GPX OR NOT GPX?

[lmm]

I had misremembered my issue with RideWithGPS; as others have said, it only demands premium if one wants to download with waypoints. I stand by my "please don't use it" as waypoints make a huge difference. I'd happily pay a higher entry fee if organisers need to cover hosting expenses or anything like that, but it feels wrong to me to have a site profiting off the organiser's work that way.

Maybe my sense of justice is misaligned - if an organizer finds its a tool that adds value for them then I can live with that - but certainly it's not something I would favour as a rider.

[FifeingEejit]

250 USD for the rwgps Club account isn't bad.
The functionality provided probably cost over 100000 to implement.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

[jiberjaber]

I had misremembered my issue with RideWithGPS; as others have said, it only demands premium if one wants to download with waypoints. I stand by my "please don't use it" as waypoints make a huge difference. I'd happily pay a higher entry fee if organisers need to cover hosting expenses or anything like that, but it feels wrong to me to have a site profiting off the organiser's work that way.

Maybe my sense of justice is misaligned - if an organizer finds its a tool that adds value for them then I can live with that - but certainly it's not something I would favour as a rider.

Waypoints only make a difference to devices which recognise them.  I don't believe mine does. Again, it's one of the 'hundred' different versions an organiser shouldn't be expected to accommodate.

Best option is a gpx and route sheet. Part of preparing is to run through the route sheet and gpx to familiarise yourself with the route, at that point it's the opportunity for the rider to add such embellishments as they may want, eg waypoints, cue points, warnings etc

[Manotea]

250 USD for the rwgps Club account isn't bad.
The functionality provided probably cost over 100000 to implement.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Depending on what you include there might be a 0 or 2 missing on that figure...

[mattc]

...

Maybe my sense of justice is misaligned - if an organizer finds its a tool that adds value for them then I can live with that - but certainly it's not something I would favour as a rider.

Perhaps its similar to paying PayPal? A necessary evil!

[FifeingEejit]

250 USD for the rwgps Club account isn't bad.
The functionality provided probably cost over 100000 to implement.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Depending on what you include there might be a 0 or 2 missing on that figure...

More likely 4 if you include the initial development of the features collated into the club account.


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[Phil W]

I had misremembered my issue with RideWithGPS; as others have said, it only demands premium if one wants to download with waypoints. I stand by my "please don't use it" as waypoints make a huge difference. I'd happily pay a higher entry fee if organisers need to cover hosting expenses or anything like that, but it feels wrong to me to have a site profiting off the organiser's work that way.

Maybe my sense of justice is misaligned - if an organizer finds its a tool that adds value for them then I can live with that - but certainly it's not something I would favour as a rider.

Waypoints only make a difference to devices which recognise them.  I don't believe mine does. Again, it's one of the 'hundred' different versions an organiser shouldn't be expected to accommodate.

Even my old Edge 500 (no longer used for audax) handles up to 100 waypoints.  So I'd find it strange if later Edge units don't.  Waypoints are part of the standard GPX schema  and I wouldn't see marking of controls as embellishment.  Controls form the basic structure of an audax, more than an outline of a route in fact, as we are mostly talking advisory here in the UK.  Imagine the location of controls wasn't indicated in the routesheet but was seen as embellishment.

[rob]

I've only moved to GPS navigation this year but have used organiser provided files that vary in the level of detail but have all been accurate.   I have also used a .FIT file from the previous edition of the same ride, loaded to ridewithgps and then exported a GPS track to the new device.   All seem to work fine.

What you still need to do, as a rider, is to study the route and make a note of where the controls are.   On Saturday's ride several people had been to the wrong location in one town despite this being made very clear in the organiser notes.   Similarly I have been at a roadside control getting my card stamped when a group of about 10 riders went stomping past without stopping.

[jiberjaber]

I had misremembered my issue with RideWithGPS; as others have said, it only demands premium if one wants to download with waypoints. I stand by my "please don't use it" as waypoints make a huge difference. I'd happily pay a higher entry fee if organisers need to cover hosting expenses or anything like that, but it feels wrong to me to have a site profiting off the organiser's work that way.

Maybe my sense of justice is misaligned - if an organizer finds its a tool that adds value for them then I can live with that - but certainly it's not something I would favour as a rider.

Waypoints only make a difference to devices which recognise them.  I don't believe mine does. Again, it's one of the 'hundred' different versions an organiser shouldn't be expected to accommodate.

Even my old Edge 500 (no longer used for audax) handles up to 100 waypoints.  So I'd find it strange if later Edge units don't.  Waypoints are part of the standard GPX schema  and I wouldn't see marking of controls as embellishment.  Controls form the basic structure of an audax, more than an outline of a route in fact, as we are mostly talking advisory here in the UK.  Imagine the location of controls wasn't indicated in the routesheet but was seen as embellishment.

I think you've taken it to far there Phil - of course the controls are going to be on the route sheet - that's the point of it. 

I have no idea what you mean about waypoints, I load the route on my Garmin Edge (was 1000, now 1030) and I follow the purple line of righteousness.  I have tried with waypoints and I get no alerts or anything different to the route without, therefore they make no difference to my experience. This may not be the case for older GPS units.

[vorsprung]

Revellinho, if you have never navigated a ride by GPS then you are missing out.  It is a lot easier.  Setting up the damn thing in the first place is the nuisance but once you are riding, it's great.  When I started riding er 2003 I used route sheets and everyone did.  Rode LEL 2005 with routesheets only for example.  Can't remember when I got my GPS.  My blog seems to think 2012

I've run an event for about 10 years (it's being retired this year) and now I think everyone follows the gps track
I supply a 10000 point gpx which works with my eTrex20 and it's up to everyone to make it work with their crazy WooHey devices or 30 year old ex-military geo caching gps or whatever.  I work in IT support for a living I am not interested in fixing problems on an unknown set of GPS devices.   

I agree that it should be easier to get the track from an event onto your device but the problem lies with the devices and how they are non standard

Having a club RWGPS subscription sounds like an excellent idea

[Delph Cyclist]

... many entrants don't have the means to mount a routesheet ...

I find that hard to believe.  I attach the route sheet, in a plastic bag (supplied free of charge at most event start controls), to my left wrist using an elastic band (supplied free by Royal Mail).  As a back up, I also take my right wrist along on the ride, and there's usually a spare elastic band around my spare inner tube.

But I would welcome some guidelines for what constitutes a universally useful GPX file.  I have evolved the following personal guidelines for when I'm creating GPX files for my own events:

• provide in separate legs rather than one big file (to reduce file size)
• plot on BikeHike to allow plotting off-road stretches
• save as "gpx track"
• title of file must be identical with the <name> tags
• don't use multiple <trkseg> tags

I then load that to RideWithGPS so that I can load an interactive map to my website's page for that event, so that entrants can get a visual representation of where we are going, such as at http://www.delphcyclist.info/RuthinPerm.html

I would welcome some idea of what constitutes "too big" for a universally useful GPX file, because I don't use them myself when on a ride

[grams]

Beyond the older devices with an artificial 500 point limit, I don’t there’s such a thing as too big for anything you might export from a route planning site, at least for brevet length rides.

I much prefer a single track as it’s only one thing to import and I don’t have to juggle them at controls. But other people might have the opposite preference depending on how their devices work.

[lmm]

I also prefer a single file, FWIW, but that's one question where I don't think there's any universal answer.

But as to the rest, I've never seen a file that was too big or had too many waypoints, so I'd err on the side of including all the ones you have. Those whose devices have a limit can always downsample, and the worst a device will do with waypoints is ignore them, whereas if the information isn't in there then there's no way to put it back.

[FifeingEejit]

... many entrants don't have the means to mount a routesheet ...

At the most basic Pages stuck in a sealled poly pocket in the back of the jersey, dig out for a check every x junctions.
Where x is the number of junctions you can remember...

[Hot Flatus]

It doesn't really matter what the file format is or if it is a single route or chopped up. If it can be loaded into RWGPS, then it can be replotted however you like and downloaded in whatever format you like. It takes a few minutes. When I first started audaxing in 2006 I was one of very few gps users (and carbon bike user) and trying to plot a route on memory-map (predated googlemap systems like bikehike) or googlemap based pages took ages.

Some people take a bit longer than others to realise the value of new technology., but that is their choice.

[Delph Cyclist]

I also prefer a single file, FWIW, but that's one question where I don't think there's any universal answer.

But as to the rest, I've never seen a file that was too big or had too many waypoints, so I'd err on the side of including all the ones you have.

In fact what I tend to do is provide a zipped folder containing one GPX file for each leg between controls, and one big file for the whole ride, and let riders sort themselves out.  I still get queries from those new to GPX cycling, not quite knowing how to upload them, but I'm in no position to help and can only refer them to their device's user manual.

But the ideal scenario (in my view) is that my riders would take my route sheet, or my detailed map of the ride, and plot their own GPX, as part of their pre-ride preparation.  That way, they'd be more aware of where the heck they were going, and can react better to any on the day issues such as road closures.  But I'm a bit old school that way.

[Hot Flatus]

I dont think it is an orgs job to provide technical help. A gpx file is a welcome bonus as it is much easier to plot a gpx route if you know the roads, thanntrying to decipher a routesheet

[grams]

But the ideal scenario (in my view) is that my riders would take my route sheet, or my detailed map of the ride, and plot their own GPX, as part of their pre-ride preparation.

I've occasionally indulged in that (trying to plot a GPX from the route sheet alone), but you spend a disproportionate amount of time on certain little sections going up and down Street View either looking for sign posts or trying to work out priorities at junctions where three country lanes meet so you know where the road turns on the longer stretches between instructions. I don't think it actually gives you a great feel for the route overall.

(though it's certainly better than turning up having not looked at the route at all)

[Karla]

I think we need to get over the idea that computer illiteracy is a normal and acceptable state of affairs for people these days. Computers have been around for decades, they've been popular did a couple of decades now; if someone can't cope with converting a gpx file into their own niche format for their own obscure device, that's their own problem.

[Revellinho]

Revellinho, if you have never navigated a ride by GPS then you are missing out.  It is a lot easier.  Setting up the damn thing in the first place is the nuisance but once you are riding, it's great.  When I started riding er 2003 I used route sheets and everyone did.  Rode LEL 2005 with routesheets only for example.  Can't remember when I got my GPS.  My blog seems to think 2012

I've run an event for about 10 years (it's being retired this year) and now I think everyone follows the gps track
I supply a 10000 point gpx which works with my eTrex20 and it's up to everyone to make it work with their crazy WooHey devices or 30 year old ex-military geo caching gps or whatever.  I work in IT support for a living I am not interested in fixing problems on an unknown set of GPS devices.   

I agree that it should be easier to get the track from an event onto your device but the problem lies with the devices and how they are non standard

Having a club RWGPS subscription sounds like an excellent idea

I tried it once on a ride round the Lakes.  I just could not get on with it - it was just a line on an otherwise blank screen.  Perhaps its because I only have a Garmin 500 and the display is so primitive.  Also I have slipped into the habit of wanting to see numbers all the time on the device, I'm one of those who does endless calculations as I plod along and things would be otherwise glum.

[S2L]

Revellinho, if you have never navigated a ride by GPS then you are missing out.  It is a lot easier.  Setting up the damn thing in the first place is the nuisance but once you are riding, it's great.  When I started riding er 2003 I used route sheets and everyone did.  Rode LEL 2005 with routesheets only for example.  Can't remember when I got my GPS.  My blog seems to think 2012

I've run an event for about 10 years (it's being retired this year) and now I think everyone follows the gps track
I supply a 10000 point gpx which works with my eTrex20 and it's up to everyone to make it work with their crazy WooHey devices or 30 year old ex-military geo caching gps or whatever.  I work in IT support for a living I am not interested in fixing problems on an unknown set of GPS devices.   

I agree that it should be easier to get the track from an event onto your device but the problem lies with the devices and how they are non standard

Having a club RWGPS subscription sounds like an excellent idea

I tried it once on a ride round the Lakes.  I just could not get on with it - it was just a line on an otherwise blank screen.  Perhaps its because I only have a Garmin 500 and the display is so primitive.  Also I have slipped into the habit of wanting to see numbers all the time on the device, I'm one of those who does endless calculations as I plod along and things would be otherwise glum.

Around the lakes a route sheet is fine, you probably have a turn every half an hour... try using a route sheet around built up areas, where you have a turn every 3-4 minutes...
50 turns (or other direction) in as many Km is not that uncommon.
Horses for courses, and a routesheet has its severe limitations, a GPX works fine in both scenarios

[FifeingEejit]

But the ideal scenario (in my view) is that my riders would take my route sheet, or my detailed map of the ride, and plot their own GPX, as part of their pre-ride preparation.

I've occasionally indulged in that (trying to plot a GPX from the route sheet alone), but you spend a disproportionate amount of time on certain little sections going up and down Street View either looking for sign posts or trying to work out priorities at junctions where three country lanes meet so you know where the road turns on the longer stretches between instructions. I don't think it actually gives you a great feel for the route overall.

(though it's certainly better than turning up having not looked at the route at all)

It also ballses up when the priority on the road has changed since GSV (and/or occasionally the org) was last there and the route sheet is only telling you when you need to turn off the priority route.

[Jon+1bike]

 

Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?

« Reply #43 on: Today at 03:28:52 pm »

Quote

I think we need to get over the idea that computer illiteracy is a normal and acceptable state of affairs for people these days. Computers have been around for decades, they've been popular did a couple of decades now; if someone can't cope with converting a gpx file into their own niche format for their own obscure device, that's their own problem.

Seems You missed the first statement.. not everyone is as perfect as you! I used to be able to many things on computers, which is now beyond me, I'm sure I'm not alone !!

[mattc]

I think we need to get over the idea that computer illiteracy is still a normal very common and perfectly acceptable state of affairs for people these days.

Is that better?

<writes an IT professional>

[Ian H]

But the ideal scenario (in my view) is that my riders would take my route sheet, or my detailed map of the ride, and plot their own GPX, as part of their pre-ride preparation.

I've occasionally indulged in that (trying to plot a GPX from the route sheet alone), but you spend a disproportionate amount of time on certain little sections going up and down Street View either looking for sign posts or trying to work out priorities at junctions where three country lanes meet so you know where the road turns on the longer stretches between instructions. I don't think it actually gives you a great feel for the route overall.

(though it's certainly better than turning up having not looked at the route at all)

It also ballses up when the priority on the road has changed since GSV (and/or occasionally the org) was last there and the route sheet is only telling you when you need to turn off the priority route.

I find it pretty easy to do it in this fashion:  a) plot shortest between controls, then  b) check whether instructions appear to match the route.  If they do then fine, otherwise,  c)  scan for any obvious correlations and drag the route there.  Generally a couple of drags will suffice to make it all fall into place.

The above does assume a reasonably competent routesheet.