Why does my house eat ball valves?

[rogerzilla]

About to fit the fourth one in 9 years.  Part 2 types last less than a year, part 1 types maybe 4-5 years.  The ones in the toilets have never been touched but the loft cold water tank gets through them very quickly.  The water's medium hard (not much scale in the tank). 

I am putting a fullway 1/4 turn ball valve (the other sort!) in the pipe this time to avoid the need to cut off the rest of the house when changing a dead valve.

Are valves just crap these days?

[Canardly]

Brass or plastic?

[mrcharly-YHT]

I don't think I've ever had a ball valve fail.

What is the failure mode you are seeing? Impossible to turn? Leaking?

[Tim Hall]

I read that as ball cock, the floaty type thing in a water tank, so impossible to turn won't be an issue.

[Canardly]

Ditto. The only failure I can recall is the valve intermittently letting by after many years service.

[robgul]

I assume you're going to get one with a lever* rather than the screwdriver turn sort?

A plumber suggested to me a while ago that if the valve isn't used to shut the water off very often then it's an idea to open and close the valve every now and again to keep it moving and stop it seizing/corroding/furring up.

*that's a proper lever, not the silly little plastic washing machine lever type.


EDIT - ah! seems like it's a "ball-cock" in a water tank  . . . but don't ignore the wisdom of using lever valves for shutting off water.

[rogerzilla]

The ball valves that are failing are the type with a float.

There is a kind of 1/4 turn stop valve also called a ball valve.  I am putting one of those in the pipe before the other (float) valve, since they need replacing so often.

I am buying brass ones, not plastic.  They are never serviceable once they start leaking, as the limescale jams all threads.

[mrcharly-YHT]

So are you getting leakage past the flap valve?

A tiny bit of limescale will cause that. Should be possible to scrape off.

[rogerzilla]

Flap valve?  Isn't that a toilet fitting?

[finch]

Forgive me if I’m thinking of the wrong thing but can you not get injection moulded check valves now

[rogerzilla]

https://www.stevensonplumbing.co.uk/part-1-ballcock-valve-with-float.html

This is a Part 1 ball valve.

A Part 2 ball valve is a later design, theoretically better but IME less reliable and just as impossible to overhaul once hard water has jammed all the threads.  The theory is that the diaphragm built into a Part 2 valve keeps incoming water away from the mechanicals but, in practice, all ball valves dribble water over themselves at low flow rates.

[rogerzilla]

This old thread suggests Chinese shite has taken over, and that's why.  Specifically, the nozzles are poorly finished and quickly eat away at the washer or diaphragm.

https://www.plumbersforums.net/threads/part-1-2-type-float-valves.34438/page-2

If I were paying a plumber to change these, it would get quite expensive.

[grams]

Proper Chinesium toilets have a thing like this where the valve closes very abruptly as soon as the water gets up to the little float chamber.

https://www.toolstation.com/viva-skylo-bottom-entry-fill-valve/p35993

That thing you linked to looks like something from an antique shop.

[rogerzilla]

Proper Chinesium toilets have a thing like this where the valve closes very abruptly as soon as the water gets up to the little float chamber.

https://www.toolstation.com/viva-skylo-bottom-entry-fill-valve/p35993

That thing you linked to looks like something from an antique shop.

Those things suck in hard water areas.  The floats jam and the push buttons break, regardless of water type.

I would only fit a toilet with a normal swinging ball valve, a siphon flush and a normal pull handle.  Nothing else is reliable.

[chrisbainbridge]

I would only fit a toilet with a normal swinging ball valve, a siphon flush and a normal pull handle.  Nothing else is reliable.

I thought you were saying that these were unreliable and asking for alternatives?
I would not fit a swinging ball valve in a toilet as they fail so often and find the modern systems much better.

[lissotriton]

Proper Chinesium toilets have a thing like this where the valve closes very abruptly as soon as the water gets up to the little float chamber.

https://www.toolstation.com/viva-skylo-bottom-entry-fill-valve/p35993

That thing you linked to looks like something from an antique shop.

That type works OK, but get a proper Fluidmaster. Some of the cheaper brands are crap.

[rogerzilla]

I would only fit a toilet with a normal swinging ball valve, a siphon flush and a normal pull handle.  Nothing else is reliable.

I thought you were saying that these were unreliable and asking for alternatives?
I would not fit a swinging ball valve in a toilet as they fail so often and find the modern systems much better.

What's your water like?  Anything with a sliding motion gets jammed by scale here.

The ball valves in the toilets (one of which, as far as I can tell, has not been touched since 1989) probably keep working because they were made at a time before Chinese shite flooded (ha!) the market.

[SoreTween]

I thought you had a plan in early stages of motion that justifies chuck in whatever is cheapest.

[jsabine]

Those things suck in hard water areas.  The floats jam and the push buttons break, regardless of water type.

I would only fit a toilet with a normal swinging ball valve, a siphon flush and a normal pull handle.  Nothing else is reliable.

We've had no issues^* at all with the (Geberit, I think) flush and fill valves supplied about 15 years ago with a Laufen bog. SE London, so plenty of limescale to go around.



* Not quite true - I replaced the push button about a year ago, and very occasionally (a dozen times in total, if that) the flush valve doesn't close properly, but once we've realised it's letting by pressing the button again reseats it fine.

[Andy W]

Probably the biggest cause of ball valve failure and failure of other plumbing components is build up of limescale. As a builder and occasional plumber, i have come across this problem since late 70s.
Worse than ball valves failing is the problem of mains stop tap seizing, usually after decades of not being turned on and off, thus in limescale affected areas the build up of limescale deposits literally seizes said tap. Areas affected by limescale or 'hard water' extend from IOW, through Hampshire and in a swathe extending northeast to Norfolk coast , so most home counties and London.

[rogerzilla]

I don't know why there hasn't been a move to 1/4 turn fullway ball valves instead of £5 brass stop taps for the main stop valve.   As Andy says, they seize if not worked regularly (as in every 6 months).  Even when they do work, the gland packing frequently needs tightening or they seep water up the spindle.

[Asterix, the former Gaul.]

Probably the biggest cause of ball valve failure and failure of other plumbing components is build up of limescale. As a builder and occasional plumber, i have come across this problem since late 70s.
Worse than ball valves failing is the problem of mains stop tap seizing, usually after decades of not being turned on and off, thus in limescale affected areas the build up of limescale deposits literally seizes said tap. Areas affected by limescale or 'hard water' extend from IOW, through Hampshire and in a swathe extending northeast to Norfolk coast , so most home counties and London.

Re taps:  a useful tip is when you turn on the tap, do not leave it in the jammed fully on position, just ease it back a little.  Much less likely to seize then.  Got told that by a plumber in Ipswich, where the water is well 'ard.

Also, when plumbing in a new toilet last year, there was a big shortage of plumbing fittings and was buying whatever I could find.  Had problems with compression components that wouldn't make a tight seal.     

[rogerzilla]

There's a definite knack to using compression fittings.  The pipe needs to be clean and shiny, and you need a feel for when the olive has deformed sufficiently.  Jointing compound and PTFE tape are superfluous if you do it right.

[Asterix, the former Gaul.]

Yes, normally they are no bother.

Re ptfe tape, In France I'd a British plumber do my first bathroom because I wasn't up to speed on French fittings.   Luckily i turned the water off and drained down for the winter because he'd failed to get hold of a blank to stop the end of the manifold.  What he did was to get a coin and wrap it in ptfe tape.  Eventually it started to drip and spoiled my nice ceiling.   

[mrcharly-YHT]

There's a definite knack to using compression fittings.  The pipe needs to be clean and shiny, and you need a feel for when the olive has deformed sufficiently.  Jointing compound and PTFE tape are superfluous if you do it right.

PTFE should never be used on compression fittings that use olives.

Replacing the olives with copper ones will improve your success rate.