Scottish Mesh and Perms

[mr magnolia]

I'd like to butt in and say how much I'm enjoying this discussion, and how I'm even more looking forward to understanding it. 

If I've grasped it, though, it seems to be a mechanism to avoid the questioning look that comes over my face when I click on the 'scottish perms' bit of the AUK website, that reveals SFA?  We need some perms so I have a chance of doing something while the family are not looking!

[Noodley]

We need some perms so I have a chance of doing something while the family are not looking!

Exactly.

[Greenbank]

I can't see the need for both.

Neither can I.

The idea was that the mesh (or the DIY mesh thingy on the AUK website) would have lists of possible controls at each town, and Audax style routesheet instructions (or even GPS tracks) for each of the legs.

You don't get either of these when you plan your own routes with Autoroute or whatever.

[frere yacker]

Slight thread hijack, but only a minor transgression.

Do permanent organisers get access to the organiser section of the AUK website?  If yes, how does one get that access?

[frankly frankie]

Yes, if you are a Perm (but not Event) Organiser you should be able to use the Organisers' Gateway, and see your Perms listed, and do some minor edits on them (such as adding a descriptive note, a web link to your own site, a sketch map).  You don't have the sort of full access that Events Orgs have during their planning stage, because the Perm you're editing has already been published.

[frankly frankie]

I know you don't want DIYs as such but essentially it's a mesh.

<sorry for being dumb> So, is the DIY planner an add-on to the mesh or different?  I thought the mesh thingy was there to allow easy access to validated distances...maybe, and most likely, I am being stupid. 

It's for DIYs but allows easy access to validated distances. I understand your confusion. I can't see the need for both. Perhaps some folk can't be arsed or don't have the technology to work out distances for themselves. I understand DIYs are much newer than the meshes.

FWIW if it had to be one or the other I much prefer the Mesh concept to DIYs.  Both are relatively recent developments but the Mesh did come first - it was a great idea and really should have been developed more than it was right from the start, to give us decent country-wide coverage.  I think DIYs are just a bit too 'free-form' to sit comfortably in the AUK scheme of things - but I'm reliably informed by others that they are 'the future'.

In practice, no matter how well meshes are planned, organised and documented - there are always some people (lots, actually) who say "I want to do your mesh A-B-C-D but I'm visiting the in-laws that weekend so can I start from X, which is between B and C and about 10km off-line?" ... and so DIYs were born.  One aspect of the DIY Planner is that it is an attempt to mesh-ify the DIYs, by listing pre-validated distances between nodes.   Ideally it could include all existing known mesh legs and a goodly number of Calendared Event legs as well - but as it stands its very incomplete.  The handful of people who are authorized to add new legs and distances, or even to just send lists to me and let me add them, don't seem to see any value in it unfortunately.

[fin]

I have a list of Duncan's Hilly Highland Grimpeurs/Super Grimpeurs (supplied by fin IIRC) but they are proving difficult for me to Perm as they  would require a lot of info controls and some of them cover the same route in different directions.

The Hilly Highland Grimpeurs/Super Grimpuers should be credited to the late Andrew Manwell (and not the large Duncan P  )

[innesh]

I have done more than my fair share of Mesh perms - when Peter Coulson organised his Northern Climes Mesh.  I even rode my first 600 on the Mesh, but Northern Climes never went any further north than Edinburgh/Glasgow.

I now organise my Lanarkshire Perms (which get you out of Lanarkshire ASAP) 

My own routes have proved fairly popular (some of you on here will have endured them!) so I can offer this advice to anyone thinking of setting up their routes as permanents.

Whilst the Mesh and DIYs are popular with a certain type of rider, lots of people like a route sheet.

Most organisers allow you to start at any control point on the route.  e.g  My 'Down to Longtown' has a nominal start of Biggar (on the very edge of Lanarkshire) but I also get riders from Cumbria who start at Longtown and do an 'Up to Biggar'.  So, if say Mr Cyclops were to offer a route from the Honest Toun that came to perhaps Biggar, or Innerleithen, then we would both be happy!    Similarly, S. Queensferry must be about 100km from Aberfeldy, or, let me think - Forfar!   

If planning a route, try to avoid Info controls - they are a total PITA for organisers.

I've never organised a 100km or a 160,  but I'm sure some riders might want to try one.  Me, I'm more a points kind a guy!  200s seem the most popular by far.

The more perms we have up here the better.  It would also help spread the load a bit - it's all very well doing lots of DIYs, but it all falls on Lucy to process the entries and brevets for them.  We already have a few volunteers interested in offering new routes - anyone else?  I'm happy to help where I can.  I would also like to see a Scottish Mesh, but that's a bigger task.



   

[fin]

Are you collating town to town distances here ?

Dunfermline (town centre) to Crieff          50km
Crieff to Lochearnhead (via Strowan Rd to Comrie and St Fillans)          30.3 km
Lochearnhead to Callander                      22.7km
Callander to Dunblane                              21.2km
Dunblane to Bridge of Allan                         5 km
Bridge of Allan to Innerliethen (via Dunfermline)                 105.6km
Innerliethen to Peebles                             10.4km
Peebles to Innerliethen                             10.4km
Peebles to Dunfermline                              60.5km

Guess what I did last weekend   

I would think a list could be compiled very quickly from existing Perm and Calendar Event Route Sheets.
Who in AUK is ratifying these mesh legs; John Ward ?

[Greenbank]

Nominated town names are fine for smallish towns but you can often get receipts that say the right thing quite far out of larger towns.

I got a receipt saying Shaftsbury (yes, including the typo) about 3km outside Shaftesbury proper. If I'd used Shaftesbury as a turning point then I could have shaved 6km off my ride. Didn't affect me as I was passing straight through Shaftesbury and I DNFed the ride anyway.

So either the Mesh distances have to be slightly under distance (and you end up building an over-distance ride) or you have to start nominating specific controls which makes it just as complicated as a bog standard DIY.

It's much easier for me to nominate specific controls in advance and email the DIY organiser with an Autoroute .AXE file with each leg set to shortest distance (even though the DIY organisers use different settings which lead to longer routes).

(Although, once again, it all boils down to trust.)

[mattc]

  The handful of people who are authorized to add new legs and distances, or even to just send lists to me and let me add them, don't seem to see any value in it unfortunately.

Is this basically because the organisers have enough work to do on their own events? I reckon it's us (lazy) riders who have most to gain from this venture.

Could you remind us who "The handful of people who are authorized" are? It was a long time ago that this was last discussed. (Or perhaps the Chosen Few know exactly who they are, and I should just shut up!).

Aside:
The only leg near me ends at Grazeley. This is described thusly:
"There is nothing at Grazeley that could be described as
a control - no shops, no bank, no garage and the pub is
shut! "
Oh well, I can't say I wasn't warned!

[Noodley]

I have a list of Duncan's Hilly Highland Grimpeurs/Super Grimpeurs (supplied by fin IIRC) but they are proving difficult for me to Perm as they  would require a lot of info controls and some of them cover the same route in different directions.

The Hilly Highland Grimpeurs/Super Grimpuers should be credited to the late Andrew Manwell (and not the large Duncan P  )

So they are,  I only noticed when I was re-reading 

I shall go and edit....