planning a AAA DIY, how much safety margin should I leave.

[Wycombewheeler]

Looking to do some hill training ahead of tough rides coming up, figured I might as well make it a AAA DIY to step closer to Grimpeurs du Sud. So how much margin should I give the route to make sure I don't just miss out?

strava route builder tells me the route is 1646m, but resampling on bikehike gives a figure of 1564m

Is this too close to the mark?

[tonyh]

Is this too close to the mark?

It might be! For peace of mind it's probably best to add another climb or two, without spoiling the metres/km by adding too much distance.

Sounds as if you're already using this page:
http://www.aukweb.net/results/aaa/aaaclmb/

[Wycombewheeler]

Is this too close to the mark?

It might be! For peace of mind it's probably best to add another climb or two, without spoiling the metres/km by adding too much distance.

Sounds as if you're already using this page:
http://www.aukweb.net/results/aaa/aaaclmb/

Yes 1500m for 100km

[whosatthewheel]

A bit borderline... you can ask your validator to check it for you with the altitude tool... but I would try to beef it up with hills or shorten it removing flat bits... I've managed to put together a nice 100 km worth 2 AAA points, which I have used twice so far

https://www.strava.com/activities/1742168295

[Martin]

A bit borderline... you can ask your validator to check it for you with the altitude tool...

sorry we no longer have access to the latest and greatest (and also now apparently official) AUK AAA tool

I would go for a lot more than 1700 if possible


sorry but that's the way it is, apparently our hills have suddenly become less hilly and being the SE tend to be at the lower end of the AAA scale

[Wycombewheeler]

More than 1700 gets really hard locally without reusing the same hills.

[whosatthewheel]

More than 1700 gets really hard locally without reusing the same hills.

Get rid of the portion from your house and back and only track from the bottom of the first climb, that's what I did to pump the climbing ratio up

[Martin]

try for at least 1650

[Somnolent]

A bit borderline... you can ask your validator to check it for you with the altitude tool...

sorry we no longer have access to the latest and greatest (and also now apparently official) AUK AAA tool

The tool is still on a slightly flaky server in someones back-bedroom.   As soon as it can be moved to AUK controlled servers it will be made available
to DIY organisers (& ECE too I've no doubt)

apparently our hills have suddenly become less hilly and being the SE tend to be at the lower end of the AAA scale

There was a long discussion about the new tool here
I doubt rolling back to the days when an individual could spend hours poring over maps and a variety of different online tools before arriving at a subjective judgement would be seen as a step in the right direction.

[Martin]

Firstly anyone here who thinks AAA has nothing to do with Long Distance Cycling please ignore thanks!

Thanks S; but we are now on our third version of AUK software for measuring AAA since I've been validating first DIY's and latterly ECE's.

I'm still not convinced that the current software is device agnostic. There is no reliable 3D map of either the UK or indeed the world that can do the same job as good old fashioned contour counting (which nobody now does) or a GPS device so I'm interested to know how it works.

What the current software is doing is reducing the climbing, to the point where long standing but marginal calendar and perm events are losing their AAA either partially or in some cases completely.

That's a sad situation to be in as it implies that historically earnt AAA (and indeed awards and championships based thereon) are maybe not what they seem

[Wycombewheeler]

More than 1700 gets really hard locally without reusing the same hills.

Get rid of the portion from your house and back and only track from the bottom of the first climb, that's what I did to pump the climbing ratio up

80m climb in the first km from the end of my road, not an issue. But i dont bring the track back home. I stop at the top of the hill.

[whosatthewheel]

Once an event is published as AAA rated in the calendar , can it be changed?

I am planning an AAA year and I have limited resources, so I would like to avoid this scenario... I don't mind the quarter of a point tweak, but removing points altogether would screw things up

[Martin]

Once an event is published as AAA rated in the calendar , can it be changed?

I am planning an AAA year and I have limited resources, so I would like to avoid this scenario... I don't mind the quarter of a point tweak, but removing points altogether would screw things up

My understanding is no, the change in AAA will only apply after the event has been ridden, for the next season. However marginal events (around 1500 for a 100, 2800 for a 200) could lose all their AAA. My personal view is that new or existing events should be agreed with the AAA Man prior to going live in the calendar but currently it isn't.

I think anything that's 1.75AAA for 100 or 3AAA for 200 will not lose all the AAA

[whosatthewheel]

Once an event is published as AAA rated in the calendar , can it be changed?

I am planning an AAA year and I have limited resources, so I would like to avoid this scenario... I don't mind the quarter of a point tweak, but removing points altogether would screw things up

My understanding is no, the change in AAA will only apply after the event has been ridden, for the next season. However marginal events (around 1500 for a 100, 2800 for a 200) could lose all their AAA. My personal view is that new or existing events should be agreed with the AAA Man prior to going live in the calendar but currently it isn't.

I think anything that's 1.75AAA for 100 or 3AAA for 200 will not lose all the AAA

A second check was probably needed... I have earned AAA points for climbing very little, whereas on my DIY I need to sweat buckets to earn them, which is obviously not quite right.

I think the organiser should be given the opportunity to amend the route prior to it going live if he/she wants to retain the AAA points.
The way altitude is measured is not that important, as long as it is equal for all, which clearly wasn't the case before.

[citoyen]

That's a sad situation to be in as it implies that historically earnt AAA (and indeed awards and championships based thereon) are maybe not what they seem

You can't compare historic AAA points with current ones anyway because of the way points are awarded was changed a few years ago. What's important is that there's consistency in the system for all current rides. Historic rides should be judged on the system that was in use at the time.

Re your reclassified GdS routes, perhaps what is needed is a system of appeal so that an organiser can request the AAA man to manually apply AAA points on a discretionary basis where the automated method has removed them - as long as the org can provide convincing evidence to support their claim.

Personally, I'd be in favour of getting rid of AAA points for DIY rides but that's a whole other can of worms that's probably best saved for discussion elsewhere...

[whosatthewheel]

Personally, I'd be in favour of getting rid of AAA points for DIY rides but that's a whole other can of worms that's probably best saved for discussion elsewhere...

Disagree, doing so means there is zero incentive to do a DIY of less than 200 km. Also, given the almost complete lack of AAA events over the winter months, it rules out AAARTY as a feasible award for most.

Currently there is 1 BR in December from Tewkesbury, one BP in January and one in February, both from Sussex...

[citoyen]

Disagree, doing so means there is zero incentive to do a DIY of less than 200 km. Also, given the almost complete lack of AAA events over the winter months, it rules out AAARTY as a feasible award for most

OK, here's my reasoning...

Reading the discussion on the AUK forum linked by Somnolent, it seems the principal reason for adopting the new automated system is the amount of work involved in administering AAA, and the reason it has become so labour-intensive is the rise in the number of DIYs and people claiming AAA points for them.

Presumably calculating AAA points is the same amount of work for a DIY (usually ridden by one person) as for a calendar event (with maybe up to a couple of hundred riders), so on the basis that the organisation has limited human resources that need to be distributed as equitably as possible, calculating AAA points for the benefit of a single rider doesn't seem to me to be an efficient allocation of those resources.

The automated AAA calculator is, we are told, designed to reduce the workload for the AAA man; any problems with the system (eg established calendar rides having their AAA points deducted) are the price you pay for being able to allow DIY rides to be awarded AAA points.

Many AUK awards aren't achievable by the majority of riders, but that in itself is not an argument for making them easier to achieve.

[citoyen]

As a side note, it's not entirely true that the new system is making rides less hilly - my 200 actually got 10% more hilly when the AAA man checked it (I was previously using the figure generated by RWGPS).

To go back to the OP - asking the AAA man to check your route is clearly the only way to get a definitive answer (or your DIY org, once the automated software becomes available to them).

[Martin]

DIY organisers were able to award AAA when the system first went live, but the then AAA Man asked to check all tracks using different software which is where we are now. If it went back to the DIY / ECE orgs it would definitely reduce the pressure on the AAA Man, although he's currently very busy checking every calendar event.

I should add it's not my events which are threatened with losing their AAA but 3 other GdS rides (including the IOW which is a DIY only) which leaves 7 calendar 100km eligible events, a bit close for comfort.

[whosatthewheel]

Many AUK awards aren't achievable by the majority of riders, but that in itself is not an argument for making them easier to achieve.

All I am saying is that there aren't enough AAA events in the winter to support the existence of an AAARTY award.
I also doubt it is realistic to achieve 100 AAA points relying solely on calendar events... maybe adding permanents it becomes possible, but it would probably require a huge amount of travelling which I hope we all agree is not a good thing. I don't have any AAA rated permanent within reasonable cycling distance (reasonable is obviously relative, some are happy to ride 100 km to an event)

If there is too much pressure on the AAA man, why not having 2 or 3 AAA men or rolling the tool to all validators?
Although there is the perception that very few are keen to help, when I enquired about a role it turned out it had been quickly snatched before it even got advertised...

[Wycombewheeler]

Disagree, doing so means there is zero incentive to do a DIY of less than 200 km. Also, given the almost complete lack of AAA events over the winter months, it rules out AAARTY as a feasible award for most

OK, here's my reasoning...

Reading the discussion on the AUK forum linked by Somnolent, it seems the principal reason for adopting the new automated system is the amount of work involved in administering AAA, and the reason it has become so labour-intensive is the rise in the number of DIYs and people claiming AAA points for them.

Presumably calculating AAA points is the same amount of work for a DIY (usually ridden by one person) as for a calendar event (with maybe up to a couple of hundred riders), so on the basis that the organisation has limited human resources that need to be distributed as equitably as possible, calculating AAA points for the benefit of a single rider doesn't seem to me to be an efficient allocation of those resources.

The automated AAA calculator is, we are told, designed to reduce the workload for the AAA man; any problems with the system (eg established calendar rides having their AAA points deducted) are the price you pay for being able to allow DIY rides to be awarded AAA points.

Many AUK awards aren't achievable by the majority of riders, but that in itself is not an argument for making them easier to achieve.

The counter argument is that when a DIY by GPS is submitted the actual cycles route is known. AAA points for calendar events are presumably based on the nominated route and not the flattered possible route between controls. So if someone were prepared to ride extra distance they could possibly achieve the AAA points without doing the requisite climbing.

[Si S]

Disagree, doing so means there is zero incentive to do a DIY of less than 200 km. Also, given the almost complete lack of AAA events over the winter months, it rules out AAARTY as a feasible award for most

OK, here's my reasoning...

Reading the discussion on the AUK forum linked by Somnolent, it seems the principal reason for adopting the new automated system is the amount of work involved in administering AAA, and the reason it has become so labour-intensive is the rise in the number of DIYs and people claiming AAA points for them.

Presumably calculating AAA points is the same amount of work for a DIY (usually ridden by one person) as for a calendar event (with maybe up to a couple of hundred riders), so on the basis that the organisation has limited human resources that need to be distributed as equitably as possible, calculating AAA points for the benefit of a single rider doesn't seem to me to be an efficient allocation of those resources.

The automated AAA calculator is, we are told, designed to reduce the workload for the AAA man; any problems with the system (eg established calendar rides having their AAA points deducted) are the price you pay for being able to allow DIY rides to be awarded AAA points.

Many AUK awards aren't achievable by the majority of riders, but that in itself is not an argument for making them easier to achieve.

The counter argument is that when a DIY by GPS is submitted the actual cycles route is known. AAA points for calendar events are presumably based on the nominated route and not the flattered possible route between controls. So if someone were prepared to ride extra distance they could possibly achieve the AAA points without doing the requisite climbing.

aka The Larrington Manoeuvre

[Greenbank]

aka The Larrington Manoeuvre

Such things were never a problem when the ride didn't attract AAA points.

If a ride has AAA points then riders are expected not to avoid any climbing.

In the absence of a mandatory route I would expect many AAA rides would require 10+ extra info controls to ensure that all of the expected climbing was done, which is quite unworkable.

[j_a_m_e_s_]

Many AUK awards aren't achievable by the majority of riders, but that in itself is not an argument for making them easier to achieve.

All I am saying is that there aren't enough AAA events in the winter to support the existence of an AAARTY award.

Perms?

There are over 100 perms that attract AAA and are 200km amd under dotted about the country.

[grams]

If a ride has AAA points then riders are expected not to avoid any climbing.

Hang on, what?