GPX OR NOT GPX?

[Kim]

It always makes me smile when I hear of riders turning up at an Org's house because that's where the GPX route started rather than at the actual start point...

Surely that's incompetence on the part of the organiser though, just as it would be if the routesheet instructions started at their house?

Which isn't to say a rider who's done their homework wouldn't spot it, but they shouldn't have to.

[Karla]

Ah yes, postal entries. I understand the arguments that some put forward for them, but the reality is for Gen X and below, postal entry is yet another inaccessible anachronistic barrier to entry things. Who uses a cheque book these days? How many audaxers if they opened their cheque book would find the only times they have used it is to pay for audaxes...

It's like the question of whether we should still use cash — "well Gen Z don't so why should anyone else?" — eh?!!  I'm Gen X and I am comfortable with cash — and postal entries.  Disposing of this useful method would slice off a sizeable minority of long-standing members of AUK for no apparent benefit to AUK.  As an organiser it would simplify my life by a little, although not by as much as you might think. 

QG is making a good point, which is that most of this thread has worked on the following underlying assumptions:

• Electronic stuff can break down.
• It's quite reasonable not to be able to use electronic stuff.
• We can always go back to the reliable paper-based alternatives, which cannot fail.
• Everyone has a stable postal address.
• Everyone has the means to send money by post.

The past two audaxes I've entered (and for that matter the past two TTs)

• I have not had a printer, or access to a printer.
• I have not had a return postal address.
• I have not had a chequebook.
• I have not had any local currency to put in the envelope instead of a cheque.
• I have not been able to read the language in which the route sheet has been written.

For approximately the rest of 2019, I expect to be UK-based but itinerant enough that all except the last two of those hills true.

The hypothetical oldster is considered normal on here, who is not old enough to have retired from cycling 200 km but is too old and single to know anyone with a computer.  The itinerant Xer, however, is considered niche enough that technologies requiring a stable address and access to cheques are lauded as reliable, universal fallbacks.  Why is that?

[wilkyboy]

The hypothetical oldster is considered normal on here, who is not old enough to have retired from cycling 200 km but is too old and single to know anyone with a computer.  The itinerant Xer, however, is considered niche enough that technologies requiring a stable address and access to cheques are lauded as reliable, universal fallbacks.  Why is that?

Hmm, I'm not sure your assertion is correct about "the hypothetical oldster" and "itinerant Xer".  To my mind what has been said is that "there are groups of people like this" and not "all people of a certain age/generation are like this", no not at all.

In fact, in my experience, some of the quickest adopters of GPS have been "oldsters", because they have the spare cash (kids left home) and it mitigates a very real problem (long-sightedness).  But that doesn't mean they have a PayPal account.

As for Xers — this is the first I've heard of "stable address" coming into the discussion, so it feels like you're dumping your own personal, and very niche (IMO), issues into the argument.  I would posit that it's extremely unusual that someone doesn't have some form of stable address, be it home, college, parents, work, friends, and who would also own a bike and be interested in audax — not impossible, but way outside the current discussion. 

And [UK] Xers will be experienced with cheques, whether or not they still use them.  The point isn't that they all want to — the point is that they could if they wanted to.  It's not about grouping generations together, it's about NOT preventing any subgroups from taking part — however one chooses to define them.

[L CC]

Do you really not see the hypocrisy in this statement?

No, by all means explain it to me, In PM if you like.

TBH, I didn't see it either 

OK, I'll spell it out.

The reason people (including me) are asking QJ to justify her opinions with experience is because although she'll admit that her way is only *currently* the right way for her, & may not be in the future, she still has the arrogance to claim people who have been doing things successfully but differently than her for years are wrong.

Really?

And no, I won't be bragging about my experience on this thread. It's crass. I've already impressed the only person who cares. Thanks mum!

[jiberjaber]

.......................

It always makes me smile when I hear of riders turning up at an Org's house because that's where the GPX route started rather than at the actual start point...

Is that more likely to happen because the organiser's home address is usually far more prominent on the event web page than the start point?

Nope - this was a GPX provided by the org but was their actual ridden track so the started and finished at home and rode to event start. Also - see similar location, different ride, not the first time I've seen this so perhaps it's an in joke by them  (you might recall a lot of people complaining on FB about a 300km ride having an additional over distance of 60km!)

[quixoticgeek]

You are making statements about diversity in AUK events based on your experience of riding Audax on the Continent ? Just to make sure I get you.

Yes. Noone has provided empirical evidence to suggest that AUK calendar events are significantly more diverse than Randonneurs NL events are.

How many AUK calendar events had even close to 50% gender split, or within the men, am average age of below 40?

J

[wilkyboy]

TBH, I didn't see it either 

OK, I'll spell it out.

Thanks 

Whew, your point covered a lot of posts in this thread — I see it, but it was a case of wood-for-the-trees.

[Ian H]

Why is that?

Time and technology lag due to organisers being volunteers with other commitments?

[quixoticgeek]

OK, I'll spell it out.

The reason people (including me) are asking QJ to justify her opinions with experience is because although she'll admit that her way is only *currently* the right way for her, & may not be in the future, she still has the arrogance to claim people who have been doing things successfully but differently than her for years are wrong.

Really

I appear to have epically failed to convey my point. I apologise.

I am not saying that the way people are doing it is wrong. I am saying that people are wrong to assume that a route sheet is the most accessible option, that people are wrong to assume that what works for them works for everyone.

I am trying to suggest a plurality of options should be available, as it will make Audaxing more accessible to a wider audience.

At no point am I saying don't use or supply route sheets, at no point am I saying stop allowing cheques for entry. What I am saying is it is 2019, and Audaxing in the UK would be better if a GPX was provided for each event, that it would be better if people could enter online.

At the very least the website should allow searching by events that do provide GPX of the route.

And no, I won't be bragging about my experience on this thread. It's crass. I've already impressed the only person who cares. Thanks mum!

Then don't fucking challenge others to demonstrate that they are worthy of holding the opinions they hold if you aren't prepared to accept a similar challenge.

This is a problem that is endemic to both the cycling and the tech world. Women having to justify our reason for being here. This is even worse now I've realised that it's not  some bloke on the net challenging me, but another woman. I should not have to justify my existence. The patronising sexist bullshit of being a woman in a male dominated world is enough as it is, lets not make it worse.

J
 

[rob]

And no, I won't be bragging about my experience on this thread. It's crass. I've already impressed the only person who cares. Thanks mum!

That's great.   My Mum cares very little, but she will be letting me sleep in the spare room on my 600 this weekend.

[wilkyboy]

You are making statements about diversity in AUK events based on your experience of riding Audax on the Continent ? Just to make sure I get you.

Yes. Noone has provided empirical evidence to suggest that AUK calendar events are significantly more diverse than Randonneurs NL events are.

How many AUK calendar events had even close to 50% gender split, or within the men, am average age of below 40?

A lot of organisers are trying hard to address the gender split — LWL closed entries to men early to allow women to take up more places and achieved nearly 50-50 I believe.  In Cambridge we see around 30% women on shorter events with many coming in from local women's cycling groups, but that evaporates on longer events (which might have something to do with the weather we've had on our most recent ones!). 

Unfortunately, the gender-split question in audax is more widely reflected in sports cycling as a whole and the fix will take a lot of time (many years) at grass-roots cycling level — that might be assisted by organisers such as myself working with local groups, but not by much.

As for age-related splits, pfft that's a non-story.  Retired people have more free time for such time-selfish endeavours and so the average is skewed.  The only way to improve that would be more shorter — i.e. less time required — events for busy young people, EDIT and possibly call them "sportives" to make them unattractive to older rides who would otherwise turn up anyway, since they often have the time (in order to maximise the averaging effect, it's just an observation on how the maths would work).

[rob]

You are making statements about diversity in AUK events based on your experience of riding Audax on the Continent ? Just to make sure I get you.

Yes. Noone has provided empirical evidence to suggest that AUK calendar events are significantly more diverse than Randonneurs NL events are.

How many AUK calendar events had even close to 50% gender split, or within the men, am average age of below 40?

A lot of organisers are trying hard to address the gender split — LWL closed entries to men early to allow women to take up more places and achieved nearly 50-50 I believe.  In Cambridge we see around 30% women on shorter events with many coming in from local women's cycling groups, but that evaporates on longer events (which might have something to do with the weather we've had on our most recent ones!). 

Unfortunately, the gender-split question in audax is more widely reflected in sports cycling as a whole and the fix will take a lot of time (many years) at grass-roots cycling level — that might be assisted by organisers such as myself working with local groups, but not by much.

As for age-related splits, pfft that's a non-story.  Retired people have more free time for such time-selfish endeavours and so the average is skewed.  The only way to improve that would be more shorter — i.e. less time required — events for busy young people, EDIT and possibly call them "sportives" to make them unattractive to older rides who would otherwise turn up anyway, since they often have the time (in order to maximise the averaging effect, it's just an observation on how the maths would work).

Thank you.

[Exit Stage Left]

The Adventure Show video of 'Ride to the Sun' is instructive. No entry fee, and a free to download GPX produces the same sort of profile as any of these rides. The film over-represents the number of women, but that's entirely normal. Once you've interviewed one MAMIL you've interviewed them all.

The question of whether showing women attracts more women, or reassures MAMILs that it's not just them, is a debatable point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSOdzsCbIvA

[Karla]

The hypothetical oldster is considered normal on here, who is not old enough to have retired from cycling 200 km but is too old and single to know anyone with a computer.  The itinerant Xer, however, is considered niche enough that technologies requiring a stable address and access to cheques are lauded as reliable, universal fallbacks.  Why is that?

Hmm, I'm not sure your assertion is correct about "the hypothetical oldster" and "itinerant Xer".  To my mind what has been said is that "there are groups of people like this" and not "all people of a certain age/generation are like this", no not at all.

In fact, in my experience, some of the quickest adopters of GPS have been "oldsters", because they have the spare cash (kids left home) and it mitigates a very real problem (long-sightedness).  But that doesn't mean they have a PayPal account.

As for Xers — this is the first I've heard of "stable address" coming into the discussion, so it feels like you're dumping your own personal, and very niche (IMO), issues into the argument.  I would posit that it's extremely unusual that someone doesn't have some form of stable address, be it home, college, parents, work, friends, and who would also own a bike and be interested in audax — not impossible, but way outside the current discussion. 

And [UK] Xers will be experienced with cheques, whether or not they still use them.  The point isn't that they all want to — the point is that they could if they wanted to.  It's not about grouping generations together, it's about NOT preventing any subgroups from taking part — however one chooses to define them.

I agree that audaxers have been early adopters of GPS in general, and that's why the oldster is hypothetical: they're mostly an invention to justified people's pre-existing opinions.

Much of this thread has seen people trying to pick holes in the electronic way of doing things, and justifying paper as being a universal, infallible backup, and therefore superior. Can't get the GPX to work?  Post them a routesheet!  QG's point (and mine) is that that isn't how lots of people live.

From 2013 to mid 2015 I didn't know where I would be living from month to month, thanks to some shitty bosses in my role as a junior droid in one of our august national institutions.  For the second half of 2019 I will be the same - and that isn't niche at all, it's a fairly normal part of life for a lot of people I know in their twenties and thirties. Sure, we could all use Poste Restante bit have you ever tried using that?  It's a complete ballache.  So the suggestion made upthread that routesheets are more accessible than gpx is false, and is something that really grates.

[quixoticgeek]

I'm not really drawn to female exceptionalism, as my partner Heather is a Hyper Randonneur and PBP ancienne. She was never concerned that AUK had lots of old white men. That profile meant that she had more people to ride with, as she could read the routesheet, and the old white men couldn't. So she had a captive peloton at night. GPS has put an end to that co-dependency, and groups form more on grounds of riding style.

This is the problem. "We don't have an accessibility problem, look Julia is here riding" I've seen it so many times. Yes there are women in audaxing, and many of them are doing amazing stuff, I'm a relative minnow compared to the great women of randonneuring. *BUT* the women that are here are doing so despite the system, not because of it. I've explained at length the shit we have to go through, and for every 1 woman that achieves a SR series or a RrtY, 10 women turn up, do their first 200k, and decide to go ride elsewhere cos they didn't feel welcomed, or wanted.

I'm fed up with people being surprised that I'm riding an audax alone, or that I'm riding it at all. I'm fed up with the patronising bollocks that comes with it.

I wanna ride my bike, and I am able to take that shit and try best to ignore it. Most people won't do that. Expecting minorities to make it into Audxing despite all this crap is just wrong.

Don't ask the women that are here what audaxing is doing right or wrong, ask the women that never made it.

J

[jiberjaber]

It always makes me smile when I hear of riders turning up at an Org's house because that's where the GPX route started rather than at the actual start point...

Surely that's incompetence on the part of the organiser though, just as it would be if the routesheet instructions started at their house?

Which isn't to say a rider who's done their homework wouldn't spot it, but they shouldn't have to.

I think there in lies the issue, "failing to plan is planning to fail"

There isn't a covers-all approach to warning of issues on a GPX like there is for a route sheet (i.e. "CAUTION: Sharp Bend on decent" or "Potholes!") - there's a myriad of approaches from Phil's waypoints to my fav cue points in RWGPS and shades between all that.... in addition, any risk assessment which requires mitigation is easier to achieve on the route sheet than in the GPX (though pointing out in the often attached rider info letter might also contribute to the mitigation)...

The GPX example I gave later on in the thread has 60km extra on the 300km route, the route sheet starts at the correct location..  I suspect the org is trying to help by providing the GPX as a basis, the problem comes when it's taken as the single version of truth.

I think it comes down to the Rider has an equal responsibility - it is not just the Org's sole responsibility - there is certainly an obligation on the rider on the entry form declaration: "You should prepare by studying the route".

All riders will have their own workflows on how they prepare, some will work for the majority, others will be 'just the way they like to do it'.

A good example being Wilkyboy doesn't like the cue point turn directions in RWGPS but likes the control countdowns and this works for him and others.  I do not use turn-by-turn directions on my Garmin but do use the cuepoint directions (as do Wahoo users I think) but that works for us, not Wilkyboy... that said, I'm grateful to Nick for providing the GPX in the first place so I have something to work from in my approach.... 

If we could solve the provision of a unified digital route file (in additional to traditional route sheet) that also still ensured we encourages riders to study the route and at the same time mitigates any risks identified by the organiser then that would be great - I am not sure that is something that is realistically achievable given the huge variation of target devices and different approaches used by riders to the events.

[quixoticgeek]

A lot of organisers are trying hard to address the gender split — LWL closed entries to men early to allow women to take up more places and achieved nearly 50-50 I believe.  In Cambridge we see around 30% women on shorter events with many coming in from local women's cycling groups, but that evaporates on longer events (which might have something to do with the weather we've had on our most recent ones!). 

It's great that events like LWL are doing that. I appreciate the work of male allies like this. I also have been on the receiving end of abuse because people have claimed that I got my space on the TCR because I have tits, and not on my merit as a cyclist. Positive discrimination can be useful, but its use has to be carefully applied.

Unfortunately, the gender-split question in audax is more widely reflected in sports cycling as a whole and the fix will take a lot of time (many years) at grass-roots cycling level — that might be assisted by organisers such as myself working with local groups, but not by much.

Yep, I've ranted at great length about the various barriers within the cycle industry that prevent more women cycling. This is why I run womens only group rides here in the Netherlands, why when one woman said "I'd love to come, but I don't have a bike", I lent them a spare. Trying to lift up those around me. I'm part way up the ladder, it's my duty to make it easier for other women to get here.

This is why I am overjoyed that Shimano have announced their GRX groupset with a 46/30 groupset.

It's going to take time, but change will come. Doesn't mean AUK et al can't also make it easier.

As for age-related splits, pfft that's a non-story.  Retired people have more free time for such time-selfish endeavours and so the average is skewed.  The only way to improve that would be more shorter — i.e. less time required — events for busy young people, EDIT and possibly call them "sportives" to make them unattractive to older rides who would otherwise turn up anyway, since they often have the time (in order to maximise the averaging effect, it's just an observation on how the maths would work).

I'm not sure that flies. If events were held on working days, I might agree, but given they are mostly on weekends, whilst the middle of the bell curve may have family commitments, young people who have not yet had a family should be equally time rich on the weekends.

J

[FifeingEejit]

Why is that?

Time and technology lag due to organisers being volunteers with other commitments?

Bit more complex, demographic and psychological than that.
There's nothing stopping a volunteer from being bleeding edge... If they want to.
And there's nothing wrong with not wanting to either.


That's where the 1994 colleague comes from.
He's actually our "DBA" although we dont' officially have one... yes I know...
He still manages the Databases like they are Oracle 4; we're on 10 just now... yes I know only 20 years out of date...
Oracle have never given their customers any reason to do things the newer ways they create because they never deprecate anything.


In the situation where change isn't forced:
Some people will change to the new ways of doing things straight away, they want to be bleeding edge
Some people will follow the above after a while, because they want to keep up but let other people go through the pain.
Others will see the changes but never bother to follow them because they can't be bothered
And the last group stay in their bubble of the way they've always done things.

All 4 responses are perfectly normal.

When change is forced
The first group moan that the change isn't fast enough
The second group accept the change forced on them
The third group grumble and take the change
The fourth group get upset and throw the toys out the pram because they're being told they can't do things the way they've always done.

Again all 4 responses are perfectly normal.

[L CC]

And no, I won't be bragging about my experience on this thread. It's crass. I've already impressed the only person who cares. Thanks mum!

Then don't fucking challenge others to demonstrate that they are worthy of holding the opinions they hold if you aren't prepared to accept a similar challenge.

This is a problem that is endemic to both the cycling and the tech world. Women having to justify our reason for being here. This is even worse now I've realised that it's not  some bloke on the net challenging me, but another woman. I should not have to justify my existence. The patronising sexist bullshit of being a woman in a male dominated world is enough as it is, lets not make it worse.

J

Nobody is asking you to justify your existence. I'm asking you to stop talking like you know it all. To demonstrate you actually have as much experience as those you are so happy to deride. You don't know everything. And neither do I, nor anyone else here.
I'd be just as scathing if you were a bloke, so get off your high fucking horse.

Every couple of years someone arrives on this forum thinking they're the first person ever to ride a bike. It's quite wearing and I've allowed my petty side to be riled.

[Kim]

If we could solve the provision of a unified digital route file (in additional to traditional route sheet) that also still ensured we encourages riders to study the route and at the same time mitigates any risks identified by the organiser then that would be great - I am not sure that is something that is realistically achievable given the huge variation of target devices and different approaches used by riders to the events.

Agreed, but a Track that reflects the actual intended route of an event without extraneous guff would seem to be a good start. 

The format issue exists in routesheets as well.  Perl aside, some of the typesetting can be downright peculiar (which is what you'd expect, as typesetting - like crafting a quality GPX - is a skill that's independent of planning a bike ride).  I note some organisers provide them as spreadsheets with comprehensive columns for total and leg distances in an assortment of units, with the intention that the end user can throw away the stuff they don't want and pick a font and page breaks to suit their vision and/or map-trap.  Seems like a good idea to me.

[jiberjaber]

Why is that?

Time and technology lag due to organisers being volunteers with other commitments?

Bit more complex, demographic and psychological than that.
There's nothing stopping a volunteer from being bleeding edge... If they want to.
And there's nothing wrong with not wanting to either.


That's where the 1994 colleague comes from.
He's actually our "DBA" although we dont' officially have one... yes I know...
He still manages the Databases like they are Oracle 4; we're on 10 just now... yes I know only 20 years out of date...
Oracle have never given their customers any reason to do things the newer ways they create because they never deprecate anything.


In the situation where change isn't forced:
Some people will change to the new ways of doing things straight away, they want to be bleeding edge
Some people will follow the above after a while, because they want to keep up but let other people go through the pain.
Others will see the changes but never bother to follow them because they can't be bothered
And the last group stay in their bubble of the way they've always done things.

All 4 responses are perfectly normal.

When change is forced
The first group moan that the change isn't fast enough
The second group accept the change forced on them
The third group grumble and take the change
The fourth group get upset and throw the toys out the pram because they're being told they can't do things the way they've always done.

Again all 4 responses are perfectly normal.

Cheese Station C!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Moved_My_Cheese%3F

[quixoticgeek]

Every couple of years someone arrives on this forum thinking they're the first person ever to ride a bike. It's quite wearing and I've allowed my petty side to be riled.

I joined the forum in December 2013.

J

[jiberjaber]

If we could solve the provision of a unified digital route file (in additional to traditional route sheet) that also still ensured we encourages riders to study the route and at the same time mitigates any risks identified by the organiser then that would be great - I am not sure that is something that is realistically achievable given the huge variation of target devices and different approaches used by riders to the events.

Agreed, but a Track that reflects the actual intended route of an event without extraneous guff would seem to be a good start. 

The format issue exists in routesheets as well.  Perl aside, some of the typesetting can be downright peculiar (which is what you'd expect, as typesetting - like crafting a quality GPX - is a skill that's independent of planning a bike ride).  I note some organisers provide them as spreadsheets with comprehensive columns for total and leg distances in an assortment of units, with the intention that the end user can throw away the stuff they don't want and pick a font and page breaks to suit their vision and/or map-trap.  Seems like a good idea to me.

Agreed - I have no love for route sheets per-se other than the ability to use them to eventually verify the routes I navigate with.  If you think the debate is heated about GPX and it's hundred approaches - wait till you get in to the conversation about the best approach to route sheets!

(I never print them out anymore (no printer) but when I did I also prefer the full-fat excel as I can slice and dice to suit my requirements)

[Exit Stage Left]

Don't ask the women that are here what audaxing is doing right or wrong, ask the women that never made it.

J

I'm popping out to the shops in a bit. I'd appreciate a methodology for interviews about the availability of GPX files as a factor in participation in Audax rides. I suppose I should ask everybody I encounter. I have interviewed women on LEL and PBP, but clearly that's skewed.

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

Just as a minor point - the postal service at the moment is quite useful for getting a brevet card to an individual for permanent events - as I'd probably baulk at driving to Wales at some ungodly hour of the day to provide a rider with a brevet card at their chosen start points    Historically (I'm guessing) the brevet card was useful as evidence that a rider is part of an organised event and therefore would be covered by AUK insurance, although its possible that the law has moved on and an email exchange and GPX track would now also be sufficient evidence - it would be great if someone had some guidance on that.

Once I've got rides GPX tracked then I would be happy to offer GPX entry and validation and, as long as the rules permit go completely paperless, to cover those who have no current fixed abode.  (As an aside, this would deprive me of one useful piece of information on permanents - the receipts show where people have found food, ATMs, etc, which is good info that I can pass onto other riders of perms that use the same control towns).

Alternatively, you can ride a Super Randonnee, there your proof of passage is photographs of your machine at various specific locations on the route to prove you were there, which is really challenging when you have to find the appropriate part of Denbigh Castle in the early hours!! 

Again to respond upthread, I would consider using others' track logs, but I'm not convinced of the savings.  I can't upload them blindly, because they may well have gone off route accidentally, deliberately (because they knew of a great cafe a few miles off route or had, on the longer events, organised camping/B&B off-route), or taken a longer alternative that looked brilliant to them but would be utterly bonkers to someone else.  But I have committed to do it and by the end of this year, the Cambrian series will be tracked on RWGPS, prioritising any new entries that I receive.   There's one exception to that, which is the 6C Super Randonee which is already tracken on Openrunner, because it has to.

All tracks will be issued with a risk warning, which will be an addition to the standard sheet that I send to all first time Cambrian Series riders to make sure they are aware of the risks they are undertaking.  Again there may be some who think this is unwarranted, but they should talk to RUSA about that...

I'm not sure how much this helps the OP, but I've heard a reasonable and impassioned argument as to having GPX tracks for events and will respond accordingly.