Upstairs toilet. Any bright ideas

[rogerzilla]

Rainwater never goes into sewers for new builds these days (and hasn't for years), but often does in older houses.  All the shit in rivers is due to rainwater going into the sewer a failure to invest in the infrastucture for some unknown reason.

It is six of one and half a dozen of the other.  Heavy rain wouldn't cause sewage overflows if it didn't go into the system, but that's a mistake made by planners, regulators, and builders of the distant past.  You could argue that the system should by now be sized to cope with such things, since the problem is baked-in and well-known.

Some sewage overflows aren't due to rainfall - there is a fairly persistent one in north Swindon that requires an army of tankers every few weeks.  That is due to bad sewerdesign/construction, I think, or a failure to upgrade the system to accimmodate tens of thousands of new houses.

[Asterix, the former Gaul.]

 

Rainwater never goes into sewers for new builds these days (and hasn't for years), but often does in older houses.  All the shit in rivers is due to rainwater going into the sewer a failure to invest in the infrastucture for some unknown reason.

It is six of one and half a dozen of the other.  Heavy rain wouldn't cause sewage overflows if it didn't go into the system, but that's a mistake made by planners, regulators, and builders of the distant past.  You could argue that the system should by now be sized to cope with such things, since the problem is baked-in and well-known.

Some sewage overflows aren't due to rainfall - there is a fairly persistent one in north Swindon that requires an army of tankers every few weeks.  That is due to bad sewerdesign/construction, I think, or a failure to upgrade the system to accimmodate tens of thousands of new houses.

Where does 'army of tankers' take it?  Is it incinerated?

When I used to sail on the lower reaches of the Thames we used to see a regular procession of grey-painted what we called 'Bovril Boats'.  Despite their function, they were renowned fro their smart appearance and upkeep. Jobs aboard were much sought after.

A Royal Commission of 1882 concluded that it was necessary to create a cleaner river by separating the sludge part from the liquid sewage and remove it via boat for disposal at sea. In 1887 the first ship of a long line of 'pump and dump' effluent tanker vessels was launched. These ships, later nicknamed by those who crewed them as Bovril boats to describe their brown liquid cargo, were very well maintained, as hygienic as possible, and specially designed for marine disposal. Complex hydrostatic calculations had to be made when carrying liquid cargo but crews received reasonably good pay and regular work. The last of the fleet were: Bexley, Hounslow, and Newham, all named after London Boroughs.

European Union legislation[edit]
In the 1990s, European Union legislation forbidding the dumping of raw sewage at sea, and increasing environmental concerns that sewage was contaminating beaches, led to the phasing out of the fleet and many were scrapped or sold on to private companies. Newer technology [6] finally allowed the sludge to be incinerated in a self-powering incinerator and sold on as fertilizer pellets for use on food crops.

Perhaps leaving the EU has made it acceptable to use rivers and the sea again.

[rogerzilla]

https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/23357366.swindon-sewer-bursts-waste-water-entering-river/

I don't know where the tankers go, but the alternative seems to be that it finds its way to the river overground, which is even more gross than a deliiberate outfall.

[L CC]

Where does 'army of tankers' take it?  Is it incinerated?

Some of it goes for energy generation, for example: https://www.yorkshirewater.com/education/poo-power/

[Quisling]

IME - under no circumstances install a macerator - unreliable and not good for "positive clearance"

I'd be inclined to agree. Don't ask me how I know this.

But....if it's the absolute and only option, they do work, but they have to be respected!

From my experience of houses I've worked in, the crucial thing about macerators in what they're asked to deal with.
Here's a tip: do not, under ANY circumstance dispose of sanitary products into a toilet that has a macerator attached too it.

On two occasions my daughter, or her friends, have disposed of something of this ilk and jammed our macerator.  On the last occasion, the toilet cistern float valve was also letting by slowly, resulting in an overflow of the jammed macerator and shitty water coming through the ceiling.

That said, the macerator does usually work, and pumps satisfactorily the blended ordure along a 22mm pipe under the floor to the other side of the house, and thence into a soil stack.  Note: whilst your floor joists may run in the right direction, there could be noggins between them that would prevent easy installation of a 22mm pipe.  Worth lifting a floor board to investigate.
Also, if you're installing a new soil stack, is there any issue with the top vent location - i.e. do you have loft level velux windows?

[robgul]

IME - under no circumstances install a macerator - unreliable and not good for "positive clearance"

I'd be inclined to agree. Don't ask me how I know this.

But....if it's the absolute and only option, they do work, but they have to be respected!

From my experience of houses I've worked in, the crucial thing about macerators in what they're asked to deal with.
Here's a tip: do not, under ANY circumstance dispose of sanitary products into a toilet that has a macerator attached too it.

On two occasions my daughter, or her friends, have disposed of something of this ilk and jammed our macerator.  On the last occasion, the toilet cistern float valve was also letting by slowly, resulting in an overflow of the jammed macerator and shitty water coming through the ceiling.

That said, the macerator does usually work, and pumps satisfactorily the blended ordure along a 22mm pipe under the floor to the other side of the house, and thence into a soil stack.  Note: whilst your floor joists may run in the right direction, there could be noggins between them that would prevent easy installation of a 22mm pipe.  Worth lifting a floor board to investigate.
Also, if you're installing a new soil stack, is there any issue with the top vent location - i.e. do you have loft level velux windows?

22mm pipe is brave - the thing I had went into 32mm plastic waste pipe and that wasn't brilliant at clearing/flowing even with good falls.

[Quisling]

22mm pipe is brave - the thing I had went into 32mm plastic waste pipe and that wasn't brilliant at clearing/flowing even with good falls.

Yes, it's not an install that I'd have done by choice but it was here when we bought the house.  The macerator lifts the waste up about 30 cm to create a bit of head pressure before the "juice" drains out presumably under a degree of gravity but possibly with a bit of pump pressure behind it.  I guess when it gets moving, the outfall into the soil stack creates a bit of a siphon.  Seems to work okay. I guess there's a design balance to be struck between big diameter pipes and the higher velocity achieved in a smaller pipe with a bit of pressure behind it.

The biggest issue we have (apart from teenage girls sanitary disposal habits...) is the float switch diaphragm hardens with scale or general deterioration of the rubbery material and needs replacing every year or two so there's a definite maintenance cost.  The sanitary blockages always occur in the "poo blender" part of the equipment, not in the downstream pipework.

[Von Broad]

22mm pipe is brave - the thing I had went into 32mm plastic waste pipe and that wasn't brilliant at clearing/flowing even with good falls.

Bearing in mind of course that the inside diameter of 32mm MDPE is about 26mm, so given that the wall thickness of 22mm copper is that much less than plastic, there's not a great deal in it really. From the few I've installed [thankfully it's not a regular occurance - although initial installation is fine, it's returning that is less than desirable!] the actual outlet pipe supplied with the unit is usually really quite small in diameter, so right from the initial output after the pump the 'stuff' is being put through quite a small bore to begin with.

I guess there's a design balance to be struck between big diameter pipes and the higher velocity achieved in a smaller pipe with a bit of pressure behind it.

Yes, that's what I've always thought. Unfortunately my knowledge or ability to explain such aspects of engineering is very limited, but I'd imagine that the bigger the pipe [depending on the fall] the more probability there is for residue to gradual build up. Maybe.

I'm not sure what the regs say [if anything] about the fall of a macerator outlet pipe, but bearing in mind most of the disposal is carried out by the pump and when that stops doing its thing there is undoubtedly going to be 'stuff' left in the pipe that hasn't had chance to escape, which if vertical [from my experience] is either going to fall back into the unit itself, or stay behind a non-return valve? [maybe].....but the stuff further down the line is going to rely on gravity to drain away. Under normal circumstances with soil pipes and smaller bathroom waste pipes you're going to need a minimum drop of 1:40 for soils and fluids can drain on as little as 1:100. You've obviously want more than this for macerators, but does it really matter? and the distance it has to travel to the soil pipe is obviously also important.

Getting down into the weeds a bit here - such a cool subject

[mrcharly-YHT]

I'm not sure it would be desirable for a macerator outlet pipe to gravity-drain. More chance of blockages building up that way.
If it remains 'full' then the whole lot will be pushed along when the macerator runs.

[Rod Marton]

When I installed a macerator in a previous house I used a proper marine macerator with as wide a pipe as possible (at least 32mm). Theory behind this was the macerator would push anything out to the main sewage system. I never had a problem with it - unlike the one I found when I moved here which had a narrow pipe, long run and vertical climb. Family were rapidly instructed not to put anything vaguely solid in that toilet.

[rogerzilla]

The former in-laws owned a holiday cottage in Weardale.  They had an upstairs bog installed with a macerator.  When we stayed there, there was a cast-iron No.1 Only rule, and you had to shake the lettuce/pump nozzle rather than use toilet paper.  Hence everyone used the downstairs one.

[Wowbagger]

I’m damned certain that I were lumbered with a macerate style bog, I would introduce a law banning solids in it.

[chrisbainbridge]

I’m damned certain that I were lumbered with a macerate style bog, I would introduce a law banning solids in it.

I thought damning was the result of the solids?

[The Family Cyclist]

I did genuinely consider an compost toilet down the garden but have the problem that for it to be as far from the house as possible it would be too close to the little stream through my garden

[rogerzilla]

A friend of a friend (I did actually meet him once, and gave him a wide berth) did what monkeys do.

(click to show/hide)

Crap in his hand and fling it at people.  I shit you not.  But he would have.

[fd3]

Electric compostable toilet?  They make them for indoors.
If you are not going to move, the next expensive step is convert the back room to an upstairs bathroom and then adapt the loft for living space (possibly with en suite).  A snip at 50k.

[The Family Cyclist]

Electric compostable toilet?  They make them for indoors.
If you are not going to move, the next expensive step is convert the back room to an upstairs bathroom and then adapt the loft for living space (possibly with en suite).  A snip at 50k.

We considered that a few years back but have high ceilings and a corresponding low attic so would need the whole of upstairs ceiling to be dropped as well as the loft conversion

[fd3]

If you are considering that level of investment, what about extending above the outhouses?

[Jaded]

Re-looking at the thread title.

A guzunder?

[The Family Cyclist]

If you are considering that level of investment, what about extending above the outhouses?

Honestly reading some of this does make me wonder why we don't just move but really do like out house and location.

We can't go up out the back. Due to them being tightly terraced would block the light to neighbours (both neighbours have extended out single story and were told single story only when getting planning/permission to develop

[Pickled Onion]

Re-looking at the thread title.

A guzunder?

That's not such a silly idea. I have a Simploo and a "no solids except in emergencies" rule. Also a "sit down to wee" rule. When it's full you put the lid on the urine bottle, lift it out and empty it down a standard bog.

Most owners find solids are fine, there's a fan that draws air through and out into a carbon filter. This stops it smelling and dries the solids out fairly well. I just use the bucket at the back for used tissue.