Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Audax => Topic started by: quixoticgeek on 19 October, 2018, 03:05:12 pm
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I'm currently going through my wish list of Audaxes to do next year and working out which ones I can logistically do. I notice that there are a number of cases where there is 2 weeks between 2 400's, or 2 weeks between 2 600's. What do people feel is adequate recovery time between rides like this? Is it overly optimistic to try 600's with only 2 weeks between them? None of the rides I'm planning are excessively hilly, tho there is a high chance of substantial head winds.
J
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How fit you are and how hard you have to push to finish makes all the difference. In 2011, HK and I rode 2 x 1200 with a week between. The conditions/ circumstances for both were tough and I hadn't fully recovered before the second brevet. Accordingly it was harder to finish the second than would normally be the case.
Two weeks between 400s and 600s should be fine, provided you are fit/ fast enough before you start the first. If you have to drag yourself into the finish of the first using your fingernails, the second will be really tough.
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everyone's a bit different, but my rule of thumb is one day's recovery per each 100km. so six full days after the 600, or forty after the tcr (that's what i've noticed). perhaps it would not work for the peak/ultimate fitness, but for audaxes and general riding it's a good ballpark.
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Beware of testing muscles too soon. A week after a 1200k in 2006 I did a 57k followed by a 75k next day and tore a bit of my left quad. It still gives me the odd problem.
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A fortnight between long rides should be fine, IME.
Try to avoid starting any ride with a sleep or food debt.
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For a 400k I count 10 days, for a 600k slightly more as 14 days.
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I've still not got over the 600 I rode back in May.
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2 weeks is fine between 400s and 600s. Make sure you keep spinnng your legs in between also stretching and appropriate refuelling.
I have 12 days (hopefully) between finishing RAtN and my 600. That might be a push.
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I agree with the above points about the recovery time being dependent upon how much you are generally riding (ie cycling fitness), and how intense the effort is to complete your rides.
I've been riding a lot this past year, with at least a 200km most weekends. I've found that I can ride consecutive weekends with the longer rides without ill effect, but paying attention to eating well and getting good sleep is preferable.
On one instance I had a gap of 5 days between a moderate 450km ride and a 1000km ride. I don't think I was compromised in the latter ride.
Another factor is comfort on the bike. If you are not experiencing any discomfort after a ride, then it is much easier to sequence the rides close together.
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I am currently trying to work out how I can get my better half to thee consecutive weekends away!
Recovery should be fine for Audax riding but at my age race pace is what kills me. Riding on the limit for an hour is harder than a 200km in 10 hours, and takes more recovery. There again I never was that fast.
BB
Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk
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The really scientific answer would lie in knowing the TSS values from every ride (and other strenuous activity you do) and then keeping track of your ATL, CTL and TSB values.
Knowing the TSS for each activity requires either a power meter and knowledge of your FTP, or an HRM and something that calculates HR-TSS.
The general principle of TSS is that an hour at FTP = 100 TSS.
So 2 hours at 50% FTP also = 100TSS.
A typical 200km Audax I'm averaging about 50%-60% FTP, so if I'm moving for 10h of that then that's 500-600 TSS.
(As you get fitter you'll find that you need to go further/faster/etc to get the same TSS load as your fitness improves.)
With that you can work out CTL (Chronic Training Load = Fitness), ATL (Acute Training Load = Fatigue) and TSB (Training Stress Balance = Form).
(stolen from my post on LFGSS)
Most systems like PMC/F&F work on the same principles:-
Fitness is based on the last 42 days data.
Fatigue is based on the last 7 days data.
Form is yesterday's fitness - yesterday's fatigue
I do all of mine in a spreadsheet now. The tricky bit is accurately calculating the various TSS scores. The CTL/ATL figures are relatively easy:-
Today's CTL (fitness) is 41/42 of yesterday's fitness, plus 1/42 of today's total TSS score(s).
Today's ATL (fatigue) is 6/7 of yesterday's fatigue, plus 1/7 of today's total TSS score(s).
Today's TSB (form) is yesterday's CTL - yesterday's ATL
Here's a sample Google Docs spreadsheet I made to do it: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1e4I1V7fdzyzkvbtfjiuDTbqbifBfJyFn6fnu4DzC848/edit#gid=0
The point of training is to ramp up CTL, but not too fast that your ATL also builds up and leaves you knackered (big -ve TSB). Then you get to tapering where you will lose a bit of fitness (CTL) but lose more fatigue (ATL) and so you hit your target race/ride/whatever with a big +ve form (TSB).
Finally, here's my data for 2014-2016 plotted on a chart (PMC = Performance Management Chart):-
http://www.greenbank.org/misc/pmc2014_2016.png
(http://www.greenbank.org/misc/pmc2014_2016.png)
You can see me start to try and get fit from September 2014 as my daughter started school and I had a day off to beast myself. The blue (fitness) line starts to rise up nicely. It tailed off for Christmas, then a bit of an effort to kick it off again after the new year. The big fatigue spikes are Audaxes (Ditchling Devil in June I think). There's also another attempt to get fit in the first few months of 2016 but then it tails off and I lose a considerable chunk of my fitness before the big spike in late July which was the Mersey Roads 24h TT.
I had hoped to get my CTL up to >100, which means at least an hour at FTP every day (or 2 hours at 50% FTP every day). Never quite got there though.
(Mine is more complicated now as I'm mixing in running, swimming and cycling. Not all TSS are created equal!)
Anyway. This is more than the vast majority of Audaxers ever consider, but it's the scientific basis behind fitness, fatigue and form - which are the essential parts of recovery.
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I usually find my fatigue disappears within a week of 400s and 600s. I schedule them 2 weeks apart minimum as a matter of course. Before a 1000+ ride I like a 4 week gap from my last overnight ride. I am generally on the bike the day after a 400 or 600 but usually nothing much longer than 30km of a commute etc.
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2 weeks is fine between 400s and 600s. Make sure you keep spinnng your legs in between also stretching and appropriate refuelling.
I have 12 days (hopefully) between finishing RAtN and my 600. That might be a push.
Assuming my RatN effort is as full value as my Audaxes, I have 15-16 days between RatN and a 400, then 2 weeks until the first 600.
The really scientific answer would lie in knowing the TSS values from every ride (and other strenuous activity you do) and then keeping track of your ATL, CTL and TSB values.
Knowing the TSS for each activity requires either a power meter and knowledge of your FTP, or an HRM and something that calculates HR-TSS.
TBH, you had me at power meter, data, and sexy graph!
Anyway. This is more than the vast majority of Audaxers ever consider, but it's the scientific basis behind fitness, fatigue and form - which are the essential parts of recovery.
Your post has given me some really interesting info to go with, thank you! I'm hoping to have a power meter by the new year, I'm trying to get my life together so I can start serious training, I need something more structured than my turning left out the office and seeing where I end up before riding home. But I also need to get my nutrition sorted too, currently my diet is a bit of a horror show, sure I'm loosing weight, but I'm probably eating too much chocolate, and there is a general lack of green in my diet.
I'm putting together a menu of training sessions, with say 5-8 different work outs, that I can pick each day. I know if I try to make a schedule of x on Monday, Y on Tuesday etc... I won't stick to it, life, and work will get in the way, but if I can just turn left out of the office, ride out the city and hit shuffle on a training session, I've more chance of sticking to it.
I agree with the above points about the recovery time being dependent upon how much you are generally riding (ie cycling fitness), and how intense the effort is to complete your rides.
I've been riding a lot this past year, with at least a 200km most weekends. I've found that I can ride consecutive weekends with the longer rides without ill effect, but paying attention to eating well and getting good sleep is preferable.
In July I did 3 200's in 8 days, with a 300 on the 13th day. I didn't really feel any ill effects of it, tho my arse was a bit sore by the end of the 300. But that could have been rectified had I stopped to put some cream on, rather than pushing on as it's only 60km to go...
In September I did an 11 day tour, with 10 consecutive days of 100+, varying from 117km to 167km, which included some crazy stuff, like the 40km fasted ride at -4°C, the 20km fasted ride in shorts (leg warmers got soaked when I left them outside my bivvi bag in the rain), it was a holiday so I wasn't really pushing it, but it's giving me a good base to build on.
On one instance I had a gap of 5 days between a moderate 450km ride and a 1000km ride. I don't think I was compromised in the latter ride.
Another factor is comfort on the bike. If you are not experiencing any discomfort after a ride, then it is much easier to sequence the rides close together.
Yeah, I learnt the hard way that any slight discomfort on a short ride is going to be amplified big time on bigger rides. Part of my training is going to involve fettling my bike to the point of total comfort, or as close as I can get to it. I'm hoping that in another ~5kg or so of weight loss I'll be able to fit into some better shorts than the ones I have now. Currently decathlon are about the only place I can go to get shorts that fit me.
J
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Forgot to say, another thing for measuring fatigue is HR Variability (HRV).
https://philmaffetone.com/hrv/ (random article from google, can't find the original one I read about it in)
Simply put, the more fatigued you are the more regular your heart beat is.
For example, if your resting HR is 60bpm then that's 1 second (1000ms) per beat.
The most fatigued would mean the beats are exactly 1 second apart.
If you're nicely rested then the beats might be 950ms, 1025ms, 975ms, 950ms, 1050ms, ... but still averaging 1000ms per beat = 60bpm.
More modern Garmins and HRM straps can measure it (as do some other manufacturers). Some websites such as runalyze.com can do the stats for you:-
(http://www.greenbank.org/misc/hrv_footy.png)
More modern Garmins (especially the Forerunner watches) try to summarise it for you and use it in their 'how knackered you are' calculations when they tell you how long you need to rest after a specific activity. After a relatively heavy week (since I'm just getting back into it) and a 5.6km run followed by a 12km commute home on a heavy bike it's currently telling me "Recovery 16 hours - Train as usual" (I'll be doing another 5k run in about 12 hours...)
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Forgot to say, another thing for measuring fatigue is HR Variability (HRV).
https://philmaffetone.com/hrv/ (random article from google, can't find the original one I read about it in)
Simply put, the more fatigued you are the more regular your heart beat is.
For example, if your resting HR is 60bpm then that's 1 second (1000ms) per beat.
The most fatigued would mean the beats are exactly 1 second apart.
If you're nicely rested then the beats might be 950ms, 1025ms, 975ms, 950ms, 1050ms, ... but still averaging 1000ms per beat = 60bpm.
More modern Garmins and HRM straps can measure it (as do some other manufacturers). Some websites such as runalyze.com can do the stats for you:-
(http://www.greenbank.org/misc/hrv_footy.png)
More modern Garmins (especially the Forerunner watches) try to summarise it for you and use it in their 'how knackered you are' calculations when they tell you how long you need to rest after a specific activity. After a relatively heavy week (since I'm just getting back into it) and a 5.6km run followed by a 12km commute home on a heavy bike it's currently telling me "Recovery 16 hours - Train as usual" (I'll be doing another 5k run in about 12 hours...)
Ooh that's rather funky. Do you know if the Wahoo HRM's can do the same?
Exercise, bike riding, and juicy juicy data. Yay!
J
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Usually I find that one week is enough for recovery between 400km or 600km audax rides, but if the first ride is hard, the second will be tougher than usual. This doesn't matter that much as long as you can get round in the time limit, but in 2013 I made the mistake of riding the Buzzard 600km the weekend before the Mersey 24 hour TT. My legs felt fine on the time trial, but I had trouble staying awake and had to keep stopping for little sleeps all night resulting in a shorter distance than I would have liked in the 24 hours. Another week's recovery and I'd probably have been fine and would definitely have been ok for another audax ride.
I don't have a power meter or heart rate monitor so I have to simply ride according to how I feel. If I feel that I'm going too far into the red on an audax ride I just ease back a bit and have a bar or gel. I aim to ride at the maximum sustainable pace for whatever distance and hardness of event I am riding. I don't do fasting, but like to have a good breakfast (typically beans on toast) before riding and prefer to ride on energy bars and occasional gels during the event.
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It does depend on overall fitness - there are riders who seem to be able to knock out rides with impressive frequency. I've always left two weeks between events of 400k+ and I think I need that. I've ridden with riders who have ridden 600s on consecutive weekends who would normally leave me well behind and I've been able to keep up.
Those who talk about intensity have a good point. I raced the Sussex 24 hour trying to get a good overall distance and I wasn't properly recovered for PBP 6 weeks later.
For 300s, unless they've been especially hard, I can do another event the following weekend - I got round the super-hard Cambrian 4D the week after the Rough Diamond with no ill-effects from the previous ride. But I wouldn't have wanted to do a long event the weekend after an Elenydd or a hard Cambrian 300.
Two weeks apart is generally fine - it often happens with the way that PBP qualifiers land.
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2 weeks is fine between 400s and 600s. Make sure you keep spinnng your legs in between also stretching and appropriate refuelling.
I have 12 days (hopefully) between finishing RAtN and my 600. That might be a push.
I also forgot the National 12hr is the weekend before PBP. I’m not sure that combination is a particularly good idea.
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Dinnit gan on daft and yerl be reet. 8)
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2 weeks is fine between 400s and 600s. Make sure you keep spinnng your legs in between also stretching and appropriate refuelling.
I have 12 days (hopefully) between finishing RAtN and my 600. That might be a push.
I also forgot the National 12hr is the weekend before PBP. I’m not sure that combination is a particularly good idea.
It should be alright and better than the other way round. I thought the same about Mark Rigby's Highlands and Islands 1300km starting on the Isle of Arran the morning after the Mersey 24 hour in 2014, but I did ok on both rides, despite my legs being absolutely full of lactate on day 1 of the 1300. Fortunately we had a forced stop in Oban on the first night that gave me chance to recover.
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It does depend on overall fitness - there are riders who seem to be able to knock out rides with impressive frequency.
Well, yes. TG was knocking out close to a 400km every day for almost 3 years (give or take a few months off). He was, quite rightly, trying to the minimise intensity of those rides.
It took him a long time to build up to being able to do that though.
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The really scientific answer would lie in knowing the TSS values from every ride (and other strenuous activity you do) and then keeping track of your ATL, CTL and TSB values.
--Epic Snip--
Anyway. This is more than the vast majority of Audaxers ever consider, but it's the scientific basis behind fitness, fatigue and form - which are the essential parts of recovery.
Ah! So that's what the Strava Form and Fitness graph page is about!
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"How fit you are and how hard you have to push to finish makes all the difference."
This.
I set my 10mi PB after racing TCR4 but when I tried a similar thing this year and raced a 50mi TT after TransAm I was toast and just rolled around. Couldn't be bothered.
Physically I could make the power, but mentally I couldn't will myself to keep suffering for more than 10mi.
If you've dug deep mentally, you've really got to want to finish well in the next event as any hint of you thinking "it's not so important" will have you off the bike quicker than you can reapply chamois cream.
The pace you're going for an RatN and a 600k are likely pretty similar so unless you've really gone deep in RatN you should cope well with the 600k.
I'm in a similar boat with RatN and then 4x600s entered a week or two afterwards, one per week, including that really flat Pendle 600...
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I'm in a similar boat with RatN and then 4x600s entered a week or two afterwards, one per week, including that really flat Pendle 600...
Hey! Hadn't spotted your name in the list there. Yay! Gonna get a chance to not only meet you at last, but to ride with you, at least for the first 50m before I'm spat out the back of the group again...
J
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Yeah, I used my charm and good looks to sneak in. ;)
The RatN start town should be a little less hectic than TCR, although I'm pretty good at turning everything into a last minute panic.
Then again it's NL so there's the coffee shop option for relaxing pre-race. :)
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Yeah, I used my charm and good looks to sneak in. ;)
The RatN start town should be a little less hectic than TCR, although I'm pretty good at turning everything into a last minute panic.
Then again it's NL so there's the coffee shop option for relaxing pre-race. :)
In Amerongen? *giggle*
J
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Fitness aside, I DNS'ed (with apologies) from the BCM last year because having just done the Brevet Cymru, I simply didn't fancy the logistical exercise again so soon.
I know some of you would ride one every weekend if you could, but one every 1.5 months is about my limit.
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Have created a thread in the racing section for RatN, as it appears there's a fair number of us from YACF racing:
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=109961.0
J
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The general principle of TSS is that an hour at FTP = 100 TSS.
So 2 hours at 50% FTP also = 100TSS.
This specific detail is incorrect.
TSS = IF^2 * hours * 100.
So your example of 50% FTP * 2 hours is 50 TSS. For 2h to be the same TSS as 1h at 100% FTP you're looking at an IF of around about 0.7.
The physiological cost of higher intensity is not linear, which is reflected by this formula.
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It would be easier to answer the question for racing, as the objective is clear - to go as fast as you can. Rules of thumb are as others describe: say 1-2 weeks for a 400 or 600 and 2-4 weeks to get over a 12 or a 24, but it varies by individual.
For audax you may not care about going as fast as possible, but be content to plod round at the time limit. If that is the aim, your body could probably do the next one more or less immediately. It's just like doing something like the TCR where you just keep on doing big distances day after day.
The real limiter is mental: whether you will be prepared to do it - how you feel to be back on your bike for another ride. There's only one way to find that out!
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The real limiter is mental: whether you will be prepared to do it - how you feel to be back on your bike for another ride. There's only one way to find that out!
Have to agree. I find that a lot of long rides in short space of time often results in a long period of not much riding at all, simply because I can't be bothered any more!
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Another vote for depends who you are. I’ve done the following over a 9 week period, working a full time job in the NHS commuting by bike when not pedalling brevets;
Summer Arrow (500+ km)
600km brevet
1200km brevet USA
1400km brevet UK
1200km brevet Spain
As Hippy said the ‘how much do I want this’ is very important as well as the physical capacity to carry out this type of riding. Agree that it’s the mental bit that gets the biggest bashing
Similar crazy escapades have been repeated since generally because my Director Sportif aka Timpsie is a total patch chasing slave driver. N
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'scuse the thread necromancy...
Originally I started this thread about recovery times from 400+ events. What do people feel if 200's are thrown in the mix? I'm wondering if I'm being an idiot trying to do:
300k
8 days
200k
5 days
300k
14 days
400k
~9 days (depends on when you count the ride finishing...)
1890km (RATN)
12 days
400k
7 days
200k
7 days
600k
12 days
600k
12 days
200k
20 days
TCR
The Increase in the length of RatN by 200km means I no longer have the nice 16 days (1 per 100km), between it and the 400k (Ronde van Texel).
Trying to complete my RRtY (3 months left), trying to complete an SR series, and trying to do RatN,*AND* the TCR. I'm questioning my sanity...
Current HRV numbers are parasympathetic 8-10 most days, I've had a few days in sympathetic <5, but they have all been on days where work related stress has been through the roof.
Power meter hasn't yet arrived, so I can't properly track TSS, and associated useful stuff yet.
J
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I had no qualms entering a 400 the week after my 600 and considering another 400 on the 3rd weekend.
I generally feel ok by the next weekend except for when I do a 1000.
Only you can know how you feel the following weekend. But a 400 14 days after a 400 should be ok unless the first one is the porkers in wessex.
edit. looking at the prgramme I would have doubts about the 40 so soon after 1890km, and also the 200km in the 2 week gap between the 400km and the 600km.
I know after a 1000km ride I don't want to ride at all for about 2 weeks, I certainly wouldn't want to do a 400 so soon.
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Can't see how RRTY and an SR would make your calendar that crowded. RRTY only enforces one ride of 200km or greater per month. Plus the rides for the SR can also count for RRTY.
Again depends how fast you recover, how hard you push during the events, and whether mental burnout is a possibility. On the Ratn you are likely to be doing 300km + back to back days with only a few hours sleep between. So nothing mad about your schedule if that's what you want to try. Just be wary of getting mentally burnt out ahead of the important events in your list.
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Can't see how RRTY and an SR would make your calendar that crowded. RRTY only enforces one ride of 200km or greater per month. Plus the rides for the SR can also count for RRTY.
I've not yet done a ride longer than 312km. I tried a 600 last year, but bailed at the end of day 1. So by sticking the 200's in on the 1st day of the month, I can bank RRtY, which takes the pressure off on the 400's and 600's, so I don't over do it, and injure myself to avoid wasting the effort I've already done.
Again depends how fast you recover, how hard you push during the events, and whether mental burnout is a possibility. On the Ratn you are likely to be doing 300km + back to back days with only a few hours sleep between. So nothing mad about your schedule if that's what you want to try. Just be wary of getting mentally burnt out ahead of the important events in your list.
My RatN plan currently has 280km per day as the aim. My target is to get round in the limit, Jasmijn Muller is going to win, it's just a case of how far behind I'll be. As long as I'm inside the time limit, I'll be happy.
J
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I think it’s a good idea to get your 200km rides in early in the month for RRTY to take the pressure off the longer rides and also to give excellent training for them. You’ve got some tough, long rides there so you’ll need to train a bit. Ideally I would ride a 200+km ride every weekend, but other commitments usually limit me to 3 per month. This year the main focus for me is PBP and I’m hopefully riding 3 of each qualifying distance over the next few months plus two 1000km rides before PBP. I am more concerned about losing fitness by leaving too long a gap between rides than allowing enough time for recovery. Even doing 3 x RRTY at the same time I managed a 4 week no cycling gap in January/February and my fitness did suffer and is only just back on the way up again now.
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It takes all kinds of people.... I think your schedule looks mental, but then I am only aiming for an SR, PBP and Normandicat ;-)
For me your schedule would just decimate my home life and my general stance is for cycling to enhance life rather than become it, but I also appreciate some people have more time and like cycling more than me!
My only 'advice' would be not to beat yourself up if you don't make it or find it too tough - you can probably make your big goals anyway. I was reading themanfromicon the other day (Gavin Peacock) https://rpm90.com/2019/03/12/riding-the-transcontinental-race-an-interview-with-gavin-peacock/ (https://rpm90.com/2019/03/12/riding-the-transcontinental-race-an-interview-with-gavin-peacock/) about training a little LESS for TCR this time around...
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It takes all kinds of people.... I think your schedule looks mental, but then I am only aiming for an SR, PBP and Normandicat ;-)
For me your schedule would just decimate my home life and my general stance is for cycling to enhance life rather than become it, but I also appreciate some people have more time and like cycling more than me!
I'm single, I live alone, and I'm soon to be unemployed. I basically have no plan beyond ride, eat, sleep, repeat...
My only 'advice' would be not to beat yourself up if you don't make it or find it too tough - you can probably make your big goals anyway. I was reading themanfromicon the other day (Gavin Peacock) https://rpm90.com/2019/03/12/riding-the-transcontinental-race-an-interview-with-gavin-peacock/ (https://rpm90.com/2019/03/12/riding-the-transcontinental-race-an-interview-with-gavin-peacock/) about training a little LESS for TCR this time around...
I shall have a read.
My physio has me on a training plan which basically consists of 2 sets of interval training each week (HIIT or similar), 1 session of circuit training concentrating on core strength and stability, and then what ever Audax, long ride I feel like on each weekend. It kinda scares me how little millage I am doing. I know I'm getting stronger, my speeds are up on various strava segments, but when you read about people like Kristoff doing 10-20Mm in the 6 months before a TCR, I wonder if I am doing things right.
I'm trying to find the balance between over training, and training enough.
J
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Don't base your training off what other people do, base it off what works for you. Some people love a high-mileage diet whilst others need more intense work and less hours to avoid injury (I don't think any of us get close to over training).
I'm a trifle concerned as to why your physio is giving you training advice ? it's a different skillset.
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It kinda scares me how little millage I am doing. I know I'm getting stronger, my speeds are up on various strava segments, but when you read about people like Kristoff doing 10-20Mm in the 6 months before a TCR, I wonder if I am doing things right.
I'm trying to find the balance between over training, and training enough.
J
Don't forget that there are diminishing returns to this (even if you ignore over-training problems). Kristoff won't get twice the benefit from doing 20Mm compared to 10Mm in 6 months.
tl/dr - don't worry!
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I’d say your biggest risk of riding too many 200+ km rides is getting bored of being on the bike, especially at full value pace.
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Agree re your physio - s/he seems to give you a stream of questionable advice! In particular HIIT intervals in March in unusual for someone focusing on long distance.
Overall, I think your schedule has too much in it and you are aiming at too many potentially conflicting goals using conflicting methods. Trying to do both intensity with your intervals and volume is risky. The trap is that you will be too tired from your intensity stuff to do more than plod round your long rides. And too tired from your long stuff to do your intense stuff properly.
Regading your sequence, I think you will be fine until you get into the second day of RATN. At that point you will probably feel that 400 still in your legs and slow down to a plod sooner than you would have done otherwise. So I would ditch that first 400, or make it a 200 - or better still - a quick 100.
The 400 after RATN might be ok or it might not - depends on your recovery rate. If it was a week later it would be far less risky.
The rest looks fine, just you might decide that you don't want to do one of the 600s. You would go better on TCR if you dialled back the volume and put in more fast 4-6 hour rides.
If I were you I'd have a look at training plans on places like the UMCA website. Simon Doughty's book on Long Distance Cycling has lots of good input on how to structure a season (although it's a bit out of date now in some respects).
Regarding Kristof, remember that other approaches work. In particular, James won TCR that last two years while never doing any rides longer than 6 hours.
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Don't base your training off what other people do, base it off what works for you. Some people love a high-mileage diet whilst others need more intense work and less hours to avoid injury (I don't think any of us get close to over training).
True. In January I had a number of injuries from over training.
I'm a trifle concerned as to why your physio is giving you training advice ? it's a different skillset.
Because I sought out a physio who also does ultra distance events. I was fed up with medical professionals that when I tell them I just did a 200k bike ride look at me like I've done the impossible. They understand what I'm doing. There's 4 physios there, 3 of which do Ironman triathlons. They also have a dietitian and training coaches on the books. It's a Dutch physio company, so they do a lot more than a typical UK NHS physio does. They did my VO2 max test, It's basically a sports science lab, crossed with a physio, crossed with a gym, where some of the services are covered by my health insurance.
Don't forget that there are diminishing returns to this (even if you ignore over-training problems). Kristoff won't get twice the benefit from doing 20Mm compared to 10Mm in 6 months.
tl/dr - don't worry!
This is true. Its interesting the contrast in training done by Kristoff and James. Kristoff seems to concentrate on huge milage, lots of time in the saddle. James seems to concentrate on less, but at a much higher intensity. He claims he doesn't do any training rides beyond 6 hours...
I’d say your biggest risk of riding too many 200+ km rides is getting bored of being on the bike, especially at full value pace.
Not a problem. Riding my bike puts me at peace. It's the only thing that keeps me sane. I was not nice to be around the 10 days I was forced to not ride while recovering from injury. My bike is my shrink, my companion, my gym, & my transport.
My 200k DIY's tend to be a case of looking at the weather forecast, working out which direction the wind is coming from, and riding with the wind. Ride 200k, find a station, train home. I'm in a foreign country, so it's all new and interesting to me. Sure the first 10-20km getting out of the city is getting a bit repetitive, but as a proportion of the whole 200, it's fine. Couple this with the Veloviewer tile game, which gives me additional purpose to my rides, and reason to seek out new roads.
The Interval sessions on the Ringvaart however, I'm kinda bored of those roads. But I put on a podcast, or an audio book, and away I go.
J
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Agree re your physio - s/he seems to give you a stream of questionable advice! In particular HIIT intervals in March in unusual for someone focusing on long distance.
The rationale behind this is that I have the endurance. I did the festive 500 in under 3 days, I'm pumping out regular 200's without issue, the problem I have is I'm *SLOW*. I've been Lantern Rouge on all bar 1 audax. In order to make enough time on a 600 to sleep, or on the TCR, I need to get faster. Ideally I'd like to get my moving average up to about 22.5kph, from the current 19.4-19.8kph. So the intervals are about building strength, improving power. Endurance I've got, it's speed I lack.
Overall, I think your schedule has too much in it and you are aiming at too many potentially conflicting goals using conflicting methods. You are trying to do both intensity with your intervals and volume. That doesn't work. The trap is that you will be too tired from your intensity stuff to do more than plod round your long rides. And too tired from your long stuff to do your intense stuff properly.
Interesting. How can I improve my speed/power/strength without doing intensity workouts?
Regarding your sequence, I think you will be fine until you get into the second day of RATN. At that point you will probably feel that 400 still in your legs and slow down to a plod sooner than you would have done otherwise. So I would ditch that first 400, or make it a 200 - or better still - a quick 100.
The 400 after RATN might be ok or it might not - depends on your recovery rate. If it was a week later it would be far less risky.
The rest is fine, just you might decide that you don't want to do one of the 600s. You would go better on TCR if you dialled back the volume and put in more fast 4-6 hour rides.
The 600's I've been thinking about, I don't need to do both of them, one is Mooi Nederland, which is an essentially flat 600 in .NL. The other is BPB, which is a bit lumpier, being mostly in Northern France. I DNF'd BPB last year, so kinda have unfinished business with it.
The reason there's 2 400's and 2 600's in the list is in case I DNF one.
The first 400 finishes at 1200 on the 21st of April, RatN starts 0800 on 1st of may. I was planning on considering the gap between the two as taper.
When you say fast 4-6hr rides, what do you consider fast in this case?
If I were you I'd have a look at training plans on places like the UMCA website. Simon Doughty's book on Long Distance Cycling has lots of good input on how to structure a season (although it's a bit out of date now in some respects).
Shall see if I can track down a copy.
J
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My coach advises me on training.
My physio fixes muscular/joint issues.
My osteopath loosens off my long-term back issues.
My pilates teacher bollocks me for not stretching enough.
It's all interlinked but I'm not convinced by the jack-of-all-trades approach.
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Interesting. How can I improve my speed/power/strength without doing intensity workouts?
1. Sweet spot intervals
2. Ditch most or, even better, all of the audaxes and replace with shorter, faster rides, 1-6 hours. If the issue is that you are slow, the audaxes are the wrong approach as they are giving you more practice in riding slowly.
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Just to add - is being slow cycling speed or stopped time? They often correlate in that slow audax riders tend to faff a lot, while faster ones frequently bounce controls. But a quick win in addressing your overall average speed - which is what counts - is to reduce the stopped time to a minimum. For most people that will give much bigger gains more quickly than any training method ever could!
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Just to add - is being slow cycling speed or stopped time? They often correlate in that slow audax riders tend to faff a lot, while faster ones frequently bounce controls. But a quick win in addressing your overall average speed - which is what counts - is to reduce the stopped time to a minimum. For most people that will give much bigger gains more quickly than any training method ever could!
I've been working on my faff to forward ratio. Its improving, it could be better. Over winter I've been using controls as a chance to defrost feet, and eat, as eating on the move with thick gloves and winter conditions is aub optimal. I'm hoping now it's warming up, it'll improve.
Tomorrow's 300 is going to be an interesting test to see where I'm at. It's the first Audax of the year with double digit temperatures, and without force 6+ winds. It should be a relatively representative example of a 300. I'd like to get round in about 17 hours all up. Will see what I manage.
J
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Your 400 is too soon after the RaTN. You're also probably doing too much, generally, given the % of your max that you're riding at to get round in time.
This (http://www.aukweb.net/results/archive/2016/listride/?Rider=8651)was my 2016 season. I also DNF several rides in between (recurrent cystitis, a crash, a n00b-ish off route error). I didn't enjoy riding a bike after it. For almost 2 years.
Are this year's big goals worth killing the fun of cycling?
If I were you (and I kind of am- I'm fatter and therefore slower as well as older than I used to be) I'd do an audax the first weekend of the month, and no other long rides. You need to get faster more than you need to carry on riding a long way slowly. Stop riding alone and find a group a bit faster than you, and try and hold on. Every week you'll hold on for longer until you need to find a new group. This will make the biggest improvements in your speed in the shortest time, and lack of speed is why you DNF. This is more effective than HIIT intervals.
(I'm not a physio, or a sports scientist, or a coach, but I bet you €500 if you did that it'd work).
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I need to pay attention to this wisdom.
I've been wattbike training and strength training (pilates as well) over the past three months. I've really ramped down on the junk miles and I hope this won't come back to haunt me.
I saw the greatest gains from sweetspot. It hasn't recently translated into FTP gains as I've been slightly blown off course by trying to fit in extra vo2 sessions and been too tired to do the test properly! The moral of this story is pick a training plan from training peaks and stick to it!
In terms of audaxes, it takes me 2-4 days to recover fully from 200. I'm currently trying to stop myself from entering the Shark as it's a week before my 300 qualifier.
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Your 400 is too soon after the RaTN. You're also probably doing too much, generally, given the % of your max that you're riding at to get round in time.
This (http://www.aukweb.net/results/archive/2016/listride/?Rider=8651)was my 2016 season. I also DNF several rides in between (recurrent cystitis, a crash, a n00b-ish off route error). I didn't enjoy riding a bike after it. For almost 2 years.
Well the 300 in March was a DNF, my knee gave me major issues, and I bailed at the 210 point, which by the time I got to a hotel, was 220 all up.
I decided not to do the 400 at the weekend, I helped with the start and finish, and did a DIY 200 the day before (10:29 for 203km, including stops). I've given up on the idea of a SR series this year, just want to do the RRtY rides. I'm keeping the 400 in May (Ronde van Texel), and the second 600 in June in the calendar, but if I miss one or both of them I won't be too upset.
Are this year's big goals worth killing the fun of cycling?
If I were you (and I kind of am- I'm fatter and therefore slower as well as older than I used to be) I'd do an audax the first weekend of the month, and no other long rides. You need to get faster more than you need to carry on riding a long way slowly. Stop riding alone and find a group a bit faster than you, and try and hold on. Every week you'll hold on for longer until you need to find a new group. This will make the biggest improvements in your speed in the shortest time, and lack of speed is why you DNF. This is more effective than HIIT intervals.
(I'm not a physio, or a sports scientist, or a coach, but I bet you €500 if you did that it'd work).
Well I haven't found a group... so much as founded one... I'm running women only group rides in the Netherlands, as part of the NGNM Strava club.
My average speeds recently have been going up, I don't know if this is me getting fitter, me swapping the tyres for GP5000, or fortunate wind conditions. I've also managed to massively improve a couple of strava segments on my training route, taking previous PB's of >11 mins, and setting 8:06 in one direction, and 8:45 in the other direction.
Just hoping my arse, legs, knees, body in general hold together for RATN!
Thanks everyone for your help and advice.
J