Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?

[mattc]

Martin - I completely buy into what you are doing.

Me too!

But I still don't think the question has been answered

[Martin]

I received a DIY 400 card plus DNF'd completed 200 calendar card today; these are no longer accepted;

not sure what to do with it. 600km is quite a lot of emotional baggage to have sitting in the draw.

Please use ECE's for all extended events this year   I have a large stack of cards and even a spreadsheet for working them all out; doubt I'll even make a penny out of it after all the postage.

I expect someone one day will drive even further away from the calendar start than their house so that they can do a longer ECE to make up the distance...

and indeed already I've had an entry from someone who lives 48km from the start of a 100; they are more than happy to ride past their home on the way back and a few k up the road to make up the distance  

[mikewigley]

doubt I'll even make a penny out of it after all the postage.

So up the entry fee.  We don't expect you to do this out of your own pocket.  £3 seems to be the way to go with Perms, even if in the case of add-ons it is an extra cost on top of the Calendar fee

[Martin]

we are trying to standardise DIY card costs; I believe Danial charges £4 on paypal and £3 by post which seems reasonable; ECE's are however a one-shot "use it or lose it" so maybe should be a bit less than DIY's.

£2.50 covers the costs at the moment; but I'm using up old DNS/F SAE's from my last event. £2.50-Paypal ripoff = £2.29; by the time I subtract 3 2nd class stamps and the £1 cost of the card there's not a lot left.

yes ECE's are on top of the entry fee but still peanuts compared to the cost of petrol of driving 50km each way (assuming you are lucky enough to live that close to a calendar 200)

[mukkinese]

Can I buy a few and then use them gradually, pre-notifying you of rides as I go along, in the same way as regular perms? Or do you need to see each entry individually specified before sending out a perm card?

[Martin]

Can I buy a few and then use them gradually, pre-notifying you of rides as I go along, in the same way as regular perms? Or do you need to see each entry individually specified before sending out a perm card?

afraid so; I did see the advantage of having blank cards much like DIY's but the official line is no; unlike a perm which you can do when you like a calendar event is fixed date and always advertised months in advance so no reason why you cannot get an ECE entry off 14 days before.

also; I don't have autoroute (at least haven't got the version I have running yet) so please just send intended controls in any emails   viamichelin is never more than a couple of km out from AR.

[Cyklisten]

doubt I'll even make a penny out of it after all the postage.

So up the entry fee.  We don't expect you to do this out of your own pocket.  £3 seems to be the way to go with Perms, even if in the case of add-ons it is an extra cost on top of the Calendar fee

seconded!

[Martin]

update from John Ward; during the transition period any already entered old style DIY+Cal will be validated; however please don't just use an old DIY card and email an entry form the night before any new calendar events as you will be disappointed...

[mattc]

Apologies if this is already covered:

How about 2x100* perms from the same start point?

(I've realised there are a few organisers with several perms from/thru the same location, so there must be quite a few possibilities like this).

*could be any distance, but this seems the most likely combo. Sort-of.

[Martin]

Apologies if this is already covered:

How about 2x100* perms from the same start point?

(I've realised there are a few organisers with several perms from/thru the same location, so there must be quite a few possibilities like this).

*could be any distance, but this seems the most likely combo. Sort-of.

not sure what you mean; do you mean turn up and ride a calendar 100 event and then ride your DIY (or the organiser's) 100 perm afterwards? yes I suppose that would be covered even though it's not actually riding to the calendar event.

ECE's have to be combined with a calendar event; you cannot use them with a perm or DIY

[mattc]

ECE's have to be combined with a calendar event; you cannot use them with a perm or DIY

Ah right. I meant riding 2 perms, no calendar event!

The clue's in the name, Matt!

Shame.

[Martin]

the first ECEs have started to appear in the AUK results; they are much like existing perms in that the ECE appears at the bottom of the results for each rider with the same date as the calendar event. So far there are no 100+100 but I've just posted 3 completed cards so this should appear as 2 points for the 100 ECE. So hopefully easy to decipher for RRTY; (Mike W not sure if an ECE 200 + calendar 200 will count as 2x200's for a double RRTY; it will of course count as a 400; your call I suppose)

I've also just posted the last of my first tranche of cards so please don't send any entries at short notice ( ie less than 14 days) as I may not get any more cards for a week or so  

[Weirdy Biker]

Ah right. I meant riding 2 perms, no calendar event!

There is no reason why this shouldn't happen, if the demand is really there.  But it would need another organiser.

It is debatable if they are needed though (natch imo) given the benefit of ECE is that it allows calendar points to be "kept" (although the benefit of this is really for a handful of riders).  More importantly, it met a modest demand of DIY+calendar events.

I personally don't see the same number of riders doing DIY + permanent combinations.  Perhaps the only benefit would be that permanent rides could be extended so that one would keep the AAA points, but this will (I anticipate) be addressed by the use of gps to validate DIYs (assuming it is adopted in full).

I did think of "doing a Martin" for EPE's but for the above reasons I decided it isn't worth it.

[Chris S]

...So hopefully easy to decipher for RRTY; (Mike W not sure if an ECE 200 + calendar 200 will count as 2x200's for a double RRTY; it will of course count as a 400; your call I suppose)

Also, and no doubt this will be corrected by our esteemed Systems volunteers in due course, I notice that the website doesn't yet "see" a 200+400 as a 600. Mike Kelly for example has an SR already, but the system doesn't see it because the 600s were done as extended 200s.

[mikewigley]

not sure if an ECE 200 + calendar 200 will count as 2x200's for a double RRTY

I'm inclined to think of it as one event

[MSeries]

...So hopefully easy to decipher for RRTY; (Mike W not sure if an ECE 200 + calendar 200 will count as 2x200's for a double RRTY; it will of course count as a 400; your call I suppose)

Also, and no doubt this will be corrected by our esteemed Systems volunteers in due course, I notice that the website doesn't yet "see" a 200+400 as a 600. Mike Kelly for example has an SR already, but the system doesn't see it because the 600s were done as extended 200s.

Well it's either 200 and 400 or 600, not both. If the rules say the calendar event is logged then so will the extension and hence the 600 can't be. The rides that have been entered are the calendar event and the extension so it seems right to me that that is what is recorded in the results. You can't ride more than one event at a time and can't get points for rides not entered.

[Chris S]

...So hopefully easy to decipher for RRTY; (Mike W not sure if an ECE 200 + calendar 200 will count as 2x200's for a double RRTY; it will of course count as a 400; your call I suppose)

Also, and no doubt this will be corrected by our esteemed Systems volunteers in due course, I notice that the website doesn't yet "see" a 200+400 as a 600. Mike Kelly for example has an SR already, but the system doesn't see it because the 600s were done as extended 200s.

Well it's either 200 and 400 or 600, not both. If the rules say the calendar event is logged then so will the extension and hence the 600 can't be. The rides that have been entered are the calendar event and the extension so it seems right to me that that is what is recorded in the results. You can't ride more than one event at a time and can't get points for rides not entered.

But, correct me if I'm wrong, for the purposes of awards etc, you can count a 200 Calendar plus 400 Extension as a 600, no? The website isn't seeing that - it only sees the component parts, and as it hasn't seen a 600, it isn't awarding an SR.

No big deal.

[MSeries]

...So hopefully easy to decipher for RRTY; (Mike W not sure if an ECE 200 + calendar 200 will count as 2x200's for a double RRTY; it will of course count as a 400; your call I suppose)

Also, and no doubt this will be corrected by our esteemed Systems volunteers in due course, I notice that the website doesn't yet "see" a 200+400 as a 600. Mike Kelly for example has an SR already, but the system doesn't see it because the 600s were done as extended 200s.

Well it's either 200 and 400 or 600, not both. If the rules say the calendar event is logged then so will the extension and hence the 600 can't be. The rides that have been entered are the calendar event and the extension so it seems right to me that that is what is recorded in the results. You can't ride more than one event at a time and can't get points for rides not entered.

But, correct me if I'm wrong, for the purposes of awards etc, you can count a 200 Calendar plus 400 Extension as a 600, no? The website isn't seeing that - it only sees the component parts, and as it hasn't seen a 600, it isn't awarding an SR.

No big deal.

I don't know.  Seems the rider has been awarded a 400 and a 200 in the results, not a 600 which is the way the way the ECE was billed so that riders extending AAA events can still claim the AAA points, the organisers can list their finishers and the riders can get points for the kilometres they rode. Seems right to me since that's what was entered. It's what I would have expected


No deal at all for me.

[Graeme Wyllie]

Good work Martin.  Not sure I understand all the ins and outs of this but as a carless audaxer it should benefit me personally as it will make it easier to tag on a ride to/from/both a calendar event.

     

[frankly frankie]

Seems the rider has been awarded a 400 and a 200 in the results, not a 600 which is the way the way the ECE was billed ...

I've no idea what the official line is with this, but it seems to me that it's necessary for there to be clarity about what exactly took place - which is why the 400 and 200 would be separated in the listings.  If the intention is also to allow this as a 600 for SR purposes, well, we've got 9 months to come up with a way of doing that ... (I can tell you that the existing code to detect SRs is already humungous, but I daresay it'll stretch a bit more yet ...)

[MSeries]

ECEs and calendar events are separate rides ridden consecutively which when combined create a combined distance not event. That's my understanding of it and it is within the rules.

[MSeries]

I've been thinking a bit more about this and I can see why some might think that the 400+200 might mean a 600 has been done, after all 100+100 means a 200 has been done. It'll be well confusing in the points lists though if the 400 is not going to be counted twice.

[Uncle Eric]

It's confusing. Is it like this:

- with ECE you do a DIY and a calender event in one day.
- you're awarded AUK points for the total distance of the day, e.g. 100+200 give you 3 points like if it was one 300k ride. But the "virtual 300k event" is not recorded in the results table and can not be used towards an SR or randonneur 1000 or whatever award where a 300k is needed. But the 200 (regardless if that's the calender event or the DIY) might if needed.
- the DIY might be done in two "parts" - part 1 directly before the calender event and part 2 directly after as long as the whole thing is done at AUK speed.

That would mean there are two main features with this scheme:

1. Rides to and from a calender event can be combined into a DIY of the sum of the distances to and from the calender event.
2. It allows a 100k to give you 1 AUK point if the DIY+cal distance is at least 200k (if both the DIY and cal would be at least 200k each you'd get the points anyway).

[frankly frankie]

I would have thought that, since we have been told that the old method (parallel DIY) is to be phased out, the new ECEs will have to be countable as a total distance for SR purposes.  Even though they may be listed separately.

[teethgrinder]

I've been thinking a bit more about this and I can see why some might think that the 400+200 might mean a 600 has been done, after all 100+100 means a 200 has been done. It'll be well confusing in the points lists though if the 400 is not going to be counted twice.

A 200 and 400 ridden in this way, in my opinion, does count as a 600. They are not two seporate rides, they are one ride made up of two.
Mike Kelly still had the time allowance for a 600 when he rode the 200 and 400. He still could have been timed out and couldn't decide to ride the permanent part of the ride later in the day after some rest.
The only reason we split the rides up is for points counting purposes. When this was done before as a DIY, we counted the total distance of the DIY as a permanent. I believe that if we never had the 50% rule, then these rides would count as total distance and not two seporate rides.

I think it is important to acknowledge the rides for their total distance. Not so much for points chasers, but more for anyone aiming for an SR or their longest ride.
After all, AUK voted in favour of maintaining the 50% rule, so it would make sense to encourage people to ride calendar events and this seems like a good way of doing it, by padding them out into longer rides.

Also, if you think that ridng a 200 and 400 count as two seporate events, where do you stand on the time allowance if you ride a 300 and 400 where you would have a slower minimum speed of 13.3kmh if it was a 700, but not if it is two seporate events. Or would you allow a rest period. It would make things much more complicated.