Audax & Recovery time

[quixoticgeek]

Yeah, I used my charm and good looks to sneak in.
The RatN start town should be a little less hectic than TCR, although I'm pretty good at turning everything into a last minute panic.
Then again it's NL so there's the coffee shop option for relaxing pre-race.

In Amerongen? *giggle*

J

[Peat]

Fitness aside, I DNS'ed (with apologies) from the BCM last year because having just done the Brevet Cymru, I simply didn't fancy the logistical exercise again so soon.

I know some of you would ride one every weekend if you could, but one every 1.5 months is about my limit.

[quixoticgeek]

Have created a thread in the racing section for RatN, as it appears there's a fair number of us from YACF racing:

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=109961.0

J

[simonp]

The general principle of TSS is that an hour at FTP = 100 TSS.

So 2 hours at 50% FTP also = 100TSS.

This specific detail is incorrect.

TSS = IF^2 * hours * 100.

So your example of 50% FTP * 2 hours is 50 TSS.  For 2h to be the same TSS as 1h at 100% FTP you're looking at an IF of around about 0.7.

The physiological cost of higher intensity is not linear, which is reflected by this formula.

[Frank9755]

It would be easier to answer the question for racing, as the objective is clear - to go as fast as you can.  Rules of thumb are as others describe: say 1-2 weeks for a 400 or 600 and 2-4 weeks to get over a 12 or a 24, but it varies by individual. 

For audax you may not care about going as fast as possible, but be content to plod round at the time limit.  If that is the aim, your body could probably do the next one more or less immediately. It's just like doing something like the TCR where you just keep on doing big distances day after day. 

The real limiter is mental: whether you will be prepared to do it - how you feel to be back on your bike for another ride.  There's only one way to find that out!

[zakalwe]

The real limiter is mental: whether you will be prepared to do it - how you feel to be back on your bike for another ride.  There's only one way to find that out!

Have to agree.  I find that a lot of long rides in short space of time often results in a long period of not much riding at all, simply because I can't be bothered any more!

[HK]

Another vote for depends who you are. I’ve done the following over a 9 week period, working a full time job in the NHS commuting by bike when not pedalling brevets;

Summer Arrow (500+ km)
600km brevet
1200km brevet USA
1400km brevet UK
1200km brevet Spain

As Hippy said the ‘how much do I want this’ is very important as well as the physical capacity to carry out this type of riding. Agree that it’s the mental bit that gets the biggest bashing 

Similar crazy escapades have been repeated since generally because my Director Sportif aka Timpsie is a total patch chasing slave driver. N

[quixoticgeek]

'scuse the thread necromancy...

Originally I started this thread about recovery times from 400+ events. What do people feel if 200's are thrown in the mix? I'm wondering if I'm being an idiot trying to do:

300k
8 days
200k
5 days
300k
14 days
400k
~9 days (depends on when you count the ride finishing...)
1890km (RATN)
12 days
400k
7 days
200k
7 days
600k
12 days
600k
12 days
200k
20 days
TCR

The Increase in the length of RatN by 200km means I no longer have the nice 16 days (1 per 100km), between it and the 400k (Ronde van Texel).

Trying to complete my RRtY (3 months left), trying to complete an SR series, and trying to do RatN,*AND* the TCR. I'm questioning my sanity...

Current HRV numbers are parasympathetic 8-10 most days, I've had a few days in sympathetic <5, but they have all been on days where work related stress has been through the roof.

Power meter hasn't yet arrived, so I can't properly track TSS, and associated useful stuff yet.

J

[Wycombewheeler]

I had no qualms entering a 400 the week after my 600 and considering another 400 on the 3rd weekend.

I generally feel ok by the next weekend except for when I do a 1000.

Only you can know how you feel the following weekend. But a 400 14 days after a 400 should be ok unless the first one is the porkers in wessex.

edit. looking at the prgramme I would have doubts about the 40 so soon after 1890km, and also the 200km in the 2 week gap between the 400km and the 600km.

I know after a 1000km ride I don't want to ride at all for about 2 weeks, I certainly wouldn't want to do a 400 so soon.

[Phil W]

Can't see how RRTY and an SR would make your calendar that crowded. RRTY only enforces one ride of 200km or greater per month.  Plus the rides for the SR can also count for RRTY.

Again depends how fast you recover, how hard you push during the events, and whether mental burnout is a possibility.   On the Ratn you are likely to be doing 300km + back to back days with only a few hours sleep between.  So nothing mad about your schedule if that's what you want to try.  Just be wary of getting mentally burnt out ahead of the important events in your list.

[quixoticgeek]

Can't see how RRTY and an SR would make your calendar that crowded. RRTY only enforces one ride of 200km or greater per month.  Plus the rides for the SR can also count for RRTY.

I've not yet done a ride longer than 312km. I tried a 600 last year, but bailed at the end of day 1. So by sticking the 200's in on the 1st day of the month, I can bank RRtY, which takes the pressure off on the 400's and 600's, so I don't over do it, and injure myself to avoid wasting the effort I've already done.

Again depends how fast you recover, how hard you push during the events, and whether mental burnout is a possibility.   On the Ratn you are likely to be doing 300km + back to back days with only a few hours sleep between.  So nothing mad about your schedule if that's what you want to try.  Just be wary of getting mentally burnt out ahead of the important events in your list.

My RatN plan currently has 280km per day as the aim. My target is to get round in the limit, Jasmijn Muller is going to win, it's just a case of how far behind I'll be. As long as I'm inside the time limit, I'll be happy.

J

[SR Steve]

I think it’s a good idea to get your 200km rides in early in the month for RRTY to take the pressure off the longer rides and also to give excellent training for them. You’ve got some tough, long rides there so you’ll need to train a bit. Ideally I would ride a 200+km ride every weekend, but other commitments usually limit me to 3 per month. This year the main focus for me is PBP and I’m hopefully riding 3 of each qualifying distance over the next few months plus two 1000km rides before PBP. I am more concerned about losing fitness by leaving too long a gap between rides than allowing enough time for recovery. Even doing 3 x RRTY at the same time I managed a 4 week no cycling gap in January/February and my fitness did suffer and is only just back on the way up again now.

[alotronic]

It takes all kinds of people.... I think your schedule looks mental, but then I am only aiming for an SR, PBP and Normandicat ;-)

For me your schedule would just decimate my home life and my general stance is for cycling to enhance life rather than become it, but I also appreciate some people have more time and like cycling more than me!

My only 'advice' would be not to beat yourself up if you don't make it or find it too tough - you can probably make your big goals anyway. I was reading themanfromicon the other day (Gavin Peacock) https://rpm90.com/2019/03/12/riding-the-transcontinental-race-an-interview-with-gavin-peacock/ about training a little LESS for TCR this time around...

[quixoticgeek]

It takes all kinds of people.... I think your schedule looks mental, but then I am only aiming for an SR, PBP and Normandicat ;-)

For me your schedule would just decimate my home life and my general stance is for cycling to enhance life rather than become it, but I also appreciate some people have more time and like cycling more than me!

I'm single, I live alone, and I'm soon to be unemployed. I basically have no plan beyond ride, eat, sleep, repeat...

My only 'advice' would be not to beat yourself up if you don't make it or find it too tough - you can probably make your big goals anyway. I was reading themanfromicon the other day (Gavin Peacock) https://rpm90.com/2019/03/12/riding-the-transcontinental-race-an-interview-with-gavin-peacock/ about training a little LESS for TCR this time around...

I shall have a read.

My physio has me on a training plan which basically consists of 2 sets of interval training each week (HIIT or similar), 1 session of circuit training concentrating on core strength and stability, and then what ever Audax, long ride I feel like on each weekend. It kinda scares me how little millage I am doing. I know I'm getting stronger, my speeds are up on various strava segments, but when you read about people like Kristoff doing 10-20Mm in the 6 months before a TCR, I wonder if I am doing things right.

I'm trying to find the balance between over training, and training enough.

J

[rob]

Don't base your training off what other people do, base it off what works for you.   Some people love a high-mileage diet whilst others need more intense work and less hours to avoid injury (I don't think any of us get close to over training).

I'm a trifle concerned as to why your physio is giving you training advice ?   it's a different skillset.

[mattc]

It kinda scares me how little millage I am doing. I know I'm getting stronger, my speeds are up on various strava segments, but when you read about people like Kristoff doing 10-20Mm in the 6 months before a TCR, I wonder if I am doing things right.

I'm trying to find the balance between over training, and training enough.

J

Don't forget that there are diminishing returns to this (even if you ignore over-training problems). Kristoff won't get twice the benefit from doing 20Mm compared to 10Mm in 6 months.

tl/dr - don't worry!

[grams]

I’d say your biggest risk of riding too many 200+ km rides is getting bored of being on the bike, especially at full value pace.

[Frank9755]

Agree re your physio - s/he seems to give you a stream of questionable advice!  In particular HIIT intervals in March in unusual for someone focusing on long distance. 

Overall, I think your schedule has too much in it and you are aiming at too many potentially conflicting goals using conflicting methods.   Trying to do both intensity with your intervals and volume is risky.  The trap is that you will be too tired from your intensity stuff to do more than plod round your long rides.  And too tired from your long stuff to do your intense stuff properly.

Regading your sequence, I think you will be fine until you get into the second day of RATN.   At that point you will probably feel that 400 still in your legs and slow down to a plod sooner than you would have done otherwise.  So I would ditch that first 400, or make it a 200 - or better still - a quick 100. 

The 400 after RATN might be ok or it might not - depends on your recovery rate.  If it was a week later it would be far less risky.

The rest looks fine, just you might decide that you don't want to do one of the 600s.  You would go better on TCR if you dialled back the volume and put in more fast 4-6 hour rides.

If I were you I'd have a look at training plans on places like the UMCA website.  Simon Doughty's book on Long Distance Cycling has lots of good input on how to structure a season (although it's a bit out of date now in some respects). 

Regarding Kristof, remember that other approaches work.  In particular, James won TCR that last two years while never doing any rides longer than 6 hours.

[quixoticgeek]

Don't base your training off what other people do, base it off what works for you.   Some people love a high-mileage diet whilst others need more intense work and less hours to avoid injury (I don't think any of us get close to over training).

True. In January I had a number of injuries from over training.

I'm a trifle concerned as to why your physio is giving you training advice ?   it's a different skillset.

Because I sought out a physio who also does ultra distance events. I was fed up with medical professionals that when I tell them I just did a 200k bike ride look at me like I've done the impossible. They understand what I'm doing. There's 4 physios there, 3 of which do Ironman triathlons. They also have a dietitian and training coaches on the books. It's a Dutch physio company, so they do a lot more than a typical UK NHS physio does. They did my VO2 max test, It's basically a sports science lab, crossed with a physio, crossed with a gym, where some of the services are covered by my health insurance.

Don't forget that there are diminishing returns to this (even if you ignore over-training problems). Kristoff won't get twice the benefit from doing 20Mm compared to 10Mm in 6 months.

tl/dr - don't worry!

This is true. Its interesting the contrast in training done by Kristoff and James. Kristoff seems to concentrate on huge milage, lots of time in the saddle. James seems to concentrate on less, but at a much higher intensity. He claims he doesn't do any training rides beyond 6 hours...

I’d say your biggest risk of riding too many 200+ km rides is getting bored of being on the bike, especially at full value pace.

Not a problem. Riding my bike puts me at peace. It's the only thing that keeps me sane. I was not nice to be around the 10 days I was forced to not ride while recovering from injury. My bike is my shrink, my companion, my gym, & my transport.

My 200k DIY's tend to be a case of looking at the weather forecast, working out which direction the wind is coming from, and riding with the wind. Ride 200k, find a station, train home. I'm in a foreign country, so it's all new and interesting to me. Sure the first 10-20km getting out of the city is getting a bit repetitive, but as a proportion of the whole 200, it's fine. Couple this with the Veloviewer tile game, which gives me additional purpose to my rides, and reason to seek out new roads.

The Interval sessions on the Ringvaart however, I'm kinda bored of those roads. But I put on a podcast, or an audio book, and away I go.

J

[quixoticgeek]

Agree re your physio - s/he seems to give you a stream of questionable advice!  In particular HIIT intervals in March in unusual for someone focusing on long distance.

The rationale behind this is that I have the endurance. I did the festive 500 in under 3 days, I'm pumping out regular 200's without issue, the problem I have is I'm *SLOW*. I've been Lantern Rouge on all bar 1 audax. In order to make enough time on a 600 to sleep, or on the TCR, I need to get faster. Ideally I'd like to get my moving average up to about 22.5kph, from the current 19.4-19.8kph. So the intervals are about building strength, improving power. Endurance I've got, it's speed I lack.

Overall, I think your schedule has too much in it and you are aiming at too many potentially conflicting goals using conflicting methods.   You are trying to do both intensity with your intervals and volume.  That doesn't work.  The trap is that you will be too tired from your intensity stuff to do more than plod round your long rides.  And too tired from your long stuff to do your intense stuff properly.

Interesting. How can I improve my speed/power/strength without doing intensity workouts?

Regarding your sequence, I think you will be fine until you get into the second day of RATN.   At that point you will probably feel that 400 still in your legs and slow down to a plod sooner than you would have done otherwise.  So I would ditch that first 400, or make it a 200 - or better still - a quick 100. 

The 400 after RATN might be ok or it might not - depends on your recovery rate.  If it was a week later it would be far less risky.

The rest is fine, just you might decide that you don't want to do one of the 600s.  You would go better on TCR if you dialled back the volume and put in more fast 4-6 hour rides.

The 600's I've been thinking about, I don't need to do both of them, one is Mooi Nederland, which is an essentially flat 600 in .NL. The other is BPB, which is a bit lumpier, being mostly in Northern France. I DNF'd BPB last year, so kinda have unfinished business with it.

The reason there's 2 400's and 2 600's in the list is in case I DNF one.

The first 400 finishes at 1200 on the 21st of April, RatN starts 0800 on 1st of may. I was planning on considering the gap between the two as taper.

When you say fast 4-6hr rides, what do you consider fast in this case?

If I were you I'd have a look at training plans on places like the UMCA website.  Simon Doughty's book on Long Distance Cycling has lots of good input on how to structure a season (although it's a bit out of date now in some respects).

Shall see if I can track down a copy.

J

[rob]

My coach advises me on training.

My physio fixes muscular/joint issues.

My osteopath loosens off my long-term back issues.

My pilates teacher bollocks me for not stretching enough.

It's all interlinked but I'm not convinced by the jack-of-all-trades approach.

[Frank9755]

Interesting. How can I improve my speed/power/strength without doing intensity workouts?

1. Sweet spot intervals
2. Ditch most or, even better, all of the audaxes and replace with shorter, faster rides, 1-6 hours.  If the issue is that you are slow, the audaxes are the wrong approach as they are giving you more practice in riding slowly.   

[Frank9755]

Just to add - is being slow cycling speed or stopped time? They often correlate in that slow audax riders tend to faff a lot, while faster ones frequently bounce controls.  But a quick win in addressing your overall average speed - which is what counts - is to reduce the stopped time to a minimum.  For most people that will give much bigger gains more quickly than any training method ever could!

[quixoticgeek]

Just to add - is being slow cycling speed or stopped time? They often correlate in that slow audax riders tend to faff a lot, while faster ones frequently bounce controls.  But a quick win in addressing your overall average speed - which is what counts - is to reduce the stopped time to a minimum.  For most people that will give much bigger gains more quickly than any training method ever could!

I've been working on my faff to forward ratio. Its improving, it could be better. Over winter I've been using controls as a chance to defrost feet, and eat, as eating on the move with thick gloves and winter conditions is aub optimal. I'm hoping now it's warming up, it'll improve.

Tomorrow's 300 is going to be an interesting test to see where I'm at. It's the first Audax of the year with double digit temperatures, and without force 6+ winds. It should be a relatively representative example of a 300. I'd like to get round in about 17 hours all up. Will see what I manage.

J

[L CC]

Your 400 is too soon after the RaTN. You're also probably doing too much, generally, given the % of your max that you're riding at to get round in time.

This was my 2016 season. I also DNF several rides in between (recurrent cystitis, a crash, a n00b-ish off route error). I didn't enjoy riding a bike after it. For almost 2 years.

Are this year's big goals worth killing the fun of cycling?

If I were you (and I kind of am- I'm fatter and therefore slower as well as older than I used to be) I'd do an audax the first weekend of the month, and no other long rides. You need to get faster more than you need to carry on riding a long way slowly. Stop riding alone and find a group a bit faster than you, and try and hold on. Every week you'll hold on for longer until you need to find a new group. This will make the biggest improvements in your speed in the shortest time, and lack of speed is why you DNF. This is more effective than HIIT intervals.

(I'm not a physio, or a sports scientist, or a coach, but I bet you €500 if you did that it'd work).