Coming soon - the all new Windsor-Chester-Windsor

[Aunt Maud]

This is where it pays to do your homework and suss out the AUK and ACP rules before hand. I've been lucky to ride with some very experienced riders last season, LWaB, HK, Postie and Ivo included, and I've learnt a good few lessons from them. One of them is to do your homework and chose a route to suit your style and ability and account for its length.

I can see where LWaB is coming from and a significant over distance will come as a surprise to anyone bumping up against the time limit for whatever reason, if they've not accounted for it when they started out.

But I can't imagine that it was done to trip anyone up and I know that Danial has put in a hell of a lot of work to organise the WCW on our behalf. I didn't ride it, but thanks for organising it anyway.

[redfalo]

It's an interesting debate as to whether that is appropriate.  Suppose you get a quick rider who overslept along the way and is suddenly very FV... do you DQ them because they were just outside an intermediate control closing time calculated on the higher minimum speed?   When they'd have been inside the time if it had been worked out at the nominal 15kph (or whatever) ?  And is quick enough to make up the difference by the end?

The key question to answer probably is this: What's the actual purpose of having specific closing times for intermediate controls? I'm just guessing here but

1) one reason could be making cheating more difficult. You cannot get a lift or jump on a train if you're out of time at an intermediate control. 

2) it makes the organisation of a control easier, as it is defines a specific time where the volunteers can stop working, while slow riders cannot complain

3) making sure the rider actually keeps the minimum distance over the whole event

4) giving the rider orientation about how he is doing time-wise

For 1) and 2), it does not matter which specific minimum distance is being used. For 4), the actual  minimum distance rather than the 15 kph would be more helpful. For 3), it would be a judgement call if you want riders to go at 15 kph or the actual minimum speed.

I am probably missing something, but I don't see a compelling reason to use the 15 kph for control times on BRM rides which are significantly over distance.

[αdαmsκι]

FFS. A bloody good ride with fantastic controls, food & sleep options is organised for the amazingly price of £30. Some people DNF-ed, which will always happen on an audax. For people to then complain about the route is very annoying, esp. if you didn't even ride the route. If you don't like the look of the ride then don't ride the route, or modify the route because it's free route between controls.

As for the over distance and hilliness there were plenty of warnings in the emails I received about the event. For example:

It's a longish route at 624km, but fast if you concentrate on your navigation. It's not hilly but it's not flat either, so perfect for a first 600km ride. To qualify for Paris, you'll need a minimum average speed of 15.6kph, so keep an eye on your time if you are expecting to ride at the time limits.

Please note that I have been unable to carry out a final check on the routesheet this week as planned. Apologies for any bugs that are in the routesheet - please keep your wits about you and be sure to look over the route before you start so you know where you going.

Although this isn't a hilly event, there are sections that are pretty hilly. The section between Chalgrove and Weston passes through the Cotswolds, with plenty of short, steep hills to challenge tired legs on the way back.

Where possible, the route avoids main roads and large towns. However this hasn't always been possible. I'd like to draw your attention to two sections in particular:

• Between Kidderminster and the Hartlebury control, the route uses the A449 for about 3km. This road is narrow and winding, and can be busy. There are alternative, longer routes, or you can use the pavement alongside the road.
• Between Glympton and Chipping Norton the route takes the A44. There shouldn't be too much traffic, but that traffic can be quite fast. Again, there are alternative routes if you plan ahead.

Basically, we were warned it was over distance, hilly in parts & bits of A road.

[Hummers]

Overdistance, underdistance, underarm....this is not the real caterpillar in the cabbage patch 

The real deadly delay delivered by stealth was by the helpers at the controls!

Conversation, soup, tea, tools, cake, tea, cake and did I mention cake?

This evaporated all discipline of 20 minutes at each control for all but the most ardent tea-hater, I am sure.

Still, none of this will be delivered on PBP - leastways not in an English accent 

H

[Phil W]

I have to agree with Danial about the speedy  controls compensating for the over distance. 

For me, the first 312km to Christleton Control were faster than this and last year's 300's which weren't over distance.  My full elapsed time for this 600 was also less than last year's and the year before 600's,  neither over distance, and mostly comparable in terms of climbing.   The GPS data tells a tale, I spent less time stopped when just getting stamped and fed, than I do when at commercial controls. I spent an extra hour sleeping than normal. So I was more refreshed on Sunday.

I suspect that some got lulled into lingering at the controls, because they were so nice, and so didn't benefit from the time advantage that could be had. I don't think I spent any less time sat eating and drinking, it's just that there was next to zero queue time, before or after.

So the key with this one is to take the advantage of speedy controls for both food, drink and stamping. I ate at every control both ways, which is more than I do on less supported events, but stop time was still much less.

[Delph Cyclist]

No maybe not but I guess we could flag up the effects of over distance.  As a full value rider however I would be very aware of of how much time/distance I had left

It would perhaps be more helpful if the intermediate controls weren't set at 15kph (which is 600/40), but rather at ((total distance)/40) kph.  That way, there wouldn't be the situation where you might just scrape into the penultimate control just within time, but with an impossibly short period of time in which to complete the final leg.

A ride of 620km requires you to get round at a minimum of 15.5kph

[LMT]

Isn't that a consequence of free-route-between controls?

Not in this case. The difficulty here is that while it's possible to get from Windsor to Chester and back in under 600km, it means using unpleasant roads. To route along roads you'd actually want to cycle racks up the extra distance. You then rack up extra distance by making the event full service, as you have to route to the controls you can find.

I could have probably brought this in at around 610km if I'd used a bunch of garages as controls, but that isn't the event I wanted to run. If you were committed to riding PBP and were a marginal candidate, you would have gone to Alfreton or Cheadle and ridden something flat and short and well-attended. You wouldn't have ridden, say the Kernow and South West. But for the bulk of riders aiming for Paris, WCW does the job just fine.

Culling riders? Did somebody honk the hyperbole klaxon?

Hear hear, people knew what the crack was before they signed up regarding the distance and timings. Personally I don't mind garage stops or looking at fields of cabbages which is why I went with the Flatlands. Each to their own and good luck with LEL.

[redfalo]

I luckily don't know how strict organisers were with regard to riders arriving out of time, but there obviously is an issue if riders who shortened the route were homolgated while those who stuck to it and arrived out of time due to the OD were disqualified.

[LMT]

I luckily don't know how strict organisers were with regard to riders arriving out of time, but there obviously is an issue if riders who shortened the route were homolgated while those who stuck to it and arrived out of time due to the OD were disqualified.

How is this a problem when no rules were broken?

[Phil W]

The route was also great. I'm not a fan of the main roads, but to be fair they were ok, and I did fly down them on the way back.  The laney bits were my favourite, but they always have been. Controls and volunteers fantastic. Food options just right for what you could digest at the time.

[αdαmsκι]

I luckily don't know how strict organisers were with regard to riders arriving out of time, but there obviously is an issue if riders who shortened the route were homolgated while those who stuck to it and arrived out of time due to the OD were disqualified.

Is there any issue if someone shortened the route by, say riding up & down the A41 from Sambrook to Christledon and still DNF-ed because they were out of time?

[marcusjb]

Could all this stuff about overdistance, intermediate control times, allure libre and possibly even owls be chopped away from the thread about the ride?  It was fab- I might grumble about over-distance from time to time, but the reality is that's it's another hour on my bike and that is just  with me (even when it hurt like feck).

[billyam998]

I cannot agree more with Adamski's post I can't be bothered to quote it, people were told several times, it's not difficult, bung the routes on gpx editor, strava or, similar and visualise what you have to do. Build in coping strategies and, off you go.

I didn't factor going a over t in a ford, but pretty much everything else went to plan. My 200, 300 and 400 splits were all significantly faster than the similar qualifying events, which meant to me the last 200 was a breeze.

 22km of a 600 km ride what's that in % - 5%? I am no Einstein, if 22km is the make or break distance for you completing an event then you need to be looking at the route and working it out for yourselves.

It was brilliant, cheap and, for the most part traffic free, my total expenses for the actual ride were a pack of batteries and 2 mars bars, what's not to like? Come on people.

Lastly as for Alfreton being flat - I think not,  hahahaha. I can't wait for the whining about that to start.

[Oscar's dad]

Despite DNFing and having a bitch and moan on Sunday at a control about why the fuck couldn't the ride have been Windsor - Nearly Chester - Windsor (comments I'm ashamed of now) I agree with alwyn and adamski.

Had I done the Flatlands I'd of probably been ok. But I couldn't and don't want to / can't find an emergency 600 just to qualify so that's my PBP 2015 fucked. It's a bitter disappointment but I'll live!!!

[alfapete]

I have to agree with others about Hartlebury - the food was great at all the controls, but Hartlebury wins the prize. The lentil soup was just what I needed when I got there, and I followed that up with some of Wobbly's most excellent bread pudding. It was really hard to resist the temptation to sample a bit of everything on the table, it all looked so good, but I restricted myself to sticking a bit of flapjack and a couple of those raw chocolate brownies in my pocket for nibbling en route. Those raw chocolate brownies... omg... they were incredible. And not only did they taste amazing, they were like rocket fuel - I ate them about halfway along the next stage and they seemed to put a real zip in my legs. Bloody marvellous!

Thanks for the appreciation, Citoyen - much appreciated. I'll pass on your comments about the food to those responsible who aren't OTP.

Re: FAFFING at controls: I may be unqualified to comment, having never gone further than 300km, but the inordinate amount of time spent lounging at the control surprised me greatly, especially by those who were at the tail end of the field on the way north (ie after only 170km). Several must have spent almost an hour with us doing little other than eating  and chatting 

[marzipan]

I'm one of the full value riders that DNF'd (out of time, not packed).
I knew about the overdistance (there was plenty of notification), I prepared my own control & sleep times, based on my own plan, taking into account my own riding speed. It had a decent buffer of about 2 1/2 hours

In reality, I figured I would probably use up some (or maybe a lot) of this buffer.  Especially as it was my first 600. Once over 400, I was riding into the unknown about how my body would cope with so little sleep and whether I would get extra dozies during the day.

As I've said before in an earlier comment, I had about 3 stages (best part of 200k) feeling very ropey  indeed, but when I was feeling fit, I rode well and according to my plan.  Unfortunately for me, the feeling fit again, simply came a bit too late to catch up on the previous bits where illness meant I had to go a lot slower than I wanted to.
Although I didn't finished the full distance in the time limit, I observed that I did actually finish my first 600k of riding within the time limit, which still made me feel good, and confirmed that I can actually do these distances.  I didnt feel like I was being 'culled' at all. I entered this ride with the full knowledge that it had lots of rolling hills, which I enjoy.  I would have hated Flatlands, even if it was supposed to be an easy 600.

Put simply, the route was about as hilly as I expected, as long as I expected, and I adjusted my times that I could spend at controls to take account of the fact that I'm not one of the fastest riders.  The fast riders got several hours sleep, I knew I could only afford an hour or so.

Surely no one comes onto a 600k ride oblivious to some of the key features (distance/gradient/controls), especially if new to it.

Personally, I still loved the ride, loved the controls and would do it again next year if it were to run.
Well done to everyone involved in the ride, and i would say, don't change a thing.....
.........................except maybe that info control looking at peoples front doors in the darkness and hidden signposts.

It all gets a big  from me

[LittleWheelsandBig]

To be clear:
Well organised - good, want more of that.
Well supported - great, want that too.
Pretty route - good stuff.
Overly long (for a BRM) - not good, particularly in a PBP year.

Do whatever you like with a BR event, the time limit matches the ride length. Once you are talking BRM, 5% extra gets tough. If you don't think so, trim the time limit by another 5% and see how many marginal folk enjoy that situation. There are several examples of folk finishing PBP and being very marginal to finish BCM in BRM time.

[Pedal Castro]

Some quick thoughts, I may write up a proper report for my blog later.

600km is a long, long way! This was my first 600 and for most of the second day I convinced myself that I wouldn't do another one, ever! In fact I was questioning the point of even doing PBP for which I was fairly confident of qualifying. Now, three days later the never again thoughts have subsided  Reminds me a bit of when immediately after giving birth to the first of our four children, Mrs PC said "don't ever let me do that again".

My plan was to ride to a Max HR on day 1 and use lighter gears than usual. This worked as my legs have recovered much more quickly than after the LlanfairPG 400.  We did have to push it on day 2 as the section from Chester back to Lilleshall was a lot slower than expected, mainly due to my riding buddy having real issues with staying awake. At one point we stopped on Wembury railway station platform, where we found a shelter out of the rain so that he could power nap.

As a consequence of the slow overnight section, I calculated that we needed to reduce time at controls to near zero, based on distance left to ride. Carlos couldn't be convinced by my argument because he was working on control closing times, and I couldn't put my finger on why he was wrong at the time although it has been explained upthread. Luckily the tailwind on the long leg 9 took the time pressure away and we were able to finish with an hour to spare.

As has been said already the volunteers at the controls were amazing. I liked the variety of food available, every control was different. I would have liked to have spent more time at each control and been more sociable but we had somewhere to be...

It was also nice to be able to put a few faces to forum names.

[jsabine]

Re: FAFFING at controls: I may be unqualified to comment, having never gone further than 300km, but the inordinate amount of time spent lounging at the control surprised me greatly, especially by those who were at the tail end of the field on the way north (ie after only 170km). Several must have spent almost an hour with us doing little other than eating  and chatting 

This is the single biggest reason I DNFd LEL.

I still faff far too much, but at least now I've had it drummed into me that if I'm not eating, sleeping or using the loo, I'm wasting time.

[mmmmartin]

I'm deeply ashamed to grass up some controls that should remain nameless and admit that I was out of time by a few minutes and received a cheerful, helpful welcome, a stamp, some CAIK, and was on my way within minutes. Thank God for them, what splendid chaps.
Listen up, dudes, I might have made it and had a PBP entry if it had been 601k: but it wasn't; you won't hear a single peep out of me. This was a great event, well thought through and staffed by fantastic volunteers. It was what it was and if you wanted a different event then bloody well enter one.

[gustibus]

If I'm not eating, sleeping or using the loo, I'm wasting time.

I may have that tattooed on my arm.

Should cover most life requirements.

[Chris S]

Re: FAFFING at controls: I may be unqualified to comment, having never gone further than 300km, but the inordinate amount of time spent lounging at the control surprised me greatly, especially by those who were at the tail end of the field on the way north (ie after only 170km). Several must have spent almost an hour with us doing little other than eating  and chatting 

This is the single biggest reason I DNFd LEL.

I still faff far too much, but at least now I've had it drummed into me that if I'm not eating, sleeping or uor sing the loo, I'm wasting time.

Having a Stoker on the bike really helps!

fboab: "You fill the water bottles, I need a pee, then we're outta here!"
me: "I was hoping for another breakfast"
fboab: *stern look* "Really...?"
me: "Nah."

[Martin]

To be clear:
Well organised - good, want more of that.
Well supported - great, want that too.
Pretty route - good stuff.
Overly long (for a BRM) - not good, particularly in a PBP year.

Do whatever you like with a BR event, the time limit matches the ride length. Once you are talking BRM, 5% extra gets tough. If you don't think so, trim the time limit by another 5% and see how many marginal folk enjoy that situation. There are several examples of folk finishing PBP and being very marginal to finish BCM in BRM time.

I presume that calendar events still require to conform to min distances via Google maps as per perms & DIYs? (as nobody has MS AutoRoute any more?)

in which case my experience is that it's 5% overdistance when ridden anyway

I think this discussion needs to move across the road...

[redfalo]

I luckily don't know how strict organisers were with regard to riders arriving out of time, but there obviously is an issue if riders who shortened the route were homolgated while those who stuck to it and arrived out of time due to the OD were disqualified.

How is this a problem when no rules were broken?

I assumed that BRM rides were run subject to ALL ACP rules, but that does not seem to be the case. My bad, sorry! Good to know for future rides.

[Wobbly]

I so wish that YACF had the facility to vote posts up (or down)

There are sooo many posts above that I wholeheartedly agree with, but quoting them and adding "+1" wastes so much bandwidth.