Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => On The Road => Topic started by: Cudzoziemiec on 15 May, 2017, 06:12:52 pm
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Or at least, the roads. Because ff we put roads in tunnels, it reduces pollution:
The world may have possibly found a solution to climate change in an unexpected place: the west of England metro mayoral race. It seems that Lesley Mansell, the Labour candidate, let slip what could be a universally applicable method for stopping motorway emissions.
“You could potentially put the M32 underground and then reuse the space on top,” Mansell said at a hustings event held last month by the Bristol Post. “It might seem like a wild idea, but sometimes those off-the-wall ideas can have some positive outcomes. It would be much better if you have got the traffic underground, as we wouldn’t have the carbon going into the atmosphere.”
How does that work then?
“[Carbon dioxide] would not be removed by a road tunnel and would consequently emerge into the local atmosphere from the ends of the tunnel,” says Roy M. Harrison, professor at the University of Birmingham’s School of Geography, Earth & Environmental Sciences.
But there is one way it might work:
“You could probably build a tunnel with ventilation shafts that suck the air out and have it scrubbed of pollutants,” says James Lee, professor at the University of York’s National Centre for Atmospheric Science. “But I would imagine this would be a very expensive option.”
A tunnel could, in limited circumstances, stop certain emissions from entering the atmosphere. That’s because particles are created from three different sources on cars: combustion, brake wear, and tyre wear. The tunnel would not stop the first kind from leaving, due to their gaseous nature; but the other two could stick to the tunnel walls.
Worth doing then?
“The reduction in particle loading because of adhesion to the tunnel surface wouldn’t be a particularly effective control technology,” said James Longhurst, professor of environmental science at the University of the West of England.
So there's no point?
But it would be wrong to say that city planners never consider tunnels as a method of maintaining acceptable air quality levels. If building a new road would otherwise push an area past national or European requirements for individual pollutants, placing it underground allows designers to concentrate emissions through the shafts, towards areas where the quality is less of a concern.
http://www.citymetric.com/transport/could-burying-m32-solve-bristol-s-pollution-problem-3030
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Anyone who's visited Birmingham will be familiar with the process of pollutants sticking to tunnel walls. They'll also likely be familiar with the air you end up breathing when made to share an underground space with a number of combustion engines.
I reckon it's largely a red herring as far as air quality goes, but there's logic to burying the cars in order to reclaim the space divided by an impenetrable trunk road.
(I thought this topic was going to be about Elon Musk's Boring Company. He seems to be under the impression that building roads reduces congestion, or at least playing to those who do. Nevertheless, he has form for getting results by throwing the Californian IT startup approach at tough engineering problems, and if they manage to make tunnelling an order of magnitude cheaper, it could have other interesting consequences.)
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It would certainly not prevent the emission of carbon dioxide or monoxide or in any way absorb or retain it, contrary to what Ms Mansell seems to think. It would reduce noise, always a big problem with urban motorways. Ironically, it probably has more chance of happening (still virtually nill, I'm sure) under the Tory winner than if Mansell (Lab candidate for Western super mayor) had won.
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Not sure about this ... Not after watching this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gridlock_(Doctor_Who)
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He's late to the party. The French are already on to this:
Archive:
Drive better underground to live better above ground (https://web.archive.org/web/20101026024814/http://www.cofiroute.fr:80/cofiroute.nsf/en/duplex-a86.htm)
A part of A86 contains the world's longest urban motorway tunnel (10 km of continuous tunnel), opened in two parts in 2009 and 2011 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A86_autoroute)
Have only used it once at the dead of night when it was utterly deserted. I believe the opposing lanes are one on top of the other and the headroom is very low (2m) - my van seemed to be scraping the ceiling and every so often we'd pass under a duct, well it was so low I certainly ducked.
No idea what they do with all the crap that comes out.
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There is a phenomenal tunnel under the mountain that the Snow Road (hint there) goes over in Norway. It's something like 40kms long, with a couple of picnic stops and driving through it is a real experience. The fans keep a lot of air moving through and we felt we were aware of the 4,000ft of rock above. The light in the mirror disappears long before the light appears in front of you.
Overall thought, I'm increasingly in favour of just burying the cars.
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Despite having difficulty breathing, smelling or tasting anything at the moment due to a chest/lung infection - it hurts to cough - yesterday we were treated to the aroma of a non-catalised exhaust from a 1990 Rover 416. The fumes so pungent it was hard to believe that until less than 20 years ago ALL cars smelt like that. CO & HC levels in car exhausts have been reduced by a factor of $LOTS.
I'm not saying we don't suffer from pollution as particulates, NOx and CO2 would seem to have replaced CO & HC but it don't half smell better . . .
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it was hard to believe that until less than 20 years ago ALL cars smelt like that.
I've said the same thing myself on several occasions.
The shift to electrons is going to be even more dramatic. The feint aroma of warm semiconductors doesn't really compare.
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It would certainly not prevent the emission of carbon dioxide or monoxide or in any way absorb or retain it, contrary to what Ms Mansell seems to think.
FTFY
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There is a phenomenal tunnel under the mountain that the Snow Road (hint there) goes over in Norway. It's something like 40kms long, with a couple of picnic stops and driving through it is a real experience. The fans keep a lot of air moving through and we felt we were aware of the 4,000ft of rock above. The light in the mirror disappears long before the light appears in front of you.
Overall thought, I'm increasingly in favour of just burying the cars.
Yeah! Just do it!
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_xRFNBWST25E/STB7lhDD6XI/AAAAAAAACBg/A-LmiZZ4Zy0/s400/Cadillac-Ranch-b%26w.jpg)
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Probably ten of the most unpleasant minutes of my life. Driving a 1.9m high van through the A86 Versaille Tunnel (height limit - 2.0m).
Ten minutes, waiting for the BANG! as the roof makes contact with the signs attached to the tunnel ceiling. Thankfully, it never came :thumbsup:.
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Probably ten of the most unpleasant minutes of my life. Driving a 1.9m high van through the A86 Versaille Tunnel (height limit - 2.0m).
Ten minutes, waiting for the BANG! as the roof makes contact with the signs attached to the tunnel ceiling. Thankfully, it never came :thumbsup:.
Tell me about it!
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Have only used it once at the dead of night when it was utterly deserted. I believe the opposing lanes are one on top of the other and the headroom is very low (2m) - my van seemed to be scraping the ceiling and every so often we'd pass under a duct, well it was so low I certainly ducked.
Mine's a hiace with a roof-rack.. Yours?
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Probably ten of the most unpleasant minutes of my life. Driving a 1.9m high van through the A86 Versaille Tunnel (height limit - 2.0m).
Ten minutes, waiting for the BANG! as the roof makes contact with the signs attached to the tunnel ceiling. Thankfully, it never came :thumbsup:.
Tell me about it!
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Have only used it once at the dead of night when it was utterly deserted. I believe the opposing lanes are one on top of the other and the headroom is very low (2m) - my van seemed to be scraping the ceiling and every so often we'd pass under a duct, well it was so low I certainly ducked.
Mine's a hiace with a roof-rack.. Yours?
:D
Mercedes Vito.
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Carbon dioxide would not be removed by a road tunnel. and would consequently emerge into the local atmosphere from the ends of the tunnel,” says Roy M. Harrison, professor at the University of Birmingham’s School of Geography, Earth & Environmental Sciences.
Talk about statements of the bleedin obvious. On that basis I and most of the other members of YACF could become Professors of Geography etc etc.
Don't forget that it was those nasty French tunnel thingys that killed Princess Di.
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(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8193/29125233710_24411ede01_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/LnGrgU)
P9020201 (https://flic.kr/p/LnGrgU) by Mr Larrington (https://www.flickr.com/photos/mr_larrington/), on Flickr
Best thing you can do with a VW Beetle.
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Gratuitous NY content.
(https://getbacktovinyl.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/20120412-143301.jpg?w=1860)
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It would certainly not prevent the emission of carbon dioxide or monoxide or in any way absorb or retain it, contrary to what Ms Mansell seems to think.
FTFY
Oops. Careless typo on my part. :-[ Original corrected.
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He's late to the party. The French are already on to this:
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She, actually. But Lesley is one of those unisex names. But to the tunnels: I think Brussels is famous for them? Question is though, what the thinking was when they were built. I don't see anything in the links you gave to suggest they were built in the belief that tunnels would somehow absorb or trap pollution.
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He's late to the party. The French are already on to this:
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She, actually. But Lesley is one of those unisex names. But to the tunnels: I think Brussels is famous for them? Question is though, what the thinking was when they were built. I don't see anything in the links you gave to suggest they were built in the belief that tunnels would somehow absorb or trap pollution.
OK, try this:
https://web.archive.org/web/20101027084720/http://www.cofiroute.fr:80/cofiroute.nsf/en/duplex-a86-environment.htm]Duplex A86 toll stations are coated with NOxer®, an innovative coating that eliminates the main pollutants emitted by cars by means of a chemical reaction. (http://)
Cofiroute has set up an observatory with AirParif, an independent organisation, to track air quality in the entire western part of the greater Paris area.
Spot measurements and modelling tools provide ongoing air quality monitoring.
..and from there to here: http://www.airparif.asso.fr/. There is an English version (still).
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..errrrr
Electric Cars?
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..errrrr
Electric Cars?
Yes! Although one of the things the article does point out which it's easy to forget is that electric cars (and even bicycles to a tiny extent) produce particulate pollution from tyres and brakes.
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And damage to road surfaces. And (at the moment) emissions at generation point. And the environmental damage of infrastructure for motorised vehicles.
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And the psychological and social damage of being cocooned/shut up in a box. And the same traffic danger. In other words, as Pancho used to say, cars are still cars however they're powered. Even if they're in a tunnel.
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You know what's really rubbish? Driving an electric car through the
Mines of Moria Queensway tunnels when there's a proper Brummie traffic jam in progress. :sick:
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You know what's really rubbish? Driving an electric car through the Mines of Moria Queensway tunnels when there's a proper Brummie traffic jam in progress. :sick:
Just wondering if it is more rubbish than in an infernal combustion machine?
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You know what's really rubbish? Driving an electric car through the Mines of Moria Queensway tunnels when there's a proper Brummie traffic jam in progress. :sick:
Just wondering if it is more rubbish than in an infernal combustion machine?
In absolute terms that's obviously going to be worse, but subjectively you've got used to being able to breathe and then *urgh*
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Yeah. I thought that was where you were coming from, but I wondered if there was something else I was unaware of.
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That's obviously another factor; tunnels full of motor vehicles are supremely unfriendly to cyclists, pedestrians and horseists, if any should be unwise enough to try using them. Not a factor with the M32 obviously (don't know these Queensway dungeons) but nevertheless...
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I saw someone riding a bike through one of them *once*. Narrow lanes, 30mph speed limit (with most people trying to do 40), no oxygen, uphill on the way out. Horrible.
If Birmingham City Council had guts, they'd use them as part of a SkyRide (or whatever they're called now) route, for the sheer novelty value. Like Coventry does with the infamous ring road.
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There would be novelty value and display of guts but I bet they still stink of fumes after being motor-free for 24 hours.
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There would be novelty value and display of guts but I bet they still stink of fumes after being motor-free for 24 hours.
Probably true. Indeed, I expect they still will when they're unearthed by future archaeologists.
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The archaeologists also stand a decent chance of finding the cars still in it with the occupants inside them when traffic jams exceed the possible lifetime of the average human.
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I cycled through them a few times when younger and still able to turn on a decent speed. The good thing was there was always a tail wind caused by the traffic.
I stopped doing it after coming across a cyclist there when driving myself and realising how very little warning I had of their presence due to the curve.
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Like a bat out of
hell the Queensway Tunnel.