Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?

[simonp]

So my fat burning ability is not optimised at the moment. I had a peak of 35% from fat, and probably that should be aiming for at least 50%. Interestingly the fat burning climbed, then there was a sudden peak, followed by a trough, then it shot up again. It looked as though the trough co-incided with my heart rate starting to rise rapidly then the second peak was when that rise levelled off again. Probably a result of the variation in effort level (increasing effort by 20W every minute).

My AT was at 240W (about the same as measured last time in 2009) and my VO2max occurred at 320W at 3.902L/min of oxygen, for a VO2max of 51.2 given my current weight. In 2009 I peaked at 4.05L/min with a VO2max of 54.8 as I was 2kg lighter. I’m aiming to lose 2-4kg by PBP.

Mostly I need to ride my bike in zone 2 to train my aerobic base. Exactly the same thing I was told in 2009. I’ll be going back in to discuss the results in more detail at some point. I’m tempted to repeat the test at least once more between now and PBP as it’s easy to get to for me (well it is now - I got lost on the way and was late).

[Chris S]

Fasted rides of increasing length work for me. At least I assume they do - I've never had my Vo2Max measured, but I can ride 100km before breakfast when fit.

Obviously this leads to some really low blood sugar. If I'm not that well keto adapted, that makes me miserable and moody (Rutland 100 a couple of weeks ago - fasted but moody!  ), but once keto-adapted (brain happy to run on ketones instead of glucose) I'm much happier. The science kinda works; not that that makes it any easier to achieve - adaptation can take months.

[T42]

I read a report a few years ago to the effect that a five-minute break an hour after starting accelerates the switch to fat-burning.  I'm none too sure that a 5-min break filled with coffee and cake would have the same effect, but I've noticed that on rides that include a 25-km control I go a hell of a lot better afterwards.

[simonp]

I suspect the numbers might look a bit different if I'd cycled the 18 miles to the testing place. I wasn't fasted when I did the test.

Vo2max is improved by endurance training but more effectively by HIIT. But it correlates best with 5 minute effort performance and isn't something I need to work on.

[Blodwyn Pig]

been off the bike for 10 days, whist working in That France ,  so not much exercise, but still manage to loose a little bit of weight, not much tho, but also didn't put any on . Sticking to the regime as much as I can, but although I haven't lost that much weight, prob 4 .5 kg+/-. my body shape has change quite dramatically. 1 extra belt notch, or if no belt, I can tuck a tee shirt, a thin wool jumper, and a medium pile fleece, into my jeans.  I blagged some bib shorts from the free section a week or so back, and tried them on today. Opened the packet  , and thought  'your kidding me' they'll never fit me. When I tried them on, i felt like an althlete, and I looked at my self in the mirror, then sideways as well, my god! my stomach has dissapeared,...its flat! no more distended belly, full of gas or whatever, and out on the bike I felt like a whippet, its as if I've lost about 2 stone.

as they used to say ''Rock-on Tommy''   (Cannon and Ball IIRC)

[jimmea]

Been trying to have at go at this for a couple of weeks and to be honest i'm struggling a bit, especially on the bike and with hunger too. I find i'm worrying about where the energy's going to come from when on the bike, out today for 80k and struggled badly, not with the hunger but lack of energy. About 50k stopped at shop and had one those pepparami things  and a pint of full fat milk  managed ok but despite having chicken stir fry for dinner i'm still hungry, not eaten bread, pasta, potatoes or rice for 2 weeks or more, no processed food either, plenty of eggs, fish,cheese, meat and vegetables. I'm actually wondering if i've reduced the carbs enough to make a difference, can't be arsed with the counting though.

[campagman]

are you eating Ketogenic or Paleo? With both there is an adaptation stage to go through for the first 2/3 wks. The Paleo Diet for athletes book recommends introducing carbs before, during and after exercise.

[Blodwyn Pig]

''Chicken stir fry for dinner and I'm still hungry''  that could be because part of the stir fry is ....noodles....eg carbs.   maybe a Chicken stir fry, without noodles,  but with added nuts, grated carrot, and a couple of fried eggs and grated cheese on top. That should keep you going till tomorrow lunchtime, with a 50km fasted ride for breakfast.

[jimmea]

''Chicken stir fry for dinner and I'm still hungry''  that could be because part of the stir fry is ....noodles....eg carbs.   maybe a Chicken stir fry, without noodles,  but with added nuts, grated carrot, and a couple of fried eggs and grated cheese on top. That should keep you going till tomorrow lunchtime, with a 50km fasted ride for breakfast.

No noodles involved, chicken and veg only.

[jimmea]

are you eating Ketogenic or Paleo? With both there is an adaptation stage to go through for the first 2/3 wks. The Paleo Diet for athletes book recommends introducing carbs before, during and after exercise.

LCHF i suppose, just trying to reduce the carbs as other methods of weight loss have not been successful.

[Chris S]

Hello WCTD

There are lots of possibilities as to why you're struggling. First and foremost, a couple of weeks isn't that long - it might take a couple of months to fully adapt.

The good news is, there's lots you can do to ease the path to adaptation. Firstly, re-read this thread - follow the links various of us have posted; there's lots of info out there but it takes some digging to find it.

Don't be afraid to eat more fat. Fat helps satiety - which will reduce your hunger issues.

Drink plenty of water - and put salt on everything! Turns out, salt is really only a problem (hypertension) when it's in conjunction with carbs. Once you reduce carbs enough, your body will dump salt (and also potassium, and magnesium) and this loss of electrolytes can make you feel pretty crappy ( so called "keto flu" ) so keep your electrolytes coming.

Don't stress the loss of performance. It does come back - your body will learn, it will adapt. I've been low carb since New Year, and after a month of being pretty rubbish, I'm now happily lifting weights, and riding longer distances.

As they say on reddit/keto - "Keep calm and Keto on"

[Jakob]

Been trying to have at go at this for a couple of weeks and to be honest i'm struggling a bit, especially on the bike and with hunger too. I find i'm worrying about where the energy's going to come from when on the bike, out today for 80k and struggled badly, not with the hunger but lack of energy. About 50k stopped at shop and had one those pepparami things  and a pint of full fat milk  managed ok but despite having chicken stir fry for dinner i'm still hungry, not eaten bread, pasta, potatoes or rice for 2 weeks or more, no processed food either, plenty of eggs, fish,cheese, meat and vegetables. I'm actually wondering if i've reduced the carbs enough to make a difference, can't be arsed with the counting though.

What's currently working for me is:

Morning: Smoothie from: 1 cup frozen fruit, 1/2 banana, 1tsp almond butter, 1 cup orange juice and 3 (raw) eggs.
Snack: Elevate/Protein bar
Lunch: 1 handful of meat (varies between roasted chicken, hamburgers, turkey meatloaf),  kale salad and a big handful of broccoli.
Snack: cashew nuts+ raisins
Dinner: Same as lunch
Snack: (same as above).

No more post lunch drowsiness and I have a lot more energy than usual.
Unfortunately I'm also doing a lot of overtime, so wheels have fallen off a bit and the gluten/rice/noodle free dinner options at work are not great.

[jimmea]

Hello WCTD

There are lots of possibilities as to why you're struggling. First and foremost, a couple of weeks isn't that long - it might take a couple of months to fully adapt.

The good news is, there's lots you can do to ease the path to adaptation. Firstly, re-read this thread - follow the links various of us have posted; there's lots of info out there but it takes some digging to find it.

Don't be afraid to eat more fat. Fat helps satiety - which will reduce your hunger issues.

Drink plenty of water - and put salt on everything! Turns out, salt is really only a problem (hypertension) when it's in conjunction with carbs. Once you reduce carbs enough, your body will dump salt (and also potassium, and magnesium) and this loss of electrolytes can make you feel pretty crappy ( so called "keto flu" ) so keep your electrolytes coming.

Don't stress the loss of performance. It does come back - your body will learn, it will adapt. I've been low carb since New Year, and after a month of being pretty rubbish, I'm now happily lifting weights, and riding longer distances.

As they say on reddit/keto - "Keep calm and Keto on"

Thanks Chris, i've had a read back and it has some really good info, couple of things i couldn't quite see though, how to tell when you've adapted ? by that i mean how do you know that your body is burning fat from, in my case, a quite large store, and matters relating to no longer being regular in the bowel dept,it's been quite a while 

[Chris S]

Thanks Chris, i've had a read back and it has some really good info, couple of things i couldn't quite see though, how to tell when you've adapted ? by that i mean how do you know that your body is burning fat from, in my case, a quite large store, and matters relating to no longer being regular in the bowel dept,it's been quite a while 

You can be pretty sure you've become adapted if (select one or more from the list):

• You have a steady flow of energy all day long - no ups and downs and certainly no afternoon, post-lunch slump
• You can ride/run/swim (pick your activity!) for long periods without bonking or need for carby food
• You feel mentally sharper, more "with it", and less groggy
• You might feel a bit euphoric
• You can do at least as high an intensity workout as you could before you went low carb
• If you had keto-breath when you started, that's disappeared. It's a temporary thing when your body spills the ketones (wee and breath) because it's not yet adapted to using them

As for gastric function - that too changes. I'll hide the details from the more squeamish readers

(click to show/hide)

People seem to have different experiences - some get looser bowels, some get bunged up. IME, bowel habits changed, but then reset back to normal once I'd been on LCHF for a while. What's more striking is how "upset" my insides get if, after a long spell of LCHF, I have a "normal" few days; suddenly I get indigestion, bloating, dreadful wind, and probably the skits.

Drink plenty of water - it really helps. Make sure you get plenty of vegetables, salad, and low-fructose fruit (ie berries). Also, a handful of mixed nuts a day might help mobility. Oh, and regular exercise - but you knew that already, I'm sure!

Two striking things I've found (and I'm not the only one to find this) - no more farting, and poo doesn't smell. If it does smell at all, it smells more like baby poo - y'know, when they're on breast milk. Weird - but true.

[mattc]

Partial answer to the above:
On some sporty podcast recently there was an expert claiming fat-adaption generally only takes 2 weeks; at that point you're not fully "adapted" but most of the changes are there.

Anyhoo:
I'm after "convenient" snack tips. 2 main categories I guess:
- on the bike snacks;
- stuff I can make quickly at home.
(currently I'm eating a lot of processed meat,  which I'm keen to avoid due to all the additives/salt)

If this is in separate thread - or if discussed extensively already on page eleventy-one - please advise!

[Chris S]

On the bike:

BabyBels
Nuts (Cashews, Mixed, maybe Peanuts (not nuts))
Pepperami (Yuk! - fboab occasionally eats these)

But, once adapted - we don't need to carry anything - bonking doesn't happen.

At home:

Cheese
Cold meats - keep a ready supply of chicken legs/wings/thighs - roast them in batches and they're always there in the fridge
Half a can of pink or red salmon, or maybe mackerel
Berries & cream
Sugar-free jelly & cream (I make my own sugar-free jelly with frozen summer fruits and gelatin, sweetened with a little Stevia) - one pint makes a batch of five jellies
Handful of nuts

[mattc]

Thanks.

I should say that I do not realistically hope to ever cut-out carbs properly. I dont have the willpower! (Toast - its a basic Human Right. Marmite or Jam, or just butter - not bovvered)

But I have found advantages to increasing my fat:carb ratio, and feel that fasted riding has worked very well for me.

So the more low-carb food in my diet the better. Yet snacks for use on long rides will probably always be a feature (and for those mid-afternoon work treats, when everyone else is scoffing birthday cake). My flapjack fairy does make me _excellent_  low sugar fruity/nutty morsels,  but I reckon I can do better.

[Chris S]

Toast - its a basic Human Right. Marmite or Jam, or just butter - not bovvered

Yes. The smell of toast, or freshly baked bread, do officially qualify as "Torture" for LCHF'ers.

Thankfully, the smell of cooking bacon works too 

[Blodwyn Pig]

So how much carb is TOO much per day?  I mean if you say have fish and chips but only have say 10 chips, will this undo all that has gone before.  Likewise 1 slice of bread?? (toast).

[Blodwyn Pig]

''Chicken stir fry for dinner and I'm still hungry''  that could be because part of the stir fry is ....noodles....eg carbs.   maybe a Chicken stir fry, without noodles,  but with added nuts, grated carrot, and a couple of fried eggs and grated cheese on top. That should keep you going till tomorrow lunchtime, with a 50km fasted ride for breakfast.

No noodles involved, chicken and veg only.

Funny this. i had the same last night, with a tiny potion of rice, (really small) Wasnt full after either, although there seemed to be a fair bit on my plate. But today I had an 80km errand to run, and I felt totally flat riding fasted, not normally like me, but I was flagging. then it dawned on me that my dinner the previous nte, of stir fry, (no extra cheese, or eggs, just stirfry) had no FAT in it at all, thats why I was low on energy. Still forced myself to about 55km before succombing to a banana and a small round cheese.

[Chris S]

So how much carb is TOO much per day?  I mean if you say have fish and chips but only have say 10 chips, will this undo all that has gone before.  Likewise 1 slice of bread?? (toast).

It's an entirely personal thing. Everyone is Insulin Resistant to a degree. At one extreme you have someone who can eat a ten pack of Asda doughnuts in a single sitting (highly insulin sensitive), and yet be skeletally thin, and someone else who no matter how hard they try, cannot lose any fat even on next to no carbs (highly insulin resistant).

[Blodwyn Pig]

so you think that on this keto regime, a 'little' carbs is ok, or should one stay well clear.

[Chinaski]

so you think that on this keto regime, a 'little' carbs is ok, or should one stay well clear.

I just eat HFLC and don't  look to get into Ketosis(although mixed with intermittent fasting and depleted cycling I've no doubt entered Ketosis many times) but this is one of the better resources to answer your question.

http://eatingacademy.com/sports-and-nutrition/ketones-carbohydrates-can-co-exist

[Chris S]

Just watched "Cereal Killers II - Run on Fat" which delves into the world of elite athletic performance on a LCHF diet.

As a story running through the various interviews with the old protagonists, they follow this crazy couple who rowed 2400 miles from SFO to Hawaii: http://www.fatchancerow.org/

Lots of interesting stuff for Keto fans - once again, the essential message is "Eat real food".

[Ningishzidda]

'On the bike' snack.

Doggie bag of Premier Inn sausages.