Author Topic: Teflon coated brake and gear cables, are they a good idea?  (Read 7256 times)

Gattopardo

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Teflon coated brake and gear cables, are they a good idea?
« on: 15 October, 2018, 08:07:39 pm »
Looking at replacing the cables and outers on a friends bike that lives outside in brighton.  Saw this and thought that this would be a good idea for this bike as the cables are rusty...

Does that mean special outers are needed?

Re: Teflon coated brake and gear cables, are they a good idea?
« Reply #1 on: 15 October, 2018, 09:25:42 pm »
yeah, magic ones that won't jam up with bits of the coating on the inner cable..... ::-)  ;)

My advice; stick to polished stainless steel inners

cheers

Re: Teflon coated brake and gear cables, are they a good idea?
« Reply #2 on: 16 October, 2018, 08:46:53 am »
I agree with Brucey.  There, I've said it!  ;D

Personal experience is that the coating is extremely fragile and easy to strip. I don;t think it's necessarily enough to jam a cable, but the difference in effort required between the Teflon coated and standard SS is negligible.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: Teflon coated brake and gear cables, are they a good idea?
« Reply #3 on: 16 October, 2018, 10:35:15 am »

Does that mean special outers are needed?

You would definitely need new special ferules, since standard ferules will strip the coating off in no time. Worn outer cables can also be so abrasive that it is a problem.

Even with new outer cables and special ferules I would rate the durability of Teflon coated cables as rather limited.

They do reduce friction when new, and I can see how they can be a problem solver for some whose setup for some reason have inherent high cable friction, if they are prepared to change cables frequently.

Personally I consider Teflon coated cables a niche product that for most people cause more problems than they solve. I didn't even bother installing the latest Teflon coated cable I got with my cable set purchase, but used a stainless steel cable from Jagwire instead.

--
Regards

Gattopardo

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Re: Teflon coated brake and gear cables, are they a good idea?
« Reply #4 on: 16 October, 2018, 12:03:57 pm »
yeah, magic ones that won't jam up with bits of the coating on the inner cable..... ::-)  ;)

My advice; stick to polished stainless steel inners

cheers

Once again, the wrong answer that I wanted to hear  ;)  That is a joke by the way.  Part of me was thinking that, but modern inners have plastic liners.  My logic is that modern motorbike cables are teflon coated so no longer need lubrification and are straight replacement.

Bike lives outside and the alleged stainless steel cables have gone rusty, mind you so have the specialised geometry saddle rails!



Does that mean special outers are needed?

You would definitely need new special ferules, since standard ferules will strip the coating off in no time. Worn outer cables can also be so abrasive that it is a problem.

Even with new outer cables and special ferules I would rate the durability of Teflon coated cables as rather limited.

They do reduce friction when new, and I can see how they can be a problem solver for some whose setup for some reason have inherent high cable friction, if they are prepared to change cables frequently.

Personally I consider Teflon coated cables a niche product that for most people cause more problems than they solve. I didn't even bother installing the latest Teflon coated cable I got with my cable set purchase, but used a stainless steel cable from Jagwire instead.




I have at least four bikes that need recabling and outering. So was thinking to buy tubs of the parts and 20m of outer too instead of buying the kits for one bike.



I agree with Brucey.  There, I've said it!  ;D

Personal experience is that the coating is extremely fragile and easy to strip. I don;t think it's necessarily enough to jam a cable, but the difference in effort required between the Teflon coated and standard SS is negligible.

The reduction in effort is not what I am after, I'm after any water getting in to the cables won't rust or corrode the inner or outer.


Re: Teflon coated brake and gear cables, are they a good idea?
« Reply #5 on: 16 October, 2018, 12:18:43 pm »
stainless steels vary and they are all 'corrosion resistant' not 'corrosion proof'.   They only don't corrode because of a thin layer of chromium oxide on the surface. If this is stable and will reform in the event that it is breached, the surface is said to be 'passivated'.

Things that help are

-polishing the surface of the stainless steel
- conditions which have a reasonable oxygen potential and a lack of certain ions

things that don't help are

- chemistry; eg high strength brine (such as you might get if sea water or winter road spray dries on the bike) will breach most stainless steels

- wet anaerobic conditions.

Inside cable housings, if they fill with water, conditions can turn anaerobic and this can even rot stainless steel. The inners come out looking black and horrible; the blackness is caused by corrosion.

The primary defence is to keep the water out of the housings, using sealed ferrules of some kind, (or having the top end of the cable housing run facing downwards or something).  The lube in the cables makes a big difference too.   An absolute no-no is to have a cable housing run which is both open at the top and has a low point/ loop in it (eg under the bottom bracket) which can allow water to pool inside. Even the gentle run down the chainstays of an IGH cable can allow water in (forwards) and this is a common cause of IGH cable problems.

cheers

Re: Teflon coated brake and gear cables, are they a good idea?
« Reply #6 on: 16 October, 2018, 12:34:03 pm »
Or use Di2 and hydro discs  :thumbsup:

Kim

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Re: Teflon coated brake and gear cables, are they a good idea?
« Reply #7 on: 16 October, 2018, 12:38:46 pm »
The primary defence is to keep the water out of the housings, using sealed ferrules of some kind, (or having the top end of the cable housing run facing downwards or something).  The lube in the cables makes a big difference too.   An absolute no-no is to have a cable housing run which is both open at the top and has a low point/ loop in it (eg under the bottom bracket) which can allow water to pool inside. Even the gentle run down the chainstays of an IGH cable can allow water in (forwards) and this is a common cause of IGH cable problems.

Absolutely this.

I consider cable outer to be a yearly consumable on recumbents with underseat steering and folding bikes that get exposed to significant rain.  Once there's water in a cable loop, it's on borrowed time.

Things I've found that seem to help on bikes where such loops are unavoidable:
-Taping up the slot in the leading edge of MTB brake levers to keep rain from being driven at the open end of the cable.
-Greasing the inner where it emerges from the outer.
-Boots and careful choice of ferrules.
-Riding with my hands covering the bar-end shifters on USS bars as much as possible when caught in a downpour.
-Putting a bag over USS controls when parking the bike outdoors.
-Flushing the outer through with lube once symptoms start to occur (an oil port helps with this)...
-...but not being shy about replacing the outer when it inevitably deteriorates.  Having a bulk roll of the stuff to hand helps.

I haven't found an appreciable difference between pre-lubing cables and installing them dry.

I've had a couple of teflon coated inner cables (came with bikes) and wasn't impressed.  I found much of the coating had rubbed off the cable when I removed the working cables to change the shifters.

Re: Teflon coated brake and gear cables, are they a good idea?
« Reply #8 on: 16 October, 2018, 12:52:37 pm »
FWIW where a loop is unavoidable, and conditions are harsh, I have even installed a deliberate drain point in the loop to let the water out.  This is a last resort but it seems to help.

cheers

Gattopardo

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Re: Teflon coated brake and gear cables, are they a good idea?
« Reply #9 on: 16 October, 2018, 01:01:20 pm »
Or use Di2 and hydro discs  :thumbsup:

If you are paying.... ;D

stainless steels vary and they are all 'corrosion resistant' not 'corrosion proof'.   They only don't corrode because of a thin layer of chromium oxide on the surface. If this is stable and will reform in the event that it is breached, the surface is said to be 'passivated'.

Things that help are

-polishing the surface of the stainless steel
- conditions which have a reasonable oxygen potential and a lack of certain ions

things that don't help are

- chemistry; eg high strength brine (such as you might get if sea water or winter road spray dries on the bike) will breach most stainless steels

- wet anaerobic conditions.

Inside cable housings, if they fill with water, conditions can turn anaerobic and this can even rot stainless steel. The inners come out looking black and horrible; the blackness is caused by corrosion.

The primary defence is to keep the water out of the housings, using sealed ferrules of some kind, (or having the top end of the cable housing run facing downwards or something).  The lube in the cables makes a big difference too.   An absolute no-no is to have a cable housing run which is both open at the top and has a low point/ loop in it (eg under the bottom bracket) which can allow water to pool inside. Even the gentle run down the chainstays of an IGH cable can allow water in (forwards) and this is a common cause of IGH cable problems.

cheers

The bike is a decent specialised Rockhopper, so cable runs seem fine.

Is the sealing like to gore cable kits.

Not sure how good the inners were, as I said the saddle rails have heavily corroded.  Bike lives outside in a basement area a few streets up from the seafront.

It is for a 'friend' so that they will cycle or is that say they have a cycle.

Kim

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Re: Teflon coated brake and gear cables, are they a good idea?
« Reply #10 on: 16 October, 2018, 01:05:57 pm »
FWIW where a loop is unavoidable, and conditions are harsh, I have even installed a deliberate drain point in the loop to let the water out.  This is a last resort but it seems to help.

Yup.  If there's going to be an inline barrel adjuster, this is a good place to put it (as long as it's not going to get snagged on things and require frequent re-adjusting).

Gattopardo

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Re: Teflon coated brake and gear cables, are they a good idea?
« Reply #11 on: 16 October, 2018, 01:07:53 pm »
I wish I hadn't been press ganged in to doing this. :facepalm:

thing1

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Re: Teflon coated brake and gear cables, are they a good idea?
« Reply #12 on: 16 October, 2018, 01:32:32 pm »
People used to rave about Gore RideOn cable system, teflon inner and outer surface and some kind of weatherproof seal. Very expensive and hard to source, market forces took care of discontinuing them

As a next nearest option for the tandem I bought a bulk load of Fibrax teflon inners years ago that I'm still working through. Mostly wanting to reduce all possible friction in long tandem gear runs.  I've had very few if any fail through rusting up, hard to say if that's the cables or other factors. My default position before reading this would be to buy the same again blindly assuming steel cables would be inferior, but if we successfully do the planned di2 upgrade it'll be moot.

Re: Teflon coated brake and gear cables, are they a good idea?
« Reply #13 on: 16 October, 2018, 03:17:13 pm »
one thing that has slightly changed in recent times is that jagwire now do an 'ultimate' gear cable. This has an unprecedently good polish on it, and seems to allow even fincky 10s systems to run without recourse to coated cable inners.

These cables even feel slicker than other polished cables when you run them through your fingers.  Thus if you are concerned about cable friction being too much unless you use a coated inner, but that a coated inner might cause troubles (and this can happen in many cases...) then there is another way.

cheers

Gattopardo

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What brake and gear cables for a bike that will live outside
« Reply #14 on: 22 October, 2018, 11:22:29 am »
What would you recommend

Re: Teflon coated brake and gear cables, are they a good idea?
« Reply #15 on: 22 October, 2018, 11:44:06 am »
bike living out of doors is both good and bad. Bad because it might see salt spray carried from the sea, (as well as road salt etc) good because it will be rinsed off whenever it rains.  Saddle rails of often go rusty PDQ on such bike because they don't get rinsed adequately.

I'd use stainless steel cables for sure but coated or uncoated, I couldn't be sure that there wasn't ever going to be some corrosion because of the local conditions.

Instances of cabling that has been done very carefully and then left outdoors are not that common.  I have one bike that has lived outdoors for decades (but not near the seaside) and it needs new gear cables now. The old ones are at least fifteen years old.  The cables have jammed once or twice because there was an (originally undrained, now drained) loop in the runs at the BB (not using cable housing BTW) but have otherwise been fairly reliable, mainly because water couldn't easily get into the housing runs from the top. The (stainless) inners are still OK, but the cable housing (shimano SIS stuff) is now cracking on the outside. When this happens water gets in and the (parallel strand in this case) reinforcement soon starts to rot, and it is only a matter of time before the cable housing bursts.  IIRC I originally assembled the cables with a little finish line PTFE grease and this has needed redoing/supplementing once I think. This was less easy than with most systems because the housing isn't in slotted guides.

 BTW  I may just wrap some tape around the cracked housing and leave well alone for a while longer yet.

cheers

Kim

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Re: Teflon coated brake and gear cables, are they a good idea?
« Reply #16 on: 22 October, 2018, 11:44:34 am »
If they're getting hammered by salt I'd use cheaper stainless cables and replace them more often.  A normal-shaped bike doesn't need advanced low-friction cables the way a tandem or recumbent might, and they'd probably corrode at about the same speed.

If it's someone else's bike and you want fit-and-forget, I'd recommend minimising the amount of bowden cables by whatever means is appropriate: Coaster brakes, single-speed, hydraulics, Di2, etc.  Then run away screaming.

Maybe a rain cover for storing the bike would help a bit?

woollypigs

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Re: Teflon coated brake and gear cables, are they a good idea?
« Reply #17 on: 22 October, 2018, 12:42:16 pm »
As said pretty much by all up thread, don't do much different. If bike is to be used in all weather and year: stainless cables, apply grease when installing and apply the magic potion called "regularly cleaning/service" to the bike.

If you do that, your cables will last as long as anything else that got this years trend attached to it. Heck why spend extra coin on something that has a high risk of snaring or breaking in a drop or when parked in a public place.

When we cycled a lot and I did regular cleaning/service on the bikes, I often couldn't remember when I last put a new cable in. If it ain't broke why fix it when a spot of grease/lube and scrub behind the ears would do.
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Gattopardo

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Re: Teflon coated brake and gear cables, are they a good idea?
« Reply #18 on: 22 October, 2018, 02:00:55 pm »
Thank you for the advice, the cycle owner spent alot of money at the specialized store in brighton and the bike looked rusty quite quickly.  Especially the chain.  So stopped using it.

In that case I'm off to ceeway tomorrow and see what cheap cables they have ;)

Bike won't get cleaned or serviced so stainless and marine grease it is :)

Gus

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Re: Teflon coated brake and gear cables, are they a good idea?
« Reply #19 on: 22 October, 2018, 02:53:44 pm »
Been using "Jagwire Sport" on my Salsa Fargo. They have performed flawless through Africas heat and shi**y wet salty danish winters for the last 5 years.
Putting something more posh on will be foolish when it works so well.
I admit I gave the cables 5 drops of liquid wax when they were mounted i 2012. :-X :-X

woollypigs

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Re: Teflon coated brake and gear cables, are they a good idea?
« Reply #20 on: 22 October, 2018, 03:07:52 pm »
Yeah the LBS I worked in, Jagwire was the posh option compared to the cheap stuff that we got by the roll.

If owner heard us when we told them to keep the bike clean and try to store under cover. The most we had to do to the cables, when the bike came in for a check over service was to re grease them. Only times we had to change the cables or the outer was when they had broken because of a drop or they got snared while putting bike away or on roof rack or loads of time had past since the last service.
Current mood: AARRRGGGGHHHHH !!! #bollockstobrexit

Kim

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Re: Teflon coated brake and gear cables, are they a good idea?
« Reply #21 on: 22 October, 2018, 03:39:50 pm »
Thank you for the advice, the cycle owner spent alot of money at the specialized store in brighton and the bike looked rusty quite quickly.  Especially the chain.  So stopped using it.

In that case I'm off to ceeway tomorrow and see what cheap cables they have ;)

Bike won't get cleaned or serviced so stainless and marine grease it is :)

A fully nickel-plated chain probably a worthwhile investment, then.

Re: Teflon coated brake and gear cables, are they a good idea?
« Reply #22 on: 22 October, 2018, 05:19:09 pm »
or a stainless one....?

cheers

Gattopardo

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Re: Teflon coated brake and gear cables, are they a good idea?
« Reply #23 on: 25 October, 2018, 02:41:07 pm »
Chain recommendations then?

Kim

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Re: Teflon coated brake and gear cables, are they a good idea?
« Reply #24 on: 25 October, 2018, 03:49:32 pm »
SRAM PC991 is my chain of choice for my shitty weather utility bike.  I've never had one rust solid, unlike Shimano...