Coming soon - the all new Windsor-Chester-Windsor

[citoyen]

The wheels nearly fell off the plan on the way back to the sleep stop though: it seemed to take for ever!. The rain didnt seem as bad as predicted and it wasnt too cold, but the speed was pedestrian. Feelings of inadequacy werent help by Hummers whizzing pass with a cheery 'Alright Chaps?'.  I was riding with Wilbur and at one point just had to get him to pause while I hung my head over the bars for 2 minutes eyes-closed time. We got going again but about a minute later Wilbur was jerked awake as his wheels hit the gravel at the side of the road after going straight on at a bend whilst asleep.

We got back to Lilllishall by 4pm, having lost the gained time plus another 30 mins down on plan. I had a greater desire for sleep than food so pushed straight onto the sleep stop. That 7k seemed like 17!. We recalculated timings and asked for a 7pm wakeup. Saw MarcusJB just getting ready to go out again. I think I was asleep before I crawled under the blankets, but woke up at 6.30 worried I had missed my wake up call.

Interesting. Your timings and experience seem quite similar to mine - we must have met at various points along the way without realising.

After leaving Chester, I took a while to get going again, but I passed a few riders along the way - I'm guessing two of them would have been you and Wilbur. Then I had to stop for 15 minutes, using a phone box for shelter, to top up my Garmin, which I had foolishly neglected to do at Chester. That, added to spending an hour at Chester when I'd only intended to stop for 20 minutes, meant I was running a fair bit behind my schedule by that point. (Part of the reason for the longer stop at Chester is evident in ESL's film - I'd got changed into my overnight/wet weather gear and was ready to set off, but then had a quick power nap, apparently giving ESL an excuse to point his camera at me.)

Anyway, while I was stopped, all the riders I'd passed since leaving Chester overtook me again. Once I was confident my Garmin was juiced up enough to get me to Lilleshall, I set off again and was soon passed by a high-speed Hummers. I thought that would be the last I'd see of him, but then I got my second wind, and for the second half of the section, I was really motoring. Caught up with Hummers again on a hill, rode alongside him for a bit, then we caught up with Aidan (not OTP? I didn't get around to asking), who I'd been riding with on and off for most of the ride. He was on a no-sleep strategy, having ridden 80km to the start and intending to ride home again afterwards, but he was struggling to stay awake when we caught him again. With hindsight, I feel a bit bad for not slowing down and riding with him to make sure he was OK, but you know what it's like when you're "in the zone", and it only occurred to me later. (As it happened, he wisely gave up on the no-sleep strategy and he looked pretty chipper when I next saw him at Chalgrove, when he arrrived just as I was about to set off.)

Got to Lilleshall about 3.30, I think, and although I was intending to sleep there, I was feeling pretty good at the time and the lack of beds made me half consider pressing on to Hartlebury before sleeping. But setting out again after a quick plate of food and cup of tea, I suddenly started getting major attacks of the dozies and found the 7km to Sheriffhales a really hard slog, so decided to revert to the original plan and sleep there. Woke up soon after 6am and was on the road by 6.30, getting to Hartlebury by 9am, just as the light-but-persistent rain turned into a very heavy shower.

I have to agree with others about Hartlebury - the food was great at all the controls, but Hartlebury wins the prize. The lentil soup was just what I needed when I got there, and I followed that up with some of Wobbly's most excellent bread pudding. It was really hard to resist the temptation to sample a bit of everything on the table, it all looked so good, but I restricted myself to sticking a bit of flapjack and a couple of those raw chocolate brownies in my pocket for nibbling en route. Those raw chocolate brownies... omg... they were incredible. And not only did they taste amazing, they were like rocket fuel - I ate them about halfway along the next stage and they seemed to put a real zip in my legs. Bloody marvellous!

I dont think I will ride the next running of this event....but thats because I want to volunteer as a helper having appreciated the kindness shown to the riders at all controls.

 

If this is only going to be run in PBP years, that might be a problem for me, because I really want to do the Beast From The East again and that is only run in PBP years too. Maybe riding one and volunteering on the other is the best way to experience both in the same year (I did consider riding both this year but I'm glad I decided against as with the two rides being just a week apart, I would have found it impossible to complete both at current levels of fitness).

[ad441]

It's magic when that happens, isn't it? I've twice had an owl fly in front of me (and to the side) for a considerable distance  (once circa 1982, and again 2 years ago). I concluded that they were using the light from my front lamp to aid their search for small mammals (voles etc) in the verge/ditch, and that I was travelling at just the right speed for them. Any owl experts out there who can confirm/refute this?

A birdy thread here http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=70016 but I think it is your Guardian Angel in disguise keeping you company on the lonley night road

Glad it's not just me. On a ride that had quite a lot of rather dark moments, spotting wildlife was one of the things that kept me going. Saw a lot of bats, at least one other owl hunting over a field and I briefly thought a kestrel/buzzard (some smallish bird of prey anyway, have never been good at identifying them) was about to attack me/land on my helmet.
Though it was also sad to see so many dead badgers.

In relation to DNFs, as a slower rider I was surprised to see how many people were sleeping at Christleton at around midnight. I forced myself out into the rain again as quickly as possible as I felt that it would be too dispiriting to wake up with 310k still to go.  It was really hard going for the next few hours, but I think if I'd stopped there I'd have struggled to get the motivation up to finish.

I'm still surprised how hard I found it - I can't believe anyone can think 600s are easier than 400s. I found 400 tough, but never had much doubt over finishing it, whereas the level of discomfort I felt on WCW meant I didn't really feel confident of making it to the end until I was back into the Costwolds. Also surprised that exact same bike setup and clothing that was fine for a 400 a few weeks previously could be so painful. It's one of the factors that's made me decide not to do PBP this year as I think I'd rather leave it until I've got more audax oriented frame.

[alwyn]

In relation to DNFs, as a slower rider I was surprised to see how many people were sleeping at Christleton at around midnight. I forced myself out into the rain again as quickly as possible as I felt that it would be too dispiriting to wake up with 310k still to go.  It was really hard going for the next few hours, but I think if I'd stopped there I'd have struggled to get the motivation up to finish.

I've been surprised at how many people struggled on this section. When I did my test ride I averaged 28kph all the way to Shifnal, including the tedious climb after Lilleshall. It's pretty laney but using just the routesheet I found navigation pretty straightforward and concluded it would be a fast section. I guess it must have been the combination of wind, rain and the time of day (or night).

Regarding overdistance, I really don't accept MoanyMinter's analysis. This event required you to complete 600km in 38h 27m or an overall average speed of 15.6 kph. You could make that time up by spending 10 minutes less at each control. Given that most controls seemed to be offering table service with food to your table in minutes (if not seconds), I'd say the overdistance and enhanced service balance out nicely. In comparison, you can spend 10 minutes at PBP simply getting your card stamped and walking to the loo, the controls are that large.

The challenge is the challenge and it's up to you to do your homework. I stand by what I said earlier; if you can't finish WCW as organised this year, you are going to struggle to finish PBP.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Should I change my forum name to MoanyMinter?

Other countries get their qualifiers within 2% overdistance and their riders finish PBP in worthwhile numbers. AUK delights in much greater overdistance events, which is fine, except for those bouncing against the time limit of BRM events. Largely irrelevant, except in PBP year.

[alwyn]

Should I change my forum name to MoanyMinter?

yes

Other countries get their qualifiers within 2% overdistance and their riders finish PBP in worthwhile numbers. AUK delights in much greater overdistance events, which is fine, except for those bouncing against the time limit of BRM events. Largely irrelevant, except in PBP year.

Actually, the UK has the highest completion rate of the big countries. Must be all that extra training.

http://pbpresults.bikeaholics.org/pbp2011/country

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Are you having fun culling riders who could finish PBP, except for having to travel faster than is required in other countries?

Not extra training, culling those who are marginal.

[alwyn]

Aside from the food, one of my best memories of the ride is an owl flying along a lane in front of me for what seemed like ages. Lots of bats as well.

Another rider encountered an owl too. This one flew straight into him though. Clearly they're not always as sharp witted as you might think.

[L CC]

Other countries get their qualifiers within 2% overdistance and their riders finish PBP in worthwhile numbers.

Isn't that a consequence of free-route-between controls? Compulsory routes can shave distance much more.
The 600 we're headed for next weekend is 600.6km long, according to the routesheet. Luckily we'll be diverting 150m or so from the route for bed, or with late night cornering across carriageways we'd easily run the risk of under distance.


I think I agree with alwyn, in that if you can't finish this you wouldn't finish PBP.
I do however think that if you didn't finish this there are other options (still) if you're determined and just because you didn't finish doesn't mean you couldn't finish PBP.

[redfalo]

I managed to shorten the route in a few places to end up with 614 km.

I would not boast too much about this if you want to use it as a PBP qualifier. From the BRM rules:

Article 8 : At the start, each rider will receive a brevet card and a cue sheet indicating the route and the location of the checkpoints. Riders must stay on the route. If a rider leaves the route, they must return to the route at the same point prior to continuing, ie. no shortcuts or detours from the route, unless specified by the organizer. Riders must stop at each checkpoint to have their card stamped. Organizers may also include unannounced checkpoints along the route. This assures that everyone will stay on the prescribed route.

http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/EN/312.html

Not having to queue to get food, or wait for it to be cooked, or find a cashpoint for a receipt, saves lots of time. If we offer all that and you can't finish in 40 hours, you probably wouldn't finish PBP either.

I think Alwyn has a really good point here, while I have to say I was cursing the over-distance as well while being on the ride.

The ride was absolutely fantastic, as I have already expressed on Facebook (detailled report here will follow). Two thoughts:

1)  In future PBP years, it may be wise to point out the over-distance and the BRM-oddity of not getting extra time more clearly in the description of the ride. I wasn't really aware when I signed up for it in January and may have chosen a different 600 to be on the safe side for my PBP qualification.  (Luckily I did not, as the route, the controls, the food and the volunteers were utterly outstanding - and I did finish with 2 hours in hand.)

2) A real design flaw IMHO are the intermediate control times, which are calculated on an 15kph average rather than the 15.6 kph. Hence the closing times of the controls give you a wrong and misleading sense of security. For 6am starters, the last control closed at 20:12h. Let's assume you are a slowish rider and and had a few punctures, and arrive by 19:00. Your sleep deprived mind may think you still have more than an hour in hand. The truth is you are already out of time, as Arriveé closes at 22:00 (rather than 23:36h, if the required minimum average was 15.6kph), and hence you "lose" 1:36hrs on  the last leg. From my point of view, it would make much more sense to calculate the closing times of all controls based on the required minimum average for the entire ride.

[alwyn]

Isn't that a consequence of free-route-between controls?

Not in this case. The difficulty here is that while it's possible to get from Windsor to Chester and back in under 600km, it means using unpleasant roads. To route along roads you'd actually want to cycle racks up the extra distance. You then rack up extra distance by making the event full service, as you have to route to the controls you can find.

I could have probably brought this in at around 610km if I'd used a bunch of garages as controls, but that isn't the event I wanted to run. If you were committed to riding PBP and were a marginal candidate, you would have gone to Alfreton or Cheadle and ridden something flat and short and well-attended. You wouldn't have ridden, say the Kernow and South West. But for the bulk of riders aiming for Paris, WCW does the job just fine.

Culling riders? Did somebody honk the hyperbole klaxon?

[Bobby]

We knew it had lumps, we knew it was over distance & we chose to enter it. 

There were other options if you wanted something shorter/easier - IMHO it was certainly made easier by the controls but it was by no means an easy ride.  That's OK, it was my choice to enter it (and for a while on the ride I thought I'd be out of time - pesky hills...)

Oh yeah & I've changed my forum name after it, so it obviously did me some good 

[LEE]

Are you having fun culling riders who could finish PBP, except for having to travel faster than is required in other countries?

Not extra training, culling those who are marginal.

I'm quite sure he isn't having fun at DNFs.

Were you aware of the 40 hour BRM rule, and the (over)length of ride, before you entered?

I can see it being a bummer if you learned this the hard way.

I always found the extra kms on BCM600 quite tough because my brain seemed to say "That's 600km done, I reckon that's it done" with an hour's pedalling left.
However, I was fully aware that, for PBP qualification, I needed to be constantly aware of that overdistance.  Not nice but I chose to do it and can't blame anyone else.

I didn't do the ride but I know very well how a good plan can go out of the window at 3am in the rain, especially when you're sat in a nice convivial control rather than out in the cold rain.

My 600 is this weekend, I doubt it will be as grim as your experience but I'll still have a tiny sheet of paper, with times and places on it, so I know where I should be at a certain time.  My brain loses the ability to work out ideal pace vs time at controls beyond about 9pm so I need something smiple to check that keeps about 2 hours in hand.

A bit of a cross-post with Bobby

EDIT.  Controls are like the TARDIS, time and space operates differently in there.  They are destroyers of overall speed figures.
300km in 15 hours is a nice comfy 20km/hr but an hour spent in each of 3 controls brings it down to 16.6km/hr and suddenly you are a puncture away from the dreaded 15km/hr overall average (and when you REALLY don't need a puncture we all know what happens...twice).

[citoyen]

Isn't that a consequence of free-route-between controls?

Not in this case. The difficulty here is that while it's possible to get from Windsor to Chester and back in under 600km, it means using unpleasant roads. To route along roads you'd actually want to cycle racks up the extra distance.

Yes, I suspect the tendency for AUK rides to be overdistance is largely down to British geography rather than wilful sadism from the organisers. I know from my attempts at route planning how difficult it is to plot a route that both avoids big towns/main roads and isn't massively overdistance.

Were you aware of the 40 hour BRM rule, and the (over)length of ride, before you entered?

LWaB isn't moaning on his own behalf. And given the amount of rain we had, I suspect he would have been moaning an awful lot more if he'd actually entered the WCW this year.

My own feelings about the lumpiness of the route and the weather are somewhat tempered by my experience of last year's Brimstone.

[Bunker22]

I had a period when my brain couldnt work out why I had 90 mins in hand at Hartlesbury (S) on the brevet card, but my spreadsheet said that I would have only about 30 mins at the finish at current pace. Eventually I realised that you had 25km of time to do 50km of distance after the penultimate control closed and the finish time.

I knew it was over distance before I started and that this would be the case, it was just that tiredness confused me at the time. I am glad I had my little spreadsheet note to keep me on track or I might have been a bit complacent with a rude awakening!

[Tim Hall]

Aside from the food, one of my best memories of the ride is an owl flying along a lane in front of me for what seemed like ages. Lots of bats as well.

Another rider encountered an owl too. This one flew straight into him though. Clearly they're not always as sharp witted as you might think.

Thick as two short planks, apparently.  Those massive eyes take up space that could otherwise be occupied by brains.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

LEE, I rode a different 600 that weekend but rode WCW last year. I try to be aware of how tough an event is and how long it is before I enter e.g. No Pendle 600 for me this year.

The distance is the challenge of Audax, the rest is what it is. I generally don't complain to the organiser about the weather.

Making an event an hour and a half harder than it 'has to be' will mean that marginal people fail when they should have succeeded. There are quite a few folk who limp into Paris on a wing and a prayer but succeed. Culling them on an overly-hard qualifier on the basis that they'd probably fail anyway seems unnecessarily harsh.

[LMT]

I managed to shorten the route in a few places to end up with 614 km.

I would not boast too much about this if you want to use it as a PBP qualifier. From the BRM rules:

Article 8 : At the start, each rider will receive a brevet card and a cue sheet indicating the route and the location of the checkpoints. Riders must stay on the route. If a rider leaves the route, they must return to the route at the same point prior to continuing, ie. no shortcuts or detours from the route, unless specified by the organizer. Riders must stop at each checkpoint to have their card stamped. Organizers may also include unannounced checkpoints along the route. This assures that everyone will stay on the prescribed route.

http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/EN/312.html

Not having to queue to get food, or wait for it to be cooked, or find a cashpoint for a receipt, saves lots of time. If we offer all that and you can't finish in 40 hours, you probably wouldn't finish PBP either.

I think Alwyn has a really good point here, while I have to say I was cursing the over-distance as well while being on the ride.

The ride was absolutely fantastic, as I have already expressed on Facebook (detailled report here will follow). Two thoughts:

1)  In future PBP years, it may be wise to point out the over-distance and the BRM-oddity of not getting extra time more clearly in the description of the ride. I wasn't really aware when I signed up for it in January and may have chosen a different 600 to be on the safe side for my PBP qualification.  (Luckily I did not, as the route, the controls, the food and the volunteers were utterly outstanding - and I did finish with 2 hours in hand.)

2) A real design flaw IMHO are the intermediate control times, which are calculated on an 15kph average rather than the 15.6 kph. Hence the closing times of the controls give you a wrong and misleading sense of security. For 6am starters, the last control closed at 20:12h. Let's assume you are a slowish rider and and had a few punctures, and arrive by 19:00. Your sleep deprived mind may think you still have more than an hour in hand. The truth is you are already out of time, as Arriveé closes at 22:00 (rather than 23:36h, if the required minimum average was 15.6kph), and hence you "lose" 1:36hrs on  the last leg. From my point of view, it would make much more sense to calculate the closing times of all controls based on the required minimum average for the entire ride.

I thought the same but the UK is exempt no this ruling IIRC.

You raise a valid point though RE: Point 2.

[Cycling Daddy]

Are you having fun culling riders who could finish PBP, except for having to travel faster than is required in other countries?

Not extra training, culling those who are marginal.

I know myself as a rider who probably absolutely does not need over-distance so I choose a ride that is not over by so much (and is quite flat BTW)  We did look at halls around Dorney which would have lopped some kms off.  I also note that for those finishing later there was a tail wind gale to help loft them on their way.

Whatever I choose I run the risk of enough adverse events to take me out...if it was a near certainty then it would not be audacious. 

[postie]

as i remember PBP is 20odd kms over distance ,so i have to agree with alwyn if you cant finish this ride in time forget PBP
thanks to alwyn for a great ride and to all the helpers, many thanks great food all the way round.

[L CC]

I managed to shorten the route in a few places to end up with 614 km.

I would not boast too much about this if you want to use it as a PBP qualifier. From the BRM rules:

Article 8 : At the start, each rider will receive a brevet card and a cue sheet indicating the route and the location of the checkpoints. Riders must stay on the route. If a rider leaves the route, they must return to the route at the same point prior to continuing, ie. no shortcuts or detours from the route, unless specified by the organizer. Riders must stop at each checkpoint to have their card stamped. Organizers may also include unannounced checkpoints along the route. This assures that everyone will stay on the prescribed route.

http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/EN/312.html

Doesn't apply in the UK.
We don't have compulsory routes, we have free route between controls. See threads passim.
And that to me means the basic premise of this ride was wrong- you can't get to Chester from Windsor without either a) riding unsuitable roads or b) being significantly over distance. And it's why (to reference threads ad infinitum here and elsewhere) you can't ride a DIY by simply submitting a GPS track that's longer than n00km and be credited with it- you have to submit controls. That's the deal AUK struck.

This is all a bit off topic, and derailing the thanks for a ride (largely) enjoyed by its riders, and as that is, pretty much, the point, we should revert to riders thanking organisers and sharing their marvellous adventures.

[Bobby]

2) A real design flaw IMHO are the intermediate control times, which are calculated on an 15kph average rather than the 15.6 kph. Hence the closing times of the controls give you a wrong and misleading sense of security. For 6am starters, the last control closed at 20:12h. Let's assume you are a slowish rider and and had a few punctures, and arrive by 19:00. Your sleep deprived mind may think you still have more than an hour in hand. The truth is you are already out of time, as Arriveé closes at 22:00 (rather than 23:36h, if the required minimum average was 15.6kph), and hence you "lose" 1:36hrs on  the last leg. From my point of view, it would make much more sense to calculate the closing times of all controls based on the required minimum average for the entire ride.

^this is what caused my panic - looking at the closing times I decided to sleep again at Weston (no choice really), and leisurely left the control with ~40 mins in hand.  It was some way down the road when it clicked that I needed to get a shift on as I couldn't do the last 50k in under 2 hours!  I set my target to leave the last control by 19:00, but the A44 tail-wind helped me get there not long after 18:00 so I could relax again...

I would have been very helpful to less experienced audaxers if that was calculated on the actual min average.  I always knew I had to be back by 22:00, but the brevet card was misleading

[Somnolent]

This whole business of over-distance was debated ad nauseam in relation to the BCM600 before PBP2011
And that was before the Pont Brewit closure!
Strange, I didn't hear any one complaining about that being 629km this year?

FWIW Danial did 'even out' the internediate control closing times on LEL 2013 (effectively using a minimum speed of 12.3km/h instead 12 km) so that no-one should be caught out by the over-distance element at the end.   It's an interesting debate as to whether that is appropriate.  Suppose you get a quick rider who overslept along the way and is suddenly very FV... do you DQ them because they were just outside an intermediate control closing time calculated on the higher minimum speed?   When they'd have been inside the time if it had been worked out at the nominal 15kph (or whatever) ?  And is quick enough to make up the difference by the end?

[Cycling Daddy]

  It's an interesting debate as to whether that is appropriate.  Suppose you get a quick rider who overslept along the way and is suddenly very FV... do you DQ them because they were just outside an intermediate control closing time calculated on the higher minimum speed?   When they'd have been inside the time if it had been worked out at the nominal 15kph (or whatever) ?  And is quick enough to make up the difference by the end?

No maybe not but I guess we could flag up the effects of over distance.  As a full value rider however I would be very aware of of how much time/distance I had left

[citoyen]

And that to me means the basic premise of this ride was wrong- you can't get to Chester from Windsor without either a) riding unsuitable roads or b) being significantly over distance.

Depends what you think the premise of the ride is. The original WCW died out because the roads became unsuitable, and it was revived last year more for its historical significance than anything special about the route. Tbh, it was mainly that historical significance that persuaded me to enter.

[ad441]

Aside from the food, one of my best memories of the ride is an owl flying along a lane in front of me for what seemed like ages. Lots of bats as well.

Another rider encountered an owl too. This one flew straight into him though. Clearly they're not always as sharp witted as you might think.

Thick as two short planks, apparently.  Those massive eyes take up space that could otherwise be occupied by brains.

Yes, owls being wise is a total myth. I was told that so much of their brain is occupied by having unbeliavably sophisticated hearing that there's not a lot left over for anything else. But it depends how you define intelligence of course - they're very good at what they do. Hearing a mouse heartbeat from the other side of a field is more useful that being able to do crosswords when you're an owl.

(sorry, I'm aware the conversation has moved on from owls somewhat)