Sportive trumps Road Race

[mattc]

I don't share The Panel's feeling that sportives are inferior to RR's; they are just different.  I don't like the commercialism and sexing up of what are basically Relaibility Trials by sportive organisers but have nothing against the concept (and ones in the rest of Europe are superb)

The problem is that the commercial/sexed-up version is exactly what we get in Britain, and I don't see it changing!

[When I rode Paris-Roubaix, it was actually an Audax, at AUK-ish price - although you would never have guessed, looking at the bikes, riders, and support RVs -  so I've seen the other side of this debate.]

If it get Bums on Seats who cares?

We've been through this before; it can't be answered in 20 words and I can't be arsed at the moment! (but you're wrong)

[Martin]

I don't share The Panel's feeling that sportives are inferior to RR's; they are just different.  I don't like the commercialism and sexing up of what are basically Relaibility Trials by sportive organisers but have nothing against the concept (and ones in the rest of Europe are superb)

The problem is that the commercial/sexed-up version is exactly what we get in Britain, and I don't see it changing!

I agree; and I see it getting much worse, and with the advent of all these cherridy challenges (BHF "FNRTTC" etc) cycling is looking more and more like an expensive and gruelling hobby to the layman, but I don't think TT'ers RR'ers and Audaxers need worry just yet

[citoyen]

Bums on seats isn't an end in itself. If it were, we'd be better off focusing our recruitment efforts on everyday cycling than sportives (or audax or racing, for that matter).

d.

[David Martin]

They get round being classified as races because the person with the fastest time is not seen as the 'winner'. So kind of like a time trial in that regard.

This is by-the-by, but: I'm pretty sure the fastest rider in a TT is the winner!

Time trials are covered in the legislation and there are specific requirements. ie, groups of no more than 4 set off at more than 1 minute intervals.  Any other trial of speed is a bicycle race and I would expect that the lawyers would have something to say about that. You can have bicycle races of arbitrary size but they are subject to authorisation by the police. If the sportive is taking times then it could well be a trial of speed and subject to the regulations, even if the competitors do not start at the same time. The regulations are explicit that if it is not a time trial and is a trial of speed  (for which a definition is given) then it is a bicycle race. A sportive would appear to fall into that category.

http://lvrc.org/documents/road_traffic_act_1960.pdf refers.

[citoyen]

If the sportive is taking times then it could well be a trial of speed and subject to the regulations, even if the competitors do not start at the same time.

IME, sportives don't just take times, they often classify riders as eg "Gold", "Silver" or "Bronze" according to their time, so it seems slightly surprising that they aren't already considered "trials of speed".

It's not only sportives - some audaxes could fall foul of this too. The Tour Of The Surrey Hills, for example, is nominally an audax but riders are given an award based on their finish time, though of course the times and awards aren't published in any official AUK documentation.

d.

[David Martin]

It doesn't stop sportives from happening, but there is no defacto presumption that they can happen. They would be authorised under a different section of the legislation.

I am loathe to suggest stirring this up as the knock on effects could be counter-productive. It might be better to move large scale highway events to local council authorisation as then there is some democratic control. it might be far worse.
 

[Martin]

The important distinction is that a TT sportive (or reliablility trial) only allows a few riders off at a time; and the placing is calculated by elapsed time rather than FPTP. So you don't have the scenario of a large peloton all trying to do the same thing at the same time; that seems to be the hazard for the police.

RTs specifically limit the maximum overall speed to IIRC 18mph (that was the case when I organised one) perhaps sportives should do the same? (although hard to police as all that happens IMX is riders hang around round the corner before the finish on RTs)

[David Martin]

Read the legislation. Letting a few off at a time is only OK if they are not racing each other. If you set off a group in a trial of speed where the individuals are racing each other then it is a bicycle race. End of. It doesn't fall under the definition of a time trial so it is a bicycle race.

[mattc]

If the sportive is taking times then it could well be a trial of speed and subject to the regulations, even if the competitors do not start at the same time.

IME, sportives don't just take times, they often classify riders as eg "Gold", "Silver" or "Bronze" according to their time, so it seems slightly surprising that they aren't already considered "trials of speed".

It's not only sportives - some audaxes could fall foul of this too. The Tour Of The Surrey Hills, for example, is nominally an audax but riders are given an award based on their finish time, though of course the times and awards aren't published in any official AUK documentation.

We've been through all this, just 2 weeks ago!
http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=56869.0
TOSH just has several time limits, not the single one that Audaxers are used to. There's no prize for first, and your times aren't published. How can that be a race? 

[rogerzilla]

I don't believe sportives have rules forbidding drafting and compelling a caught rider to ease off/make way for a faster rider.  TTs do.

The photos I've seen of sportives suggest that people form big bunches regardless of whether they are set off at intervals.  OK, we ride in pelotons on YACF rides and so does the CTC, but we're not racing.  Unless it's the Uxbridge Road and the cafe is 2 miles away.

[David Martin]

That isn't the test. It is clearly defined in the legislation. Andif it isn't a TT, and is a test of speed between riders then it is a race.

A sportive could get round this by only making individual results available. As soon as you publish a finishing list with times the water becomes muddier.
 

[phil d]

Who's organising the sportive?.  There is little chance of it being rearranged since (as Bobbi Flekman says in Spinal Tap) money talks and bullshit walks, but you could suggest to them that they check the race calendar before future events.

I am rather surprised that a sportive requires no special permissions, since a lot of participants will obviously be racing against one another.  In fact, it's worse because you can't take away the licence of a sportive rider who repeatedly crosses the white line or rides dangerously, but you can for a racer.

That's the real issue for me. 500+riders not only don't need permission; the police can't stop the event. All you say is true, but also the public can't be expected to distinguish a sportive from a properly organised road race - it's loads of cyclists in racing kit with numbers on.

Then, when the next road race applies for permission, there's a whole lot of local opposition, and formal complaints that will affect the police's attitude.

As Roger and Paul said earlier, the technicality of what is a race and what isn't is irrelevant, or very easily could be.  If public perceptions are adversely coloured by the behaviour of the riders in a sportive (and as Paul points out the average man in the street won't distinguish the difference) and there is an increase in complaints it is going to impact on the attitude of the police towards all cycling events.  Possibly including audaxes.  If there is a will, I'm sure that "the authorities" will find a way to intervene.

I just hope that there doesn't become the will to do this.

[mattc]

Don't worry Phil. The only big groups I've ridden in recently have set off at 0730* hours. Sportifs don't get out of bed until 10!


(*a very sensible time - popular/big Audaxes sometimes produce bunches of 30+ in the early miles. Before 0800, most roads even in the SouthEast are pretty quiet. It's not inconceivable that an Audax could be an 'obstruction', but I've ridden a few biggies, and we really aren't materially affecting any road users. Yet

LEL had some annoying short steep climbs at the start to shatter our nascent gruppeto!)

[Martin]

but Audax events don't exist anyway; they are people doing a private excursion on the public highway following a suggested route between controls (if they wish to). All AUK does is verify that on that private excursion they happened to have ridden x00 km within x hours 

and enough of this anti-sportivism already; we want to come across as an open all-encompassing forum don't we? 

[rogerzilla]

We're the evil twin of BikeRadar, locked in the attic and fed on a diet of fish heads.

[mattc]

and enough of this anti-sportivism already; we want to come across as an open all-encompassing forum don't we? 

Do we?

My next event will be a pro-bloodsports fund-raiser - that should sort out YACF loyalties 

[David Martin]

A scottish race has had to be cancelled due to a sportive on the same day. It is a shame as it is a traditional race that has been held for years (repeats of, not the same one of course).

[rafletcher]

A scottish race has had to be cancelled due to a sportive on the same day. It is a shame as it is a traditional race that has been held for years (repeats of, not the same one of course).

I assume the same thing could happen if a non-sportive mass participation ride was taking place - like the many organised/signed/supported "charity" rides.  No timekeeping by the organisers at all on the couple I've ridden. And yes, I can read a map, and could have made my own ay over to the routes and doen it myself, but it was the "entering" of the event that gave me the impertus to go there.

FWIW I don't agree that sportives (or charity rides, or audax) should be allowed to disrupt longstanding regular races (this assumes the races have a fixed and defined time in the calendar and could therefore be anticipated), but it appears to be a legislative issue (or interpretation of them by the Powers that Be) that's partially responsible. If you are convinced the legislation applies to sportive events (and others where speed/time are considered in the results - (published or not?)) then raise it with the relevant authorities. Someone has to start the ball rolling if you feel strongly enough about it.

I'm not likely to ride sportives - I have no inetrest in racing anyone other than myself and maybe a friend or two - but the "dentists on Pinarellos" type of slur is tiresome when used to describe all sportive riders.  It's equally valid to describe all "proper" racers as Wiggins/Cav wannbees, and a bloody nuisance to traffic, just depends on your point of view and sympathies.

[mattc]

... but the "dentists on Pinarellos" type of slur is tiresome when used to describe all sportive riders. 

It's quite offensive to be told that I only see one type of participant on these rides. Please credit me with some intelligence.  For one thing, there aren't enough Pinarellos ...

(And read my posts).

Quite frankly, my issue is with the promoters. The riders (who, I stress, are a varied bunch) are mostly not aware of the problem - they're just buying the best product that has been shown to them, via endless pages in Cycling Weekly. CW will devote more pages to the MarioCorps £100 ride than it did to Paris-Brest-Paris.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Sportives happen on public roads which are not closed for the occasion, so there's nothing to stop anyone riding the same course at the same time. It's a bit cheeky maybe, but as long as you don't try to take a free energy bar you wouldn't actually be doing anything 'wrong'. So how about a relay of riders in matching YACF jerseys on big old roadsters - all-rounder handlebars, rod brakes, balloon tyres? Get enough people in the 'team' and no one would have to ride far, so everyone could go flat out. Imagine the conversations among the entrants afterwards:

-Did you see that rider on the old Dutch bike?
-With a wicker basket on the front? They were going like the clappers!
-I saw him at the first feed station, he went straight past and didn't even stop!
-He? I thought it was a she. Never mind, I saw them near the finish and they were still flat out.
-Really impressive stamina.
-Yes. From the Yeovil Agricultural Cyclists Federation.
-Well, he did have a sheepdog in the basket.