Yet Another Cycling Forum
Off Topic => The Pub => The Sporting Life => Topic started by: Basil on 20 April, 2018, 10:32:35 pm
-
Is that the correct spelling?
I'll miss him, mostly because he's about the only footbally name I actually understand and know who he is.
Errr, what, errr, I won't, errr, miss, errr, is, errr, "Errr".
Edit:. Thread title corrected. Thanks hatler.
-
Wenger.
-
Ok. Ta. Errr, Title modified.
-
Has somesing 'appened to 'im? Ah did not see ze ahncident!
-
Arsenal'll struggle to find another bloke with 'Arse' in his name.
-
I doubt that they will have any difficulty recruiting a total arse though.
-
He left it too late to quit and tarnished his legacy at the club.
Clearly he helped raise the standards of the English game but you really don't want large sections of the fans chanting "Arsene Out" every game for 2 seasons.
As a Man U fan I was happy for him to remain and extend his new-found mediocrity for a few more seasons.
-
You're spoilt, Lee. there is nothing tarnished about Wenger's reputation. It's all the minds of some fans. It's up there with first world problems. Anyone who supports a loss lofty team will tell you that. Arsenal have finished in the top 6 for the last 22 years or something. Nothing tarnished about that. The man is an unqualified success.
-
You're spoilt, Lee. there is nothing tarnished about Wenger's reputation. It's all the minds of some fans. It's up there with first world problems. Anyone who supports a loss lofty team will tell you that. Arsenal have finished in the top 6 for the last 22 years or something. Nothing tarnished about that. The man is an unqualified success.
My point is that, if you plotted a graph of his success, it would be a classic bell-curve. He was on an upward trajectory for the first half of his tenure and a downward one for the second.
Quitting on the downward slope will always tarnish a reputation. The sheer number of "Arsene Out" chants and banners, from Arsenal fans I should add, clearly mean his reputation is tarnished from what it was 10 years ago.
Now he's going, all the "Arsene Out" protests will be forgotten and the fans will rally around his highpoints. Unfortunately his last Premiership highpoint was 14 years ago. Even Man U (who have been in a slump) have won it 5 times since Arsenal last did. He never won a Champions League.
He's been living on past glories for a decade or more.
-
Well, ok, but I think you miss the point about expectation. I support Newcastle and would be happy to have spent time anywhere on that Arsenal bell curve! The Champions League has completely distorted people's view of what success is, I think.
-
I think it all fell over when the Premiership season extended beyond and after the FA Cup Final.
*says a Hardly Poo Untied supporter* ::-)
-
... if you plotted a graph of his success, it would be a classic bell-curve...
And now we're at the bell end.
-
I would argue (from the perspective of a Liverpool fan) that there are basically 3 different segments to his Arsenal career.
1. Revolutionary (but with the old back 4 and a competitive amount of money (in the top 3 most expensive teams/squads in the league)). This is when he won a lot, and established the reputation.
2. Emirates payback. More kids, less money, less winning. Enormously pretty football, generally happy fans.
3. Past it. Spending money again, but characterised by a lack of steel and inability to win the top prizes, generally out-tacticed by the top teams/coaches. Wenger Out movement noisy for this whole time.
Clearly in segment 1 he was genuinely revolutionary - he brought knowledge about how to be a professional athlete to british football. He did a great job in segment 2 because he kept Arsenal in the top 4 while not spending money and being compelled to sell his best players. Hopefully segment 3 will be glossed over (though remembering that he actually won 3 FA cups in this period).
-
Clearly he helped raise the standards of the English game
He may not have a trophy to celebrate that fact, but to influence the standards of a national game, whether on or off the field, is a huge achievement in itself.
-
Clearly he helped raise the standards of the English game
He may not have a trophy to celebrate that fact, but to influence the standards of a national game, whether on or off the field, is a huge achievement in itself.
Absolutely, but maybe I should clarify. He helped raise the standards of the game played in the English Premier League.
He did very little to help actual English players and was, i think, the first manager to field a side devoid of English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish players.
Everyone has since followed suit* to the detriment of the National team.
*Not sure how many sides have been 100% "foreign" though.
-
I doubt that they will have any difficulty recruiting a total arse though.
I heard a rumour that Brendan Rodgers is a contender to replace him. That would tick that box.
-
I doubt that they will have any difficulty recruiting a total arse though.
I heard a rumour that Brendan Rodgers is a contender to replace him. That would tick that box.
I think his reputation has been tarnished somewhat unfairly by the last year and a bit at Liverpool. I hope he gets another chance somewhere he can realistically challenge for things.
-
I doubt that they will have any difficulty recruiting a total arse though.
I heard a rumour that Brendan Rodgers is a contender to replace him. That would tick that box.
I think his reputation has been tarnished somewhat unfairly by the last year and a bit at Liverpool. I hope he gets another chance somewhere he can realistically challenge for things.
Lets add that his reputation was tarnished in the way he left his first management job and went to Reading.
-
I doubt that they will have any difficulty recruiting a total arse though.
I heard a rumour that Brendan Rodgers is a contender to replace him. That would tick that box.
I think his reputation has been tarnished somewhat unfairly by the last year and a bit at Liverpool. I hope he gets another chance somewhere he can realistically challenge for things.
Lets add that his reputation was tarnished in the way he left his first management job and went to Reading.
Managers (like footballers) move clubs. I don't know the specifics of the Watford departure, and it clearly left a sour taste for Watford, but I doubt there are many players or managers in the top flight who have left all their prior clubs with nothing but goodwill.
-
Clearly he helped raise the standards of the English game
He may not have a trophy to celebrate that fact, but to influence the standards of a national game, whether on or off the field, is a huge achievement in itself.
He did very little to help actual English players and was, i think, the first manager to field a side devoid of English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish players.
He played UK players when he thought they were good enough, which unfortunately was all too infrequent - just like every other club/manger in the Premiership was doing at the time and has done ever since. The trend to include talented [and actually cheaper] foreign players started long before Wenger arrived. You've only got to look at the style of team Glenn Hoddle was starting to get together at Chelsea to see that.
Listening to Martin Keown on Five Live the other day - he was saying that when Wenger arrived they had no idea who he was. And he changed everything over night according to Keown, their approach to training, dietry habits etc and they soon realized the ship had very much changed direction big time.
-
Yes, the foreign thing isn't down to Wenger alone. I think he must have arrived at Wengeral in about 1996. Manchester United won the championship in 1996-7 and four of their main players stand out as being in the current tradition of foreign - Schmeichel, Cantona, Cruyff and Solskjaer - and that's in the team that had (and probably still has) the best youth set-up in the league.
-
Yes, the foreign thing isn't down to Wenger alone. I think he must have arrived at Wengeral in about 1996. Manchester United won the championship in 1996-7 and four of their main players stand out as being in the current tradition of foreign - Schmeichel, Cantona, Cruyff and Solskjaer - and that's in the team that had (and probably still has) the best youth set-up in the league.
I certainly wasn't implying Wenger invented the foreign player, just that he took it to the ultimate extreme.
Cruyff was never a "main player". The other 3 were. The majority of the squad that season were British isles/Irish. That's quite a way from being 100% non-British/irish.
Denis Irwin
David May
Gary Neville
Phil Neville
Gary Paillister
David Beckham
Nicky Butt
Ryan Giggs
Roy Keane
Paul Scholes
Andy Cole
Brian Mclair
They were in the 96/97 squad (amongst several lesser known British/irish players).
Several were from within 20 minutes of Old Trafford and part of the previous season's "you'll never win anything with kids" Premiership winning side.
I can't see that happening again, winning the Premiership with such a proportion of local kids and home-grown talent.
-
Oh, yes, it was certainly a great team and largely home grown, although Schmeichel and Cantona were hugely influential. I say only, "Newcastle 5 - Manchester 0". I can still remember listening to that in the shed - the shed only just survived. In fact, that season, Manchester United picked up very few points against the three North-East teams and were even thrashed by Southampton 6 - 3. But they still won the league by about 7 points. A very good team.
-
That team was built during the era where you were only allowed 3 non-English players in european matches. Wenger's arrival co-incided with that rule being abolished (and also with the start of the Premier League's spending power increase, meaning many PL clubs could compete with european giants on wages).
-
The £ was worth about 50% more in the early 2000s against the Euro, which had the effect of pulling in a generation of talented French players.
-
The £ was worth about 50% more in the early 2000s against the Euro, which had the effect of pulling in a generation of talented French players.
It was actually Arsene Wenger's knowledge of the French players that brought in a high percentage of French players to the Arsenal team instead of, say, German, Spanish or Italian players.
It was a market almost entirely ignored by other scouts from other clubs. Wenger hand-picked the cream of French football, many of whom went on to form the backbone of the French team that won both the European Championships and World cup.
-
It was actually Arsene Wenger's knowledge of the French players that brought in a high percentage of French players to the Arsenal team instead of, say, German, Spanish or Italian players.
He actually bought quite a few notable non-French players - Bergkamp, Overmars, Van Persie, Campbell (English!), Touré, Fabregas...
Some of the French players he signed turned out to be duffers too - Cygan, Chamakh...
It was a market almost entirely ignored by other scouts from other clubs. Wenger hand-picked the cream of French football, many of whom went on to form the backbone of the French team that won both the European Championships and World cup.
Arsenal had two players in the 1998 World Cup winning squad. Pires didn't join Arsenal until afterwards.
And Chelsea under Ranieri had the same number of players as Arsenal (three) in the 2000 Euro winning squad. Anelka had already left Arsenal for Madrid by then.
Houllier also had an eye for the French market, due to his links with the French FA, but he was never quite as successful... Anyone remember Florent Sinama Pongolle, or Bruno "the new Zidane" Cheyrou?
Wenger's real skill was buying unfancied players cheaply, turning them into world-class superstars and selling them on for massive profit.
-
Bergkamp was bought when Arsenal were manged by Bruce Rioch. Though he (like many of the players Arsene bought) was (ridiculously) viewed as a flop at Inter and came to Arsenal under a bit of a cloud.
Did Petit not make the WC squad? I thought Petit, Viera, Henri and Anelka all made it...
-
Bergkamp was bought when Arsenal were manged by Bruce Rioch.
Righto!
Did Petit not make the WC squad? I thought Petit, Viera, Henri and Anelka all made it...
Petit and Vieira were the two Arsenal players. Pires and Henry were both in the squad but not yet at Arsenal, and neither played in the final anyway. Petit played in the final but Vieira only came on as a late sub; Juventus, by contrast, had three players who played the full 90 minutes - Zidane, Deschamps and Thuram.
Anelka wasn't in the 98 World Cup squad - Jacquet thought he was still too young. Although he's actually a few months older than Michael Owen, who had a pretty memorable tournament.
(I was at home on paternity leave for the early stages of the tournament so watched the England-Argentina game with my two-week-old son on my knee - and when Owen scored that goal, I nearly dropped him through leaping up and cheering. For which my wife still hasn't forgiven me.)
-
I'll certainly miss his humility and grace in defeat.
-
I'll certainly miss his humility and grace in defeat.
I didn't see that
-
I'll certainly miss his humility and grace in defeat.
I didn't see that
Don't be so impatient, he's bound to show some eventually. It's only been 22 years for god's sake.
-
When my son mentioned the other day that Zeljko Buvac had fallen out with Jurgen Klopp, I was only half-joking when I said it's probably because he's after the Arsenal job.
Now everyone is saying it!
He'd be an interesting replacement for Wenger. He's spent most of his post-playing career as Klopp's number two, but he's supposedly the brains behind Liverpool's current high-speed attacking style of play, which would suit Arsenal fans.
-
Don't be so impatient, he's bound to show some eventually. It's only been 22 years for god's sake.
Wouldn't be so sure - Ferguson managed to go a whole 27 years at Man United without showing any humility.
-
Don't be so impatient, he's bound to show some eventually. It's only been 22 years for god's sake.
Wouldn't be so sure - Ferguson managed to go a whole 27 years at Man United without showing any humility.
Ferguson was famously antagonistic before and during the game, but generally gentlemanly afterwards, with a decent Red in his office for the opposing manager.
It's a petty thing but it was generally Wenger who refused the handshakes with the opposing managers.
He even described Giggs' wonder goal against Arsenal as, "a few lucky bounces", he couldn't ever find it in himself praise the beauty of it.
He's a terrible loser, which is fine when you're the "Invincibles", but slightly awkward considering how many times he started losing thereafter.
I'm sorry he's going as I'll miss watching that tiny miserable tortoise head's pained expression as Arsenal capitulate at the vital moments.
Best of all though:
Ferguson Wenger
Premier Champions 13 3
FA Cup 5 7
Champions League 2 0
League Cup 4 0
Cup Winners Cup 1 0
Other Sundry trophies 12 7
He has a chance of the Europa Cup as a parting gift to the fans but, overall, I'd say most football fans would be shocked to see that he only won 3 Premiership titles, and none for 14 years.
10 major trophies in 22 years. I'd say the FA Cup may have saved him on at least 2 occasions, possibly the last 3.
Edit. As a final post-script to his time at Arsenal he gets beaten his old rivals at Old Trafford in a "damp squib" of a game, is beaten in the semi-final of the Europa League (meaning he never won a European trophy) and will most likely finish 6th in the Premiership table and miss out in Europe.
It's precisely how the graph of his Arsenal career predicted it would end.
His successor, unhindered by travels to unpronounceable places in Ukraine in January, will be able to concentrate on the Premiership and do very nicely in my opinion. Perfect time to step in.
-
Bloody hell... is this Wenger thread still going? Come on mods! Surely there is a limit to the quantity of bollocks one can spout about a single over-the-hill fupboll manager... ?
-
I think the mods should look at who keeps it going.
-
Bloody hell... is this Wenger thread still going? Come on mods! Surely there is a limit to the quantity of bollocks one can spout about a single over-the-hill fupboll manager... ?
"Surely there is a limit to the quantity of bollocks one can spout about ........."
Are you new to YACF Wowbagger?
-
I believe Wenger was a Grand Master at Chess, Wowers. Would you still like this thread continued?