Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Audax => Topic started by: Ben T on 28 January, 2017, 02:12:35 pm
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I put myself down for the waiting list and got an email saying "On 5 February 2017, we will contact you to ask whether or not you would be willing to take a 100-hour time limit slot. These will be the only slots available to you."
Does this mean these will be the only available slots on 5th feb 2017, or the only available slots ever?, i.e. do I have the option of holding out for a 'normal' (116 hour) place in the hope that somebody pulls out and wants to sell on their place later?
The other thing I'm considering - since I'm not overly bothered about the 14 points (we're not playing for a row of houses :) ), simply enter anyway but not bust a gut to get under 100 hours - if I do this will I be not allowed food at later controls if I'm considered 'out of time' or otherwise disadvantaged? I'm presuming they'll still be open as I guess 100 hour riders start earlier in the morning e.g. 6-8am?
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I am fairly sure that this would be Danials answer .. but he is travelling back from US over the weekend
1 To take up a 100 hour offer .. you are going to have to prove that you are capable of it ie having done a 80 hour PBP for example. If we do not have that verification of your ability .. these few places could be taken by someone taking a place and then drifting back into the main pack of riders .. so not helping the controls at all .. just an extra body to handle when busy. So if 100hour or damn close is not what you can prove you can do .. I very much doubt that even if you asked , you would get a place
2 I think we have moved away from our original plan of "one out .. offer to next on waiting list " .. too much admin work .. and potentially having extra problems as next on waiting list says .. Sorry made alternative plans
3 I believe that we have already made an estimate of our view of the number that will drop out .. and already offered these places to the priority that DW had put on facebook .. ie missing tandem riders , missing partners, ladies etc etc
4 i think that there will be no further offer of the 116 hours .. we are already quite some way over 1500 .. relying on our estimate of non starters to bring the actual starters back to 1500.
BUT .. this is my input .. Danial is the boss and he may choose to do different.
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you are going to have to prove that you are capable of it ie having done a 80 hour PBP for example
:) I did a 69 hour PBP once, whether I could now I'm not sure :P
2 I think we have moved away from our original plan of "one out .. offer to next on waiting list " .. too much admin work .. and potentially having extra problems as next on waiting list says .. Sorry made alternative plans
Looking at it from the other perspective, if I was someone who has signed up but now (i.e. in a few months) can't make it and wants to take up the offer of 'we will try to sell your [116 hour] place', who would it be being sold to?
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I think that you would get your money back less the £50 admin charge .. so long as you cancel before we would have stopped doing the one out, one in .. date would have been end May i think .. so opt out up to then and we have already done the one out , one in bit for you. Beyond end May .. there would have been no right to a refund.
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As Roger states above, we've already decided to overbook and let the field whittle down through cancellations. With that approach we have about 120 places to offer at our discretion.
When considering who to pluck from the waiting list and offer a place to, the team have been quite clear that we want to use this opportunity to make the field as diverse as possible. With that in mind we've already offered about 60 places to people who met certain criteria.
Some of the rest I will use to fill slots that I suspect will be in less demand. As Ben points out, it would be very easy for someone to take an early slot and just ride, deciding that the opportunity to ride is more important than having the ride validated. So I'm likely to look for evidence of recent fast speeds and a willingness to achieve a faster time. Some might bridle at that and find it elitist, but I have to ensure a smooth event and part of that is having as smooth a flow of riders through controls as is possible. If that means prioritising places for faster riders, so be it.
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The other thing I'm considering - since I'm not overly bothered about the 14 points (we're not playing for a row of houses :) ), simply enter anyway but not bust a gut to get under 100 hours - if I do this will I be not allowed food at later controls if I'm considered 'out of time' or otherwise disadvantaged? I'm presuming they'll still be open as I guess 100 hour riders start earlier in the morning e.g. 6-8am?
The controls will be open for the riders who started at 16:30 ( 10 hours later ) so you could possibly loose quite a lot of time and still find open controls
If you have entered and are behind time but the control is still open then the people running it will generally be helpful and you will get food etc
If the control is shut for all then that's a different story
If the weather is good then even if you would find 100 hours a stretch you might just do it
I have done the sums and I could do it in 100 hours under good conditions. However, it's much easier to get more sleep and take 105 hours
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these 100 hour places are for a few people who will genuinely aim to finish under 100 hours .. outside that by even a smidgeon .. no validation. They are not meant to be a back door slip in route for someone who says well I am in now .. so let me trundle along while all the controls are open and I will be OK for TLC . Taking 110.. 115 hours will be an abuse of the intention of the offer and of the controls and volunteers who are already handling a 50% increase on 2013.
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Will a fast time from a 200k like the Ditching Devil or the Shark or a solo DIY400 be enough to ask for a 100hr slot?
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Pass .. you have to convince Danial .. no hurry . he will only be back in LEL mode mid next week .. and even then sorting out fast 100 hour guys might not be top of the pile
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Looking at the calibre of some of the riders who have approached us about the 100 hour groups. You had better be confident of your credentials. There's some rather good CVs in there. As Roger says, patience we have some priorities to sort out ahead of the 100 hour slots.
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I have done the sums and I could do it in 100 hours under good conditions. However, it's much easier to get more sleep and take 105 hours
Exactly that - it's not whether I could do it, I'm sure I could if I wanted, it's whether I could be bothered. Would just be more pleasant to have more sleep.
I'm up front about it, I'm not going to 'con' my way in on the pretext of doing a sub-100 hour ride, when I probably don't intend to unless I get behind fast groups all the way and keep waking up early. I was just wondering whether the attitude is, yeah that's fine as long as you don't expect your 14 points and a medal, or no we'd really rather you didn't.
The only thing that made me curious was the fact that the email suggesting that was the only option, ever, was at odds with the idea that anyone deciding to pull out could sell their place. The only way these things could both be true is if rescinded 116 hour places were all sold as 100 hour places, or if no-one actually is going to be able to sell their place because the number of places needs to reduce.
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No one pulling out can sell their place, it is non transferable. Should you apply for and we offer you a 100 hour slot, and you accept it (and pay) then you will no longer be on the waiting list. Should someone pull out, who has a 116:40 slot. We may or may not offer that to someone on the waiting list. Since you'd no longer be on the waiting list, you wouldn't be eligible for that slot.. So if you're keen for a 116:40 slot your best bet is to remain in the waiting list and not grab a 100 hour slot.
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Ah well .. there was me thinking that I had already explained .. we have gone over 1500 now .. because we have decided that one out one in was going to be too much admin..so any 116 hour riders pulling out, after they have paid until the end of May will get their money back less £50 until we are down to 1500 riders ..as we have already done the allocation of their place. I do accept that if we have assumed a 100 drop out ,. and actually 200 drop out .. then we will have 100 places to fill that we did not expect. so if you want to take a chance that we have underestimated the drop out from an already oversubscribed list .. then sit back and wait and see. Conversely think about it .. from a financial point of view are we very likely to have considered that scenario as a desirable one.. isnt it more likely that we are 150 over ie 10% .. and if only 120 drop out .. then we will get the controls to cope with an extra 30 people. There is the possibility .. if nobody drops out we are well oversubscribed .. BUT .. we will have enough money to make sure that the controls get as much professional help as they want .. after all 100 extra riders is £30,000
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I have done the sums and I could do it in 100 hours under good conditions. However, it's much easier to get more sleep and take 105 hours
Exactly that - it's not whether I could do it, I'm sure I could if I wanted, it's whether I could be bothered. Would just be more pleasant to have more sleep.
I'm up front about it, I'm not going to 'con' my way in on the pretext of doing a sub-100 hour ride, when I probably don't intend to unless I get behind fast groups all the way and keep waking up early. I was just wondering whether the attitude is, yeah that's fine as long as you don't expect your 14 points and a medal, or no we'd really rather you didn't.
[My bold]
Worth asking the question IMO. :thumbsup:
There may be riders thinking of "conning their way in", so any clarification from the organisers could be beneficial to everyone.
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Copied from early in this thread ..
1 To take up a 100 hour offer .. you are going to have to prove that you are capable of it ie having done a 80 hour PBP for example. If we do not have that verification of your ability .. these few places could be taken by someone taking a place and then drifting back into the main pack of riders .. so not helping the controls at all .. just an extra body to handle when busy. So if 100hour or damn close is not what you can prove you can do .. I very much doubt that even if you asked , you would get a place
Quite clear .. you have to convince Danial that you are both capable and intend to ride a sub 100 hour.
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No one pulling out can sell their place, it is non transferable.
That seems to contradict the website which says:
"we will run a waiting list of people who want to sell their place...If we are able to sell your place ...we will refund your entry fee minus a fee of £50"
Should you apply for and we offer you a 100 hour slot, and you accept it (and pay) then you will no longer be on the waiting list. Should someone pull out, who has a 116:40 slot. We may or may not offer that to someone on the waiting list. Since you'd no longer be on the waiting list, you wouldn't be eligible for that slot.. So if you're keen for a 116:40 slot your best bet is to remain in the waiting list and not grab a 100 hour slot.
That's exactly what I thought.... but the text of the email "...a 100-hour time limit slot. These will be the only slots available to you" seems to contradict that.
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Ah well .. there was me thinking that I had already explained .. we have gone over 1500 now .. because we have decided that one out one in was going to be too much admin..so any 116 hour riders pulling out, after they have paid until the end of May will get their money back less £50 until we are down to 1500 riders ..as we have already done the allocation of their place. I do accept that if we have assumed a 100 drop out ,. and actually 200 drop out .. then we will have 100 places to fill that we did not expect. so if you want to take a chance that we have underestimated the drop out from an already oversubscribed list .. then sit back and wait and see. Conversely think about it .. from a financial point of view are we very likely to have considered that scenario as a desirable one.. isnt it more likely that we are 150 over ie 10% .. and if only 120 drop out .. then we will get the controls to cope with an extra 30 people. There is the possibility .. if nobody drops out we are well oversubscribed .. BUT .. we will have enough money to make sure that the controls get as much professional help as they want .. after all 100 extra riders is £30,000
Ah, I see, they're already sold - and you therefore want people to drop out. Well, I guess being on the waiting list means that then, hoping you've underestimated the drop out.
My only basis for thinking you will is based on 2013 experience when I was offered a place on the waiting list in about march or april time, but who knows.
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Ah well .. there was me thinking that I had already explained .. we have gone over 1500 now .. because we have decided that one out one in was going to be too much admin..so any 116 hour riders pulling out, after they have paid until the end of May will get their money back less £50 until we are down to 1500 riders ..as we have already done the allocation of their place. I do accept that if we have assumed a 100 drop out ,. and actually 200 drop out .. then we will have 100 places to fill that we did not expect. so if you want to take a chance that we have underestimated the drop out from an already oversubscribed list .. then sit back and wait and see. Conversely think about it .. from a financial point of view are we very likely to have considered that scenario as a desirable one.. isnt it more likely that we are 150 over ie 10% .. and if only 120 drop out .. then we will get the controls to cope with an extra 30 people. There is the possibility .. if nobody drops out we are well oversubscribed .. BUT .. we will have enough money to make sure that the controls get as much professional help as they want .. after all 100 extra riders is £30,000
Don't quite agree with your business model here, taking money off people leading to an oversubscribed event on the assumption that people will drop out leading to the figure riding coming in under 1500. And then keeping £50 as a fee when potentially that place won't go to another rider is taking the piss imo.
I have to say I don't agree with the spirit in which this ride has been organised/financed, I won't cancel my place because it pains me for you to have £50 taken as a fee. I'll ride but that will be it for the future, LEL 2021 and beyond will be a no go for me.
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Don't quite agree with your business model here, taking money off people leading to an oversubscribed event on the assumption that people will drop out leading to the figure riding coming in under 1500. And then keeping £50 as a fee when potentially that place won't go to another rider is taking the piss imo.
I have to say I don't agree with the spirit in which this ride has been organised/financed, I won't cancel my place because it pains me for you to have £50 taken as a fee. I'll ride but that will be it for the future, LEL 2021 and beyond will be a no go for me.
And I don't agree with you constantly complaining at the people who are running; you clearly think LEL is crap and I cannot understand why you've even bothered to enter in the first place. Anyway, onto ignore we go.
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Don't quite agree with your business model here, taking money off people leading to an oversubscribed event on the assumption that people will drop out leading to the figure riding coming in under 1500. And then keeping £50 as a fee when potentially that place won't go to another rider is taking the piss imo.
The rules (and the £50 deduction if you changed your mind) were quite clear to those entering BEFORE they stumped up their money.
What the organisers could not predict BEFORE the event went on sale is the numbers wanting to enter.
With the massive demand, there has been a decision to oversell and give the maximum number of people their opportunity to participate, knowing that there would always be a %age drop-out.
Perhaps, having got your own entry, you'd rather there were more disappointed people out there?
As for the extra £ - no doubt any surplus will go to being the seed-money for 2021, it's not like it's going into the organiser's (or AUK's) pockets.
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Ah well .. there was me thinking that I had already explained .. we have gone over 1500 now .. because we have decided that one out one in was going to be too much admin..so any 116 hour riders pulling out, after they have paid until the end of May will get their money back less £50 until we are down to 1500 riders ..as we have already done the allocation of their place. I do accept that if we have assumed a 100 drop out ,. and actually 200 drop out .. then we will have 100 places to fill that we did not expect. so if you want to take a chance that we have underestimated the drop out from an already oversubscribed list .. then sit back and wait and see. Conversely think about it .. from a financial point of view are we very likely to have considered that scenario as a desirable one.. isnt it more likely that we are 150 over ie 10% .. and if only 120 drop out .. then we will get the controls to cope with an extra 30 people. There is the possibility .. if nobody drops out we are well oversubscribed .. BUT .. we will have enough money to make sure that the controls get as much professional help as they want .. after all 100 extra riders is £30,000
Don't quite agree with your business model here, taking money off people leading to an oversubscribed event on the assumption that people will drop out leading to the figure riding coming in under 1500. And then keeping £50 as a fee when potentially that place won't go to another rider is taking the piss imo.
I have to say I don't agree with the spirit in which this ride has been organised/financed, I won't cancel my place because it pains me for you to have £50 taken as a fee. I'll ride but that will be it for the future, LEL 2021 and beyond will be a no go for me.
For a start, surely as a rider you would want the numbers riding to be as high as possible.
I damn sure wouldn't even consider LEL if the predicted number of riders was say 50... so I don't know why you're complaining that it's oversubscribed as that'll mean more people's company, more friends to make, more groups to draft, generally bigger event, etc.
The only way you would have a valid beef with the model is if they could potentially turn you away even having booked, like a hotel might, but I'm fairly sure that won't happen.
So are you basically saying you now don't want to ride, but you're going to put yourself through 1,400km of pain anyway purely because you don't want "them" to have made a £50 admin fee out of you ? :-\
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Don't quite agree with your business model here, taking money off people leading to an oversubscribed event on the assumption that people will drop out leading to the figure riding coming in under 1500. And then keeping £50 as a fee when potentially that place won't go to another rider is taking the piss imo.
I have to say I don't agree with the spirit in which this ride has been organised/financed, I won't cancel my place because it pains me for you to have £50 taken as a fee. I'll ride but that will be it for the future, LEL 2021 and beyond will be a no go for me.
And I don't agree with you constantly complaining at the people who are running; you clearly think LEL is crap and I cannot understand why you've even bothered to enter in the first place. Anyway, onto ignore we go.
1) most audax rides are non refundable so they are already being generous
2) if they don't resell the first 100 drop outs it's because they have in effect already re-sold them.
3) if they have overestimated the drop out rate they will honour the place
I don't see a problem here. Better than them not overselling and then not being able to find buyers for late drop outs and losing all the money.
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Here's a solution,
LMT withdraws from LEL and gets his entry fee refunded, less £50.
A gofundme page is set up to rise the missing £50 for LMT.
People chip in, say, 50 pence and the missing £50 is raised.
That modest contribution to the gofundme page means no one needs to hear any more whinging from LMT about an event he clearly doesn't want to ride.
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Here's a solution,
LMT withdraws from LEL and gets his entry fee refunded, less £50.
A gofundme page is set up to rise the missing £50 for LMT.
People chip in, say, 50 pence and the missing £50 is raised.
That modest contribution to the gofundme page means no one needs to hear any more whinging from LMT about an event he clearly doesn't want to ride.
Thanks for the thought, I'm touched.
You are wrong of course about me not wanting to ride but hey ho!
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Don't quite agree with your business model here, taking money off people leading to an oversubscribed event on the assumption that people will drop out leading to the figure riding coming in under 1500. And then keeping £50 as a fee when potentially that place won't go to another rider is taking the piss imo.
The rules (and the £50 deduction if you changed your mind) were quite clear to those entering BEFORE they stumped up their money.
What the organisers could not predict BEFORE the event went on sale is the numbers wanting to enter.
With the massive demand, there has been a decision to oversell and give the maximum number of people their opportunity to participate, knowing that there would always be a %age drop-out.
Perhaps, having got your own entry, you'd rather there were more disappointed people out there?
As for the extra £ - no doubt any surplus will go to being the seed-money for 2021, it's not like it's going into the organiser's (or AUK's) pockets.
Surely with the demand that was seen four year ago, and the increase in 'adventure cycling' over the last couple of years with longer rides/races getting more exposure one could see that this event would end up over subscribed?
And TBH I have no empathy regarding those that did not get a place. IIRC the website went up a while ago, it was explicitly stated that if you were a member of AUK at a certain time then you would get a place. With a wee bit of planning and foresight it would not be difficult to get a place.
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Don't quite agree with your business model here, taking money off people leading to an oversubscribed event on the assumption that people will drop out leading to the figure riding coming in under 1500. And then keeping £50 as a fee when potentially that place won't go to another rider is taking the piss imo.
I have to say I don't agree with the spirit in which this ride has been organised/financed, I won't cancel my place because it pains me for you to have £50 taken as a fee. I'll ride but that will be it for the future, LEL 2021 and beyond will be a no go for me.
Didn't you know, the £50's are all being collected up for the controller's piss up afterwards
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Ah well .. there was me thinking that I had already explained .. we have gone over 1500 now .. because we have decided that one out one in was going to be too much admin..so any 116 hour riders pulling out, after they have paid until the end of May will get their money back less £50 until we are down to 1500 riders ..as we have already done the allocation of their place. I do accept that if we have assumed a 100 drop out ,. and actually 200 drop out .. then we will have 100 places to fill that we did not expect. so if you want to take a chance that we have underestimated the drop out from an already oversubscribed list .. then sit back and wait and see. Conversely think about it .. from a financial point of view are we very likely to have considered that scenario as a desirable one.. isnt it more likely that we are 150 over ie 10% .. and if only 120 drop out .. then we will get the controls to cope with an extra 30 people. There is the possibility .. if nobody drops out we are well oversubscribed .. BUT .. we will have enough money to make sure that the controls get as much professional help as they want .. after all 100 extra riders is £30,000
Don't quite agree with your business model here, taking money off people leading to an oversubscribed event on the assumption that people will drop out leading to the figure riding coming in under 1500. And then keeping £50 as a fee when potentially that place won't go to another rider is taking the piss imo.
I have to say I don't agree with the spirit in which this ride has been organised/financed, I won't cancel my place because it pains me for you to have £50 taken as a fee. I'll ride but that will be it for the future, LEL 2021 and beyond will be a no go for me.
For a start, surely as a rider you would want the numbers riding to be as high as possible.
I damn sure wouldn't even consider LEL if the predicted number of riders was say 50... so I don't know why you're complaining that it's oversubscribed as that'll mean more people's company, more friends to make, more groups to draft, generally bigger event, etc.
The only way you would have a valid beef with the model is if they could potentially turn you away even having booked, like a hotel might, but I'm fairly sure that won't happen.
So are you basically saying you now don't want to ride, but you're going to put yourself through 1,400km of pain anyway purely because you don't want "them" to have made a £50 admin fee out of you ? :-\
Out of principle I want to ride, but won't be doing any further LEL's. I'm not to bothered about numbers, drafting etc, this does not appeal to me.
The beef I have is that you are selling a place for a ride already full. Fidgetbuzz alluded to this in one of his posts regarding the admin work for doing one in, one out being counter productive. So instead you sell more spaces that you have on the assumption that some will drop out, those that do drop out you keep £50 of their refund. If the ride remains oversubscribed this place won't go to anyone else. So effectively you have made £50 off the back of doing nothing, other than a couple of e-mails and pushing a few buttons to do a bank transfer of a refund back to the principle.
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Don't quite agree with your business model here, taking money off people leading to an oversubscribed event on the assumption that people will drop out leading to the figure riding coming in under 1500. And then keeping £50 as a fee when potentially that place won't go to another rider is taking the piss imo.
I have to say I don't agree with the spirit in which this ride has been organised/financed, I won't cancel my place because it pains me for you to have £50 taken as a fee. I'll ride but that will be it for the future, LEL 2021 and beyond will be a no go for me.
Didn't you know, the £50's are all being collected up for the controller's piss up afterwards
Hopefully he will read this and realise how selfish he is being by insisting on riding.
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LEL 2021 and beyond will be a no go for me.
off the back of doing nothing
Does the first bit mean peace will be restored in the land in about an hour?
You are funny, myself, Danial, and Roger plus all the controllers and volunteers have all fallen about laughing as we do exactly nothing to make LEL happen.
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LEL 2021 and beyond will be a no go for me.
off the back of doing nothing
Does the first bit mean peace will be restored in the land in about an hour?
You are funny, myself, Danial, and Roger plus all the controllers and volunteers have all fallen about laughing as we do exactly nothing to make LEL happen.
Not exactly what I said was it brao? Nice cherry pick.
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His intent was fairly obvious though, PW. £50 each for the trouble of shuffling folk off the waiting list and onto the start list.
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His intent was fairly obvious though, PW. £50 each for the trouble of shuffling folk off the waiting list and onto the start list.
Which is what he agreed to when he entered
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A non-refundable deposit is a good way of stopping piss-takers entering and then dropping out thobut.
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Yes PW and his point is that the shuffling isn't actually occurring now. It is a case now of overfilling and letting natural attrition occur, which involves a little less work and a bit more organiser discretion than 'the next one on the waiting list'.
Just for clarity, I don't particularly care how things are actually being done but it is slightly different than originally stated. With this much demand for this event, there were always going to be 'deserving folk' that miss out. The compromise chosen seems reasonable to me.
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I really do find some posts come from a complete lack of appreciation of the practicalities of organising a 1500 rider event. This is driven by just 3 people at the centre , and my role happens to be busy now .. but really is relatively minor, and the lack of understanding is just gob smacking. LMT seems to think that by allowing for a drop out of the paid up ( and we do have 2013 experience here ) we are quietly making £50 a time, by some underhand method. NO ONE is compelled to drop out .. if there are no drop outs then everybody who has paid will ride .. is there a problem here?? . However if you do drop out before end May .. you get nearly all your entry fee back -- that seems fair to me ..drop out after May ..no refund . Position has always been clearly stated .. what is the beef ? We have had to put in place the control locations etc etc and as an example of costs .. ( barriers .. ever thought about them ... current quote is £9000 ) .. assuming that the income will be approximately £500,000 .. but we have little scope to cut costs back. If entries had been 1400 .. find savings of £30,000 .. not at all easy. As for the comment that it was quite obvious that 1500 would want to ride ... a 50% increase on 2013 ..... did PBP get a 50% increase in 2015 on 2011. well did it ? All the planning and the financial costs, booking controls etc have to be done long before entries opened for AUk etc on 6th Jan. I was not rock solid confident that we were going to be OK.. and avoiding significant amounts of work as individuals pull out one by one from now until May seems to me to be a very sensible decision. We are already getting some of the 6th Jan entries changing their minds .. but as they have not paid there is no £50 cost here.
If you really do not like the way that the event is run and do not understand the immense amount of work undertaken by Danial an Phil.. then opt out now , rather than suffer another 6 months of misery as you wait to ride.
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His intent was fairly obvious though, PW. £50 each for the trouble of shuffling folk off the waiting list and onto the start list.
It is nothing like as simple as that LWB .. think it through .. A pulls out .. go to number 1 .. do you want the place or not .. no immediate reply .. chase .. pay by .. doesnt .. PAY NOW or it goes to number 2 .. .. changed my mind family pressures etc etc and there could be something like 20 of these going on at any one time . Nightmare lasting several weeks to achieve virtually nothing .. I would not do it if I was being paid the £50 for each cancellation.
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As I said, the selected method seems reasonable to me but the pedants are correct when they say "It is different to what you said". In reality, that difference is irrelevant to those who've already entered.
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My recollection was that the original waiting list info said you would have to pay in full at the point of going on the list (obviously with the promise of a full refund if your place on the ride was not confirmed). That made sense to me both in terms of ensuring that people were committed to the ride, and in reducing admin faff.
I think I prefer this way though: at least everyone who has paid has certainty that they will be able to ride.
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true .. indeed LWB .. and it may be that people do not like the order that WE have chosen for the overbooked places .. missing tandem riders, women etc ,, but the reserve list was always going to be a headache to administer .. where am I on the list .. but that is not fair .. the international time difference meant that I could not apply for a place on the list straight away etc etc etc etc . So considerable admin work saved .. extra offers in accordance with our priorities .. I don think there is anything untoward here.
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in response to LMT's comment that those who missed out should have planned better
I hink I've been a member since November 2015, not early enough. Had I been offered the choice when joining I would happily have paid for the whole of 2015 to qualify for a place. It was not an option.
As I only became aware of audax in summer 2p15, joining earlier was not an option, and I have no idea when the LEL site went live.
This is no criticism of the organisers, or complaint. They are free to set what rules they wish and nothing they have done is unreasonable.
As it turns out I decided not to enter, but up until December it was a real possibility that I would try.
Much less reasonable are those who don't seem very keen to ride but have taken up a space.
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I really do find some posts come from a complete lack of appreciation of the practicalities of organising a 1500 rider event. This is driven by just 3 people at the centre , and my role happens to be busy now .. but really is relatively minor, and the lack of understanding is just gob smacking. LMT seems to think that by allowing for a drop out of the paid up ( and we do have 2013 experience here ) we are quietly making £50 a time, by some underhand method. NO ONE is compelled to drop out .. if there are no drop outs then everybody who has paid will ride .. is there a problem here?? . However if you do drop out before end May .. you get nearly all your entry fee back -- that seems fair to me ..drop out after May ..no refund . Position has always been clearly stated .. what is the beef ? We have had to put in place the control locations etc etc and as an example of costs .. barriers ( ever thought about them ... current quote is £9000 ) .. assuming that the income will be approximately £500,000 .. but we have little scope to cut costs back. If entries had been 1400 .. find savings of £30,000 .. not at all easy. As for the comment that it was quite obvious that 1500 would want to ride ... a 50% increase on 2013 ..... did PBP get a 50% increase in 2015 on 2011. well did it ? All the planning and the financial costs, booking controls etc have to be done long before entries opened for AUk etc on 6th Jan. I was not rock solid confident that we were going to be OK.. and avoiding significant amounts of work as individuals pull out one by one from now until May seems to me to be a very sensible decision. We are already getting some of the 6th Jan entries changing their minds .. but as they have not paid there is no £50 cost here.
If you really do not like the way that the event is run and do not understand the immense amount of work undertaken by Danial an Phil.. then opt out now , rather than suffer another 6 months of misery as you wait to ride.
Well said.
and of course if LMT had really thought about it he'd realise that its riders who actually benefit from the fact the event spends the money from those £50 refunds so your entry fee goes further <if you ride>. Eminently sensible as are the LEL arrangements for refunds.
Anybody who has organised an audax will know there is normally a circa 10% DNS and another 10% DNF. Ive used the former to stick a fiver in each riders brevet card. Hope LMT doesnt enter any of my events.
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Seems like you need a better entry system, which could automatically handle withdrawals, refunds, offering it to the next person on the waiting list etc. Without creating any extra work for the organisers.
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Several smaller LRM brevets have operated waiting lists, some listed publicly. There has almost always been some degree of organiser discretion, regardless of whether the waiting list was published, and I think that is a good thing.
I look forward to riding with LMT; he sounds like an interesting person to chat with. Some of my best riding friends can be a bit pedantic sometimes.
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Don't quite agree with your business model here, taking money off people leading to an oversubscribed event on the assumption that people will drop out leading to the figure riding coming in under 1500. And then keeping £50 as a fee when potentially that place won't go to another rider is taking the piss imo.
The rules (and the £50 deduction if you changed your mind) were quite clear to those entering BEFORE they stumped up their money.
What the organisers could not predict BEFORE the event went on sale is the numbers wanting to enter.
With the massive demand, there has been a decision to oversell and give the maximum number of people their opportunity to participate, knowing that there would always be a %age drop-out.
Perhaps, having got your own entry, you'd rather there were more disappointed people out there?
As for the extra £ - no doubt any surplus will go to being the seed-money for 2021, it's not like it's going into the organiser's (or AUK's) pockets.
Surely with the demand that was seen four year ago, and the increase in 'adventure cycling' over the last couple of years with longer rides/races getting more exposure one could see that this event would end up over subscribed?
And TBH I have no empathy regarding those that did not get a place. IIRC the website went up a while ago, it was explicitly stated that if you were a member of AUK at a certain time then you would get a place. With a wee bit of planning and foresight it would not be difficult to get a place.
Can we not ban this troll?
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My recollection was that the original waiting list info said you would have to pay in full at the point of going on the list (obviously with the promise of a full refund if your place on the ride was not confirmed).
You are correct .. but carefully considered it did not seem to me that this would get enough people on to the reserve list to match the number of withdrawals that we projected . So I persuaded DW to drop that requirement .. maybe I was wrong .. but I was not certain that we would sell out .. so to exceed 1500 and get another xxx people putting up £319 hoping that people would drop out .. just seemed unfeasible to me . So now we have taken extra numbers knowing that there will be drop outs . Currently there are some of the £100 deposit payers who have not followed though .. despite 2 reminders .. some AUk entries are changing their minds before even paying .. this is a complex situation to judge what will happen .. we are only trying to do our best, bringing our 2013 experience to bear
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Seems like you need a better entry system, which could automatically handle withdrawals, refunds, offering it to the next person on the waiting list etc. Without creating any extra work for the organisers.
I think you could well be right here .. that will be for the 2021 team to explore
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I really do find some posts come from a complete lack of appreciation of the practicalities of organising a 1500 rider event. This is driven by just 3 people at the centre , and my role happens to be busy now .. but really is relatively minor, and the lack of understanding is just gob smacking. LMT seems to think that by allowing for a drop out of the paid up ( and we do have 2013 experience here ) we are quietly making £50 a time, by some underhand method. NO ONE is compelled to drop out .. if there are no drop outs then everybody who has paid will ride .. is there a problem here?? . However if you do drop out before end May .. you get nearly all your entry fee back -- that seems fair to me ..drop out after May ..no refund . Position has always been clearly stated .. what is the beef ? We have had to put in place the control locations etc etc and as an example of costs .. barriers ( ever thought about them ... current quote is £9000 ) .. assuming that the income will be approximately £500,000 .. but we have little scope to cut costs back. If entries had been 1400 .. find savings of £30,000 .. not at all easy. As for the comment that it was quite obvious that 1500 would want to ride ... a 50% increase on 2013 ..... did PBP get a 50% increase in 2015 on 2011. well did it ? All the planning and the financial costs, booking controls etc have to be done long before entries opened for AUk etc on 6th Jan. I was not rock solid confident that we were going to be OK.. and avoiding significant amounts of work as individuals pull out one by one from now until May seems to me to be a very sensible decision. We are already getting some of the 6th Jan entries changing their minds .. but as they have not paid there is no £50 cost here.
If you really do not like the way that the event is run and do not understand the immense amount of work undertaken by Danial an Phil.. then opt out now , rather than suffer another 6 months of misery as you wait to ride.
Well said.
and of course if LMT had really thought about it he'd realise that its riders who actually benefit from the fact the event spends the money from those £50 refunds so your entry fee goes further <if you ride>. Eminently sensible as are the LEL arrangements for refunds.
Anybody who has organised an audax will know there is normally a circa 10% DNS and another 10% DNF. Ive used the former to stick a fiver in each riders brevet card. Hope LMT doesnt enter any of my events.
The £50 fee technically is deferred income, although a provision would also need to be made for the refunds that are issued (this could be based on what has been done in the past), and then the delay in transferring the place (if undersubscribed) and receiving payment from the next rider. All this should have been accounted and budgeted for at the planning stage. So really the £50 does not go any further per se. Although some outside portaloos at the controls would not amiss so I don't have to stand at a urinal in my socks.
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Some posts are sane and some are not.
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deferred income eh? Maybe 25% should be avaiable tax free
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I look forward to riding with LMT; he sounds like an interesting person to chat with. Some of my best riding friends can be a bit pedantic sometimes.
Do you have the necessary w/kg to keep up ?
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I'm looking for some long downhills. I should be ok there.
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I really do find some posts come from a complete lack of appreciation of the practicalities of organising a 1500 rider event. This is driven by just 3 people at the centre , and my role happens to be busy now .. but really is relatively minor, and the lack of understanding is just gob smacking. LMT seems to think that by allowing for a drop out of the paid up ( and we do have 2013 experience here ) we are quietly making £50 a time, by some underhand method. NO ONE is compelled to drop out .. if there are no drop outs then everybody who has paid will ride .. is there a problem here?? . However if you do drop out before end May .. you get nearly all your entry fee back -- that seems fair to me ..drop out after May ..no refund . Position has always been clearly stated .. what is the beef ? We have had to put in place the control locations etc etc and as an example of costs .. barriers ( ever thought about them ... current quote is £9000 ) .. assuming that the income will be approximately £500,000 .. but we have little scope to cut costs back. If entries had been 1400 .. find savings of £30,000 .. not at all easy. As for the comment that it was quite obvious that 1500 would want to ride ... a 50% increase on 2013 ..... did PBP get a 50% increase in 2015 on 2011. well did it ? All the planning and the financial costs, booking controls etc have to be done long before entries opened for AUk etc on 6th Jan. I was not rock solid confident that we were going to be OK.. and avoiding significant amounts of work as individuals pull out one by one from now until May seems to me to be a very sensible decision. We are already getting some of the 6th Jan entries changing their minds .. but as they have not paid there is no £50 cost here.
If you really do not like the way that the event is run and do not understand the immense amount of work undertaken by Danial an Phil.. then opt out now , rather than suffer another 6 months of misery as you wait to ride.
Well said.
and of course if LMT had really thought about it he'd realise that its riders who actually benefit from the fact the event spends the money from those £50 refunds so your entry fee goes further <if you ride>. Eminently sensible as are the LEL arrangements for refunds.
Anybody who has organised an audax will know there is normally a circa 10% DNS and another 10% DNF. Ive used the former to stick a fiver in each riders brevet card. Hope LMT doesnt enter any of my events.
The £50 fee technically is deferred income, although a provision would also need to be made for the refunds that are issued (this could be based on what has been done in the past), and then the delay in transferring the place (if undersubscribed) and receiving payment from the next rider. All this should have been accounted and budgeted for at the planning stage. So really the £50 does not go any further per se. Although some outside portaloos at the controls would not amiss so I don't have to stand at a urinal in my socks.
Please remain excellent to all.
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For those of us who have our entry already - is there any restriction on choosing a 100 hour limit?
I think I should be fast enough. My fastest PBP was last time out, I did 76h44 in the 80h start, and I think I'm fitter today than I was at the start line of that PBP.
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I think that when the rider area is open . you will nominate your start time choice .. so opt for a 100 hour slot and I would be very surprised if you did not get it. We want fast riders away early .. so that the load on the controls is spread out over a longer period.
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Yep rider area you'll be able to do that. The only restriction is you won't be able to select the 5:00am 100 hour group. The first group. That group is invite only and details of how to get into that will be communicated in due course.
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The beef I have is that you are selling a place for a ride already full.
In many industries and organizations where predicting precise demand and managing supply is difficult, over-booking and penalising cancellation is necessarily standard practice. You might as well have a beef with the entire air-travel, theater and sports venue industries while you're at it.
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I'm not to bothered about numbers, drafting etc, this does not appeal to me.
Well then why don't you just go and ride it now? (Or as soon as the weather's to your liking.) It's a free country, with public roads.
Surely one of the points of entering the official event is that it's a shared experience with everyone else.
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Don't quite agree with your business model here, taking money off people leading to an oversubscribed event on the assumption that people will drop out leading to the figure riding coming in under 1500. And then keeping £50 as a fee when potentially that place won't go to another rider is taking the piss imo.
I have to say I don't agree with the spirit in which this ride has been organised/financed, I won't cancel my place because it pains me for you to have £50 taken as a fee. I'll ride but that will be it for the future, LEL 2021 and beyond will be a no go for me.
Didn't you know, the £50's are all being collected up for the controller's piss up afterwards
After 100 hours in a kitchen I could get completely trollied on £5. Having ridden in 2009 and ran the catering from Barnard Castle in 2013 I can genuinely say that I was equally knackered riding and helping. Phil D advised that I should book the night after the event in a local B&B and that turned out to be very sage advice. Any more than 30 minutes driving and I would have been in a ditch.
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The beef I have is that you are selling a place for a ride already full.
In many industries and organizations where predicting precise demand and managing supply is difficult, over-booking and penalising cancellation is necessarily standard practice. You might as well have a beef with the entire air-travel, theater and sports venue industries while you're at it.
If you want to quote me, then at least quote the entire quote, not just your cherry picking.
Many thanks.
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I'm not to bothered about numbers, drafting etc, this does not appeal to me.
Well then why don't you just go and ride it now? (Or as soon as the weather's to your liking.) It's a free country, with public roads.
Surely one of the points of entering the official event is that it's a shared experience with everyone else.
Because what does appeal is the organisation regarding food and a cot.
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Just to clarify, I have a budget of literally thousands to spend on volunteer booze.
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But will riders have to buy their own booze?!
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The beef I have is that you are selling a place for a ride already full.
In many industries and organizations where predicting precise demand and managing supply is difficult, over-booking and penalising cancellation is necessarily standard practice. You might as well have a beef with the entire air-travel, theater and sports venue industries while you're at it.
If you want to quote me, then at least quote the entire quote, not just your cherry picking.
Many thanks.
OK.
The beef I have is that you are selling a place for a ride already full. Fidgetbuzz alluded to this in one of his posts regarding the admin work for doing one in, one out being counter productive. So instead you sell more spaces that you have on the assumption that some will drop out, those that do drop out you keep £50 of their refund. If the ride remains oversubscribed this place won't go to anyone else. So effectively you have made £50 off the back of doing nothing, other than a couple of e-mails and pushing a few buttons to do a bank transfer of a refund back to the principle.
In many industries and organizations where predicting precise demand and managing supply is difficult, over-booking and penalising cancellation is necessarily standard practice. You might as well have a beef with the entire air-travel, theater and sports venue industries while you're at it.
You're welcome. Don't see how that makes anything I've said less relevant, but happy to oblige.
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Just to clarify, I have a budget of literally thousands to spend on volunteer booze.
where have you hidden that in the budget .. or is it your own personal contribution on top of all the work you are doing ??
before anyone takes this too seriously .. I am just pulling Danial's leg !!
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He's already drunk it, to judge from some of the tweets this week ;D
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This is what I like about the audax scene, the camaraderie, the esprit de corps, the fact folks give so much of their own time to support others (and I think I did that last LEL) and probably at a cost to them, the humour and wit, along with the bonds formed by the shared challenges and fulfilment, be it by riding or volunteering. This thread shows some of this this.
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Let's hope I'm not alone is hoping the organising team are not disheartened by Lee's waspish comments. Had be ever organised an event himself, which he hasn't, he'd know how much time and effort goes into something as big and complicated as LEL and would think twice about slagging them off.
By the way, if you don't want to see any of LMT's posts then do the following
1) go to "profile" then "account settings" then "modify profile" "buddies/ignore list"
2) edit ignore list and add "LMT"
Just sayin'.
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I do wonder where LEL stands in the hierarchy of amateur events. My mother used to direct amateur Musical Comedy shows in the 1980s, and they'd fill an 800 seat theatre for a week. That would be a present day budget of £70,000 say. If LEL is about £500,000, then PBP must be around £2,000,000.
PBP gets sponsorship from the host towns and other agencies, whereas LEL sustains itself. Watching amateur theatre is a two way street, the audience is in on the act, and judges it on its own special terms, likewise Audax. The randonneurs coming from around the world know this, they stage and ride events on the same terms, some of them very large.
LEL becomes more professional every time it's run, so it's a compliment that some treat it as they would a professionally staged event. But for many of the riders it's interactive, with friends and family involved. This time that was acknowledged by preferential entry for former volunteers, and Audax UK members. Maybe there'll be further tweaking for the next edition.
The biggest amateur run cycling event is probably Semaine Federale, and that employs administrative staff overseen by an amateur committee. One look at the 58 page presentation for the run-up to Dijon in 2016 shows why.
http://www.cyclotourismecodep21.fr/semainefederale2/sf2016-pr-sentation-matinee-25janvier2014.pdf
Interesting reading, and bit intimidating in its scope.
* Accueillir au mieux les 13.000 participants cyclotouristes attendus,
* 4 objectifs :
* touristique et culturel
* faire découvrir tous les monuments du département et son patrimoine culturel (musées, gastronomie, traditions locales, ...).
* sportif
* se faire connaître en tant que cyclotouristes et avoir des retombées en
termes d’adhésion dans les clubs locaux.
* social
* en apportant de l’animation dans les communes d’accueil, tant sur les circuits que dans la ville départ et arrivée, animation destinée à la fois aux cyclotouristes et à la population locale.
* Celle-ci doit profiter de l’événement avec une vision positive et festive atténuant les désagréments qu’apporteront les vélos sur le plan circulation.
* La semaine fédérale doit être une fête pour tous !
* éducatif
* Faire participer un maximum d’enfants, dans les écoles et collèges, par des concours artistiques ou en participant au Brevet d’Education Routière
* Former un maximum de bénévoles aux stages proposés par la FFCT
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Let's hope I'm not alone is hoping the organising team are not disheartened by Lee's waspish comments. Had be ever organised an event himself, which he hasn't, he'd know how much time and effort goes into something as big and complicated as LEL and would think twice about slagging them off.
By the way, if you don't want to see any of LMT's posts then do the following
1) go to "profile" then "account settings" then "modify profile" "buddies/ignore list"
2) edit ignore list and add "LMT"
Just sayin'.
There is a problem with this approach .. I have done it BUT when there is a thread like this and I am told that LMT has posted .. I can not resist looking to see what odd comment has now been posted .. so I might just as well not have had him blanked. By the way LMT your portaloo comment .. you did not ride LEL in 2013 .. so why you should bring any PBP experience up for more derogatory comments on LEL I can not imagine. As for the "deferred income etc " .. , I can only refer you to the well known saying about GrandMothers and eggs
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Let's hope I'm not alone is hoping the organising team are not disheartened by Lee's waspish comments. Had be ever organised an event himself, which he hasn't, he'd know how much time and effort goes into something as big and complicated as LEL and would think twice about slagging them off.
By the way, if you don't want to see any of LMT's posts then do the following
1) go to "profile" then "account settings" then "modify profile" "buddies/ignore list"
2) edit ignore list and add "LMT"
Just sayin'.
There's a few fallacies in the above.
Just sayin'
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Let's hope I'm not alone is hoping the organising team are not disheartened by Lee's waspish comments. Had be ever organised an event himself, which he hasn't, he'd know how much time and effort goes into something as big and complicated as LEL and would think twice about slagging them off.
By the way, if you don't want to see any of LMT's posts then do the following
1) go to "profile" then "account settings" then "modify profile" "buddies/ignore list"
2) edit ignore list and add "LMT"
Just sayin'.
There is a problem with this approach .. I have done it BUT when there is a thread like this and I am told that LMT has posted .. I can not resist looking to see what odd comment has now been posted .. so I might just as well not have had him blanked. By the way LMT your portaloo comment .. you did not ride LEL in 2013 .. so why you should bring any PBP experience up for more derogatory comments on LEL I can not imagine. As for the "deferred income etc " .. , I can only refer you to the well known saying about GrandMothers and eggs
The portaloo comment I thought was a valid solution to the issue of riders at some of the controls standing at a urinal in their socks, because they have to take their shoes off before entering (if this is still the case).
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Wear sandals.
No socks, no problem.
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The portaloo comment I thought was a valid solution to the issue of riders at some of the controls standing at a urinal in their socks, because they have to take their shoes off before entering (if this is still the case).
Interestingly, we're considering a portaloo at Barney, but I haven't told Fidgetbuzz yet
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Let's hope I'm not alone is hoping the organising team are not disheartened by Lee's waspish comments. Had be ever organised an event himself, which he hasn't, he'd know how much time and effort goes into something as big and complicated as LEL and would think twice about slagging them off.
By the way, if you don't want to see any of LMT's posts then do the following
1) go to "profile" then "account settings" then "modify profile" "buddies/ignore list"
2) edit ignore list and add "LMT"
Just sayin'.
There is a problem with this approach .. I have done it BUT when there is a thread like this and I am told that LMT has posted .. I can not resist looking to see what odd comment has now been posted .. so I might just as well not have had him blanked.
The theory is that if all/most of us ignore the comments (or in extremis the member) then this simply doesn't happen!
But I confess I've tried to do this in the past and generally failed - curiousity kiled the cat! The backup tactic is not to be wound up by stupidity - also sometimes easier said than done ...
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Matt .. what your advice be for crass stupidity?
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Matt .. what your advice be for crass stupidity?
[I'm not Matt but...]
Patient considered polite responses or, if that can't be managed, no response at all.
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[A Doctor writes]
Some conditions are incurable.
What cannot be cured must be endured.
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The portaloo comment I thought was a valid solution to the issue of riders at some of the controls standing at a urinal in their socks, because they have to take their shoes off before entering (if this is still the case).
Interestingly, we're considering a portaloo at Barney, but I haven't told Fidgetbuzz yet
I seem to remember a discussion about Portaloos with Heather at the Alston control in 2009. I don't remember if it turned up. There was a lot else going on in our lives at that time.
2009 was a real skin of the teeth experience, which I skirted my way around somehow, give or take.
Many expected that running to be a setback for the brand, in the same way that 2007 was for PBP, leading to a lower entry the next time.
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Goes to show that the staging of the event is only really a small part of the event.
The biggest component (not only time wise) is still the 1400km+ of roads that everyone has to cycle. Even then, the route itself is only a small part of that, the rider is responsible for the huge physical effort of riding those roads.
(Alston was one of my favourite controls, I ate there both times and had my best sleep there - 4h or so in a comfy bed - although it helped that I'd left Eskdalemuir just before they stopped [or strongly advised] people not to go out).
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I'm on the 100 hour waiting list for my first LEL, don't mind, it will (hopefully) be a great experience :P I missed out on a guaranteed entry by a month, have my fingers crossed as all the other VC167 boys and girls are doing it :thumbsup:
BTW my kids use LEL a lot in their texts
http://www.acronymfinder.com/Slang/LEL.html
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Matt .. what your advice be for crass stupidity?
[I'm not Matt but...]
Patient considered polite responses or, if that can't be managed, no response at all.
Fully agree
-
[A Doctor writes]
Some conditions are incurable.
What cannot be cured must be endured.
:facepalm: