Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Rides and Touring => Topic started by: mattc on 18 December, 2016, 04:10:38 pm
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I'm curious to see how people feel about the "shame" of being put in a "Slow" / "Less Fast" whatever group on social/club rides.
As I see it the main pros and cons are:
- it's perhaps insulting to be put in a "slow" group,
- if you're put in a mixed ability group, it can be demoralising to be always at the back on climbs etc (i.e. the narrower the ability range, the less far off the back you will be!)
I dont expect to reach any grand conclusions, or prove anything - it's just a bit of random popular opinion surveying. A toe in the water.
(Disclosure: I have been in both situations, and have also been the fastest, bestest, top dog alpha male in a group :P )
Thanks!
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Probably best to leave the ego at home! I would ask people to self select into whatever group they want to be in but tell them it's ok to change to a faster/slower group at the coffee/lunch stops.
I also feel if you're a group leader then it's up to you to keep the pace manageable for all the group.
But I am from the old school.
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Wot yoav said, with the additional comment that if you're going to advertise a ride at a given speed, the ride should be at that speed.
More than once I've ridden with a club who have advertised at, say, 15mph and then the ride back from the cafe has been pushing 18 into a headwind - leaving a novice rider fighting unsuccessfully to cling onto the back, and then getting dropped in some village with only half an idea of how to get home.
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Much appreciate the responses chaps :thumbsup:
But can anyone comment from the actual viewpoint in question? (I'm reluctant to keep discussing what is "best" for people in a "Does he take sugar?" kind of way! )
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Oh, I'm definitely one of the slow ones - and would much rather ride in a slower group and enjoy it than have a sufferfest chasing faster riders unnecessarily. Even if that means getting to the cake shop ten minutes later. No shame for me, and I wouldn't be insulted. In a new group I'd always err on the side of caution anyway, unless I knew I could keep up with the fast group.
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It's fairly normal for groups to advertise their average ride speed, and to keep to it.
If you're dropping off the back then you have a couple of choices:
1) Join the slower group
2) Ride on your own
Our group is too small to split so we have a "nobody gets left behind" policy and it's a very social pace.
It can get a bit strung out sometimes but we regroup at junctions/hills.
I know the Pompey Wednesday Night ride has a fast group and a slower group.
There's a case for several mixed ability groups if numbers grow too large of course. I'm a car driver as well as a cyclist and it can be painful when trying to pass a big Club ride.
I don't see any "Shame". I had to drop out of the local "Wheelers" Chain-gang rides as I just couldn't hang on to the back. Some people are faster than me and I don't want to hold them up if they have a speed to stick to.
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Oh, I'm definitely one of the slow ones - and would much rather ride in a slower group and enjoy it than have a sufferfest chasing faster riders unnecessarily. Even if that means getting to the cake shop ten minutes later.
Ah right. Thanks :thumbsup:
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Splitting on speed suits me fine. I may be in either half, depending on who the others are, what I'm riding and what the conditions are like. I wouldn't claim to be a fast cyclist by YACF standards, but I have more hill climbing stamina / ability to pace myself on climbs than the average Londoner, and don't generally need a rest when I get to the top of hills (but if I am the slowest rider, I would like the group to allow me a fair amount of faffing time to add/remove clothing or whatever when needed).
Splitting by, for example, choice of route, COR NSTN-rating or destination is also fine and often more meaningful for social rides.
Anything but alphabetical by surname. I got enough of that rubbish in PE lessons and the university print queue.
Mixed ability groups who can't ride at the pace of the slowest rider either need more practice / attitude adjustment, or a clearer explanation of the expected pace.
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The slow group is the biggest group in my club. In fact there are 4 speed groups and by and large the faster you go the smaller the group.
I quite like groups with sudden changes of pace, rather than a constant but mediocre pace. Obviously, if you do that you have to stop and wait at some point. In the groups I ride with most love the challenge (me included) but some get really stressy about it.
To answer the op, I dont give a shit what group Im in as long as it is the right paced group for me. The right paced group is the one that pushes me just outside of my comfort zone. Some people dont want that though. As ever there is a compromise to be made and people have to be clear about what they want.
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Having almost always been one of the slowest, I can attest to how demoralising it can be to ride with those who are too fast.
Never quite recovering from a hard climb before setting off again, never getting enough time to eat, getting bonked out because I was outpaced, etc.
I did Audaxes just because I could go at my own pace. And got much faster as a result!
But I was still slow and useless on hills.
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The right paced group is the one that pushes me just outside of my comfort zone.
So you see, we're all different. No two cyclists are the same. Some enjoy challenge some don't. There are both fast and slow cyclists who want to push themsthemselves. There are others that don't..
I'm slow and would want to ride in the slow group. I get no enjoyment from keeping up.
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Indeed. Pushing myself is something I prefer to do on my own. Or at least in the company of cyclists who won't leave me for dust when I inevitably have to slow down as a result. I don't mind attacking a hill or trying to beat a PB on a Strava segment or going all-out on the final dash to the pub or whatever from time to time, but struggling to keep up with a group is miserable.
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I have led fast groups and slow groups but never been assigned as follower in either. I'd definitely be in the slower group now, and probably have trouble keeping up, but I'd take it very ill if someone came out and said to me "John, you're slower than us, go in the other group". I don't think anyone would be so ill-mannered, either.
Riding with faster chums who charitably wait for you at the top of every climb then belt on before you've got your breath back is hell.
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Riding with faster chums who charitably wait for you at the top of every climb then belt on before you've got your breath back is hell.
The trick there is to slow down.
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Back when I was on beta-blockers showing down would have meant falling off. That was the period when a butterfly went through my front wheel without getting hurt.
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Split on speed/fitness.
Furthermore, send the whippets the long way around so the slow pokes get to the feed stop before them and get 1st dibs for a change.
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...but struggling to keep up with a group is miserable.
Too true!
I was not slow because I did not try.
I was not slow because I was not 'fit'.
I just was not strong or fast. I was cycling more often than many and was never very heavy.
I just could not go any faster.
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Riding with faster chums who charitably wait for you at the top of every climb then belt on before you've got your breath back is hell.
Boy, don't I know this!
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On the lunchtime socials I used to organise we rode within the limits of the slowest rider regardless of the group size and ability mix cos it's bloody miserable to be dropped off the back and the rides were social rather than training rides. For social rides suffering of any form isn't part of the deal.
For training rides I'd expect a split on ability and for riders to know roughly what they are capable of, to expect to have to work hard and to accept the risk of getting dropped. You won't be surprised to learn I don't do training rides. :)
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At Ely club, Saturday rides are social, but still split into groups, but pace is held and strugglers not left. Sunday's tend to be even paced to the cafe and then the faster rides can go off the front on the way home.
Either way any group I'm in needs to be happy to stop for 2-3 mins every hour for me to do a blood test.
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I've not done a lot of group riding but when I have, my approach has always been to opt for the slower group to start but, if I'm feeling stronger after several miles, tell the ride leader and ride ahead by myself to catch the faster group. That feels, to me, more positive than joining the faster group and having to stop and wait for the slower group to come along because I can't maintain the pace.
As it happens, I'm contemplating joining a regular Saturday morning run, organised by a local bike shop, as part of my prep for LEL. If I do, it will be interesting to see how they react to me turning up bare-headed on with my steel frame, mudguards, hub dynamo..... Somehow, I don't think they will allocate me to the fast group.
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at our club the rides are split by speed groups. all groups ride for the same time to the coffee stop so faster groups ride further on different routes. seems better than slower groups following the same route but taking lonher.
seems the best way to me, even on a social ride I like a decent pace.
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I'm not really a group rider but notlong ago I went on a ride over the N. York Moors where all others were on carbon fibre TdF lookalikes. My ancient, 2 chain ring mudguarded steelie with a saddle bag was looked at askance but they let me play anyway. I kept up very comfortably and when we reached the half-way cafe near Helmsley I noticed one or two of my comrades surreptitiously lifting my bike by the saddle, putting it down again and scratching their heads in a puzzled way. ;D
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Back when I started club riding there was one " club run" , and it was social and no- drop. This meant that I, as a 14/15 year old, was riding with 1st cats and a range of other riders. I gained a lot of advice, grew up a fair bit, and developed a life-long love of the sport.
What I observe is that clubs often have " ability" groups. I observe that these effectively split a club into factions, and can lead to some riders becoming elitist. The experience of older, but often very experienced, riders does not get passed on. The " faster" rides become races, and are often the only riding some riders do. I know- I hear riders defining their riding objectives as " being at the front of the Saturday ride"
Of course, the exponential growth of interest in cycling has been a factor, and sensible group sizes are important, but we are in danger of making clubs merely a means of supplying competitive rides for people, and the " softer" benefits of long- term immersion in a "club culture", of giving to the sport as well as taking.
Training rides are important of course, but it is still possible to try to meet up as a club, and to do some social riding without the need to continually focus on the garmin.
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To be honest Paul the type of ride you describe is exactly what I want, and 'club culture' is exactly what I dont want. Ive avoided clubs for years because of this, and Ive finally found a new club locally that isnt riven with the pecking orders, unspoken rules etc that you find in 'old school' clubs.
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It'll be interesting to see how many of these 'non-club' clubs are around a decade from now.
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Loads, I expect.
Its really refreshing to ride with a bunch of recent-ish cycling converts who are full of enthusiam and arent having it crushed out of them by some hairy-nosed arsehole who thinks it is his/her (but usually his) place to tell them how to ride, what gear they should or shouldnt use, and bore them to death with their opinions.
Unfortunately, somebody in our club invited a 'coach' to turn up and mentor us on a club ride recently. The guy was an arse who thought it was appropriate to ride up to people and shout at them. His 'advice' contributed to a crash a couple of weeks later. Nope. The sooner that breed dies out the better.
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We'll see. Of course 'non-club' clubs were not also created in the '80s, '90s, etc...
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Cycling wasnt 'normal' in the 80s/90s.
Nor were the cyclists.
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Nice dig at people with Asperger's, there.
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I have had to moderate my riding in recent years. I was one of the fast ones who wanted to go out a tear my legs off each week. Well a slow decent into heart trouble and the fitting of two stents later I have gone down and up (although not to the fast group). There is pressure in all riding groups and the best groups are these where there is a common purpose. Some of the best rides I have done have been at either end of the spectrum speed wise. I have never been cross with been left behind and if I am feeling myself hanging on I inevitably make it known that I will be dropped and not wait for me. When I go I ride slowly for a while so that the group does not feel like I am trying to re-join.
I subscribe to the expression "The best friends you meet are those on the road" what I take this to mean is they are the sort of people who you just end up riding with. On a long Audax, LEL, PBP .... I have often found myself riding with the same people for long periods. There is no effort in keeping up or feeling that you need to slow down.
With group riding at a club it is important that the group enjoys the day. There have been occasions where a rider who is either much too fast or too slow comes along. Both of these cause trouble and the group as a whole is less happy. I know I have been guilty of both in my time and try not to let this happen.
BB
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I would vastly prefer to be in the slow group because - even when I'm at my fastest - I am slow by club standards. If I am going to push myself I don't want an audience, and I find the pressure of knowing people are waiting for me almost intolerable.
I didn't really enjoy the club cycling I did despite it being a very welcoming club. At best I got a sort of grim satisfaction out of enduring it.
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When I first came to the UK I went out riding with Otley Club. I was only interested in social riding, so I rode with the social club. They had a few groups, and split them up by distance rather than speed. I went with the longer distance group. They just went at the speed of the slowest rider.
A long summer day, lots of tea stops, my introduction to "cyclist's cafes" that dished up tea cakes and mugs of tea on the grass by the Aire, double egg and chips. My first century and I didn't even realise it until we got back to Otley 10 hours later "How far did we ride" I ask, leader consults his cycle computer "oh, about 116miles". I was astounded, I'd never ridden further than 70 in a day.
They were lovely, I rode out with them pretty much every weekend I could for the next year, year round.
That's a proper club, doing proper club riding.
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When I first started riding with the club a few years ago, the Sunday ride would start en masse and then split up into smaller groups along the way. The good thing about that was you could choose which group to join according to how you felt on the day. I was generally in the second group, but that would sometimes split down into two smaller groups if there was a big turnout. There was no set pace, it just depended on the make-up of the groups and you chose the group that best suited your pace. It was treated as a proper group ride - you worked together, you helped each other, you didn't constantly change the pace. And there was one section of the regular route that we used for formal paceline practice. It was only in the last few miles before the cafe that it got at all 'competitive'.
It all seems to have gone to pot since then and some of the more experienced riders I used to like riding with don't come out on a Sunday any more. There's now a 'fast' group that treats the club ride like a race and sometimes the riding can get a bit erratic, if not downright dangerous. There are certain riders I always try to stay well clear of if I go out with that group. Not only will they not wait for you if you get dropped, sometimes it seems like they are really trying to drop you.
I generally ride with the 'steady' group, which is perhaps not quite quick enough for my liking but a lot more sociable.
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Nice dig at people with Asperger's, there.
OK, I'll bite. Care to elucidate on this a little? I'm assuming you're referring to Flatus's description of the near-mandatory club know-it-all who feels it necessary to offer "suggestions" where they're not requested or wanted, sucking all of the fun out of what is (for some people at least) a nice bike ride, not training for a race.
If so - sure, some of these can be indicators of someone being on the spectrum - but far more likely IME they're just a bit of a wanker.
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No, hes not. Ive edited the word 'aspergic' out of the sentence "hairy-nosed aspergic arseholes". It is this to which Peter is objecting.
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Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification - and apologies to Peter.
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What I observe is that clubs often have " ability" groups. I observe that these effectively split a club into factions, and can lead to some riders becoming elitist. The experience of older, but often very experienced, riders does not get passed on. The " faster" rides become races, and are often the only riding some riders do. I know- I hear riders defining their riding objectives as " being at the front of the Saturday ride"
This (combined with more obvious things like simply not being good enough, or not caring about being competitive, or having the right sort of kit, and so on) is certainly what's put me off having anything to do with 'proper' cycling clubs.
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No, hes not. Ive edited the word 'aspergic' out of the sentence "hairy-nosed aspergic arseholes". It is this to which Peter is objecting.
Thanks, Flatus. It can seem like a small thing and maybe I could just have let it go, as I'm pretty sure you don't really think like that. It's all a bit close to home for me and I have the same problem with people who describe themselves as "a little OCD", as if it was an mild distinguishing mark. I am not personally Aspergic, nor do I suffer from OCD, but they are both a big problem in my family.
Thanks again.
Peter
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I'm curious to see how people feel about the "shame" of being put in a "Slow" / "Less Fast" whatever group on social/club rides.
As I see it the main pros and cons are:
- it's perhaps insulting to be put in a "slow" group,
- if you're put in a mixed ability group, it can be demoralising to be always at the back on climbs etc (i.e. the narrower the ability range, the less far off the back you will be!)
I dont expect to reach any grand conclusions, or prove anything - it's just a bit of random popular opinion surveying. A toe in the water.
(Disclosure: I have been in both situations, and have also been the fastest, bestest, top dog alpha male in a group :P )
Thanks!
Split by expected speed. It's nothing to do with "shame" and everything to do with what can reasonably be expected of everybody. I've been on group rides where I've lost the will to live because the group was rolling at barely half the speed I'd hoped, and I've been on group rides where it was all I could do to stay with the group on the climbs, and then the climbs left me depleted to the point I struggled to keep up on the flats.
I'd rather be given the choice between working hard to stay with a group that's going to be a little faster than my comfort zone, or taking an easy ride with a group that's going to be slower than I'd choose. Either way I'd always ride with some means of navigation (my preferred option is a GPS) so that if I were to decide not to complete the ride with the group for any reason I can let the organiser know and find my own way back. The only time I ever did that was when a group ride described as a "challenge" averaged less than 8mph and after six hours (including a 90 minute break for lunch) I needed to get home much faster than the group's pace.
I think I'd be annoyed if someone merely looked at me and assumed I was slow (I am a heavier rider but unless a ride is going to be very hilly can usually maintain a moving average of 15-18mph). If a group was about to do mountain racing I'd be less bothered at the assumption that my fat ass larger frame doesn't go up mountains in a hurry.
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Loads, I expect.
Its really refreshing to ride with a bunch of recent-ish cycling converts who are full of enthusiam and arent having it crushed out of them by some hairy-nosed arsehole who thinks it is his/her (but usually his) place to tell them how to ride, what gear they should or shouldnt use, and bore them to death with their opinions.
Unfortunately, somebody in our club invited a 'coach' to turn up and mentor us on a club ride recently. The guy was an arse who thought it was appropriate to ride up to people and shout at them. His 'advice' contributed to a crash a couple of weeks later. Nope. The sooner that breed dies out the better.
I wouldn't support the shout at " coaching" , but how does such a group learn the safe etiquettes of group riding, without some experienced input - how to sit tight on a wheel, how to ride in a string, how to do proper through and off safely?
There is a grouping not that far from me not unlike that which you describe, that locally are credited with keeping an A and E going, so regular are their crashes.
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Not being fast I prefer a mixed group regardless of ability. I suspect the faster bods prefer otherwise.
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Loads, I expect.
Its really refreshing to ride with a bunch of recent-ish cycling converts who are full of enthusiam and arent having it crushed out of them by some hairy-nosed arsehole who thinks it is his/her (but usually his) place to tell them how to ride, what gear they should or shouldnt use, and bore them to death with their opinions.
Unfortunately, somebody in our club invited a 'coach' to turn up and mentor us on a club ride recently. The guy was an arse who thought it was appropriate to ride up to people and shout at them. His 'advice' contributed to a crash a couple of weeks later. Nope. The sooner that breed dies out the better.
I wouldn't support the shout at " coaching" , but how does such a group learn the safe etiquettes of group riding, without some experienced input - how to sit tight on a wheel, how to ride in a string, how to do proper through and off safely?
There is a grouping not that far from me not unlike that which you describe, that locally are credited with keeping an A and E going, so regular are their crashes.
Ive been riding with the group since June and up until mid -october, after the 'coaching', there had been no crashes. The 'coach' encouraged people to ride bar to bar in a tight formation. Totally innappropriate advice for a bunch of people who only ride together once a week, if that.
What I have noticed in the group I ride with most is that peolle learn from others without anything being said. There is no through and off nor chaingang. Its a bunch of people riding in loose pairs having a chat mostly.
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...some hairy-nosed arsehole who thinks it is his/her (but usually his) place to tell them how to ride, what gear they should or shouldnt use, and bore them to death with their opinions....
I went out with a group like this during the summer. The "leader" was trying to get a group of riders who had not ridden together before to ride two abreast and wheel to wheel, while sitting at the front on his own, often holding some of us back on the climbs. Every now and gain, he'd drop back and shout at some of the riders for letting gaps develop between the pairs, then ride furiously back to the front. In the end, a few of us told him that we preferred to climb at our own pace and that we'd wait at the top. Sometimes, it wasn't safe to stop at the exact summit so we'd ride on a bit further until there was somewhere that we could pull off the road - he took this very badly and berated us for not waiting where we had said we would.
At the cafe stop, I decided that I'd had enough and would head home by my own route. Unsurprisingly, I wasn't the only one and we had a very pleasant ride back to London.
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Surely, the term group/club/social ride is different things to different people and the rides require different protocols.
My 'club' rides fall into either a training ride for those seeking fitness or race training, tempo ride which is a brisk ride, and a social ride which is the gentlest ride and allow much social interaction. Might be classed as the A/B/C group rides. I might start with the training ride and inform them I'll be dropping off at some point (early!) and they will not wait because the protocol is the ride is training and preparation for racing. The faster the speed the more able a rider is expected. I've seen riders be told to ride with a slower group to 'learn the ropes' which is what used to happen as the younger riders started on the slowest rides. The whole point of the social ride is to be sociable and wait for everyone. Tempo rides would vary and often at some point after the cafe stop the rules changed to something more asking to the race training ride where if you were dropped then unlucky. Folk knew the rules and would choose accordingly. Choice by ability and fitness also made for safer riding.
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Interesting reading since my earlier reply. Let me tell you my experience. I originally started cycling with a club in the 70's as a teenager. The club rides were very much look after everyone, old and young, learn to ride as a group and arrive at the cafe together. Sometimes there were 2 groups but they all worked the same way. After my teens, I never rode regularly with a club as I moved around a lot. My previously learnt skills allowed me to join group rides as and when without issues. Until now.
I joined a new club that was set up here. It started as a Facebook group but gradually became more organised. However, its members include quite experienced and fit cyclists as well as complete beginners to road cycling. On the first club ride I went on, about 30 cyclists turned up. The 'leader' set off with everyone else in their wake. Within half a mile, the riders were all over the place. It was obvious that nobody, not even the leader had any concept of what group riding was about. As it was my first time, I kept quiet and rode along chatting to riders who had self organised into small groups of 3-4. The leader to stop several times to allow the rest to catch up. At the end, no seemed bothered (except maybe me) with this lack of organisation.
A few weeks later, I volunteered to lead a ride. Teach them a few things about group riding, or so I thought. About 20 riders turned up. I set off in front at a steady pace. Within half a mile, 4 obviously faster riders overtook me and we never saw them again. At the first downhill, many of the slower riders also overtook me but I overtook them on the following uphill. I stopped for a regroup and tried again. This time I was overtaken again but then they went the wrong way at a junction as they didn't know the route. The remaining riders with me continued to the pub and the rest eventually turned up. So much for my leadership.
So, am I leaving this club? No, I think I'll consider it as a great social experiment. Can a disparate group of cyclists self-organise without any meaningful leadership or structure? There is no committee, no rules and no membership fees. But we do have a jersey.
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AKA A bunch of people out having fun. ;)
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What I observe is that clubs often have " ability" groups. I observe that these effectively split a club into factions, and can lead to some riders becoming elitist. The experience of older, but often very experienced, riders does not get passed on. The " faster" rides become races, and are often the only riding some riders do. I know- I hear riders defining their riding objectives as " being at the front of the Saturday ride"
This (combined with more obvious things like simply not being good enough, or not caring about being competitive, or having the right sort of kit, and so on) is certainly what's put me off having anything to do with 'proper' cycling clubs.
My reason for stopping riding with the Ely club was not far removed from this.
An element evolved that looked down their nose at those who weren't out on ever Saturday AND Sunday ride, and who didn't time trial with dedication every week and into the winter. Unfortunately this included the Club Captain, who rather than putting a stop to it was one of the active instigators.
With my working patterns I'm never going to do that, and I don't want to time trial every week. Plus those that seemed to take delight in trying to drop me every time I stopped to test blood glucose (having explained why I needed to pre-ride) I rapidly came to the conclusion "fuck this for a game of soldiers". I now ride on my own, at my pace which may or may not be faster than a club run on any given day, stop where I want and chose my route on a whim.
This is partly why I started audaxing as well, as those folks tend to take a much more laid back approach to this stuff.
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Quite.
My introduction to old school clubs was in the 80's, time-trialling. There were some nice people but there were also some obnoxious egotistical arseholes. I was quite surprised at just how obnoxious they were. Put me right off.
In my club there is only one obnoxious arsehole and its me :thumbsup:
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This is partly why I started audaxing as well, as those folks tend to take a much more laid back approach to this stuff.
+1
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I am part of the "Whitchurch Social Cycling" group. We hope the name captures the spirit and intent of the group.
We aren't a club, we don't have a team jersey and there is no committee (other than the informal and spontaneous one that forms briefly to decide where to go on the ride).
You turn up in Whitchurch at 8pm on a Thursday and/or 8am on a Sunday. We ride to a pub/cafe for beer/coffee/cake and chat about stuff along the way.
There's a local formal (fast) road-club with committee & team jersey to ride with if that's your bag and an LBS Sunday ride that's slightly quicker than ours (but slower than the road-club.
I've ridden with all three, and it's nice to have the options, but my favourite is the slow, chatty WSC group.
I'm also lucky to have access to the fabulous Abbots Ann Cycle shop which, since it opened in town this year, has become a true cycling hub for the area (including a lovely Cafe and Wattbike studio inside). So much more than your usual pile of bikes
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So, am I leaving this club? No, I think I'll consider it as a great social experiment. Can a disparate group of cyclists self-organise without any meaningful leadership or structure? There is no committee, no rules and no membership fees. But we do have a jersey.
Sounds like my lot as well, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
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I'm in a club of one. I've been a member all my life. I like the member, mostly. The pace is always just right. Stops, changes of route or destination are always agreed without any awkwardness. My favourite riding, really.
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I'm in a club of one. I've been a member all my life. I like the member, mostly. The pace is always just right. Stops, changes of route or destination are always agreed without any awkwardness. My favourite riding, really.
But are you spurred on by keeping up with the faster members? And are there any trophies to strive for?
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I suppose Basil will be motivated by the Club's Points Award, Mile Eater Award and no doubt the many other trophies available.
Alternatively, the club might be non-competitive.
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Actually, the club can be surprisingly competitive on occasion. But trophies? Who would want an award for doing what you want to be doing?
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Right, I've gathered more than enough data, so I'm going to dive into the sideshow that is the "Are traditional clubs just crap?" thread. Almost everybody here has said they are, and I simply don't believe that represents the real world.
I think there is a place for the small, disorganised "group"/"club". I'm sure some work brilliantly. But they have their limits. The following are all MASSIVE generalisations, so please read them as such:
- They don't scale up. I'm sure there are academic studies from psychology (or god forbid, Management Science) that show what goes wrong when you just grow a group of anarchistic self-starting "jolly nice" individualists. (see also: cat herding)
- It's hard to organise anything beyond the "Every Thu/Sun 8am" schedule. Eventually you get into discussions about how many groups we need for the 40 riders turning up on nice days.
- ... and that's when you end up "casually meeting over a pint to chat it over". In other words; A Commitee Meeting ;D
- a big element of grassroots cycling is the events; be they audax, time-trial, road-race, other mashups on a theme. You can't just run these things by sending a few emails between 3 people.
- look at the Fridays. They offer something very different (which is good and interesting :) ) but there is a LOT of organisation gone into making their rides look so slick to the newbie rider.
- a larger organised club tends to be more inclusive. They'll have a structure that says we WILL look after new members, or slow members, or aging members. Or find an outlet for the frustrated fast. etc.
As for the whole "arsehole wanker coach" business ... surely this is an example of how extremes are rarely the best way? You can learn from a human being - people think they know everything cos they have read the internet, and/or they can copy everyone else and not crash.
I doubt anyone here knows everything about group riding (and that's just one small part of cycling).
But meanwhile, you can teach people stuff without being a cunt. Ironically, one of our posters here is paid to do just that, out of our taxes!
If a club is great apart from someone giving unwelcome advice, do something about it - don't run away then whine about it on the internet. Show some interpersonal skills!
(that may mean talking to other members. Having a quiet word. Taking a step back and accepting that the guy means well, and it's no great cost to just shut up and tolerate him, like everyone else does! Or some better solution .. I've never been in that situation. You're all smart cookies, come up with something.)
Every group has an arsehole - you just may not notice him/her as quickly if they are an ignorant introvert.
Right, that's probably pissed off 50 of my voters ...
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You're over thinking it. Just get on your bike for a ride ffs.
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You're over thinking it. Just get on your bike for a ride ffs.
Done that.
Then it got dark, so I came in to play with you lot.
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;D
And sorry for being a bit grumpy. I do understand what it is you are trying to understand.
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- look at the Fridays. They offer something very different (which is good and interesting :) ) but there is a LOT of organisation gone into making their rides look so slick to the newbie rider.
This is an interesting one, if you compare a Fridays ride to one of the many off-brand but ostensibly similar night rides organised on this august forum.
The main practical difference is of course scale. When you have 5-20 riders the logistics of halfway stops is much simpler than when you have the best part of 100.
But beyond that, I'd suggest that the main reason that the same sort of thing can be achieved with little more than someone posting a start time and a GPX track to an internet forum is that we all have a pretty reasonable idea of what to expect and how to contribute to make that happen, largely due to gratuitous plagiarism of lessons learned by The Fridays and while audaxing. And an inadvertent filtering of newbies that avoids the completely unprepared from ever hearing about them in the first place.
- a larger organised club tends to be more inclusive. They'll have a structure that says we WILL look after new members, or slow members, or aging members. Or find an outlet for the frustrated fast. etc.
I'm not sure about that, I suspect it's more a case of the long-established ones being those that have somehow got it right. (A large club isn't going to stay that way for very long if it can't attract newbies and keep the ageing members interested.)
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i've never ridden with a "traditional" club, but all the rides that i've done with the "modern" groups have been good experience. you'll come across an arsehole every now and then, but as long as the group is mature enough to ignore them they only make themselves look silly. as for the speeds - it's a good idea to know your average you can maintain over the distance, so that you join an appropriate group. (if anyone told me that i look like i should ride with the slow group*, they'd see two fingers and be actively ignored for the rest of the day 8) )
* i've ridden with groups of various abilities, but it was my choice and decision
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I learnt group riding skills from the old boys on the Portsmouth CTC fast group runs. There was very little tolerance for defaulters. At the time it seemed a bit formulaic, however subsequent experience shows it works. As a group you look after each other and acting predictably and sharing information helps keep everyone safe.
Currently I belong to Sotonia and ride with them occasionally, mostly I'm out on my own or with 1 or 2 others.
When I'm on a club ride I prefer to ride with people who have also learnt the basic skills to ride in a group together. When with people who through ignorance or carelessness endanger a group I will have a quiet word. If that doesn't work I stay as far away as possible as I have no desire to pay the tarmac a surprise visit.
On audaxes informal groups form. I make a judgement on whether to remain with such a group or not dependant on skill level, weather condition or wit!
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It's fairly normal for groups to advertise their average ride speed, and to keep to it.
If you're dropping off the back then you have a couple of choices:
1) Join the slower group
2) Ride on your own
Our group is too small to split so we have a "nobody gets left behind" policy and it's a very social pace.
It can get a bit strung out sometimes but we regroup at junctions/hills.
I know the Pompey Wednesday Night ride has a fast group and a slower group.
There's a case for several mixed ability groups if numbers grow too large of course. I'm a car driver as well as a cyclist and it can be painful when trying to pass a big Club ride.
I don't see any "Shame". I had to drop out of the local "Wheelers" Chain-gang rides as I just couldn't hang on to the back. Some people are faster than me and I don't want to hold them up if they have a speed to stick to.
A group I used to ride with every once in a while split into three groups based on approximate speed, and the three groups did totally different rides. If you couldn't keep up with the group you were in you couldn't just wait until the slower group caught up. They were pretty realistic about the distances and speeds of the rides - I rolled with the fastest of the groups thinking I'd rather be slightly pushed than underexercised, and didn't find myself either pushed beyond reasonable comfort or constantly feeling like the group was waiting for me. The first time I rolled with them I made sure my GPS was fully charged, so I wasn't left in the middle of nowhere if I did find myself unable to keep the pace.
I think it's good to keep groups reasonably small, or at least space out into smaller groups, simply to avoid becoming a huge rolling roadblock.
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This is an interesting discussion, and I think at least one element is the type or intent of the ride, rather than the speed or distance.
I've never done the "Sunday Morning Club Run" for training, so find it hard to comment exactly on it, but the comments from some people upthread, about their bad experiences, are at least one of the reasons why I've avoided that area.
The Fridays work well, as a Social club, and manage to get away with a relatively large inexperienced group by mostly riding at night when the roads are a lot quieter. I've done other YACF based social rides (the old WARTYs for example) which were in a similar vein, but tended to be smaller and had a lot of rides with times and places chosen to minimise traffic (which in itself required some effort by the ride leader).
Overall, I think I enjoy social rides. You can still do substantial distances, but don't have to ride like a speed demon. Occasionally it can seem like it would be nice to be going a bit faster, but when you do have to stop and let people catch up, there's generally someone to talk to, or a view to look at. :)
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One of the reasons I left my local cycling club, was that the saturday morning cafe runs ended up turning into Road Racing Performance Group Training Events, with all the focus on speed / watts / rpms / bpm / bites per scone / sips per cup. Anyone who was on the run dare not have a mechanical, or dare to be slow off the Performance Pace.
Hence I just cycle on my own, or with a few facebook peeps ( one or two of which may also be on here) on a facebook cycling group.