Author Topic: Garmin Edge 800  (Read 20630 times)

Re: Garmin Edge 800
« Reply #25 on: 06 February, 2012, 10:36:41 pm »
Sorry, I wasn't sure whether you had direct experience of the 800 and knew of a reason why it needs Mapsource. Slight misunderstanding.

But whilst we are talking about Mapsource, then yes, there is very little point using a cycling GPS unless you are going to plot some sort of route/track to follow. There are plenty of ways of going this and in my moderately extensive experience Mapsource is one of the worst ways of doing it. It's got a horrid interface and is slow and clunky to use in comparison to what else is out there.

10 years ago, I used Memory Map. The only drawback to this was expense, and the communication between programme and GPS unit didn't always go to plan, but I did manage an End to end plotting routes on it and using a non-mapping GPS.

These days the free Googlemaps web based applications are just leagues away from Mapsource, in terms of ease of use. The only issue I have with something like bikehike.co.uk is that it is web based and there have been outtages.



frankly frankie

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Re: Garmin Edge 800
« Reply #26 on: 07 February, 2012, 10:42:17 am »
one attempt at using Mapsource was all it took for me to look for something better.

All the desktop map programs are somewhere on the line between 'weird' and 'extremely weird'. 

It's a cartographer thing, I think.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Feanor

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Re: Garmin Edge 800
« Reply #27 on: 07 February, 2012, 11:07:43 am »
Not wishing to be stuck in the past, I was playing with BikeHike earlier, to see how the GPS output works.

The UI is very nice, and putting the route in was much easier than mapsource.
So I whacked in a 45-mile route I know fairly well.
I then had it output a couple of GPX files for my inspection.
I loaded each into MapSource, and also manually inspected them.

The GPX 'track' contained 722 trackpoints, which is fair enough, a track being essentially a bread-crumb trail.   This looked sensible enough in Mapsource, and showed up as a single 'track' which would download onto the device fine.

However, the GPX 'route' ALSO contained the same 722 points, this time specified as route-points.
Loaded into mapsource, this was just a mess of waypoint flags.
And that's how it will look on your device too.
"Oh, lookee, we're navigating to the next waypoint which is 2m ahead!"

Basically, 722 waypoints on a 'route' is just silly.   That's just not an intelligent way to specify a 'route'.   A 'route' should contain waypoints only where necessary to avoid any possible ambiguity of route.  Yes, there's an option to reduce the number of points, but you have no idea what number to specify, or how it chooses which ones to drop.   It needs to go through the route inteligently and remove ALL 'redundant' waypoints.  I reckon if I were to hand-code the route in Mapsource ( which is what I do at the moment ), I'd probably have used around 20 waypoints or less.

dasmoth

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Re: Garmin Edge 800
« Reply #28 on: 07 February, 2012, 11:11:06 am »
Basically, 722 waypoints on a 'route' is just silly.   That's just not an intelligent way to specify a 'route'.   A 'route' should contain waypoints only where necessary to avoid any possible ambiguity of route.  Yes, there's an option to reduce the number of points, but you have no idea what number to specify, or how it chooses which ones to drop.   It needs to go through the route inteligently and remove ALL 'redundant' waypoints.  I reckon if I were to hand-code the route in Mapsource ( which is what I do at the moment ), I'd probably have used around 20 waypoints or less.

Try clicking "Options" then put a low number into the "Trackpoint Reduction" field.  Yes, it's a couple of clicks that should arguably not be needed, but it does work pretty well.
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Feanor

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Re: Garmin Edge 800
« Reply #29 on: 07 February, 2012, 11:19:46 am »
I'm playing with it at the  moment.
I'm trying to establish how it decides which points to keep, and which to cut.
And also, how to choose a sensible 'number'.

I guess you start high and succesive-approximate your way down, checking the route each time to be sure there are no ambiguities.

ETA: Yes, whatever algorithm it uses, it looks like it leaves sensible enough waypoints so that the machine will navigate the correct route.  I dropped to 50, then 20 and checked the map each time, considering what routing options the machine would have between each waypoint, and if any potential ambiguity was created.   At 20 points, the ambigiuties were such that no sensible routing software would have taken anything other than the intended path. The wpts are not where I'd have put them manually, but that's not important.

In a more inter-conected road system ( like Down Sarf ) it will probably be necessary to retain more points because there will be more route ambiguities between distant waypoints.   Up here, due to the lack of inter-connectivity, there's often 'only the 1 road', so I can get away with fewer waypoints.

I'll use this web-site a bit now, but I'll always pull up the resulting route GPX in mapsource before sending it to the device, just so I can check what route the Garmin algorithm will choose between the remaining points.

Yes, I think I'm a convert.

Re: Garmin Edge 800
« Reply #30 on: 07 February, 2012, 11:27:45 am »
It doesn't really matter if it actually works, and......it does.

Bikehike also has the option of downloading the files as gpxx, specifically for the 705, and I assume, the 800, which deftly overcomes the waypoint limit issues of those units.

What happens on the road is incredibly easy to follow. The GPS is not bleeping every 2 metres, but only on turns (and the odd bend in the road that it interprets as a turn). In effect it functions almost identically to my TomTom car satnav, which is exactly what I want.

As you say, the UI is nice, and quick to use. I can plot the 600k of the Bryan Chapman in 10 minutes, and the unit will navigate me round without missing a beat.

The only issues I've had with the mapping stuff is because of occasional inaccuracies on Googlemaps.

frankly frankie

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Re: Garmin Edge 800
« Reply #31 on: 08 February, 2012, 05:45:52 pm »
Not wishing to be stuck in the past, I was playing with BikeHike earlier, to see how the GPS output works.
...
The GPX 'track' contained 722 trackpoints, which is fair enough,
...
Basically, 722 waypoints on a 'route' is just silly.

The irony is, that you are only offered the option to 'Download Route' from the planner page. 

At 20 points, the ambigiuties were such that no sensible routing software would have taken anything other than the intended path.

That's not really surprising, on a 45-mile route.  I think most people would want autorouting to work with points spaced no less than 5 miles apart on average.

The online 'Help' page on BikeHike is really informative BTW - a few wrinkles you might not otherwise find, like how to 'lock' a section of route against recalculation whilst dragging another section.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Feanor

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Re: Garmin Edge 800
« Reply #32 on: 08 February, 2012, 06:00:38 pm »

The irony is, that you are only offered the option to 'Download Route' from the planner page. 


Yebbut.... although it *says* that, it doesn't really mean it.   It opens a pop-up where you can choose; it's really quite flexible.

Re: Garmin Edge 800
« Reply #33 on: 08 February, 2012, 06:45:52 pm »
I think, really, if you want to critique a website designed to plot routes that you will then ride, you actually have to go and ride them.

If you still have issues after that we will be on hand to offer advice as to what you did wrong

 ;D

frankly frankie

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Re: Garmin Edge 800
« Reply #34 on: 09 February, 2012, 11:36:10 am »
The irony is, that you are only offered the option to 'Download Route' from the planner page. 
Yebbut.... although it *says* that, it doesn't really mean it.   It opens a pop-up where you can choose; it's really quite flexible.

Yebbut - if you're looking for a Track download and you're averse to clicking on things 'just to see what happens' - then you may never find it.  :-\

(It does mean it - but it means 'route' in the generic sense and not 'Route' in the GPS-specific sense.)
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bikey-mikey

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Re: Garmin Edge 800
« Reply #35 on: 06 March, 2012, 01:12:20 pm »
OK - I have an 800 with the 1:50,000 GB Discoverer map. I also have a 705 with UK Navigator.

Both are mounted on my bars, so I have lots of info and route data available. 

I would say that the Discover map is much harder to see properly and I find myself looking at the 705 in complex city / roundabout situations. Problem may go away as I get used to it, however I doubt it.

The main issue is that the Discover map is more or less a enormous "IMAGE" of the underlying map, and the colours are fixed, and include reds greens pinks blues and just about any shade of them. Also as you scale up or down the actual size of the roads on screen change. Once you get to a 50 metre scale the image is blurred, so I use the 120 metre scale, where the route shown is approx a quarter of the road size.

Also you don't get a clear pink line to follow. It a smaller varicoloured line and you can't change the colour, it being set by the external routing software such as bikeroutetoaster or bike hike.

So I have bought a downloadable version of Navigator to go on internal memory but not the full Europe cos not enough space. Having download trouble. It will report back when sorted.
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Re: Garmin Edge 800
« Reply #36 on: 06 March, 2012, 02:34:12 pm »
Also you don't get a clear pink line to follow. It a smaller varicoloured line and you can't change the colour, it being set by the external routing software such as bikeroutetoaster or bike hike.
It's not being set by the external routing software, as there's nothing in the GPX/TCX files defining that detail. Therefore it's being set by the 800 and either you can't change it or you haven't found the option yet! I'm not sure which as I haven't got an 800.

So I have bought a downloadable version of Navigator to go on internal memory but not the full Europe cos not enough space. Having download trouble. It will report back when sorted.
A little late now, as you've bought the City Nav NT, but you could've downloaded a small subset of OSM mapping and used that as a supplementary mapping layer in the 800's memory for zero cost. You can build your own Garmin compatible OSM map from individual "tiles" at the site: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl/

Shaun

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Re: Garmin Edge 800
« Reply #37 on: 06 March, 2012, 04:58:22 pm »
Also you don't get a clear pink line to follow. It a smaller varicoloured line and you can't change the colour, it being set by the external routing software such as bikeroutetoaster or bike hike.
It's not being set by the external routing software, as there's nothing in the GPX/TCX files defining that detail. Therefore it's being set by the 800 and either you can't change it or you haven't found the option yet! I'm not sure which as I haven't got an 800.

So I have bought a downloadable version of Navigator to go on internal memory but not the full Europe cos not enough space. Having download trouble. It will report back when sorted.
A little late now, as you've bought the City Nav NT, but you could've downloaded a small subset of OSM mapping and used that as a supplementary mapping layer in the 800's memory for zero cost. You can build your own Garmin compatible OSM map from individual "tiles" at the site: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl/

Shaun

Thanks Shaun

As regards setting the route colour choice, you can change the 'map route colour', which I have done, but it only affects the overview initial map, not the 'actually navigating at the time' colour.

It may not be that late, since I have not actually downloaded the Navigator mapping yet, and it was their site that was malfunctioning, according to their email, which gave me a huge, technical explanation of how to get the download, and I suppose I might just go back and say "No ta, gimme me £33-33 back please"

I'll have a go at the OSM route!!   :)
I’ve decided I’m not old. I’m 25 .....plus shipping and handling.

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Re: Garmin Edge 800
« Reply #38 on: 06 March, 2012, 05:56:33 pm »
You aren't making it sound very appealing B-M! 

How much more useful is it than the 705?

bikey-mikey

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Re: Garmin Edge 800
« Reply #39 on: 06 March, 2012, 07:06:58 pm »
Oh don't get me wrong - the 800 is very much better than the 705

  • you can get very many more screens of information
  • the screen is bigger but the unit is smaller and lighter
  • you can program in how you want each page to look
  • the font sizes and layouts are better / easier to read
  • e.g. a climbing screen - metres per hour ascent, gradient, heartrate, total ascent, elevation - just the thing on your way up a big one
  • there is one with just distance speed and time, in huge fonts
  • if you have height data in your course a screen shows not just what you have done, but what is coming up, so you know if you have to pace yourself, and if flagging and it says you are near the top, it is much easier to do that last bit, even though you can't really see the top
  • that also works when planning descents - shall I stay on the hoods, or if it is a long one go down on the drops?  Simples..
  • specifically of use in audax - you have a separate screen with lap information - easy to lap at each route sheet change and see how far to the next instruction you are - I know the garmin ought to make the RS redundant, but it is nice to see the clues on the RS appear on the garmin and vice versa
  • it has a built in thermometer, (the 705 doesn't) - I'm better able to judge what to wear, now I know the temps I have been riding in
  • courses load up in a fraction of the time it takes on the 705
  • changing screens is just a swipe of your gloved hand away
  • it attaches and detaches by turning it either clockwise or anticlockwise - no fiddling about for the release tab half hidden underneath it (my 705 tab is just about to break off)

  • oh and when you start riding you get a nifty 'dopes' message which basically says "I see you are moving, but have not started the timer - DO YOU WANT TO START THE TIMER??"
  • Needless to say that has already saved me several times!!!

And I am not even using all the available programmable screens, nor using the ones tailored for power meters, which even calculate TSS - training stress score if you don't know - see 'training with a power meter' by Hunter Allen.....

No, if you can afford it, this is definitely the one to get  :)
I’ve decided I’m not old. I’m 25 .....plus shipping and handling.

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Garmin Edge 800
« Reply #40 on: 06 March, 2012, 08:27:24 pm »
What mikey said.

I love the customisable nature of the displays. I have a commuting page, an Audax page, a nav page and a stats page.

I've always got what I need a quick glance away. Much better than my old 305.

deadhead1971

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Re: Garmin Edge 800
« Reply #41 on: 15 March, 2012, 09:02:47 pm »
OK - I have an 800 with the 1:50,000 GB Discoverer map. I also have a 705 with UK Navigator.

The main issue is that the Discover map is more or less a enormous "IMAGE" of the underlying map, and the colours are fixed, and include reds greens pinks blues and just about any shade of them. Also as you scale up or down the actual size of the roads on screen change. Once you get to a 50 metre scale the image is blurred, so I use the 120 metre scale, where the route shown is approx a quarter of the road size.

There are some good screenshot examples of this, taken on an Edge 800 here:

http://www.scarletfire.co.uk/2012/03/maps-comparison-city-navigator-and-os-discoverer/

It's clear to see the limitations of the Discoverer maps beyond a certain zoom threshold.
Alan
www.scarletfire.co.uk
(lots of cycling geekery: Garmin/mapping/strava etc)

bikey-mikey

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Re: Garmin Edge 800
« Reply #42 on: 16 March, 2012, 01:37:50 am »
Garmin have now got their download site working and I have a copy of UK navigator now..

I can use either as I wish, and though the UK Nav is better (IMHO) for the more complex situations, I still switch over to the Discoverer when out in the sticks, since it is fun to count the contours as you cross them....
I’ve decided I’m not old. I’m 25 .....plus shipping and handling.

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Re: Garmin Edge 800
« Reply #43 on: 23 March, 2012, 06:17:34 pm »
If you get the choice to get maps on DVD rather than SD, do that.

As I understand it, maps supplied on SD are locked to that SD alone, which is a pain. Also - there have been (may now be solved) issues (as in, it wasn't possible) with transferring maps from SD to a PC app like BaseCamp.

It's also much easier to lose an SD card than it is a DVD.

I'm not sure this advice is as clear cut anymore.

You are right that you can now view SD card based maps on the computer using Basecamp (certainly City Navigator, not sure about the OS mapset). The lack of this facility was the main reason people often quoted it was better to get the DVD over the SD card. The problem with the DVD is that it's tied to one GPS device. The SD card isn't. So when you replace your GPS, your DVD map investment(s) become coasters.

You don't need to go on using the DVD once you've made your file(s) for the SD card, which work in any compatible GPS*.  So the having the DVD is liking having an SD card as well as the DVD.  At least all this applies for the 605/705.  Doesn't it apply to the 800 too?

* With the DVD software, you create a map file on a memory card in the GPS, then you can copy the file from the card to your hard drive and keep it to use on future devices or share it with other users (illegally).
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Re: Garmin Edge 800
« Reply #44 on: 23 March, 2012, 07:08:39 pm »
No, that's not how it works.

If you buy the maps on disk, then you need to un-lock them in mapsource.
The 25-digit unlock code is specific to a single handset.

So the IMG mapsource creates for output onto a handset or SD card is locked, and will only un-lock on the specific handset.
Copying the IMG file to another handset, or moving it on an SD card to another handset will not work, unless you use SPESHUL TOOLS to fully unlock the IMG.

It's also possible to use other SPESHUL TOOLS to fully unlock the original mapset in mapsource ( they will show as 'unlockable' ), in which case the mapsource output IMG files will not be locked to a specific handset, and then can be used on multiple devices.

Biggsy

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Re: Garmin Edge 800
« Reply #45 on: 23 March, 2012, 08:03:50 pm »
:-[ I should have known it was too good to be true.  Sorry, I was blissfully unaware.
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Re: Garmin Edge 800
« Reply #46 on: 29 March, 2012, 05:18:24 pm »
Right.  I've taken delivery of my Edge 800, and have gone through a re-education with it!
The terminology is all different because it uses the 'FIT' data model internally.
Here's my initial findings, for anyone who needs to convert their understanding from oldspeak ( GPX, Waypoints, Routes, Tracks ) to newspeak.

FIT files are binary data files for holding waypoints, tracks, courses etc.
The file format is documented here, if you accept the License Agreement:
http://thisisant.com/pages/ant/fit-license

Maps are sent to the unit in the normal way:
MapSource will generate a gmapsupp.img file in the garmin folder of either the device or the SD card.
Not much point using the device internal memory, there's only 80MB free out of 105MB.
An SD card is pretty much mandatory.
I've not explored whether the device supports multiple or arbitrary img filenames.

What about waypoints, routes and tracks?

Under the 'garmin' folder, there's a bunch of other folders.
In particular, there's:
NewFiles;
Locations;
Courses;
Activities.

Inside each of these, you'll find some *.fit files.

Here's my current observation of how it works:

Waypoints
=======
Waypoints are called 'Locations' in fit-speak.
When you send User Waypoints to the device from Mapsource, it creates a temp.GPX file in the NewFiles directory.
This is a normal GPX, and upon inspection, contains the waypoints as expected.
When you disconnect from the PC, and boot the device, it gropes the NewFiles directory, finds the GPX, and imports the waypoints into it's native 'Locations.fit' file in the Locations directory.   It then deletes the GPX.
Now, these waypoints ( or 'Locations' ) can be navigated to using the 'Where To' icon, as usual.

Routes
=====
Routes are called 'Courses' in fit-speak.

When you send Routes to the device from Mapsource, it also creates a temp.GPX file in the NewFiles directory.
This is a normal GPX, and upon inspection, contains the routes as expected.
When you disconnect from the PC, and boot the device, it gropes the NewFiles directory, finds the GPX, and imports the routes into a corresponding 'routename.fit' file in the Courses directory.   It then deletes the GPX.
To navigate a Route ( or 'Course' ), it's not done from the 'Where To' icon, but rather the 'Courses' icon.

Tracks
=====
If you send a Track to the device from mapsource, it is ALSO converted to a 'Course', and can be navigated in the same manner.

So both Routes and Tracks basically behave the same once sent to the Edge 800.
When you select the 'Courses' icon, you see a list of all the Courses in the device ( which may have started as either Routes or Tracks ), and once you select one, there's a spanner icon where you can select things like 'Always display on map', so it can be like a traditional track: just displayed, but not being actually navigated. You can then also navigate a different Course.

Track logging
=========
When you start a ride, you hit the 'start' button ( you will be reminded! ), and it begins recording an 'Activity'.
This is basically a glorified track log.
Whan you hit 'stop', it stops recording.
If you look in the 'History' icon, you will see 'Current Activity' there.
If you 'Start' again, it will continue to accumulate in the Current Activity.
If you press Reset, it will store the Current Activity with a time-and-date stamp, and the next Start will start a fresh 'Current Activity'.
These are stored as 'time-date.fit' files in the Activities directory.

How to use these stored tracklogs?
There is a 'trackback', which you can use on the 'Current Activity'.
But there's no simple way to bring up a previous track-log for display.
What you can do is go to 'Courses', and 'Create a New Course'.
This allows you to import a time-date.fit Activity log ( track! )as a Course.
You can then either navigate it, or simply set it to display on the screen.

That's as far as I've got with it thus far...
I'm planning on doing a commute tomorrow, and I'll prepare a route course tonight and see how it works in real life.

Feanor

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Re: Garmin Edge 800
« Reply #47 on: 04 April, 2012, 01:02:50 am »
Kids having great fun with it stuffed in their pocket during ski trip!   They like to see their max speed on each run.   Today's max was over 50mph.

Re: Garmin Edge 800
« Reply #48 on: 04 April, 2012, 01:12:42 am »
This thing was reviewed on Gadget Geeks on SkyOne last night, and picked as the best cycle computer of the three they tried.  Price looks a bit damaging to my pocket to be picking up though :(

Re: Garmin Edge 800
« Reply #49 on: 30 December, 2012, 11:14:46 am »
Toying with getting an 800. I see that the unit (no maps) is available at £244 which is not too painful. I suppose. However, I am mindful that as soon as I buy one Garmin will come out with a 900. I might not want to buy the new model of course, but it would nevertheless force down the price of the 800. Bad time to buy?

One question re DVD vs SD mapping: I had previously favoured getting maps on DVD for the reasons mentioned upthread, but I am mostly converted by posts suggesting that the SD is a more flexible format to buy. Just to clarify one thing - will I be able to use my Garmin maps, located on the SD card, in Basecamp? As far as I can tell, this is possible if the contents of the SD card are copied to a removable drive.