Cramps & Carbs

[Marmitegeoff]

I did not find that the cordial and a pinch of salt worked for me.  But I use Lucozade sport diluted 50 to even 30% of the original strength, and try to drink 500ml per hour,  do not often make it but it is a good target if you are sweating a lot.  Colour of your pee is a good indicator of your hydration state,  pale yellow is OK any darker, drink more.

[JohnR]

Thanks for contributing geoff,

It is highly probable I am dehydrating too much on longer rides. I hydrate myself up the previous day, checking pee colour as you suggest, and top up in the morning of a long ride. During the ride is the problem of me not drinking enough, usually about 500ml per 4 hours, which is pathetic compared to your's. I will be trying to drink more from now on without electrolytes as stated earlier. I will report here how I get on, Thanks.

[tonyh]

Good luck John and thanks for posting about this.
I'm another probably-inadequate drinker. Cramps are rare (every 6 months or so) but very violent when they do occur - I keep "Lo-Salt" handy for emergencies (it needs to be within very easy reach!). Never sure if it really helps, but at least it's some sort of action.

[hellymedic]

Lo-Salt is high potassium!
I'd be wary of taking that if hot and dry.

[tonyh]

Ah, thanks Helly! (I thought the low-Sodium was a Good Thing. I'm too ready to Believe things. I guess it's all a minefield if you stray off the safe path!)

[hellymedic]

Sweat contains much sodium and only a little potassium.
Fruit juice is potassium rich and there's usually enough sodium in a normal diet for normal needs.
You *might* need a bit more sodium if you're sweating profusely and eating little savoury food.

It's not an easy juggling act sometimes!

[Feline]

If you drink loads of water and eat bananas you will be fine. I don't eat gels or put anything in my water ever (not even on PBP or LEL). So long as you can eat well on rides of more than 12 hours your body can get the electrolytes it needs from food and you don't risk dehydration. Your body will have massive amounts of potassium stored inside your cells it can draw on if blood levels fall. It takes a long long time to deplete intra-cellular potassium. Your body needs to be well hydrated for the mechanisms of shifting this stuff around to work properly though.

(Admittedly I am not riding at pro cyclist kinds of speeds- but then I wouldn't be faster with stuff in my water )

[rafletcher]

Sweat contains much sodium and only a little potassium.
Fruit juice is potassium rich and there's usually enough sodium in a normal diet for normal needs.
You *might* need a bit more sodium if you're sweating profusely and eating little savoury food.

It's not an easy juggling act sometimes!

Some peanuts would aid salt addition, with low GI protein too 

[T42]

Sweat contains much sodium and only a little potassium.
Fruit juice is potassium rich and there's usually enough sodium in a normal diet for normal needs.
You *might* need a bit more sodium if you're sweating profusely and eating little savoury food.

It's not an easy juggling act sometimes!

Squeam warning!

Back when I was a blithe young ignoramus (as opposed to a crabby old ditto as now) I once thought to myself "well if we lose electrolytes in sweat why not recycle a little?" So on one ride I channelled the sweat o'me brow into my mouth, licked upper arms, etc.  Oh what delicious nausea ensued after another 50k. Sweat is excretion, not just electrolyte loss.

[tonyh]

...when I was a blithe young ignoramus (as opposed to a crabby old ditto as now)...

(Incidentally, you seem to have grasped the essentials of my life history, very well.)

[Ningishzidda]

I find the most ideal vehicle to get salt back in the system is a baked potato.
5 g of salt can be loaded on a jacket. With some butter and chilli con carne, it’s almost tasteless and nausea rarely ensues.

[T42]

Pizzerias are the best long-distance refuelling stations I know: fast service, tasty food, good choice. Good balance, too, if you avoid masses of cheese.

[mrcharly-YHT]

How to tell if you are low in salt and really need it.

Take ordinary orange juice. Dissolve some salt in it. If it tastes delicious, you are low in salt.

Utterly unscientific I know but seems to work.

I seem to recall that cramps are linked with nerve signals not reaching the muscles to tell them to *stop* contracting. The nerve signals could be weak, could be blocked by build up of toxins (but usually only from anaerobic state or extreme exhaustion).

Weight training  can help increase the ability of your nerve system to maintain a powerful signal.

Now potassium, that's interesting. You eat 2 bananas a day then are taking supplements containing potassium:

High concentrations of potassium (K+) also causes the muscle cells to decrease in efficiency, causing cramping and fatigue. Potassium builds up in the t-tubule system and around the muscle fiber as a result of action potentials. The shift in K+ changes the membrane potential around the muscle fiber. The change in membrane potential causes a decrease in the release of calcium (Ca2+) from the sarcoplasmic reticulum.

Could be too much potassium in your diet!

[Canardly]

Have you tried tonic water/bitter lemon both of which contain a little quinine?

[JohnR]

Now potassium, that's interesting. You eat 2 bananas a day then are taking supplements containing potassium:

High concentrations of potassium (K+) also causes the muscle cells to decrease in efficiency, causing cramping and fatigue. Potassium builds up in the t-tubule system and around the muscle fiber as a result of action potentials. The shift in K+ changes the membrane potential around the muscle fiber. The change in membrane potential causes a decrease in the release of calcium (Ca2+) from the sarcoplasmic reticulum.

Could be too much potassium in your diet!

I eat 2 bananas per day but am taking Magnesium supplement not potassium.

[JohnR]

Have you tried tonic water/bitter lemon both of which contain a little quinine?

Tried tonic water - hate the taste. Same for bitter lemon, although i sometimes use lemon cordial.

[mrcharly-YHT]

Now potassium, that's interesting. You eat 2 bananas a day then are taking supplements containing potassium:

High concentrations of potassium (K+) also causes the muscle cells to decrease in efficiency, causing cramping and fatigue. Potassium builds up in the t-tubule system and around the muscle fiber as a result of action potentials. The shift in K+ changes the membrane potential around the muscle fiber. The change in membrane potential causes a decrease in the release of calcium (Ca2+) from the sarcoplasmic reticulum.

Could be too much potassium in your diet!

I eat 2 bananas per day but am taking Magnesium supplement not potassium.

Bananas are high in potassium.
Some of the low salt 'substitutes' are very high (potassium tastes 'saltier' than sodium salt so in theory you need less off it).

Point I'm trying to make is that you might not need any supplements at all, and maybe try some extra physical training to increase the strength of your nerve impulses.

[JohnR]

From what I've read, a banana has about 420mg of potassium and the rda is about 4,800mg, which would mean I would need to eat about 10 bananas per day to equal the rda.

I am generally cycling in the gym twice a week for an hour at a time and riding each sunday (weather permitting) about 40 - 50 miles each time and have been doing that for about a year now.

I understand what you are saying, but I am still having cramps on longer rides, so there must be something else going on?

[Jakob]

Eat more fat/protein.  Have eggs & bacon with your breakfast.
It's the obvious thing that's lacking from your diet.

[Feline]

The cramps could well be due to lactate buildup. Whatever you eat won't alter this- only conditioning and training will. The older you are the longer it might take too.

[JohnR]

The cramps could well be due to lactate buildup. Whatever you eat won't alter this- only conditioning and training will. The older you are the longer it might take too.

When I was a 15 - 17yo I used to race my bike, health and fitness no problem, racing around was great. Then I started work and nothing until about 25 years ago when I used to play a lot of squash and cycle tour round the country on my heavy steel bike I was very fit. Then last 25 years or so again nothing to speak of on the fitness side of life until 2 years ago when I returned to cycling.

Oh my goodness how my fitness has changed! Through all of this I cannot say I have ever had the lactate burn in my muscles people talk about. When I train on the gym bike, I either do an hour in heart zone 2/3 or sometimes do anearobic intervals in zone 4/5 where my heart rate is around 165-170 bpm (max about 181bpm, min about 50 bpm) I feel my muscles working hard but no lactate burn. I can confidently agree that as we get older fitness is much harder to gain and keep. At present I ride at a heart rate of between 140 and 165 bpm depending on conditions etc. but never feel over pressed somehow other than my legs utterly refusing to put more pressure on the blinking pedals up hills.

Perhaps I do have lactate build up without the symptoms, but this doesn't explain the disappearance of the cramping feeling when I drink (this could be de-hydration rather than electrolyte deficiency). Still trying to work it through. 

[T42]

Dehydration will bring on cramp every time. Drink.

[JohnR]

Update, just finished a 50Km ride.
Breakfast was porridge and a banana, no toast as we had no bread. Took a flapjack and one 500ml orange and barley drink with pinch of salt.
Hydrated day before with usual test. Drank a further 330ml of fruit drench in foyer of sports centre before event. Did not take emergency electrolyte tabs.

Simply rode round rather slowly as I was on my steel heavyweight for comfort. Have cramped on this ride before, so was a leap of faith.
Billy wind was blowing and I could feel my right quads straining over the rolling hills of Oswaldtwistle (my nemesis) so drank more juice which seemed to do the trick 
Finished event in Owd Bett's pub where a pint of black sheep was well earned! No cramps today, whoopee!

I still need to drink more on the bike but a good start.

[tonyh]

Dehydration will bring on cramp every time. Drink.

Anecdotal confirmation yesterday: 11 hours riding, managed to get down a litre of juice and half-litre of water. Cramp afterwards.

[JohnR]

Thought I'd update this from my experimentation. I've done a few 70 to 80Km rides and the real test of yesterday's 200Km audax where I have tried hard to drink more fluids on bike rides without electrolyte addition. I have found if I drink plenty, I don't cramp! Take yesterday for example, I took 2 500ml bottles which I drunk one within the first 32 Km, where I then had 2 cups of tea. My last bottle lasted another 30 odd Km where I had a cup of chocolate and refilled nmy bottles for the return journey. I drank often during the ride and never had a cramp or had the feeling of cramps coming on! This is as a result of advice earlier from T45 & Tonyh.

As far as eating enough for a bike ride to keep fuelled up is concerned, I can honestly say I have found that tired muscles certainly do respond from frequent eating during a long ride.