Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Freewheeling => Topic started by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 April, 2017, 06:16:38 pm
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If I ever have to take a wheel out at the roadside, I turn my bike upside down. I'm aware there's a prejudice against this and the purpose of this thread is to find out why and what people do instead.
The reasons I can think of against turning a bike upside down are:
- possible damage to saddle and bars (or more likely items on the bars)
- bottles falling out of cages, items falling out of luggage
- on old bikes with brake cables coming out the top of the levers, damage to those cables
Of which, only the last seems at all convincing to me, and it doesn't apply to any bike I've owned in the last five years or so.
The alternatives I can think of are:
- hooking bars or saddle, as appropriate, over a suitably positioned projection
- lying the bike on its side
- leaving it upright, perhaps balanced against a wall, tree, etc
All of which have problems. In the first case, there very rarely is a projection of necessary strength at a suitable height in the suitable direction (you can hook your bars over the top of a gate for instance but it's very difficult to do that with a saddle) in the place you happen to be. In the second case, a bike on its side takes up much more space than one in a vertical position, restricting the room left for tyre wrangling or whatever needs to be done. It's also something you need to do in two steps; you'd want to lie the bike on its left to avoid damage to the rear mech (unless you don't have one), but most wheels undo from the left side. Finally, there's a small but potentially serious risk of a flustered and tired rider (or onlooker) putting their foot through a wheel. In the third case, there's again the risk of deraileur damage if it's the back wheel. Fork ends should be tougher but carbon ones might be vulnerable to scratching. The main problem with this technique though is getting the wheel back in; manoeuvring a large frame onto a smaller, obviously unstable wheel (and of course the frame won't stay still either) is much harder than getting a light, controllable wheel into the precise spot on a stable frame.
So why don't people do it the easy way? Or how do they find the hard way easy? A puzzled inquiry.
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I do it the easy way on the bikes that'll let me (remove GPS and any battery lights from the bars and they're good to go). Bar ends on flat bars mean that computers and bells can stay put. Luggage of any real weight has to come off anyway to get at the skewers and make lifting practical.
Turning a recumbent upside-down is unlikely to improve the stability of the situation, and the Streetmachine in particular is a heavy and extremely awkward thing that's vulnerable to lever/shifter damage with its back wheel removed (it'll stand on the fork okay if you remove the front wheel on firm ground). The ICE trike will happily lie on its side for ease of access to a front tube (you don't have to take the wheel off, of course), and I'll lock the front brakes on and wedge something under the dropouts if removing the rear wheel.
What I avoid doing is adjusting gears with the bike upside-down. Gravity makes a difference when tensioners and derailleurs are involved. At home I use a mini work stand. Out and about I might lean it up on its propstand, bungee the rack to a suitable object, or get a volunteer to hold the wheel off the ground.
The old brake levers (or other not-easily-removed delicate handlebar object) thing seems to be the strongest reason not to turn a bike upside-down, the rest is Velominati-style bollocks.
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For the front wheel, I keep the bike upright and lift it off the wheel. Then rest the steel dropouts on the ground keeping the bike upright.
For the rear wheel, I don't turn the bike upside because I use old brakes levers with the cables coming out from the top, I guess not many people use that type anymore. But if I had to, I can remove the cables from the levers very quickly, there is a slot under the hood that lets you remove the inner cable from the lever without having to unthread the inner from the outer cable.
Usually I try to find some railings and hook the saddle and bars over and use a strap around the top tube and railings to hold the bike in position. If there's no railings or similar, as a last resort I lay the bike down on its left hand side or lean it against a wall, both are a bit fiddly but manageable.
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Depends on the surface available for upsides-downing on.
I'd be more reluctant to stand a bike on it's expensive shifters on concrete, but on a soft grass verge I'd not have a problem with that.
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I learnt to do 10 second wheel changes in races many years ago and flipping a bike upside down puts everything in the wrong place for my brain. Rear wheels get dealt with by putting a shoulder under the saddle or saddle bag and using both hands to pop the wheel in or out.
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Sometimes the rules (by which I do of course mean "The Rules") make sense, e.g. the precise angle at which QR levers must always be set, but others are there only as traps for the foolishly pedantic. There's nothing wrong with turning your bike upside down.
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10 second wheel changes in races
That's the other sensible reason for keeping the bike right side up.
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Yebbut most people are not doing 10 second wheel changes.
They need to fix the 1 wheel they have, using only one pair of hands!
This requires you to dispose of the bike one way or another whilst you fettle the wheel.
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Once the wheel is out, I hang the bike on something or lay it on the LH side. Pick the bike up after playing with the wheel and put the wheel back in.
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The injunction against working on a bicycle upside down has been around for longer than The Rules (that I note are now down). I remember reading it sometime in the late nineties, though by then I’d already figured out that upside-down bicycles are almost invariably harder to work on.
In particular, putting wheels in and out and especially the rear one on a derailleur-gear bicycle is easier with the bicycle upright. The key is to shift the chain to the smallest sprocket before removing the wheel. It can then be done in seconds, reliably, without touching the chain or derailleur, whereas doing it upside down is an exercise in frustration requiring three hands, at least one of which ends up filthy.
When a rear wheel is out, lay the bicycle on its left side. It comes to no harm and the chain stays in position for reinserting the wheel without touching chain or derailleur.
That a lying bicycle takes up more space than an upright one seems a hypothetical concern. I’m never that cramped by the roadside.
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Its not a good idea to have hydraulics upside down in general.
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by then I’d already figured out that upside-down bicycles are almost invariably harder to work on.
I agree with this, although in this context it's the wheel you're working on, not the bike. Not normally worth turning the bike upside-down to fettle the brakes, for example, but an upside-down bike does make a serviceable truing stand.
In particular, putting wheels in and out and especially the rear one on a derailleur-gear bicycle is easier with the bicycle upright. The key is to shift the chain to the smallest sprocket before removing the wheel. It can then be done in seconds, reliably, without touching the chain or derailleur, whereas doing it upside down is an exercise in frustration requiring three hands, at least one of which ends up filthy.
Not convinced. There's a knack to both, which seems equally effective when applied correctly. You can certainly install a wheel on an upside down bike without touching the oily bits.
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Even if others have a knack for removing and fitting wheels upside down, I cannot believe they do the job as quickly as I do it upright, if only because turning the bicycle over takes time.
Overturning the bicycle can be dirty work in itself, especially if you don’t have mudguards. I try to keep my hands clean by the roadside, since I don’t carry around a kitchen sink.
The makeshift truing stand is a good reason to overturn the bicycle.
By the way, even at home I don’t use a bike stand or wish for one. But I notice they invariably hold the machine upright.
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By the way, even at home I don’t use a bike stand or wish for one. But I notice they invariably hold the machine upright.
Well obviously. You don't need a stand to hold it upside-down.
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The injunction against working on a bicycle upside down has been around for longer than The Rules (that I note are now down).
TFFT.
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I thought The Rules were a great idea well executed, but they outlived their funniness. As they proliferated their quality and relevance as social commentary declined until the effect was dull and dispiriting – not helped by people earnestly debating whether they should be obeyed.
I reread the thread to find the benefits of turning the bicycle upside down and came up short. It takes what, three seconds, to align wheel and upright fork dropouts, so that sounds like another theoretical difficulty. Besides, when you get the wheel in you can then lean on the bicycle to seat the axle squarely in the dropouts before tightening the skewer. Is wheel weight enough to reliably do that upside down? If not, leaning on the wheel will only do more harm to handlebar appurtenances.
I think you should get someone to show you how to remove and fit wheels upright. It’s convincing. There’s probably a YouTube video.
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Sheldon Brown to the rescue! Or at least his heir presumptive.
Two excellent videos here. (https://www.sheldonbrown.com/quick-review.html) On my bicycle I omit the thumb pushing down the derailleur when fitting the rear wheel. Pressure exerted on the chain by the cog suffices to snap the derailleur into position. Perhaps this is bicycle-specific.
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I don't think anyone removes or fit the front wheel with the bike upside down! Or do they?!
It's easy enough to remove (or fit) the rear wheel on a derailleur bike the right right way up. After the wheel's out, you're left holding the bike with one hand and the wheel with the other. Ideally you'd want to keep the bike upright by itself as you change the tube etc, because it can get messy if the (mucky) chain falls off the chainring (no front mech for me) if you lay the bike down on its side.
That's why I try to find a railings or similar to hook the bike onto. Second choice would be to lean it against a wall, with rear mech resting on the ground. Last would be to lay the bike down.
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I reread the thread to find the benefits of turning the bicycle upside down and came up short.
The benefit is the bike stays put, and you then have both hands available to deal with the wheel. That's all.
If you're able-handed and can hold a bike in the air with one hand while sliding a wheel under it and not drop the bike or fall over backwards into the inevitable nettles, then by all means keep the bike right-side up. With practice, it's probably quicker.
But if someone wants to turn it upside down, perhaps because they lack dexterity, can't see what the derailleur is doing because they're wearing the wrong glasses, need a third hand to manage the QR-mount luggage rack, or are inexperienced in handling wheel-less bikes because they hardly ever get punctures, then what's the problem? If there aren't gadgets or cables to damage, there's no harm in it. If we're going to get worked up about cycling faux pas, wouldn't it be better to concentrate on something more important, like riding around without bar-end plugs, the use of strobe-o-death front lights, or wearing black socks?
Seems to me that this is mostly a shibboleth.
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I don't think anyone removes or fit the front wheel with the bike upside down! Or do they?!
I will at home, because that way the bike doesn't fall over[1] when I inevitably brush past it to reach some tool or other in the small room with too many n+1s. Lying it on the floor would be a tripping hazard. An inverted bike stays put. Hanging from something suitable, or clamping in a full-size workstand[2] would also work fine, but I don't have those things.
At the roadside, I'll stand the bike on the dropouts or lie it on its side when removing the front wheel.
[1] I destroyed a perfectly good (and inevitably discontinued) saddle in a bike dominoes incident because of this.
[2] I don't have one of these because it would be useless for our most-used (and therefore most maintained) cycles. The techniques that work for those work fine for DFs.
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But if someone wants to turn it upside down, perhaps because they lack dexterity, can't see what the derailleur is doing because they're wearing the wrong glasses, need a third hand to manage the QR-mount luggage rack, or are inexperienced in handling wheel-less bikes because they hardly ever get punctures, then what's the problem? If there aren't gadgets or cables to damage, there's no harm in it.
If all sorts of conditions are met, then sure, upside down is not a problem but a solution.
But I think people usually do it for the wrong reasons. One of them may be that they don’t like laying their bicycle on its side for fear of it looking unloved in that fallen posture. By contrast, an upside-down bicycle suggests intent.
I do it upright because it’s easier for me and risks less damage. No other reason. Typically I don’t have an audience to impress with any shibboleths.
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My last roadside puncture repair was on the M5, rear wheel of course, on an arrow straight Fen road where people move fairly rapidly.
Nowhere to hang it from after removing wheel, nothing to hang it from on the bike either if there was a suitable location.
Too much stuff like mirrors and cables on the handlebars to turn upside down
So laid it on it's LHS, did the repair and then struggled manfully to get a 135 hub into the 132.5 rear dropouts whilst preventing the front end of the rather heavy lump wobbling about precariously. A few naughty words later and all done.
No great dramas, no inversions and only a minor amount of swearing. I did go home in a huff after that though as it was bloody cold and I realised my tyre was somewhat past it.
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I turn my bikes upside down if there's somewhere clean and suitable, which is nearly always. Then before removing the wheel from the frame/forks I'l give it a slow spin to see if I can spot the cause and start removing the tyre, I'll also put the wheel back in before inflating, all done at a comfortable working height.
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Yebbut most people are not doing 10 second wheel changes.
They need to fix the 1 wheel they have, using only one pair of hands!
Not necessarily:
(http://www.mvermeulen.com/canada/fotox/jul12_04.jpg)
;)
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on our club rides fellow riders usually hold the bike, while the rider sorts out the puncture. i wouldn't mind turning the bike upside down on soft surface (e.g. grass), but see no real need and it's more faff.
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I've usually got a toestrap with me which helps with the whole hanging the bike on something
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Keeps the chain hanging right on the rear derailleur and makes it easier to re-fit the back wheel.
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Its not a good idea to have hydraulics upside down in general.
It shouldn't make any difference, unless you have air in the system. In which case the appropriate solution is to get it out. :thumbsup:
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But if someone wants to turn it upside down, perhaps because they lack dexterity, can't see what the derailleur is doing because they're wearing the wrong glasses, need a third hand to manage the QR-mount luggage rack, or are inexperienced in handling wheel-less bikes because they hardly ever get punctures, then what's the problem? If there aren't gadgets or cables to damage, there's no harm in it.
If all sorts of conditions are met, then sure, upside down is not a problem but a solution.
But I think people usually do it for the wrong reasons. One of them may be that they don’t like laying their bicycle on its side for fear of it looking unloved in that fallen posture. By contrast, an upside-down bicycle suggests intent.
I do it upright because it’s easier for me and risks less damage. No other reason. Typically I don’t have an audience to impress with any shibboleths.
This reminds me that some couriers choose to leave their bikes upside down outside the drop/pick up point because locking and unlocking wastes precious time, which for them truly is money, and a bike upside down looks as if it's broken and someone's doing something with it; a bike right way up but unlocked is an invitation to ride off.
But that's got nothing to do with taking wheels out.
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Has anyone asked this guy?
http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20170406-the-cuban-building-the-worlds-tallest-bike
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We're sorry but this site is not accessible from the UK as it is part of our international service and is not funded by the licence fee.
Are you still in Didcot, Matt?
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We're sorry but this site is not accessible from the UK as it is part of our international service and is not funded by the licence fee.
Are you still in Didcot, Matt?
Ssssh!!!
More-or-less - I work about 5 miles away. I think we have dutch/belgian internet here - oddly it's never given us problems accessing BBC UK sites. Yesterday I was at a supplier site in Hertfordshire - they were on Belgian internet too. Has Brexit had unexpected side-effects already??
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We're sorry but this site is not accessible from the UK as it is part of our international service and is not funded by the licence fee.
Are you still in Didcot, Matt?
But is Didcot still in the UK?
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We haven't had our referendum.
Yet ...
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... some couriers choose to leave their bikes upside down outside the drop/pick up point ...
.. and wannabe hipsters leaving their langsters upside down outside starbucks on Leith walk.
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We haven't had our referendum.
Yet ...
I think you'll find it's actually the rest of the country voting whether to keep Didcot or not ;D
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... some couriers choose to leave their bikes upside down outside the drop/pick up point ...
.. and wannabe hipsters leaving their langsters upside down outside starbucks on Leith walk.
is there such a thing a real hipster? :D
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I reread the thread to find the benefits of turning the bicycle upside down and came up short.
It's simply easier to put a wheel into a frame than a frame on to a wheel. The Sheldon videos are okay, but I note that the bike is light – he holds it in one hand for quite some time – and moreover, he does nothing with the wheel. Takes it out, leans it against his legs, puts it back in. If you've taken a wheel out you're probably going to do something with it and that's probably going to involve putting the bike down so you can use both hands to remove a tyre etc.
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I turn em upside down in the shop. What I don't do is fasten the skewer until the weight of the bike is on the drop outs. I find SRAM mechs are particular bastards when it comes to refitting rear wheels. And I've been doing them for donkeys years...
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... some couriers choose to leave their bikes upside down outside the drop/pick up point ...
.. and wannabe hipsters leaving their langsters upside down outside starbucks on Leith walk.
is there such a thing a real hipster? :D
They're the ones who were being hipsters before it was cool. But only ironically. You won't see them in a Starbucks though - only a small boutique cafe that you've probably never heard of. /s
obOnTopic: I usually invert the bike for a rear wheel removal but not for the front. Never had a problem finding either something to lean the bike against or enough space to lie it down. Clearly I need to work on my right-way-up rear wheel replacement skills.
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I keep mine the right way up - too much stuff on the bars to be bothered removing it and I don't want to muck up the tape. I lay it flat or hang it from any handy support with my café lock.
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If I ever have to take a wheel out at the roadside, I turn my bike upside down. I'm aware there's a prejudice against this
Really?
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I originally picked up on the non-inverting from sheldon, who pointed to saddle damage as a reason.
For my fixed I remove wheels upright and then lie it on it's side while fixing - my bartape is tatty by design. I can't keep the bike upright without a stand as the longboards are longer than the forks.
For the speedmachine ... I have no idea! I fixed a puncture on the rear wheel at home and it was an epic battle that raged for days; I have no idea how to make it any easier, even using a stand. What's the trick with a laidback?
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For the speedmachine ... I have no idea! I fixed a puncture on the rear wheel at home and it was an epic battle that raged for days; I have no idea how to make it any easier, even using a stand. What's the trick with a laidback?
Hang it from the ceiling by ropes if you can do it. (I can't.)
My usual method for the Streetmachine (which has under-seat steering and risks control damage if laid on its side) is to drop the rear wheel out in a clunky and less well balanced imitation of what the cool kids do, kick the wheel out of the way, and then insert the frame into the mini-workstand that I've got waiting to accept it. Then withdraw to a safe distance to work on the wheel in the hope that the whole thing won't keel over. (Front wheel is easier - drop it out, then balance the bike on the fork ends.) If I'm doing something radical like servicing the fork, it has to go on its side. I'll take measures to protect the shifters and brake levers.
The Baron is smaller and lighter. The wheel drops out easily and the bike can be laid on its left side with impunity, much like a DF road bike. Front wheel likewise.
For the rear of the ICE trike, front brakes on, then drop the wheel out (requires non-trivial arsing about with torque arm and electrickery), then use the mini-workstand or wedge something under the dropout to protect the rear mech. (For front wheels, lay it on the opposite wheel, then work on the tyre in situ at comfortable standing height.)
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I still say that drop-outs are called that for a reason...
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I just had to change a rear tube, which gave me the opportunity to contemplate this matter.
Hung the nose of the saddle over the arm of the workstand while the wheel was out. Putting the wheel back in was pretty much a case of dropping the frame onto the wheel. I can't see that turning the bike upside down would have made wheel replacement easier.
Admittedly, I don't usually have a workstand handy to hold the bike off the ground for roadside tube swaps - I would normally lie the bike on its side.
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I can't see that turning the bike upside down would have made wheel replacement easier.
I'm looking at it from the other direction; trying to work out how not turning the bike upside down could make it easier.
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you don't need to remove bits from the bike and it's easier to put the wheel in (unless you use a technique that works better with the bike rubber side up)
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Bicycle repair man turns it upside down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U01xasUtlvw
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I've always turned my bikes upside down. Quite funny on an evening winter club ride a few months back. It was a kin to a comedy sketch, or a joke, you know..." How many ....... Cyclists does it take to mend a puncture " . We'll in this case 5!!!! It was indeed a comedy of errors, and despite my laughter, and pleadings, they refused to turn the bike upside down to make life easier. Anyway, I'll always do it. when I get a visitation, I know its not a quick swap. So wheel the bike to the verge, out with the tool kit, flip it over, on with the glasses, then INSPECT! Quite often the offending item can be spotted, tyre marked, and partially removed, whilst still in the frame, and problem sorted. Then when its all back together, a slow rotation of both front and back wheel to INSPECT for any other likely culprits. Also now with discs, on Olive, I find that if the wheel is removed, then when reinserted, the wheel can be spun as the qr is tightened, this ensuring the brake is not binding.
Yes I know ...what about if its dark....what about if you cant find the cause ...etc etc.I find that turning the bike upside down, renders it helpless, Like a sick animal, awaiting my delicate , undivided attention, as opposed to rushing the job thro, possible bending mud flaps, mudguards, derailleur etc. . Flipping the bike over sets the scene for an unhurried operation , you wouldn't want to rush it and get it wrong.......BUT you see, this brings us to another question, do you patch, or do you swap?? I always patch unless its raining/ snowing or dark. ......or both. Flipping the bike back over again I get a sense of satisfaction, of job done, a bit like finally closing the bonnet of your car after an oil change/service.
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I've grown to like scuffed saddles and levers
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You can pop the wheel out, pull out the tube, check the tyre, refit everything and pump it up with a frame pump in five minutes. Why make a meal of it by the side of the road if you don't need to?
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I find that turning the bike upside down, renders it helpless, Like a sick animal, awaiting my delicate , undivided attention, as opposed to rushing the job thro,
<snip>
Flipping the bike back over again I get a sense of satisfaction, of job done, a bit like finally closing the bonnet of your car after an oil change/service.
I rather like this attitude!
I no longer flip bikes over - usually - but I totally agree with the feeling of "satisfaction, job done" :)
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BUT you see, this brings us to another question, do you patch, or do you swap??
Swap. Always (or until I run out of tubes). Especially in the dark/wet etc. Incisions in tubes are a bit like trains at a level crossing. You patch one, only to discover the bastard bit of glass or whatever had a couple of bites. And it's quicker.
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I'll patch if it's warm, dry, a convenient place to stop and I'm not in a hurry. It saves the intact tube for the next visitation, where it might be none of those things.
If it's pish, or I'm holding up a group, swap every time.
I apply a similar logic to the use of CO2 rather than a pump.