Sustrans

[YahudaMoon]

The Fallowfield Loop Manchester

[YahudaMoon]

This is my commute to shops by the way

[recumbentpanda]

I'm a bit puzzled by all this animosity there seems to be against Sustrans. The NCN for all its failings wouldn't exist without them. There often seems to be a misunderstanding about the way they work. They don't build the tracks, they get the councils, landowners etc together who need to cooperate on building tracks so that they can work together to access whatever funds Govt/lottery etc make available.

So you get something for free you didn't have before, and you complain becuase it doesn't match up to what you thought it ought to be? Very human, but not really fair.

Some NCN routes are good, some not so. Some are good, but only for some kinds of use. They exist because the Sustrans team made an effort, and I think before carping, people might consider helping.

I have no connection with the organisation. I'm just concerned that this is the UK version of 'tall-poppy syndrome' as the Australians call it: If something's successful, nit pick, cavil and sneer.

Just my crabby little thoughts . . .  

[hellymedic]

Those who carp, mainly do so because it's not successful.
They do so because they dislike being funnelled onto badly surfaced, poorly signed, indirect, inaccessible routes, for which gratitude is expected, whilst motorists yell "The cycle route is that way" should they dare to use the road.

[Regulator]

Those who carp, mainly do so because it's not successful.
They do so because they dislike being funnelled onto badly surfaced, poorly signed, indirect, inaccessible routes, for which gratitude is expected, whilst motorists yell "The cycle route is that way" should they dare to use the road.

And I should point out that Sustrans also gets huge amounts of money which, for an organisaition which doesn't "build the tracks, they get the councils, landowners etc together who need to cooperate on building tracks so that they can work together to access whatever funds Govt/lottery etc make available" seems a bit odd.

[Gandalf]

Those who carp, mainly do so because it's not successful.
They do so because they dislike being funnelled onto badly surfaced, poorly signed, indirect, inaccessible routes, for which gratitude is expected, whilst motorists yell "The cycle route is that way" should they dare to use the road.

Or as one Youtube commentator put it " a bantustan for cyclists".

[Honest John]

Those who carp, mainly do so because it's not successful.
They do so because they dislike being funnelled onto badly surfaced, poorly signed, indirect, inaccessible routes, for which gratitude is expected, whilst motorists yell "The cycle route is that way" should they dare to use the road.

+1

Let's face it, creating a cycling network that would be of any utility for efficient, trouble-free cycling would probably involve replicating all current roads with mini-roads or closing every second road to motor vehicles.

Neither is going to happen (although the latter could if we revived Dr Beeching and let him loose on roads to determine their economic viability without huge subsidy from non-motorists and taxpayers in general).

IMHO one of the saddest sights is a cycle route built where a railway should be. Especially when it's dressed up with sculptures that almost, but not quite, evoke the image of Victorian engineeering.

[Honest John]

The NCN for all its failings wouldn't exist without them.

And that would be a bad thing because....?

[RichForrest]

The NCN for all its failings wouldn't exist without them.

And that would be a bad thing because....?

There would actually be less cyclists on the road without it.
I've lead rides on cycle paths around here for over 10yrs, a lot of the people who start off on these paths go onto be road going cyclists as they get fitter and faster.

[Panoramix]

The NCN for all its failings wouldn't exist without them.

And that would be a bad thing because....?

I wouldn't have cycle commuted between Bristol and Bath for 3 years!

[Basil]

Very early eighties, I commuted daily between Totterdown and Twerton.
The cycle route was called the A4.

Thankfully, the famous cycle path was put in place after I left Bristol in 1983.

[vorsprung]

I'm a bit puzzled by all this animosity there seems to be against Sustrans. The NCN for all its failings wouldn't exist without them. There often seems to be a misunderstanding about the way they work. They don't build the tracks, they get the councils, landowners etc together who need to cooperate on building tracks so that they can work together to access whatever funds Govt/lottery etc make available.

So you get something for free you didn't have before, and you complain becuase it doesn't match up to what you thought it ought to be? Very human, but not really fair.

Some NCN routes are good, some not so. Some are good, but only for some kinds of use. They exist because the Sustrans team made an effort, and I think before carping, people might consider helping.

I have no connection with the organisation. I'm just concerned that this is the UK version of 'tall-poppy syndrome' as the Australians call it: If something's successful, nit pick, cavil and sneer.

Just my crabby little thoughts . . .  

1) "the NCN wouldn't exist without them"  Some cycle paths would exist without them, as they do not build them.  The NCN as a concept has a number of problems.  Firstly it is of patchy quality so cannot be used as a reliable option.  Secondly the signage is often misleading or missing.  Lastly, if the NCN did not exist something else would and it is difficult to think of something that would be worse.

2) "Some NCN routes are good, some not so"  Yeah totally.  In Devon where I live there are many, many rotten paths and routes but there is one good modern, well surfaced facility going to Tiverton Parkway station.  But a couple of miles of good path versus the dozens of miles of bad path is not a good ratio

3) "If something's successful, nit pick, cavil and sneer"  As others have said, it is only successful at sucking in funding like a black hole.  With the current round of government funding cuts ( more like carnage ) It will be interesting to see what Sustrans can do.  They are not a tearing success at making quality projects happen

The other thing about Sustrans is that it is very much on the "Cycles separate from traffic" school of thought.  This isn't a popular concept with people that actually cycle now in current conditions - ie most people on this forum.  Cycle/traffic separation is popular with motorists and inexperienced cyclists.

[Honest John]

You don't need a lot of faded and vandalised blue signs to find quiet routes for cycling.

Yesterday I lead a club day-ride, slow-ish pace (11mph not including stops). We spent a lot of time on roads marked with NCN signs. But these were irrelevant since I based the route on local knowledge and OS maps, and included pointless detours (off the signed routes) to see the scenery and Generally Interesting Things like pretty buildings, watercress beds, trout streams, duck ponds, mothballed airliners and The Gay Dog Boarding Kennels and Cattery and Shear Bliss Grooming Parlour.

50 miles in Hampshire, with very few oncoming or overtaking motors, all of them civilised (including the 40t watercress truck), and about three miles on B-roads, none on A-roads.

If you can read a map, a low-traffic route is easy to find.

[alves]

If you can read a map, a low-traffic route is easy to find.

But thats the point isn't it?
Lots of people cant read maps or dont and rely on Sustrans routes and school training etc for their intro into the wonderful world of cycling.
As a lone voice in this widerness, I support them with my time and a little money.
They're not perfect and to an experienced cyclist (like most of us on this forum) they offer not very much at all really but they do support cycling in the UK and that's laudable. Better than nothing, even the most sceptical of you should agree with that.
It really does sound like the Tall Poppy Syndrome mentioned earlier combined with a healthy dose of British cynical miserablism.

[Honest John]

If you can read a map, a low-traffic route is easy to find.

Lots of people cant read maps or dont

Why on earth not?

And if not, why not teach them?

Are there really people who set out on the road without knowing where they're going?

You can never rely on road signs of any sort. In particular, road signs meant for drivers will direct you to the fastest route, often via an A road, while signs meant for cyclists will often direct you a circuitous or badly-surfaced route that will tire you more quickly than using a perfectly harmless, low-trafficed B or "wide yellow" road.

[Basil]

Are there really people who set out on the road without knowing where they're going?

When I cycled from Brum to the 1999 eclipse, I more or less did that.

My route plan was:
Take the A38
Keep doing that.

[Honest John]

Are there really people who set out on the road without knowing where they're going?

When I cycled from Brum to the 1999 eclipse, I more or less did that.

My route plan was:
Take the A38
Keep doing that.

So... You knew where you were going and how to get there. Even if it wasn't too pleasant.

I once got detached from a group ride in the middle of East Sussex without a map. I navigated by the sun.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I once navigated from London to Bath on unclassified roads by the sun. On a motorbike.

Very early eighties, I commuted daily between Totterdown and Twerton.
The cycle route was called the A4.

Thankfully, the famous cycle path was put in place after I left Bristol in 1983.

I'd never even consider doing that along the A4. But then I don't remember it before the Railway Path (as I still think of it) was built.

[corshamjim]

When I cycled from Brum to the 1999 eclipse, I more or less did that.

My route plan was:
Take the A38
Keep doing that.

The A38 is good for that - in my late teens I cycled from Bristol to Taunton down & up it too.

[clarion]

I don't like going out for a ride unless I have a map.  I love maps, and can not only read one, but can spend happy hours just perusing them, and have done. I had maps on my wall as a kid, including a streetmap of Milwaukee, which I've never visited.

But the regular stream of Satnav outrages shows that, yes, people are getting used to going out somewhere without knowing how to get there, or even where it is they are going.  And I suspect that they are just the tip of an iceberg of numptiness.

Yes, we absolutely should teach people how to read maps.  And teachers and Scout leaders and Woodcraft folk have been trying to pass on this valuable knowledge for years.  But, if kids thought it boring and irrelevant when I was young (and they certainly did, in the vast majority), then now they have access to online mapping etc, they probably think it as relevant as how to build a steam engine.

[Honest John]

I don't like going out for a ride unless I have a map.  I love maps, and can not only read one, but can spend happy hours just perusing them, and have done. I had maps on my wall as a kid, including a streetmap of Milwaukee, which I've never visited.

+1

I have a huge and much-loved collection covering 2/3 of GB, all of NI, some of RoI, 2/3 of France, a fair bit of northern Spain and bits of Belgium, plus some antique OS and Bart's maps I rescued from being slung out when we moved offices at work (my colleagues frequently had to travel to farms in the middle of nowhere, and OS maps were invaluable before GPS and the interweb thingy).

I tend to buy a map of whereever I'm going, even if I'm travelling by train/plane/bus and not bike, so I also have a collection of city street maps.

My favourite is a bilingual 1:50000 Michelin map of Lille/Rijsel that shows where all the cobbled roads are.

I have been known to keep a few maps next to the bog. Beats the newspaper.

But the regular stream of Satnav outrages shows that, yes, people are getting used to going out somewhere without knowing how to get there, or even where it is they are going.  And I suspect that they are just the tip of an iceberg of numptiness.

Yes, we absolutely should teach people how to read maps.  And teachers and Scout leaders and Woodcraft folk have been trying to pass on this valuable knowledge for years.  But, if kids thought it boring and irrelevant when I was young (and they certainly did, in the vast majority), then now they have access to online mapping etc, they probably think it as relevant as how to build a steam engine.

+1 again. This is quite true. De-skilling is rife in our society. And steam engines are still used in every power station and some big ships.

I was taught how to read a map at school - indeed, one of my O-level exams involved being able to describe the geology and physical and economic geography of Dorking from the OS map. After that I moved on to greater things i.e geophysics and meteorology.

And even if a map's online, you still need to know how to read it.

[Nuncio]

When I cycled from Brum to the 1999 eclipse, I more or less did that.

My route plan was:
Take the A38
Keep doing that.

So... You knew where you were going and how to get there. Even if it wasn't too pleasant.

I once got detached from a group ride in the middle of East Sussex without a map. I navigated by the sun.

That's OK as long as there isn't an eclipse.

[Honest John]

When I cycled from Brum to the 1999 eclipse, I more or less did that.

My route plan was:
Take the A38
Keep doing that.

So... You knew where you were going and how to get there. Even if it wasn't too pleasant.

I once got detached from a group ride in the middle of East Sussex without a map. I navigated by the sun.

That's OK as long as there isn't an eclipse.

I could come over all technical now... During an eclipse, you can still see where the sun isn't.

[itsbruce]

They're not perfect and to an experienced cyclist (like most of us on this forum) they offer not very much at all really but they do support cycling in the UK and that's laudable. Better than nothing, even the most sceptical of you should agree with that.

Plenty of people here have given you cogent arguments to the contrary.  If they are correct, and Sustrans is wasting money with little to show for it, then that is not "better than nothing", even if we were in a boom economy.  There are other organisations that could make much more effective use of the funds.

[Si_Co]

Are there really people who set out on the road without knowing where they're going?

Yes on a regular basis- I'll go out for a ride with no plan, if theres no plan it can't go wrong. As I'm cycling along I decide that I like the look of such and such a turning, or a place name looks interesting so i'll go that way.

It must be said that i do have a passion for maps, although i rarely carry one, and have a good sense of direction so getting truly lost is a rarity. However it is an easy way to end up a long way from home and your dinner in the dog.