Author Topic: Surcharges to be banned  (Read 11033 times)

Re: Surcharges to be banned
« Reply #25 on: 19 July, 2017, 07:06:37 pm »
Some approximation to that *is* standard practice.

mmmmartin

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Re: Surcharges to be banned
« Reply #26 on: 19 July, 2017, 08:08:50 pm »
My recollection is that the surcharge for using PayPal was less than the cost of the stamp to send the envelope, plus the stamp on the envelope to have the routesheet posted to me plus the stamp on the envelope to have the validated brevet returned after the event. And when orgs started to hand over a validated brevet at the end of the event I was in seventh heaven. I now have loads of envelopes bought for audax use that I'm very slowly getting through. I expect my daughter will check them out when she comes home from my funeral.
Besides, it wouldn't be audacious if success were guaranteed.

Re: Surcharges to be banned
« Reply #27 on: 19 July, 2017, 08:42:05 pm »
PayPal already have in their terms and conditions that you can't charge a different price to other payment methods. We came across that when setting up the LEL Shop for the merchandise.

I'd not noticed that.  But as I find PayPal entries SO much easier to process I actually charge less for PayPal for my events.  I wonder if that is a breach of their terms?

I recently had my first events with zero postal entries.  Perfect.

Re: Surcharges to be banned
« Reply #28 on: 20 July, 2017, 03:32:59 am »
Bloomin govt interfering again.Next they will probably ban us paying for brevets with a chicken or a rabbit.

Bianchi Boy

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Re: Surcharges to be banned
« Reply #29 on: 20 July, 2017, 08:12:26 am »
I think some of us are misunderstanding the ruling. What it means is that retailers are not allowed to charge more for the same service, it has nothing to do with the charges levied by the handling compnies. This does not apply to AUK entries as there is a differentiation in the service provided. The envelope and the stamp need to be added for the PayPal entry, so for this extra service there is a charge.

Also as members of a club we should be trying to make the organisers life as easy as possible. If it makes the organisers life easier with PayPal we should use it. If we are really bothered about the fee we should drive to the organisers house and pay them in cash. Or ride over on our new titanium custom special with Campag Record and then start an argument about the £1 fee. While complaining about the cost of entering Sportives (that we do not ride) pointing out that we get eight Audax rides per Sportive entry.

We should get a grip and make the organisers life as easy as possible.

BB
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Wycombewheeler

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Re: Surcharges to be banned
« Reply #30 on: 20 July, 2017, 06:45:47 pm »
If AUK is ever to appeal to the "younger generation" then *all* types of 21st century payment methods need to be acceptable.

If this isn't a veiled request that AUK accept payment in nude selfies, I don't know what is.
the term negative equity comes to mind.

Eddington  127miles, 170km

Re: Surcharges to be banned
« Reply #31 on: 20 July, 2017, 06:56:17 pm »
From October you will be able to pay in a cheque by taking a picture of it on your mobile phone. You will also get good value the next day.
https://www.chequeandcredit.co.uk/information-hub/faqs/cheque-imaging

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Re: Surcharges to be banned
« Reply #32 on: 20 July, 2017, 07:56:26 pm »
From October you will be able to pay in a cheque by taking a picture of it on your mobile phone.
What's coming in in October is cheque clearing by image - the bank scans the cheque you pay in, and sends the scan to central clearing.

It's up to your bank to provide an app that will allow you to securely send an image of a physical cheque rather than taking the paper to the bank. That can't happen before central clearing starts using images, and some banks may not offer an app for some considerable time.

Ben T

Re: Surcharges to be banned
« Reply #33 on: 20 July, 2017, 09:54:14 pm »
It's not dependent on payment method, but surely it could be made standard practice for riders to send SAEs if they require a printed route sheet and return of brevet card, and not if they're happy to print their own RS from a pdf or use a GPS? There's no point sending route sheets to people who aren't going to use them or are happy to print their own, nor sending brevet cards back to people who aren't interested in keeping them. Some audaxers treasure their completed brevet cards and relish the sound of a C5 envelope containing several sheets of printed A4 landing on the doormat, some don't care about it. Unless it somehow makes the organiser's work easier to send envelopes?

No, exactly, there's no point sending the brevet card back either if you're not arsed about it.
I've even dared to suggest once or twice to organisers that I'm not bothered about it,  but am usually then looked at like I've sprouted a second head, so usually just let them send it.

Martin

Re: Surcharges to be banned
« Reply #34 on: 20 July, 2017, 10:57:27 pm »
from my days as a DIY org the fee / Paypal had to be the same all over the UK no matter which DIY organiser but it's up to org's discretion for calendars / other perms. For ECEs /  my perms I charge the standard £2.50 postal or £3 Paypal, Paypal actually leaves ne out of pocket after they take their cut if the entrant wants a paper brevet posted but it all comes out in the wash

I don't think it's broke / needs fixing personally

Ben T

Re: Surcharges to be banned
« Reply #35 on: 21 July, 2017, 09:17:51 am »
Whether we agree with it or not may be by the by, it's the law. But if it were me I think I'd be on slightly shaky ground/relying on a technicality to say it's for the envelope. What a lot of events currently say is "£x / £y when paying by paypal", which would appear to directly contravene the ruling of not being able to charge more based on the payment method. At the very least you would have to change it to "£x / £y if you would like the card/routesheet sent back in an envelope" - but that of couse would imply you can pay by paypal but still not bother with the envelope and a stamp, which a lot of people would probably do.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Surcharges to be banned
« Reply #36 on: 21 July, 2017, 09:42:42 am »
It's not dependent on payment method, but surely it could be made standard practice for riders to send SAEs if they require a printed route sheet and return of brevet card, and not if they're happy to print their own RS from a pdf or use a GPS? There's no point sending route sheets to people who aren't going to use them or are happy to print their own, nor sending brevet cards back to people who aren't interested in keeping them. Some audaxers treasure their completed brevet cards and relish the sound of a C5 envelope containing several sheets of printed A4 landing on the doormat, some don't care about it. Unless it somehow makes the organiser's work easier to send envelopes?

No, exactly, there's no point sending the brevet card back either if you're not arsed about it.
I've even dared to suggest once or twice to organisers that I'm not bothered about it,  but am usually then looked at like I've sprouted a second head, so usually just let them send it.
The organiser of an event I recently rode sent an email to all finishers asking if they would like the card posted back or if they were happy for him to dispose of it.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Surcharges to be banned
« Reply #37 on: 21 July, 2017, 10:01:54 am »
Whether we agree with it or not may be by the by, it's the law. But if it were me I think I'd be on slightly shaky ground/relying on a technicality to say it's for the envelope. What a lot of events currently say is "£x / £y when paying by paypal", which would appear to directly contravene the ruling of not being able to charge more based on the payment method. At the very least you would have to change it to "£x / £y if you would like the card/routesheet sent back in an envelope" - but that of couse would imply you can pay by paypal but still not bother with the envelope and a stamp, which a lot of people would probably do.

I would agree that as this is a legal requirement, organisers will need to remove the surcharges for card/paypal entries by 13th January 2018. I don't think that the suggestion that offering a different service for cheque/cash payments compared to card/paypal payments would be viewed as complying with the law. You could offer 2 different services (one fulfilled electronically, and one via post), but should offer each to any payment method.

Minimum payment amounts can be enforced still after 13th January 2018. So shops can still say that the minimum amount for paying by credit/debit card is say £10. This could potentially offer an option for organisers to have dual pricing, with the lower priced-service only available for cheque/cash payments as it would be below the minimum payment amount. I would think this might be viewed rather dubiously though.

Given that we already have calendar events on AUKWEB for 2018 events which will fall foul of the new requirements, I would think a statement from the AUK legal team to organisers would be the most appropriate action, rather than for individual organisers to interpret the new law themselves.

Eddington: 133 miles    Max square: 43x43

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Re: Surcharges to be banned
« Reply #38 on: 21 July, 2017, 10:16:52 am »
In which case you may get a better response taking thisover to the official AUK forum.
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Re: Surcharges to be banned
« Reply #39 on: 21 July, 2017, 11:08:11 am »
It's already being discussed over there, at least in the Board private bit.

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Re: Surcharges to be banned
« Reply #40 on: 21 July, 2017, 09:45:00 pm »
I'm guessing the law is more aimed at the likes of Ryanair, Ticketmaster with £££ turnover than a cycling club having different pricing by 50 pence.

While technically having the different prices may be illegal I doubt the CPS would consider it within the public interest to take an organisor to court.
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Re: Surcharges to be banned
« Reply #41 on: 21 July, 2017, 10:23:14 pm »
Mmm. I'm sure initial enforcement - once it comes in - is likely to be aimed at the juiciest targets, but that's not really the point.

I think I disagree with pscyclist inasmuch as I think [event entry and brevet card processing],  paid for by cheque with SAE supplied, can be distinguished from [event entry, brevet card processing, and brevet card postage], paid for online at a higher price, but equally I don't think it's worth dicking around for the sake of 50p here or a quid there.

Bairdy

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Re: Surcharges to be banned
« Reply #42 on: 22 July, 2017, 12:19:00 am »
Paypal isn't the only online payment answer/provider.
I dunno if anybody has had dealings with this small U.K based company?
https://www.nochex.com/gb/company-news/

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Re: Surcharges to be banned
« Reply #43 on: 22 July, 2017, 01:36:42 am »
Instead of a surcharge, are you allowed to give a discount for your preferred payment method?

frankly frankie

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Re: Surcharges to be banned
« Reply #44 on: 22 July, 2017, 11:29:50 am »
Discounts are supported in AUK's system currently, and a few organisers do this.  It's not decided yet what if anything will change next year.

I'm guessing the law is more aimed at the likes of Ryanair, Ticketmaster with £££ turnover than a cycling club having different pricing by 50 pence.

That's a bit like passing a 'Road Closed' sign saying "I'm a cyclist, that doesn't apply to me".
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Kim

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Re: Surcharges to be banned
« Reply #45 on: 22 July, 2017, 01:41:23 pm »
I'm guessing the law is more aimed at the likes of Ryanair, Ticketmaster with £££ turnover than a cycling club having different pricing by 50 pence.

We know how those sort of laws get enforced, thobut.  They may not go after a cycling club in itself, but a general clampdown on PayPal users seems likely.


That's a bit like passing a 'Road Closed' sign saying "I'm a cyclist, that doesn't apply to me".

Except that most of the time when you get to the closure you do find out it doesn't (or at least, it doesn't apply to pedestrians, which most cyclists are capable of becoming temporarily).  In the absence of further information it's usually worth passing a 'Road Closed' sign to investigate.

mattc

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Re: Surcharges to be banned
« Reply #46 on: 22 July, 2017, 07:39:07 pm »
I would imagine this is a very labour-intensive thing to check. Paypal only see their transaction - they don't see what other deals their customer is doing through other channels.

So I reckon AUK organisers will be very very low down the list of miscreants to be investigated. Like the VAT-man checking sales of used derailleurs on YACF.

(That's not to say we shouldn't follow the law on principle! That is a different debate. )

Aside: who would be "guilty"? AUK (for providing the web interface) or organisers (for setting the fees) ?
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Re: Surcharges to be banned
« Reply #47 on: 23 July, 2017, 10:11:53 am »
The risk would be an entrant, or potential entrant, raising a complaint.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Re: Surcharges to be banned
« Reply #48 on: 23 July, 2017, 12:35:13 pm »
Maybe an organizer can confirm this but my understanding from chatting with people is that on rides where pay pal is available very few use the snail mail option.

It cant be difficult just to work out a price where everyone pays the same and the overall revenue remains pretty much the same?

I think it inevitable that if we don't comply eventually some small minded person will complain .




Re: Surcharges to be banned
« Reply #49 on: 23 July, 2017, 02:34:49 pm »
As noted above, the board are more than aware of the situation, and appropriate guidance will be forthcoming ... It's all a bit speculative at the moment anyway, at least until the legislation comes out.