'll be busy LARTing the current parliament...
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David Attenborough to be Secretary of State for Narwhals, of course. (He's a non-driver, by the way.)
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Let's hope we can do this before the Japanese eat all our narwhales!
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Meanwhile in Birmingham, they're trying to fit more cars in, while desperately trying not to impose a clean air zone.
True, public transport is shocking. Solihull and Coventry are separated by 12 miles of generic "Midlands" with only one bus service every hour to connect them for 6 days a week (last bus around 6:30 PM).
It just defies belief that public transport can be so poor.
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Meanwhile in Birmingham, they're trying to fit more cars in, while desperately trying not to impose a clean air zone.
True, public transport is shocking. Solihull and Coventry are separated by 12 miles of generic "Midlands" with only one bus service every hour to connect them for 6 days a week (last bus around 6:30 PM).
It just defies belief that public transport can be so poor.
Just took a bus from Utrecht University to Utrecht Centraal. I let the first bus that arrived go, it was full, not even space for any more standing passengers. I then let the next one, as that was packed too. At this point I was getting cold and impatient. I'd already had to wait 3 whole minutes for these two buses, and the prospect of waiting another 1 minute for the next, or 2 minutes for the one after, meh. I got on the 3rd bus. Total wait: 4 minutes. These buses are extra long double bendy buses. And full. Running along side the bus route is a separated bi directional bike path, wide enough to drive a fire engine down. Crossing this fietspad was hard, the traffic a constant stream..
My bus journey took 15 mins, and cost me €1.76.
J
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Cars will die... it's a very slow process, but it is happening.
Car sales have been trending down for quite some time... add the fact that fewer teenagers bother with a driving license these days and you see that in 10 years time there will be much fewer of them on the roads.
I would have got rid of our car years ago, but my wife still sees the car as an essential (grew up in Canada, where you drive two blocks to see your neighbour).
We probably use it once or twice a week... typically to head somewhere and then go for a walk or to head somewhere for breakfast at the weekend. We also use it to go on holiday, as an alternative to flying...
I can't see a cargo bike being of much use for us, as we walk to the supermarket and shops. The car is a rather expensive to maintain luxury in our case, but at least it's one of those little cars that does 60 mpg and pays no road tax
Car ownership might be slowly dying, but cars are not. In fact there are ever more of them all around the world. The downward trend in sales is due to various factors, may of which will reverse at some point (the economic ones) but coincides with the growth of car clubs and car sharing. Plus, cars are now mainstream in parts of the world where they were still a minor thing only a decade or two ago. And in the next decade or electric cars will make the fuel costs a comparatively minor thing. They might become cleaner and not be sitting in front of our houses, they might even be driving themselves, but we'll still be using lots of cars.