Author Topic: GPX OR NOT GPX?  (Read 87167 times)

S2L

Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #250 on: 14 May, 2019, 03:30:58 pm »
I want some of the stuff you guys smoke...  ;D ::-)


Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #251 on: 14 May, 2019, 03:35:25 pm »
I want some of the stuff you guys smoke...  ;D ::-)



I think you'll find a variety of substances being smoked/consumed.

Fifing, FF, CET, Imm, Kim and Wilky  and are on weed.

QG and FBoab are on methamphetamine and testosterone...

and ESL is, as ever, hitting the acid hard.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #252 on: 14 May, 2019, 03:45:42 pm »
Nobody is asking you to justify your existence. I'm asking you to stop talking like you know it all. To demonstrate you actually have as much experience as those you are so happy to deride. You don't know everything. And neither do I, nor anyone else here.
I'd be just as scathing if you were a bloke, so get off your high fucking horse.

Actually, in this thread, yes you have:

How's that working out for you QG?
What's your DNF vs validation rate? How many GPS devices have you bought to work this fantastic method? I think you're up to 4 now, is it?

You asked me to demonstrate that I am worthy of the opinions I hold.

I've also been challenged in other threads, such as one on the subject of gearing, about whether I was just making a claim about gears not being low enough, or if I really had walked up a hill.

And while in your case you would be just as scathing no matter what my genital configuration were to be, the reality is there are many in the cycling industry for which women are required to justify being there, that we are required to prove we are worthy. You should know that as well as the rest of us. I hadn't realised when I started to defend myself that I wasn't being attacked by a man. I'm glad you consider yourself to be an equal opportunities person, and look forward to you challenging the next jumped up young'en who has the audacity to have a strong opinion.

Quote
Every couple of years someone arrives on this forum thinking they're the first person ever to ride a bike. It's quite wearing and I've allowed my petty side to be riled.

As I say, I've been here since December 2013.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #253 on: 14 May, 2019, 04:25:19 pm »
Back from shopping, and the consensus is that we are best working with data we already have. It was suggested that routes might be gendered more than route-finding methods.

We should filter all events for rates of female participation, compare that with female validations, and that will show us 'female friendly' events. We can rate those FF. We can then filter for low rates of female participation, and low validation rates for both sexes. We can call those 'willy wavers' or WW.

It might also be possible to filter for GPX provided by organiser combined with WW. That would give us the 'Pendle/Pennine' factor, or PP.

This could lead to a couple of new AUK awards. 'Birdy Bloke' or BB, for the male with the highest proportion of FF validations, and 'Geezer Girl', GG, for the female with the highest proportion of WW finishes.

A high number of WW validations would disqualify a rider from any input on routing for rides with a general appeal, as would eccentric bike choice.

Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #254 on: 14 May, 2019, 04:29:11 pm »
...One of my events has no turns or instructions between 2 of the controls, you just ride along the road without deviation for 36km...

I love those bits on route sheets  :)

There's a 600km route in Alaska with about four lines on the route sheet.

Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #255 on: 14 May, 2019, 04:33:53 pm »
Firstly, I don't think there are any GPX-only permanents — the Perms Secretary requires a routesheet before he'll approve a perm event.  There ARE GPS-validated perms, but I don't think there are any that will only take GPS-validation, i.e. paper-validation not allowed, although could be wrong there?

Secondly, the routesheet — the act by the organiser of preparing the routesheet, turn by turn — forms a sound basis for a well-considered Risk Assessment, which is a requirement before any event is published.  Plotting a route on Auto using Google's often arbitrary routing algorithm does not give the required confidence.  I can see AUK rightly requiring orgs to prepare a routesheet for some time to come, if only to give it confidence in the RA, whether or not the org chooses to share the routesheet with riders.

And what we've seen is that more organisers doesn't make much difference to AUK.  The number of rides and validations has not changed much with respect to number of organisers, ISTR.

I picked a permanent at random and found https://www.audax.uk/event-details?eventId=6075 which looked to just be RWGPS? Perhaps there is a routesheet that's sent out when people sign up, shrug. I've definitely seen talk of a GPS-validation-only perm in a case where there just weren't suitable controls in the right places, but maybe that was speculative.

I would certainly want to have confidence that an organiser has done a check ride and made some effort to minimise the risks of the route (though frankly I've found AUK organisers are if anything more aggressive than Google - a number of times I've been on brevets that hopped onto a 50mph dual carriageway for short stretches where Google would have taken a longer route around. Not something I have any issue with, just an observation). But I would've thought writing up a routesheet was a significant extra effort on top of that. If there's no shortage of organisers then I guess it's not really an issue, shrug.

Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #256 on: 14 May, 2019, 04:42:07 pm »
I picked a permanent at random and found https://www.audax.uk/event-details?eventId=6075 which looked to just be RWGPS? Perhaps there is a routesheet that's sent out when people sign up, shrug. I've definitely seen talk of a GPS-validation-only perm in a case where there just weren't suitable controls in the right places, but maybe that was speculative.
New websititis
http://www.aukweb.net/events/detail/na05/
Routesheet:
View & Download na05r.pdf http://www.aukweb.net/routes/na05r.pdf
GPS:
Download na05g.zip  http://www.aukweb.net/gps/na05g.zip

jiberjaber

  • ... Fancy Pants \o/ ...
  • ACME S&M^2
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #257 on: 14 May, 2019, 04:46:36 pm »
Firstly, I don't think there are any GPX-only permanents — the Perms Secretary requires a routesheet before he'll approve a perm event.  There ARE GPS-validated perms, but I don't think there are any that will only take GPS-validation, i.e. paper-validation not allowed, although could be wrong there?

Secondly, the routesheet — the act by the organiser of preparing the routesheet, turn by turn — forms a sound basis for a well-considered Risk Assessment, which is a requirement before any event is published.  Plotting a route on Auto using Google's often arbitrary routing algorithm does not give the required confidence.  I can see AUK rightly requiring orgs to prepare a routesheet for some time to come, if only to give it confidence in the RA, whether or not the org chooses to share the routesheet with riders.

And what we've seen is that more organisers doesn't make much difference to AUK.  The number of rides and validations has not changed much with respect to number of organisers, ISTR.




I picked a permanent at random and found https://www.audax.uk/event-details?eventId=6075 which looked to just be RWGPS? Perhaps there is a routesheet that's sent out when people sign up, shrug. I've definitely seen talk of a GPS-validation-only perm in a case where there just weren't suitable controls in the right places, but maybe that was speculative.

I would certainly want to have confidence that an organiser has done a check ride and made some effort to minimise the risks of the route (though frankly I've found AUK organisers are if anything more aggressive than Google - a number of times I've been on brevets that hopped onto a 50mph dual carriageway for short stretches where Google would have taken a longer route around. Not something I have any issue with, just an observation). But I would've thought writing up a routesheet was a significant extra effort on top of that. If there's no shortage of organisers then I guess it's not really an issue, shrug.

Looks like there is a route sheet on the current AUK site??
https://www.aukweb.net/perms/detail/NA05/
Regards,

Joergen

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #258 on: 14 May, 2019, 04:51:12 pm »
I would certainly want to have confidence that an organiser has done a check ride and made some effort to minimise the risks of the route (though frankly I've found AUK organisers are if anything more aggressive than Google - a number of times I've been on brevets that hopped onto a 50mph dual carriageway for short stretches where Google would have taken a longer route around. Not something I have any issue with, just an observation). But I would've thought writing up a routesheet was a significant extra effort on top of that. If there's no shortage of organisers then I guess it's not really an issue, shrug.

Yes, they will have done.  The routesheet would say "CARE" or "CAUTION" or something like that for those dual carriageways, although the GPS file would probably make no mention.

Typically I ride and re-ride one of my routes (perm or calendar) anywhere upwards from a couple of times to four or five before it's published, getting the best I believe I can from the route, both in quality riding and in rider safety — that's quite a lot of time.  The time to write a routesheet is, by comparison, lost in the noise.  Maybe that's just me ...
Lockdown lethargy. RRTY: wot's that? Can't remember if I'm on #8 or #9 ...

C-3PO

  • Human-cyborg relations
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #259 on: 14 May, 2019, 04:55:20 pm »
Please remain excellent to all posters.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #260 on: 14 May, 2019, 07:00:11 pm »
Every couple of years someone arrives on this forum thinking they're the first person ever to ride a bike. It's quite wearing and I've allowed my petty side to be riled.

I think it's the nature of cycling:  You only get half-decent at it by doing a lot of it, and that tends to be a solo activity.  By the time you care enough to seek out fellow cyclists, you're liable to have formed Opinions, possibly the hard way.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #261 on: 14 May, 2019, 07:07:43 pm »
Every couple of years someone arrives on this forum thinking they're the first person ever to ride a bike. It's quite wearing and I've allowed my petty side to be riled.

I joined the forum in December 2013.

J
2013 you say? Hmmm... do you realise how long ago many people here rode their first 600k?  ;D  :-*

fboab is right on this. FWIW you are FAR from the worst - we get self-proclaimed experts who don't have half your abilities (or cycling experience). Do remember that a feature of lots-of-audaxing-experience is usually getting to know lots of different riders - I know you think Audax is not very diverse, but trust me, over time you get to chat to a HUGE range of people, ages, backgrounds etc :) Most of us learn from those people - not least we learn that some riders are very different to us!!!

Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

marcusjb

  • Full of bon courage.
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #262 on: 14 May, 2019, 07:10:29 pm »
...One of my events has no turns or instructions between 2 of the controls, you just ride along the road without deviation for 36km...

I love those bits on route sheets  :)

There's a 600km route in Alaska with about four lines on the route sheet.

WATCH
OUT
FOR
BEARS

 ;)
Right! What's next?

Ooooh. That sounds like a daft idea.  I am in!

rob

Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #263 on: 14 May, 2019, 08:17:38 pm »
Every couple of years someone arrives on this forum thinking they're the first person ever to ride a bike. It's quite wearing and I've allowed my petty side to be riled.

I joined the forum in December 2013.

J
2013 you say? Hmmm... do you realise how long ago many people here rode their first 600k?  ;D  :-*

fboab is right on this. FWIW you are FAR from the worst - we get self-proclaimed experts who don't have half your abilities (or cycling experience). Do remember that a feature of lots-of-audaxing-experience is usually getting to know lots of different riders - I know you think Audax is not very diverse, but trust me, over time you get to chat to a HUGE range of people, ages, backgrounds etc :) Most of us learn from those people - not least we learn that some riders are very different to us!!!

‘Tis true.  Lots of people on here rode audaxes long before forums existed.   Many people on here became audaxers because of this forum.  I have friends that I knew before and people that I have met on here.

As an example I knew Matt’s dad before I met him.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #264 on: 14 May, 2019, 08:47:54 pm »
2013 you say? Hmmm... do you realise how long ago many people here rode their first 600k?  ;D  :-*

fboab is right on this. FWIW you are FAR from the worst - we get self-proclaimed experts who don't have half your abilities (or cycling experience). Do remember that a feature of lots-of-audaxing-experience is usually getting to know lots of different riders - I know you think Audax is not very diverse, but trust me, over time you get to chat to a HUGE range of people, ages, backgrounds etc :) Most of us learn from those people - not least we learn that some riders are very different to us!!!

Excellent, that means I'm better placed to give an opinion on what it means to do your first audax more recently. Comparing the experience of getting into Audax in the last 2-3 years, vs doing so 10, 20, or 30+ years ago, it's different, as are peoples memories of it. Twenty years ago, having a cheque book was the norm, and a GPS device was not a common consumer item. So a route sheet and all that it entails was really the only way to play this game. This is why my statement about it being 2019 is relevant. Times change. What was once considered accessible isn't anymore. Sometimes you need someone to look at things from a slightly different perspective to be able to point this out.

As for the differences, yes, everyone is an individual, and most of the riders I meet on events, and via this forum are very different from me. But they are still predominantly a very specific demographic, one I've been told off for mentioning.

But hey, we all just want to ride bikes, I can continue to scream from the side lines about things that would make it easier for people to join our rides, and people will continue to ignore me, cos I'm a jumped up youngen that hasn't done enough, and wasn't there, and obviously doesn't know what they are talking about. I'll continue to do my rides, maybe one day I'll get to the start of an Audax there'll be more so many women that I have to queue to use the loo. I just won't be doing so on an event that doesn't offer a GPX file of of the route.

Ride safe.

J

--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Chris S

Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #265 on: 14 May, 2019, 09:21:02 pm »

Excellent, that means I'm better placed to give an opinion on what it means to do your first audax more recently. Comparing the experience of getting into Audax in the last 2-3 years, vs doing so 10, 20, or 30+ years ago, it's different, as are peoples memories of it. Twenty years ago, having a cheque book was the norm, and a GPS device was not a common consumer item. So a route sheet and all that it entails was really the only way to play this game. This is why my statement about it being 2019 is relevant. Times change. What was once considered accessible isn't anymore. Sometimes you need someone to look at things from a slightly different perspective to be able to point this out.


Yes and no. I suppose I was an "early adopter" of GPS devices, my first GPS enabled ride was probably the Hopey New Year in 2009. Back then, no rides had an accompanying GPX file, and I accepted that it was my job to transpose the routesheet to a track/route for my device. It became part of the ride prep routine.

Here we are, ten years later, and most organisers now provide GPS options of some description, but they are not obliged to. Unless AUK rules have changed, the routesheet is still king and trumps all.

Being a sanguine kind of chap, if an organiser doesn't offer a GPS file, or does and it's not compatible with my device, I'll just deal with it accordingly; I'll either ride with a routesheet (unlikely), do the donkey-work to make my own GPX (much more likely), or not do the ride.

Like I say - unless the rules have changed, the printed routesheet is still the "road book", and anything else you get from the organiser is up to that organiser and there is no obligation on them to provide anything more than that.

I for one am totally comfortable with that; organisers have enough to worry about without us whining about file-formats or track-point densities.

Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #266 on: 14 May, 2019, 09:59:35 pm »
Sadly I missed following this thread from the start  :(

However, I've thoroughly enjoyed catching up with it - kind of like binge-watching a DVD TV series' box-set   ;D

Can we have more pointless outrage, more stating-the-bleedin'-obvious and definitely more hissy fits please?

I have enough popcorn, honest.

:thumbsup:
You're only as successful as your last 1200...

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #267 on: 14 May, 2019, 10:02:20 pm »
As an example I knew Matt’s dad before I met him.

[OT] So did I, and you were a Junior by the AUK definitions of the time...

Bianchi Boy

  • Cycling is my doctor
  • Is it possible for a ride to be too long?
    • Reading Cycling Club
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #268 on: 14 May, 2019, 10:09:51 pm »
You are making statements about diversity in AUK events based on your experience of riding Audax on the Continent ? Just to make sure I get you.

Yes. Noone has provided empirical evidence to suggest that AUK calendar events are significantly more diverse than Randonneurs NL events are.

How many AUK calendar events had even close to 50% gender split, or within the men, am average age of below 40?

J
Why do you persist in this drivel?

Next you will be going on about how football crowds are mainly men who wear nylon shirts.

The events are what they are and will attract people of a particular mind set. I have just ridden the HellFire 400km - this is a really hard event with no toilet facilities on route and the food on offer is limited by the fact you are in Scotland and if you do not eat meat pies there is not much else on offer. Well The Brown's rode the tandem round and Mrs Brown managed just fine, there was a sporty girl in the lead group and two women from Aberdeen who I rolled in with at the end. Participation has nothing to do with any type of equality or diversity objectives set by the organiser, but the mind sets of the riders. It is good to see events where the victimised minority of unwashed while males feel at home.

BB
Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

Ben T

Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #269 on: 14 May, 2019, 11:51:36 pm »
Just a minor point to those hackers programmers amongst us about RWGPS and waypoints only being able to be downloaded with premium - *cough* F12 *cough*
Bit of a pain to parse them (I use excel) but they are there.


S2L

Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #270 on: 15 May, 2019, 06:36:18 am »
Sadly I missed following this thread from the start  :(

Is that because you were using the wrong GPX file?

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #271 on: 15 May, 2019, 06:46:57 am »
Sadly I missed following this thread from the start  :(

Is that because you were using the wrong GPX file?

:applauds:
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

dogtrousers

  • Pantaloon
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #272 on: 15 May, 2019, 09:55:10 am »
I almost never "blindly" use GPS routes supplied by someone else.  I always give them the once over and generally may edit a bit, maybe splitting into sections, maybe adding waypoints from the route sheet and so on.  Certainly removing timing info if a recorded track has been supplied.   

I do like route sheets and pre-read them and carry them, but don't generally have them ready for quick reference.  If I wanted to do a calendar event that didn't supply a GPX I'd quite happily make my own. 

That's my view as a relatively technically savvy occasional audaxer.  Just do a couple of calendar events per year.  Not always an AUK member (but I am at the moment) No perms, no DIY, not an organiser.  Been playing with GPS devices since the early 2000s.

I think standardising on a service like RWGPS that provides multiple download options would be a great idea (for me at least).  But I do realise that there are some objections in principle - some people object to commercial services per se, and in practice - I imagine a club a/c on RWGPS would probably impose a big administrative burden for membership, and possibly have some privacy implications.  But the alternative of AUK developing and supporting its own route storage service I think would be a bad idea.  Not cost effective.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #273 on: 15 May, 2019, 11:35:43 am »
Nope - this was a GPX provided by the org but was their actual ridden track so the started and finished at home and rode to event start.

A few organisers who provide downloadable GPX files are in fact completely GPS-illiterate - their talents may lie elsewhere** but they're just trying to provide a complete service.  Unfortunately there's nothing to distinguish a perfectly valid (but stupid) GPX file from a sensible one.  Even downloading from RWGPS offers every end user that choice.

** or they may also be rubbish at tea-making, who knows.

As for age-related splits, pfft that's a non-story.  Retired people have more free time for such time-selfish endeavours and so the average is skewed.  The only way to improve that would be more shorter — i.e. less time required — events for busy young people, EDIT and possibly call them "sportives" to make them unattractive to older rides who would otherwise turn up anyway, since they often have the time (in order to maximise the averaging effect, it's just an observation on how the maths would work).
I'm not sure that flies. If events were held on working days, I might agree, but given they are mostly on weekends, whilst the middle of the bell curve may have family commitments, young people who have not yet had a family should be equally time rich on the weekends.

I think they generally have better things to do though - like hooking up with each other, or buying clothes, or decking the garden.  I'm always rather saddened by seeing someone who is young and beautiful putting in the audax miles.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #274 on: 15 May, 2019, 11:50:25 am »
But the alternative of AUK developing and supporting its own route storage service I think would be a bad idea.  Not cost effective.

What development?  It's just a static file(s) on a webserver, just like a routesheet.