Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Audax => Topic started by: kulturlandschaft on 30 May, 2018, 03:25:10 pm
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new to this discipline, know nowt about it, apart from a couple of 200k's I've done...is it on the up, more events and participation, homeostasis or decline ? Seen a few videos on youtube that mention it's changed a lot recently but that's true for all types of cycling being a bit more 'golf' like...
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Hold on. Let me get some popcorn.
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Number of events is basically static, membership grows about 10% annually, participation in longer events has grown similarly in recent years after a decade of static numbers starting around the turn of the century.
http://www.aukweb.net/results/statistics/ gives some numbers.
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Surprisingly healthy (given the increased competition from sportifs, night rides etc). If there was a period of decline it was around 1998-2008, but since then things have looked much healthier statistically.
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My dad says it's changed - it used to have the reputation of a bunch of slightly weird older men sleeping in bus shelters, eating flapjacks, drinking cold tea and scowling at passers by. Now it's got a better rep with wider and more diverse participation, more like low-intensity sportives with even more stops at cafés or even - pause for effect - pubs.
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Depends which end of the ride. Front end=mostly normal, back end= Morris dancers on bikes.
Pick a spot
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I like the weird and wonderful bikes... I always get disappointed if I don't see trikes, foldings, recumbents, faired Velomobiles or else...
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My dad says it's changed - it used to have the reputation of a bunch of slightly weird older men sleeping in bus shelters, eating flapjacks, drinking cold tea and scowling at passers by. Now it's got a better rep with wider and more diverse participation, more like low-intensity sportives with even more stops at cafés or even - pause for effect - pubs.
For me, the great thing about audax is that it's (mostly) for riders who don't much care about reputations. And it's easily the most diverse niche out there.
(heck, we even welcome Flatus and his plastic bikes).
It's not like cyclists have that great a reputation in the UK generally, no matter how cool you think your kit, your bike, your hair, or your choice of event are!
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..... the most diverse niche .......
Oxymoron?
;D
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My dad says it's changed - it used to have the reputation of a bunch of slightly weird older men sleeping in bus shelters, eating flapjacks, drinking cold tea and scowling at passers by. Now it's got a better rep with wider and more diverse participation, more like low-intensity sportives with even more stops at cafés or even - pause for effect - pubs.
Here's a photo of mattc stopping off mid-ride for a quick dance
(https://open-morris.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Braybrooke-Morris-9.jpg)
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Participation at the longer distances is cyclical. AUK was founded to put on qualification rides for the 1200 km Paris Brest Paris, which is held every four years.
200, 300, 400 and 600 km rides are required for what we call PBP. So they are much commoner in PBP years. Change becomes very apparent in those years, as 4 year's trends are expressed.
The UK has one of the higher foreign participation rates in PBP, but it's been relatively stable in comparison with the rapid growth in some countries; Thailand especially.
London Edinburgh London is another popular ride, but that has no qualification requirements. It raised the profile of AUK in 2013 and 2017.
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(https://open-morris.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Braybrooke-Morris-9.jpg)
Woman in blue trousers operating the PlayStation controller: “So this button makes them go up. Which one to make them go forward?”
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This conversation goes around from time to time. Audax is a special kind of cycling because only a limited number of people will consider riding 600km in a weekend a sane idea. Just get your head around it please. You give up a whole weekend to ride so far you are incapable of rational thought. Then you are so tierd you only function at 50% for a while. Please come on it is not normal to ordinary people.
Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk
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This conversation goes around from time to time. Audax is a special kind of cycling because only a limited number of people will consider riding 600km in a weekend a sane idea. Just get your head around it please. You give up a whole weekend to ride so far you are incapable of rational thought. Then you are so tierd you only function at 50% for a while. Please come on it is not normal to ordinary people.
Define 'normal' and 'ordinary people' ?
I'm very ordinary but my definition of normal has been re-calibrated by repeated audaxing, not only that but mind & body have adapted so that I am able to function tolerably well after a 600km; probably rather better than those whose idea of 'fun' is to become inebriated on a Friday evening and remain so until Sunday.
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Depends which end of the ride. Front end=mostly normal, back end= Morris dancers on bikes.
Pick a spot
I'm so glad I've been doing my Audax rides on the Continent. I'm very much a full value rider, and push the time limits so much I have taken to giving ride organisers access to my InReach tracker so they can see where I am...
Am definitely not a Morris dancer...
J
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Emotional ramble warning: After a gap in a long cycling life I came back to find that rather than everything being run by volunteers there was huge publicity for commercially run events. Re-finding Audax proved that the Corinthian, amateur, volunteering ethos is still flourishing, getting a good feed of new riders from Sportives who want that spirit along with some truly epic challenges and less fuss (and cost). Wierd, friendly, traditional, retro, trendy (!) forward looking, respecting traditions, however you want to look at it. The variety of events is huge, there is razamatazz if you want it though not often. Or you might be sent on your way by a bloke in a car park with "see you in two days". Self sufficiency, physical and mental challenge, cameraderie, ride alone, ride with a group, hares and tortoises, diversity, smaller events, meaning quieter smaller and more wonderful roads presented by the local expert.
And the grumpys in bus shelters? They're still there, but in with the steel there'll be titanium, tubeless, tri-bars, gpx, bike-packing kit and other new fangled devices. They'll be the ones with the route sheet, spares to lend you and a wet wipe for your brow. And it's great to see younger riders appreciating steel, Carradice, Brooks, fixed wheel.
In other words, it's in a good state.
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Over the 8 years I've been audaxing I've noticed that whilst the number of bearded riders has increased, the average length of beards has decreased, with the long bearded sandal wearing audaxer becoming a rare sight indeed.
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Am definitely not a Morris dancer...
Yet ...
The Morris is like Audax - before you knew about it, you had no idea how it would take over your life.
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Am definitely not a Morris dancer...
Yet ...
The Morris is like Audax - before you knew about it, you had no idea how it would take over your life.
Meeting in strange places on odd days - check
Sect clothes that are appropriate for what you do but are pervy weird for the other 99.99% of the population - check
Odd rituals that spook normal people - check
Ringing tinny bells to attract attention - check
Yes. Audax is the new Morris Dancing.
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I've been an AUK member for far too long (my membership number is 12xx), and although I no longer ride events, I'd say that from my armchair AUK and audax in the UK is in better fettle than I've ever known it.
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My dad says it's changed - it used to have the reputation of a bunch of slightly weird older men sleeping in bus shelters, eating flapjacks, drinking cold tea and scowling at passers by. Now it's got a better rep with wider and more diverse participation, more like low-intensity sportives with even more stops at cafés or even - pause for effect - pubs.
"Better" ::-)
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Here's the answer to the OP:
Rise of the ultra-cyclists: a new breed of riders go the distance
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2018/may/31/rise-ultra-cyclists-london-wales-london-audax?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
Front page of The Guardian Mobile site.
Shows how far audax has come in the last decade.
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I was alerted by a fellow AUK member to the deputy editor of Cycling Plus riding Paris Brest Paris in 2015. I interviewed him, and put some of the footage from PBP and the qualifiers over it. It would never have occurred to me to edit out riders with beards, steel bikes or sandals.
It's inevitable that mainstream aspects of Audax are emphasised in presenting Audax to the mainstream, but it's a diverse field.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qm8X11r-MdU
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My dad says it's changed
like, well, everything in life. You can never step into the same river twice and all that sort of stuff
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My gut feeling is that Audax is growing but on a lower trajectory when compared to cycling more broadly.
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Here's the answer to the OP:
Rise of the ultra-cyclists: a new breed of riders go the distance
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2018/may/31/rise-ultra-cyclists-london-wales-london-audax?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
Front page of The Guardian Mobile site.
Shows how far audax has come in the last decade.
That's it now. organic hummous and aubergine dip will be de rigeur at the end of rides.
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That article has introduced me to Jasmijn Muller and Be The Egg. But I am definitely the potato. Funnily enough, my nephews know me as Uncle Potato.
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I’m not sure I like being referred to as an Ultra Cyclist. It’s not like I’ve changed my hobby much in the last 25 years. The term seems to have been reverse fitted into what we were already doing.
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It's an American term, I believe.
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My dad says it's changed - it used to have the reputation of a bunch of slightly weird older men sleeping in bus shelters, eating flapjacks, drinking cold tea and scowling at passers by. Now it's got a better rep with wider and more diverse participation, more like low-intensity sportives with even more stops at cafés or even - pause for effect - pubs.
"Better" ::-)
The rep is better - there is a wider and more diverse mix of people giving it a go, which is great for all of us.
Off to do a populaire this Sunday it'll be really interesting to see what everyone else will be like, it might be used by many to 'dip their toes'.
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My gut feeling is that Audax is growing but on a lower trajectory when compared to cycling more broadly.
Slow and steady, the Audax way...
I feel the big picture is very mixed. Where I am, at least, TT-ing seems static, sportives and the like massively growing, also the whole fitness stravapalaver, whereas utility cycling and ordinary leisure cycling declining. My Audax events have grown to the point where I'm at the limit of the church halls and car park - for PBP qualifiers next year I'll probably have to have a cap on numbers. Moving to bigger premises will hike the price considerably.
No one in my club is interested in any form of touring, except perhaps the big bucks organised [maybe charity] affairs, common to see riders drive a handful of miles to the start of a club run, a very few do my populaires. As a non-gps user, annoyingly the club website now suddenly won't let you organise a ride without adding a .gpx - I mean, for a simple evening spin or chaingang, really? Something for the next committee meeting I think...the rise of blind tech-dependance is starting to get to me - typically riders on the local lanes haven't a clue where they are, just following the purple line. ::-) Ok, rant over.
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If everyone follows the purple route in a chain gangs or club rides it makes for less wrong turns leading to crashes.
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As a non-gps user, annoyingly the club website now suddenly won't let you organise a ride without adding a .gpx - I mean, for a simple evening spin or chaingang, really? Something for the next committee meeting I think...the rise of blind tech-dependance is starting to get to me
That's clearly an example of taking things too far!
How about using a dummy, joke GPX? Either one that makes a funny picture, or maybe something clearly unlikely https://ridewithgps.com/events/57035-acme-grand-1000-tom-deakins-audax-event ??
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Surprisingly healthy (given the increased competition from sportifs, night rides etc). If there was a period of decline it was around 1998-2008, but since then things have looked much healthier statistically.
That corresponds to my last Audax event in the West Midlands and my first event (The Snow Roads) after moving to Stornoway - I didn't realise the world of Audax revolves around me ;)
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...the rise of blind tech-dependance is starting to get to me - typically riders on the local lanes haven't a clue where they are, just following the purple line. ::-) Ok, rant over.
This is starting to bug me as well. The number of riders asking for GPX links, for audaxes, over on Facebook is ridiculous! I’m a fan of GPX, but can’t they even prepare their own from the route sheet? It’s not hard, and it allows you to review the route on a (virtual) map.
John
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...the rise of blind tech-dependance is starting to get to me - typically riders on the local lanes haven't a clue where they are, just following the purple line. ::-) Ok, rant over.
This is starting to bug me as well. The number of riders asking for GPX links, for audaxes, over on Facebook is ridiculous! I’m a fan of GPX, but can’t they even prepare their own from the route sheet? It’s not hard, and it allows you to review the route on a (virtual) map.
John
To be fair I recently had a crack at using an audax routesheet to create a GPX, and it was a bit of a nightmare. I am not a complete moron and have navigated around using paper maps for a long time, using a London A to Z when I was a wee lad doing work experience in a Kensington estate agents, but the routesheets are frustratingly light on details such as on which road the 'next left' is turning on to. This can be immensely annoying when trying to trace out where you're up to on a map, and really wouldn't be a difficult thing to include in a computer document.
What works best in my experience are the Dutch style numbered route systems. Instead of giving 'turn left' or 'turn right' instructions, they have a number for each road junction, and routes are expressed as travelling between numbers. So you can just express a route as a series of numbers, instead of daft instructions and cryptic punctuation marks like '$' which require referral to a key. Like everything else in cycling the cloggies are streets ahead while we languish sadly in the back.
Have a look: http://www.hollandcyclingroutes.com/online-cycle-route-planner (http://www.hollandcyclingroutes.com/online-cycle-route-planner)
(https://i.imgur.com/EyCQdHP.jpg)
I will still take the routesheet out with me on my rides but it's not a very good system at all.
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I agree some routesheets aren’t great for plotting and can be frustrating, but it’s not insurmountable. And in the circumstances where the routesheet is a bit average, it’s even more important to review the route before. (Ones without distances I’m looking at you!!!)
John
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I considered what had changed from the first LEL in 1989 in the intro to the LEL 2017 film. The internet and GPS were two obvious influences, both dating from 1989 in their current form.
Lighting is another, as are gravel bikes, which cry out for being put to a use which can be blogged about.
In 1989, riders had to navigate with a route sheet, and see their way with rather dim incandescent lights. GPS and LEDs have extended the careers of those with dodgy eyes, while attracting those who like to make use of their tech skills.
The web also facilitates the feeling of being part of a worldwide community. One you might visit, thanks to cheap air fares.
https://vimeo.com/246622836
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This is starting to bug me as well. The number of riders asking for GPX links, for audaxes, over on Facebook is ridiculous! I’m a fan of GPX, but can’t they even prepare their own from the route sheet? It’s not hard, and it allows you to review the route on a (virtual) map.
Depends on the route sheet. For the rides I've done the Route sheet has just been a list of villages that we pass through. Without the local knowledge knowing that there is a disused railway between these 2 villages, you could easily take a worse route than the one intended. I'd say that GPX is a good way of sharing routes with people.
If you are organising a ride, but don't have the ability/inclination to make a GPX, perhaps ask someone on here to make it, and then review what they've made to make sure it matches what you thought.
Perhaps I'm just being a youngen, but I think in this day and age, giving a GPX of a route is a must.
J
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...the rise of blind tech-dependance is starting to get to me - typically riders on the local lanes haven't a clue where they are, just following the purple line. ::-) Ok, rant over.
This is starting to bug me as well. The number of riders asking for GPX links, for audaxes, over on Facebook is ridiculous! I’m a fan of GPX, but can’t they even prepare their own from the route sheet? It’s not hard, and it allows you to review the route on a (virtual) map.
John
To be fair I recently had a crack at using an audax routesheet to create a GPX, and it was a bit of a nightmare. I am not a complete moron and have navigated around using paper maps for a long time, using a London A to Z when I was a wee lad doing work experience in a Kensington estate agents, but the routesheets are frustratingly light on details such as on which road the 'next left' is turning on to. This can be immensely annoying when trying to trace out where you're up to on a map, and really wouldn't be a difficult thing to include in a computer document.
What works best in my experience are the Dutch style numbered route systems. Instead of giving 'turn left' or 'turn right' instructions, they have a number for each road junction, and routes are expressed as travelling between numbers. So you can just express a route as a series of numbers, instead of daft instructions and cryptic punctuation marks like '$' which require referral to a key. Like everything else in cycling the cloggies are streets ahead while we languish sadly in the back.
Have a look: http://www.hollandcyclingroutes.com/online-cycle-route-planner (http://www.hollandcyclingroutes.com/online-cycle-route-planner)
(https://i.imgur.com/EyCQdHP.jpg)
I will still take the routesheet out with me on my rides but it's not a very good system at all.
Route sheets are very much like a GPX track. They provide plenty of information to follow a track, but in their basic form don't give information about where you actually are or any information about your surroundings. Some orgs add decoration which does give some information. As they are just text it is also easy to add information relating the the current position on the track such as road conditions and controls. I think there is very little difference between the route sheet and the track with respect to knowing where you are. In the old days orgs would quite often recommend OS maps to help re-find the route after an error. That tradition has gone. A number of times I've come across riders relying on the route sheets and no way of validating their current cue line because they have no maps, electronic or otherwise.
I spent 15 years following route sheets and where I have been busy with work and just stuffed the route sheet on my handlebars and followed it have regularly suffered from the not knowing where I am syndrome. To appreciate where I am I need to have studied the route sheet or GPX against a map before the event, or have doe the event many times before. As John says, one of the best ways of understanding the route and knowing where you are is to transcribe a route sheet into a GPX.
I started using GPS in 2012 because I was struggling with route sheets at night due to eyesight. The problem is a combination of being able to focus on the route sheet text without blinding myself with reflected head torch light and being able to read sufficient cues from the surroundings, e.g. sign posts that point in the direction of travel. I don't use the route sheet on the ride anymore unless I have doubt about a control. I do use the route sheet for planning a ride if I find time. I always carry one because they are authoritative, don't rely on batteries/dynamo converters and won't crash unlike a popular common brand of GPS device. The GPS also allows me to zoom out on a map and see where I am! I will never get stuck if my GPS fails but it could be very slow going though a night - and I'd probably lose the EC points. I also find that not relying an a route sheet gives me more time to enjoy the countryside, worry about dark clouds, marvel at double rainbows and watch the road.
I'm sure a few riders will will just read a route sheet before they leave home and ride from memory. I would fail at turn 3. There are many ways of solving most problems.
Hunting for GPX files is only a problem if it causes work/stress for an organiser. Maybe there needs to be a prominent statement somewhere on the events page stating that routes are defined by route sheets and a GPX may not be available.
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My dad says it's changed - it used to have the reputation of a bunch of slightly weird older men sleeping in bus shelters, eating flapjacks, drinking cold tea and scowling at passers by. Now it's got a better rep with wider and more diverse participation, more like low-intensity sportives with even more stops at cafés or even - pause for effect - pubs.
"Better" ::-)
The rep is better - there is a wider and more diverse mix of people giving it a go, which is great for all of us.
But the point of a club (any club) is not inclusivity. Some people are 'in' and others are 'out'. AUK should be an elite club of certified hardriders. The AUK you describe just makes me want to resign.
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Go for it :thumbsup:
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Predictable.
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But the point of a club (any club) is not inclusivity. Some people are 'in' and others are 'out'.
Yes and more people being in is a benefit.
AUK should be an elite club of certified hardriders. The AUK you describe just makes me want to resign.
Ridiculous. If you want to be in a masochistic 'normies out' organisation go somewhere else because this has been contrary to Audax UK strategy since 2013 so if you've got a problem with it, get out of the way. https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/audax-to-harness-sportive-popularity-37406/ (https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/audax-to-harness-sportive-popularity-37406/)
When organisations don't move with the times the volunteer base dies out over time as younger people don't get involved.
The enemy of change is the architect of decay.
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But the point of a club (any club) is not inclusivity. Some people are 'in' and others are 'out'. AUK should be an elite club of certified hardriders. The AUK you describe just makes me want to resign.
What about those in a state of having joined auk, but not yet done a BRM. Should we have provisional status for those who haven't yet done their first brm?
or should we not just be club of nice friendly people who accept any nice friendly people who like to ride bikes?
J
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But the point of a club (any club) is not inclusivity. Some people are 'in' and others are 'out'.
Yes and more people being in is a benefit.
AUK should be an elite club of certified hardriders. The AUK you describe just makes me want to resign.
Ridiculous. If you want to be in a masochistic 'normies out' organisation go somewhere else because this has been contrary to Audax UK strategy since 2013 so if you've got a problem with it, get out of the way. https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/audax-to-harness-sportive-popularity-37406/ (https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/audax-to-harness-sportive-popularity-37406/)
When organisations don't move with the times the volunteer base dies out over time as younger people don't get involved.
The enemy of change is the architect of decay.
I see that 'inclusivity' is illustrated by the young, fit and attractive, climbing a long, steep hill, unencumbered by the usual Audax gear.
(https://cdnmos-bikeradar.global.ssl.fastly.net/images/news/2013/05/22/1369228707408-4cftemfm37iy-945-80.jpg)
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or should we not just be club of nice friendly people who accept any nice friendly people who like to ride bikes?
I think you're describing yacf
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or should we not just be club of nice friendly people who accept any nice friendly people who like to ride bikes?
I think you're describing yacf
I don't recall agreeing to be nice to people or welcoming when I joined AUK. It's a broad church and no-one should be required to conform to what has become the norm rapha wearing, GPS navigating, 1*11 drivetrain, gravel bikes, blah, blah).
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Literally no one is asking you to do any of that. At all.
Old people are the worst snowflakes of all with this kind of thing tbh. Points that if a club doesn't keep up with the times it'll fall out of popularity and the volunteer base will die out get spun as bizarre demands that no one ever made. It's absurd.
This is exactly what happens in many sports clubs. A bunch of old boys who hate change sit at the top, don't move with the times, everyone else down below gets fed up and moves on to something else, and over time the club subs and volunteer base dry up and eventually die out.
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some very amusing and interesting observations.
from my initial thoughts, does seem an eclectic mix of folk, perhaps not so much as the Rough Stuff Fellowship whom I first joined in the 1990's, and arriving astride a mtb with suspension, seemed a tad like arriving at a mosque in a mankini, but transpired to be a veritable Banyan tree in practice and pursuits.
Only the old school types have spoken to me whilst riding an event, but then I'm non too interesting.
( hmm..did my interest in Audax predate my imagining a technoviking beard being a desirable diversion from baldness and increasing fragility, or a causal consequence there of ?, hard to recall with the growing penchant of a disassociation with the passage of time, which suits cycling)
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Like I said a few weeks back when Dim* was running all round the AUK threads.
It's just not very nice round here. Have a look at what someone has done within AUK as a committee member, an organiser or a rider before sticking the boot in.
* who I later found out had never ridden more than a 200k.
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... the Rough Stuff Fellowship whom I first joined in the 1990's, and arriving astride a mtb with suspension, seemed a tad like arriving at a mosque in a mankini,
;D
I knew a young lady (showing my age there) who was ostracised from her CTC group for turning up on a bike with straight forks.
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My dad says it's changed - it used to have the reputation of a bunch of slightly weird older men sleeping in bus shelters, eating flapjacks, drinking cold tea and scowling at passers by. Now it's got a better rep with wider and more diverse participation, more like low-intensity sportives with even more stops at cafés or even - pause for effect - pubs.
"Better" ::-)
The rep is better - there is a wider and more diverse mix of people giving it a go, which is great for all of us.
But the point of a club (any club) is not inclusivity. Some people are 'in' and others are 'out'. AUK should be an elite club of certified hardriders. The AUK you describe just makes me want to resign.
But Audax is not just a club - it is a National Association, and therefore inclusivity is one of its principal points.
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I’m not sure I like being referred to as an Ultra Cyclist. It’s not like I’ve changed my hobby much in the last 25 years. The term seems to have been reverse fitted into what we were already doing.
I recall when venturing into Ironman racing the advent of double Ironman, ad nauseam, seemed mostly to appeal to those who hadn't bothered to master a basic Ironman race, but somehow wanted the kudos of exclusivity that a field of 12 people offered with the possibility of a top 10 finish and eternal bragging rights of status and athletic prowess of a zombie...there's surely always some of that around especially with social media and exploits for views, but Ultra Cyclist seems daft unless it's that scottish chap who went around the world in <80 days ?
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That's it now. organic hummous and aubergine dip will be de rigeur at the end of rides.
[/quote]
I think you'll find that is Babaganoush. :P
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Every individual audaxer has the freedom to change the perception of AUK. If you see someone who doesn't fit in, a friendly word or a scowl will have a big ripple effect. Your club is in your own hands. (I'm not a member.)
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Hi, ... Nick is it? Here's wishing you lots of good riding!
Tony
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Yep. I think it's friendlier than when I first joined 12 years ago. Less cliquey. There seemed to be a pecking order of rather sad old men. There's a joyous enthusiasm brought in by a younger crowd. Some nice old chaps too, but the self-regarding 'big names' are increasingly unknowns. As they should be.
I disagree strongly with Frankly Frankie and will continue to do my bit to make it the sort of club he doesn't want to be in. ;D
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But the point of a club (any club) is not inclusivity. Some people are 'in' and others are 'out'.
Yes and more people being in is a benefit.
AUK should be an elite club of certified hardriders. The AUK you describe just makes me want to resign.
Ridiculous. If you want to be in a masochistic 'normies out' organisation go somewhere else because this has been contrary to Audax UK strategy since 2013 so if you've got a problem with it, get out of the way. https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/audax-to-harness-sportive-popularity-37406/ (https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/audax-to-harness-sportive-popularity-37406/)
When organisations don't move with the times the volunteer base dies out over time as younger people don't get involved.
The enemy of change is the architect of decay.
I see that 'inclusivity' is illustrated by the young, fit and attractive, climbing a long, steep hill, unencumbered by the usual Audax gear.
(https://cdnmos-bikeradar.global.ssl.fastly.net/images/news/2013/05/22/1369228707408-4cftemfm37iy-945-80.jpg)
Has that photo been tilted to make it look more uphill? It doesn’t look right.
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No, there's actually an uphill sea in that location.
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Hi, ... Nick is it? Here's wishing you lots of good riding!
Tony
Thanks! Not done any since 2010. I've recently resumed vicarious cycling at YACF and am hoping this will lead to the real thing soon.
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No, there's actually an uphill sea in that location.
It's something you see a lot in skiing brochures to make slopes seem more daunting, the trees give it away there. It's an idealised view of the type of people who might be attracted to Audax, if it wasn't for those pesky old coffin-dodgers, and the laws of perspective.
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The guy in blue looks like he's squeezing out a fart.
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To be fair, three of the bikes have mudguards. So it was probably an 'Audax Bike Group-test', the art director has searched for Audax, then tweeked the slope. All publishers have a house style.
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The guy in blue looks like he's squeezing out a fart.
Quite - with proper Audaxers no squeezing needed
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...the rise of blind tech-dependance is starting to get to me - typically riders on the local lanes haven't a clue where they are, just following the purple line. ::-) Ok, rant over.
This is starting to bug me as well. The number of riders asking for GPX links, for audaxes, over on Facebook is ridiculous! I’m a fan of GPX, but can’t they even prepare their own from the route sheet? It’s not hard, and it allows you to review the route on a (virtual) map.
A GPX file is exactly that though. It's just a standard format for storing and exchanging lines on maps, without having to waste time and data (and get into copyright issues) storing the map itself. Given suitable tools it's easier to prepare a GPX Track than a good routesheet, it can be rendered in a way that suits the end user rather than the creator[1], and routes encoded as a list of coordinates are much, much less ambiguous than a traditional routesheet.
The use of GPS receivers is orthogonal to the use of GPX. They're equally useful for users of electronic or paper maps. And as for people asking for one, sometimes it's nice to look at a map of where a ride goes when deciding whether you'd like to do it. (Agree that it's probably overkill for a typical club run, where "n miles, stopping at the foobar cafe for lunch" would normally be sufficient.)
[1] Hands up who's spent quality time re-formatting a routesheet in their preferred font / measurement units / paper size?
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I agree regarding looking to see where a route goes, but this is usually in relation to audaxes already entered. Look at all the posts in the week leading up to BCM for example. People aren’t even considering sitting down and creating there own GPX, and by extension aren’t reviewing the route. They just want to plug in a ride and blindly follow it.
John
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I agree regarding looking to see where a route goes, but this is usually in relation to audaxes already entered. Look at all the posts in the week leading up to BCM for example. People aren’t even considering sitting down and creating there own GPX, and by extension aren’t reviewing the route. They just want to plug in a ride and blindly follow it.
TBH, I reckon poorly prepared riders are technology-agnostic. They're probably the same ones who don't have spare batteries or a decent puncture kit, and have no idea how frayed their gear cable isn't.
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I think Audax is a broader church than many riders actually experience. As pointed out upthread, the culture at the "front" and "back" of many rides can be quite different. But also, a BP that includes a 50 and 100 has quite a different feel and more diverse group of riders than a hilly 600 or fast 300.
I guess that Guardian article is a success of sorts for Audax although I think by focusing on a tough 400 with only mention of longer distances it does create the impression of Audax as a club for (slightly dysfunctional) hard men. Not sure it will help in diversifying the appeal of the activity.
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...so if you've got a problem with it, get out of the way. https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/audax-to-harness-sportive-popularity-37406/ (https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/audax-to-harness-sportive-popularity-37406/)
That makes rather grim reading (both the sentiment and the link).
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Who spotted the incorrect number in that Grauniad piece? It says the earliest permitted finish time was 10.30 pm. Should have said 7.34 pm.
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My dad says it's changed - it used to have the reputation of a bunch of slightly weird older men sleeping in bus shelters, eating flapjacks, drinking cold tea and scowling at passers by. Now it's got a better rep with wider and more diverse participation, more like low-intensity sportives with even more stops at cafés or even - pause for effect - pubs.
"Better" ::-)
The rep is better - there is a wider and more diverse mix of people giving it a go, which is great for all of us.
But the point of a club (any club) is not inclusivity. Some people are 'in' and others are 'out'. AUK should be an elite club of certified hardriders. The AUK you describe just makes me want to resign.
But there's room for a sub-section of certfiableed hardriders within a broader club. You can be in the broader club because you are an Ultra-SR or have a 100k km award, or because you aspire to join their number, or because you are in awe of their achievements, or simply because you like the thought of other people riding their bikes, or maybe even because you like riding yours.
I'm very much more comfortable being part of an organisation that welcomes a wider, more diverse membership than I would be joining one that required an SR or even a BR as a membership qualification. In part that's because I want to help encourage more people to take steps towards that first BR or SR, in part that's because I think an organisation of Ultra-SRs mumbling into their beards about how it was all better in 1896 wouldn't be very much fun or very long-lasting.
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I think if we want to keep Audax sandalised in the UK we need to take the website down randomly.
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...so if you've got a problem with it, get out of the way. https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/audax-to-harness-sportive-popularity-37406/ (https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/audax-to-harness-sportive-popularity-37406/)
That makes rather grim reading (both the sentiment and the link).
Fortunately the link was inaccessible to me but I got the gist and ESL's reproduction of the front page was most helpful. Remarkable really, that 3 of them have mudguards. Is this AUK's ultimate legacy?
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(https://cdnmos-bikeradar.global.ssl.fastly.net/images/news/2013/05/22/1369228707408-4cftemfm37iy-945-80.jpg)
That sort of picture reminds me why I don't read those magazines. What the hell is going on with the lighting? Do they live in some sort of binary solar system? Do they just photoshop everything out of habit? Must all riders be permanently grinning and wearing matching shades?
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That sort of picture reminds me why I don't read those magazines. What the hell is going on with the lighting? Do they live in some sort of binary solar system? Do they just photoshop everything out of habit? Must all riders be permanently grinning and wearing matching shades?
It's all marketing now. The magazine markets a lifestyle to readers who will buy from the advertisers.
Fortunately AUK's attempts so far are relatively tame, but I think they're seen by some as a bandwagon to jump on.
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That sort of picture reminds me why I don't read those magazines. What the hell is going on with the lighting? Do they live in some sort of binary solar system? Do they just photoshop everything out of habit? Must all riders be permanently grinning and wearing matching shades?
It's all marketing now. The magazine markets a lifestyle to readers who will buy from the advertisers.
Fortunately AUK's attempts so far are relatively tame, but I think they're seen by some as a bandwagon to jump on.
To be fair, that photo is also pretty tame. Four average-looking people dressed in moderately sporty clothes on a ride.
Hardly extreme.
Compare and contrast to your average Arrivée photo, here for instance depicting the James Bond of Audax
(https://78.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_loxybk7QKg1qbxnpgo1_500.jpg)
Although to quote tom_e, what the hell is going on with the lighting and must all riders be permanently grinning
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I started riding AUK events in 2004
Over the years (obviously) some of the older people I knew at the start have downscaled their activities or stopped riding at all.
Also, a new wave of people have joined
The question is though, what qualitative difference does AUK have this last couple of years compared with previous years?
1) this ultra thing. Yes, it is USAian but the work of the late Mike Hall has brought it to Europe as a popular endeavour. Lots of people have heard of it. I've met many younger, fitter people on 300/400/600 rides who are there because they aspire to the TcR ..or have already have had a crack at it
2) bikes and bike riding is generally more popular. This is a fact over the past 5 years. There are various reasons which have been discussed elsewhere, ie Bike to work funding, cost of cars in London, the success of UK riders in sports events etc As there are more people on a bike there are more potential entrants to events, particularly the shorter ones.
3) health and safety vs. the insane danger of cars on the road hasn't managed to put us all off much. Yet. Some people say it's better, some that it's worse
4) equipment like lights and GPS units have made riding a long way a little bit easier
5) shutdown of countryside pubs and cafes due to the ridiculous rise of property prices have made some routes more difficult
As an organiser, I've heard some people say we "should" put on events that would suit fields of hundreds or thousands. The events I do I think of as more "boutique" than mass market. The entries are limited to about 40 because the tiny pub it starts from and the controls won't take more than that. If mass events are the way forward then that's outside of my comfort zone to organise. Finding a big car park and organising catering for loads of people isn't fun.
I'm sure there is a place for the big field events in AUK though
I did LEL in 2005 and again in 2017. The event last time was so much better organised and had a much more exciting international feel - it was a step up
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..the James Bond of Audax
Who has ridden something north of 55 24hr TTs, still holds the Scottish 24hr record, and used to have long articles printed in Cycling (long before it added Weekly to the title). He is of course the marketing man's nightmare.
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AIUI the aim of AUK is to promote long distance cycling - so it can't stick exclusively to what it always has done. There has to be a route in for the 'average' cycling enthusiast, who may be riding sportives, or even reading the cycling magazines / grauniad and is inspired by articles about ultracycling. Some of them will get into audax and become the 'hard riders' / lanterne rouges of the future. Steel frame and carradice or not.
I think this means more 100s and 200s with relatively large fields (100 or so), which in turn means encouraging and facilitating new organisers to get involved.
Looking at the calendar, new events are happening, but there doesn't seem to be much growth in 400s / 600s, which needs to be the next step.
AUK relies on volunteers, so any growth has to widen this. I am dimly aware there are mechanisms for approving organisers - apologies for my ignorance - but AUK doesn't exactly promote this. While I am too busy to even ride much at this stage in my life, if I knew about it, it would be something to consider / aspire to later.
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..the James Bond of Audax
Who has ridden something north of 55 24hr TTs, still holds the Scottish 24hr record, and used to have long articles printed in Cycling (long before it added Weekly to the title). He is of course the marketing man's nightmare.
I had a word with George at the 2015 Mersey Roads 24. Someone was making a documentary about him, and we discussed that a bit. He also said that all the doctors he knew were now cyclists. "Cycling used to be for poor people, now there's bikes costing 5 to £6,000".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lGiaiqZgBk
Attitudes to diversity are interesting. We're not supposed to indulge in 'othering'.
I most value the conversations at 3 in the morning in the middle of nowhere. I have been absorbed in the bubble of riding in fast groups on 200s. But the special moments were when I slipped into what Jim Gresty described as 'CTC mode'. Has anyone heard anything about Jim recently?
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Cycling for poor people?
Maybe in the UK... in 1986 in Italy my dad bought a second hand Sannino with Super Record groupset... it was quite dear, but I still have it!!
(https://i2.wp.com/whosatthewheel.files.wordpress.com/2017/09/sannino.jpg)
It was always all marketing... outside of Arrivee I can't recall the "George" of this world being on the cover of cycling magazines... it was mostly PROs... now with modern clothing even your average sportive rider looks like a PRO, so a great marketing opportunity
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In the 1980s, long before Lottery funding, there were 'Giro Pros'. They were riders on the dole, on their way to a pro career on unemployment benefit, especially in Liverpool. Those were the days of poor cyclists.
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Slightly OT but it was the same in the climbing community...some of the best climbers in the world at the time came out of the Sheffield dole scene. Like cycling it has become rather more sanitised/ glossy as the publishing and gear manufacturers work the commercial opportunities harder. HOWEVER, at its heart it remains a pastime which allows ordinary people with a sense of adventure to do something extraordinary (at whatever level). I believe the same is true of Audax, so I wouldn't fret too much about it becoming 'contaminated' by sportives etc. At the end of the day it will only appeal to a certain sort of person, the more of those we can welcome into the fold (from whatever background) the better IMHO.
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For the sportive riders I know from the club, riding 200k is a MASSIVE undertaking that requires training, usually to a programme, talking a lot about w/kg, probably buying some new gear, and then tapering for the event.
It's what you have to do if you are in the business of winning medals.
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For the sportive riders I know from the club, riding 200k is a MASSIVE undertaking that requires training, usually to a programme, talking a lot about w/kg, probably buying some new gear, and then tapering for the event.
It's what you have to do if you are in the business of winning medals.
Really? I cycled to work for a bit, had a few long rides (none more than 90km). Then turned up and did my first 200km Audax.
In hingsight, perhaps I should have trained a bit...
J
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talking a lot about w/kg
This is where you show how old and out of touch you are... ;)
The key word now is FTP... it's all about the FTP... 8)
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What if the Grauniad piece prompts a spike in demand and current members can't get entries because of the cycling-is-the-new-golf people? Maybe the more experienced could get priority booking? And organisers could be paid to put on new rides with higher entry fees?
(Just thinking aloud, I'm not a member.)
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AUK is in a healthy state as far as I can tell in all places except event organising. This remains a volunteer affair and must take a lot of commitment. I have always been slightly confused by some people who ride Audax who appear to think that they have some sort of ownership of it's soul. Those who have ridden many events over many years can put their own people in, but you all know the attitude I mean. I can remember at one 200km event when I was a lot fitter and faster and said my intention was to ride the event in less than 7h 30m. One rider said I was at the wrong event and people like me were spoiling Audax. I retorted by asking them how long they intended to take and they said about 12 hours. I think I annoyed them for about 30 seconds at the start.
Cycling is broad church and Audax should not change for what it sees as greater popularity. It is a special interest group and should remain as that and except the different people who ride in the manner they choose.
BB
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What if the Grauniad piece prompts a spike in demand and current members can't get entries because of the cycling-is-the-new-golf people? Maybe the more experienced could get priority booking? And organisers could be paid to put on new rides with higher entry fees?
(Just thinking aloud, I'm not a member.)
The most desirable events are LEL, which has priority for members, BCM which is members only, LWL which sells out in minutes, but surprisingly most of the filed is made out by members and the Ditchling Devil, which has a large non members filed, but so far has not been a problem to get an entry.
I suspect events like the Buzzard or the Hot Trod might get a few more entries, but will not see a sudden surge in popularity... it's the full monty TLC events which will take "the brunt"... is that a bad thing? I don't think so... much better to see events selling out in a few days than seeing events that struggle to rack up 30 entries despite being on the calendar for 9 months... sign that things are healthy.
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much better to see events selling out in a few days than seeing events that struggle to rack up 30 entries despite being on the calendar for 9 months... sign that things are healthy.
I agree and would see it as a positive move if AUK took on the notion of investing rather than loss making on some events. Has there been any discussion on attempting to define how AUK can start to define a calendar of supported events? Not sure how this would work with the volunteer network.
BB
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well... the obvious starting point is to reinstate the National 400, maybe followed by a national SR series... a 200 in April, a 300 in May, a 400 in June and a 600 in July
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well... the obvious starting point is to reinstate the National 400, maybe followed by a national SR series... a 200 in April, a 300 in May, a 400 in June and a 600 in July
I like that idea. AUK has wondered what to do with all the money. Put on four, yes only four, funded events during the year. The investment idea being that they are helping build Audax :o :o :o A sensible place to start will be the organisers of the current events and plan how to do this. If this process started today we could see the first event in 2019 and a supported SR series in 2020. Most good concepts take time to mature.
BB
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I like that idea. AUK has wondered what to do with all the money. Put on four, yes only four, funded events during the year. The investment idea being that they are helping build Audax :o :o :o A sensible place to start will be the organisers of the current events and plan how to do this. If this process started today we could see the first event in 2019 and a supported SR series in 2020. Most good concepts take time to mature.
What do you mean by Supported?
The problem with "National" events is that the UK is a big place. Where do you run a national 300? or a National 600? Someone's going to end up with a 600km trek just to get to the start, no matter where you put it. Maybe have a number of National series rides, a northern, southern, etc...
J
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What if the Grauniad piece prompts a spike in demand and current members can't get entries because of the cycling-is-the-new-golf people? Maybe the more experienced could get priority booking? And organisers could be paid to put on new rides with higher entry fees?
(Just thinking aloud, I'm not a member.)
The 2 Scottish events that I've entered this year were both priority entry for 'current AUK members' with entries for non members being released at a later date.
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What if the Grauniad piece prompts a spike in demand and current members can't get entries because of the cycling-is-the-new-golf people? Maybe the more experienced could get priority booking? And organisers could be paid to put on new rides with higher entry fees?
(Just thinking aloud, I'm not a member.)
already happened, mate. Entering the Byran Chapman requires lightning reflexes and has done for 3 or 4 years now
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For the sportive riders I know from the club, riding 200k is a MASSIVE undertaking that requires training, usually to a programme, talking a lot about w/kg, probably buying some new gear, and then tapering for the event.
It's what you have to do if you are in the business of winning medals.
Really? I cycled to work for a bit, had a few long rides (none more than 90km). Then turned up and did my first 200km Audax.
Yeah, but did you win?
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well... the obvious starting point is to reinstate the National 400, maybe followed by a national SR series... a 200 in April, a 300 in May, a 400 in June and a 600 in July
I like that idea. AUK has wondered what to do with all the money. Put on four, yes only four, funded events during the year. The investment idea being that they are helping build Audax :o :o :o A sensible place to start will be the organisers of the current events and plan how to do this. If this process started today we could see the first event in 2019 and a supported SR series in 2020. Most good concepts take time to mature.
BB
I'm sure if you want to do this you could devise a convincing business plan, persuade the AUK board, get into debt front-loading the organisation, spend every evening on the phone talking to potential volunteers and then eventually run it and wonder why people complained about the price
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already happened, mate. Entering the Byran Chapman requires lightning reflexes and has done for 3 or 4 years now
That's a consequence of growing membership.
To be fair, you sign a cheque, buy a few stamps... write addresses on two envelopes (why two BTW?) and send everything... it took me about 10 minutes and as far as I know folks who waited 3 weeks to send their form still got an entry...
It's more a case of some older members being used to have 6 months to sort out an envelope and a cheque... ;D
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That's a consequence of growing membership.
To be fair, you sign a cheque, buy a few stamps... write addresses on two envelopes (why two BTW?) and send everything... it took me about 10 minutes and as far as I know folks who waited 3 weeks to send their form still got an entry...
It's more a case of some older members being used to have 6 months to sort out an envelope and a cheque... ;D
What's a cheque?
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What's a cheque?
Something you use for entering the kind of audaxes where you know you won't be getting a GPX of the route.
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What's a cheque?
Something you use for entering the kind of audaxes where you know you won't be getting a GPX of the route.
You owe me a new keyboard :p
/me wanders off to refill drink.
J
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What if the Grauniad piece prompts a spike in demand and current members can't get entries because of the cycling-is-the-new-golf people? Maybe the more experienced could get priority booking? And organisers could be paid to put on new rides with higher entry fees?
(Just thinking aloud, I'm not a member.)
already happened, mate. Entering the Byran Chapman requires lightning reflexes and has done for 3 or 4 years now
I'm going to write some sniping software to enter it programmatically. :)
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well... the obvious starting point is to reinstate the National 400, maybe followed by a national SR series... a 200 in April, a 300 in May, a 400 in June and a 600 in July
I like that idea. AUK has wondered what to do with all the money. Put on four, yes only four, funded events during the year. The investment idea being that they are helping build Audax :o :o :o A sensible place to start will be the organisers of the current events and plan how to do this. If this process started today we could see the first event in 2019 and a supported SR series in 2020. Most good concepts take time to mature.
BB
I'm sure if you want to do this you could devise a convincing business plan, persuade the AUK board, get into debt front-loading the organisation, spend every evening on the phone talking to potential volunteers and then eventually run it and wonder why people complained about the price
Precisely so.
Some find it difficult to grasp that AUK doesn't run, events. Organisers do. AUK simply provides an umbrella of administrative infrastructure support.
AUK has been asking Orgs to submit applications to run national events for several years now and the well of volunteers has quickly run dry. The question is why.
It's also worth noting that by and large Orgs running the larger higher profile/TLC events (recurring and one-off) have done so very sucessfully without AUK support.
So the question is what exactly is AUK supposed to be investing in, what is it intended to achieve, and how will it be measured?
AUK could commission Orgs/Staffers to run events but in practice that would likely result in AUK paying "the great and the good" of the Org community to do what they do anyway, and potentially prove a very expensive and divisive slope for what is putatively a volunteer led organisation.
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What if the Grauniad piece prompts a spike in demand and current members can't get entries because of the cycling-is-the-new-golf people? Maybe the more experienced could get priority booking? And organisers could be paid to put on new rides with higher entry fees?
(Just thinking aloud, I'm not a member.)
already happened, mate. Entering the Byran Chapman requires lightning reflexes and has done for 3 or 4 years now
I'm going to write some sniping software to enter it programmatically. :)
You're gonna get a robot to write out a cheque for you and then run it to the post box with a 1st class stamp ? impressive!
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The problem with "National" events is that the UK is a big place. Where do you run a national 300? or a National 600? Someone's going to end up with a 600km trek just to get to the start, no matter where you put it.
The national 400 used to move about, and benefit from variety as far as i could see (on my wish list, never got beyond DNS) ... you can't please all the people all the time applies.
Sent from my LG-H850 using Tapatalk
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The problem with "National" events is that the UK is a big place. Where do you run a national 300? or a National 600? Someone's going to end up with a 600km trek just to get to the start, no matter where you put it.
The national 400 used to move about, and benefit from variety as far as i could see (on my wish list, never got beyond DNS) ... you can't please all the people all the time applies.
Sent from my LG-H850 using Tapatalk
and if there were a national series it could be spread each year, one in south england, one in north england, one in wales and one in scotland. which gives everyone reasonable access to one or even two events and if anyone wanted to complete the series it would encourage people travelling to different parts of the country expanding their horizons.
BUT
we come back to the issues of auk as an entity not really existing with the resources to do anything, events are run by organisers, not some central body, and even if the central body did do something we are really just moving the burden on to other volunteers.
also does anyone really need TLC on a 200?
What auk should be doing is looking to assist/train new organisers run events as well as underwriting events run by organiser so no volunteer is ever at risk of losing financially for running events
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To a point, AUK *is* happy to underwrite events.
We mention it, but probably not loudly enough; we'd rather know in advance if you'd like us to do it (though we'd probably be sympathetic to a retrospective request); and we'd expect to see, if not a business plan, then at least a realistic take on costs.
In other words, if you plan a ride that incurs a grand of hall hire and catering costs but only appeals to ten of your mates, and you'd like us to pick up the tab, we'll invite you to get tae fuckreconsider, but we would not want an organiser who'd planned an event with similar costs and an expected field of a hundred, that gets wiped out by a fortnight's monsoon, to end up out of pocket because of nonrefundable expenses.
What we haven't done AFAIK is to pick up costs upfront, with the expectation of repayment from entry fees. I think we'd consider it - but it would have to be justified.
As for assistance/training for new organisers, every new organiser has to be mentored by an experienced one for their first event(s), and the organiser's handbook is fairly helpful. It's not *that* obvious on the website - it's behind the Organisers/Organising an event link - but it's available to everyone, not even restricted to members let alone to existing organisers.
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also does anyone really need TLC on a 200?
I would expect a National 200 to funnel 2-300 entires at the very least... so yes, you do need a couple of manned controls to avoid people queuing half an hour for a receipt. The alternative is to route it through a couple of large towns with loads of options, but even there, in my experience we all end up in the same places. At LWL in Tewkesbury we pretty much all ended up at Greggs.
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The remit of AUK is to promote long distance cycling. I suppose one conception of that is to provide a friendlier, more community-based and cheaper alternative to sportives.
I'd tend to the view that there's lots of long distance cycling opportunities available outside Audax, and that AUK should hold onto its cash to promote long distance cycling when it's not flavour of the month.
There's a tendency to follow the strategies that result from funding with strings attached, AUK doesn't rely on that sort of money.
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The remit of AUK is to promote long distance cycling. I suppose one conception of that is to provide a friendlier, more community-based and cheaper alternative to sportives.
I'd tend to the view that there's lots of long distance cycling opportunities available outside Audax, and that AUK should hold onto its cash to promote long distance cycling when it's not flavour of the month.
There's a tendency to follow the strategies that result from funding with strings attached, AUK doesn't rely on that sort of money.
I thought we were discussing meeting growing demand for audax rides, this means more rides so more organisers or larger fields with potentually more expensive controls.
You seem to be advocating a laissez faire approach relying on sportives getting longer and tougher to meet the demand.
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I think what would really help boosting numbers would be an interactive events calendar. Currently, the information provided on the event page is basic and inconsistent... sometimes there is a link to a RidewithGPS file, sometimes you can download a GPX, other times there is none of that and only a list of the controls.
If I don't know where Honiton is, I am probably unlikely to be attracted to enter a ride from a place I have never heard of, going through controls I have never heard about... however, a simple map of the route would give me a quick idea of whether it makes sense for me to investigate further.
This is especially true since most events start from hamlets very few folks have ever heard about... I suspect nobody knows where Upton Magna is, unless you have been there for one of Undulates events... Belbroughton anyone? Ponteland? Meopham?
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What is stopping you from typing 'Honiton' into Google maps??
I think you might be one step ahead of the real issue...which is getting people to the AUK website in the first place.
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I think what would really help boosting numbers would be an interactive events calendar.
So learn PHP and make it happen. Yeah I know everyone uses Node now but you've got to talk to the existing backend
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What is the increased demand for?
Unsupported, self-navigated rides?
Longer rides for tough Sportif riders?
Something else?
DIY by GPS allows anyone to do a long ride anywhere. No controllers needed, lower organiser input(?), true to the original audacity ethos.
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The remit of AUK is to promote long distance cycling. I suppose one conception of that is to provide a friendlier, more community-based and cheaper alternative to sportives.
I'd tend to the view that there's lots of long distance cycling opportunities available outside Audax, and that AUK should hold onto its cash to promote long distance cycling when it's not flavour of the month.
There's a tendency to follow the strategies that result from funding with strings attached, AUK doesn't rely on that sort of money.
I thought we were discussing meeting growing demand for audax rides, this means more rides so more organisers or larger fields with potentually more expensive controls.
You seem to be advocating a laissez faire approach relying on sportives getting longer and tougher to meet the demand.
They seem to be evolving, I heard of 'Chase the Sun' from LEL participants.
https://www.chasethesun.org/join-in
If there's a healthy long distance scene, then AUK's remit is fulfilled. The crunch comes with PBP qualification.
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If there's a healthy long distance scene, then AUK's remit is fulfilled. The crunch comes with PBP qualification.
What is the increased demand for?
Presumably to recruit the next generation to keep things as they are while long distance cycling grows elsewhere :facepalm:
Fortunately, as noted up thread, things slowly move forward
(I give up. I'll go and look at some curly lugs on the interwebs ;D)
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AUK's USP is validation, and that's only really needed for PBP. If I wished to qualify next year I'd only have a supported control at Mytholmroyd on the Three/Two Coasts. The other rides around here are shoestring affairs.
Talk of heavily-catered rides is largely a London thing, where there are other long-distance offers catering for a growing market. So discussion of cash advances is largely a metropolitan issue.
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also does anyone really need TLC on a 200?
Yes, lots of people new to Audaxing would benefit from it. Sure they may not get it on the next ride but it's not that much of a step down to the average Audax control standard.
Anyone who has done a bunch of 200s (or longer) is unlikely to need as much TLC.
As others have said, if you don't get new blood coming in then you're going to be shy of suitable volunteers in 10/20/30 years time.
I would expect a National 200 to funnel 2-300 entires at the very least...
Why aim so low? A 200km Audax that was running today (Ditchling Devil) had more than those numbers riding (it being sunny helped, it being in London also helps). I know the exact number of entrants and starters but I'm not going to steal the org's thunder.
This ride is definitely the upper end of Audax TLC though (although I'm not saying it's at the limit of what is possible). Free snacks at the start, food at the 50km and 100km controls included too.
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AUK's USP is validation
Talk of heavily-catered rides is largely a London thing
First one yes, you are joining something. Why ride TTs. Because they are times and you know where you stand.
It is only a London thing because that is where the population is. Put a great ride on in the North and that requirement would migrate.
Don't throw all in for supporting any type of long distance cycling. AUK has a USP do not under sell it.
BB
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If there's a healthy long distance scene, then AUK's remit is fulfilled. The crunch comes with PBP qualification.
What is the increased demand for?
Presumably to recruit the next generation to keep things as they are while long distance cycling grows elsewhere :facepalm:
Fortunately, as noted up thread, things slowly move forward
(I give up. I'll go and look at some curly lugs on the interwebs ;D)
Hmmm, bit of confusion there: long distance cycling is growing elsewhere - is this impacting on Audax negatively? It doesn't seem to be from what has been posted - the opposite in fact.
Maybe the new carbon biked fast riders don't do volunteering and that is the nub of the problem?
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Maybe the new carbon biked fast riders don't do volunteering and that is the nub of the problem?
We live in a consumer economy. Who provides?
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Maybe the new carbon biked fast riders don't do volunteering and that is the nub of the problem?
We won't know the answer to that for a while. Presumably the carbon-biked riders are no different to the young, fast riders of years past (on equally bling bikes of the day). Some of them notched down the competitive riding, turned to endurance events as they got older and became the backbone of AUK, including organising. Who's to say that pattern won't be repeated.
One thing's for sure - the more cyclists (of all varieties) that become aware of audax, the more hope for the future.
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Maybe the new carbon biked fast riders don't do volunteering and that is the nub of the problem?
We live in a consumer economy. Who provides?
AUK pay volunteers?
What do you think...?
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It occurs to me that AUK should combine forces with whatever bodies are involved in the resurgence of cake baking in this country. If cycling is the new golf, baking must be the new...something. I bet lots of amateur bakers would love to share their wares on a pasting table in a bus shelter. Write to Sandi Toksvig.
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Maybe the new carbon biked fast riders don't do volunteering and that is the nub of the problem?
We won't know the answer to that for a while. Presumably the carbon-biked riders are no different to the young, fast riders of years past (on equally bling bikes of the day). Some of them notched down the competitive riding, turned to endurance events as they got older and became the backbone of AUK, including organising. Who's to say that pattern won't be repeated.
One thing's for sure - the more cyclists (of all varieties) that become aware of audax, the more hope for the future.
If the desire is for growth, then yes, more cyclists are needed. If the desire is to ensure the future of Audax, then maybe only replacement cyclists are needed.
Is there any tracking of the conversion of rider to violunteer to organisers, and checking what happens against an expected or hoped for organising in the future.
Is there any analysis of number of riders per event vs facilities required vs no of volunteers needed, and if so, is this they compared against expected or desired growth in fulfilling growth demand?
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Many of the bling carbon brigade I spoke to today (I actually managed to keep up with some of them!) on the Ditchling Devil were really impressed with the event (the weather may have played a small part), pointing out it was way, way cheaper than any of the sportives that are their normal habitat - and friendlier.
Providing TLC 200's is certainly one way of luring them into the fold.
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Maybe the new carbon biked fast riders don't do volunteering and that is the nub of the problem?
Momentarily took offence - I have a carbon bike but I volunteer. Then I noticed the “fast”. As you were.
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Many of the bling carbon brigade I spoke to today (I actually managed to keep up with some of them!) on the Ditchling Devil were really impressed with the event (the weather may have played a small part), pointing out it was way, way cheaper than any of the sportives that are their normal habitat - and friendlier.
Providing TLC 200's is certainly one way of luring them into the fold.
What happens when they finish too soon? Maybe nobody knows. Schrodinger's Cat etc.
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What happens when they finish too soon? Maybe nobody knows. Schrodinger's Cat etc.
Now we're getting into Johnny Rotten's "5 minutes" territory.
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What happens when they finish too soon? Maybe nobody knows. Schrodinger's Cat etc.
I once rode a (National) 400 where a group of 11 of us finished 10 minutes before the finish control was due to open. (Yes it was a very flat route - Lincs/Norfolk) The group included 4 serving AUK Committee members at that time, one of them is the current LRM president.
We had a good idea that the finish controller, when he turned up, would be a 'blazer' type and hot on the rules. When we saw his car approaching we all hid in the bushes until he had unlocked the hall and disappeared inside. Then we noisily 'arrived'.
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well... the obvious starting point is to reinstate the National 400
It's not been un-instated as far as can tell, just that nobody wants to put it on. I plan to run a 400 next season, but it will be a case of find your own controls from my suggestions of available cafes, shops and petrol stations.
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well... the obvious starting point is to reinstate the National 400
It's not been un-instated as far as can tell, just that nobody wants to put it on. I plan to run a 400 next season, but it will be a case of find your own controls from my suggestions of available cafes, shops and petrol stations.
Will that be the Llanfair 400, as in 2015?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwTSO8OMaAk
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well... the obvious starting point is to reinstate the National 400
It's not been un-instated as far as can tell, just that nobody wants to put it on. I plan to run a 400 next season, but it will be a case of find your own controls from my suggestions of available cafes, shops and petrol stations.
Will that be the Llanfair 400, as in 2015?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwTSO8OMaAk
Looks very nice, but how can you possibly go to Llandudno and NOT go up the Great Orme? :o
As far as I am concerned, it's one of the top ten roads in the land and should never be missed!!
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A number of comments made concerning route sheets that I thought I'd show one of my typical 'Cue Sheets' for a 200K perm - and I do not provide GPS coordinates. If a rider can't read a sheet, then they are out of luck.
(This is taken from an Excel sheet and seems to be all over the place when copied and pasted, but I hope you get the idea of what is usually provided for RUSA rides - or mine anyway)
(Revised 29 Nov) Sealy - La Grange 200K Perm #1319
Control Miles Where Cue
START: Shell Station, Junction Hwy 36/FM1094
Sealy - 5:00 AM - 11:00 PM
CONTROL 1 0 Sealy Shell Station - Go west on FM 1094
1.7 Turn left onto FM 2187
6.1 Turn left onto Kulow Road
13.3 Turn right onto Bernardo Road
15.7 Turn right onto Eagle Lake Road
CONTROL 2 16.7 Bernardo INFO CONTROL
Cross FM 949 onto New Ulm Road
19.6 Turn left onto Cat Spring Road
21.3 Turn right onto Zimmerscheidt Road
23.4 Turn right onto Weishuhn Road (becomes Walnut St.)
30.9 Turn left onto FM 1094
31.2 Turn left onto FM 109
CONTROL 3 31.3 New Ulm Hometown Store FM 109 - 5:00 AM to 9:00 PM daily except Sunday
Go west on FM 109
35.1 Frelsburg Go straight onto FM 1291
35.8 Turn left onto Ellinger Road
41.3 Turn right onto Brushy Road
42.8 Becomes Ross Prairie Church Road
45.1 Fayetteville Through town and onto TX 159
53.3 Turn left to stay on TX 159
CONTROL 4 59.2 Shell Service Station cnr TX71. 24 Hours
Go back the way you came
65.2 Veer right to stay on TX 159
75.1 Turn left onto Roznov Road
77.7 Turn left onto FM 1291
79.7 Turn right onto FM 237S
CONTROL 5 90.3 Fayetteville Fayetteville Store: Corner Scott (FM1291)/E.Main St.
Turn right onto E. Main then immediately left onto Scott/FM 1291
100.4 Frelsburg Go straight onto FM 109
104.3 New Ulm Turn right onto FM 1094
104.7 Turn right onto Bernard Road. Becomes Bostik Road
114.1 Turn left onto Cat Spring Road
117.7 Cross FM 949. Stay on Cat Spring Road
119.1 Turn left onto Sealy Road. Becomes Kulow Road
124.3 Turn right onto FM 2187
128.5 Turn right onto FM 1094
CONTROL 7 130.3 Sealy Shell Station Junction Hwy 36/FM1094
5:00 AM - 11:00 PM
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A number of comments made concerning route sheets that I thought I'd show one of my typical 'Cue Sheets' for a 200K perm - and I do not provide GPS coordinates. If a rider can't read a sheet, then they are out of luck.
And this is to make a point or you can't be bothered to spend 15 minutes on RidewithGPS to produce a GPX track? ::-)
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A number of comments made concerning route sheets that I thought I'd show one of my typical 'Cue Sheets' for a 200K perm - and I do not provide GPS coordinates. If a rider can't read a sheet, then they are out of luck.
And this is to make a point or you can't be bothered to spend 15 minutes on RidewithGPS to produce a GPX track? ::-)
Or give someone a beer/coffee to do it for you...
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I don't like being referred to as an Ultra Cyclist
It's an American term, I believe.
Usually used to refer to time trial racers. At the last Bessies Creek 24 event, the winner of the 515 mile race completed it in 1 day, 1 hour and 46 minutes, and that is who we refer to as an 'Ultra Cyclist'.
Randonnee riders are called Randonneurs.
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On the rare event that I do an audax without a gpx file, practically what I generally end up doing is making my own, but it won't follow every turn, but will simply be my own choice of route between the controls (including infos).
That will probably be the same as the organisers route in parts, but who knows?
I'm better at choosing a perfectly acceptable new route between the controls than I am at translating an existing one.
I know it's a perennial debate but personally the reason I don't use route sheets is it takes me too long to scan to where I'm up to on it, time I'm not looking where I'm going, thus less safe. Yeah, yeah, I know it's a skill to be acquired, but then so is starting a fire with sticks.
I don't expect the organiser to provide a gpx, but if they don't I might just not be riding the route they intended.
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My easy way of plotting from a routesheet is to firstly create the shortest track between controls. Then look at the routesheet to check where the instructions fit and drag the track as necessary. It's a while since I've had to do it (well. last year in fact), but not hard or time-consuming.
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A number of comments made concerning route sheets that I thought I'd show one of my typical 'Cue Sheets' for a 200K perm - and I do not provide GPS coordinates. If a rider can't read a sheet, then they are out of luck.
And this is to make a point or you can't be bothered to spend 15 minutes on RidewithGPS to produce a GPX track? ::-)
Having up to 100 riders repeating labour on rideGPS is just a waste of everyone's time.
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And this is to make a point or you can't be bothered to spend 15 minutes on RidewithGPS to produce a GPX track?
Is there a reason you feel you have to be so rude?
As a matter of fact, I create the route on RidewithGPS.
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And this is to make a point or you can't be bothered to spend 15 minutes on RidewithGPS to produce a GPX track?
Is there a reason you feel you have to be so rude?
As a matter of fact, I create the route on RidewithGPS.
And having created the route on RWGPS, you then choose not to make the GPX available to riders?
Like whosatthewheel, I'd be curious as to whether this is to make a point (and if so what?), or for some other reason.
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It occurs to me that AUK should combine forces with whatever bodies are involved in the resurgence of cake baking in this country. If cycling is the new golf, baking must be the new...something. I bet lots of amateur bakers would love to share their wares on a pasting table in a bus shelter. Write to Sandi Toksvig.
This is essentially the model manotea follows with the catering for the London Ditchling Devil (a fine example of the TLC-heavy 200s Wycombewheeler was questioning up there^^^ somewhere): find a hall; invite the ladies1 of the local WI or of the hall committee to provide a sufficiency of cakes to satisfy 400 hungry audaxers; cross their palms with silver.
Outsourcing works, kids, outsourcing works.
1: Observation, not sexism. At Chiddingfold, home of the cake, I don't think there was a male volunteer to be seen apart from the controllers. At Highbrook (bacon and egg rolls and shop-bought cakes (the horror!)), catering seemed still to be a female role, with the men having arrogated to themselves a supervisory function.
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It's someone from a country near Slovakia.
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And this is to make a point or you can't be bothered to spend 15 minutes on RidewithGPS to produce a GPX track?
Is there a reason you feel you have to be so rude?
As a matter of fact, I create the route on RidewithGPS.
Didn't mean to be rude, but from your tone, it would appear you have a "thing" against GPX files and it would be interesting to know why you think a set of printed instructions is superior to what in essence is the equivalent in digital format.
My impression (and I might be wrong on this) is that the vast majority of people doing Perms and DIY rely on GPX files for navigation, so you might be missing a trick
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Maybe the new carbon biked fast riders don't do volunteering and that is the nub of the problem?
I had 14 volunteers helping out on LWL - more than a couple could be mistaken for 'new carbon biked fast riders'. People are people regardless of the bikes they ride or the tailoring of their lycra from what I see.
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Maybe the new carbon biked fast riders don't do volunteering and that is the nub of the problem?
I had 14 volunteers helping out on LWL - more than a couple could be mistaken for 'new carbon biked fast riders'. People are people regardless of the bikes they ride or the tailoring of their lycra from what I see.
Tongue in cheek as opposed to my later questions.
The thrust of the thread appears to be that other forms of long distance riding are growing and Audax needs to grow as well. Because.
Like any growth there will be an end; where is that end?
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As an occasional business traveller to Houston, I have a stack of similar XLS spreadsheet cue sheets which I got from the Houston Randonneurs. They were written by a Bob Riggs. To help with visualisation, they all have a smallish screenshot of some mapping program with the route highlighted. But the image is too low resolution to use it as a primary navigation tool; rather it's just to give an overall indication of where it goes.
I really don't mind the org not providing a GPX, as I quite like making my own as it gives a feel for the route as you study the maps.
If one is provided, I'd certainly load it up into mapsource and look at it, but I'd never use it unlooked-at.
But I do have to admit screwing it up once, because the grid of roads in Texas are not always surfaced.
This resulted in me taking a rental S-works Venge Vias for some comedey off-roading!
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=10.msg2162727#msg2162727
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I really don't mind the org not providing a GPX, as I quite like making my own as it gives a feel for the route as you study the maps.
This. I have done rides blindly following someone elses gpx before and found it rather a rather empty experience.
Also, on the technical side, depending on what program was used to generate the gpx will greatly affect the quality of the trace. I gather older gps devices benefitted from a lower point-count on a .gpx, but for a modern device like a Wahoo you can go to town and have a high res trace with stacks of supplementary cues inputted.
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I'll hold off on comments until the fabled new AUK website appears.
A major step (which I believe it will help deal with) would be to be able to see upcoming events on a map (with an outline of where they go) rather than just vague descriptions or lists of control towns (which many people can't mentally visualise) or a pin dropped at the postcode of the organiser's home address.
I would love to be able to see outline maps (not detailed enough for route stealing) and elevation profiles for all rides (both calendar events and perms).
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In 2015, Alan, one of the Elliptigo riders, commented that there was a regional difference in attitudes to route-finding. With less reliance on GPS in the North. https://youtu.be/6Ark0eWBvJk?t=141
That might be the reason that some organisers leave the participants to sort out their own GPX files. The extreme examples are the rides in Northern Scotland, where few instructions are needed.
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To be fair I think a lot of that info is already on the website - it's just not presented in the most obvious way. For example you can clearly tell if a route is going to be hilly from its listing in the calendar http://www.aukweb.net/events/ (http://www.aukweb.net/events/), from how its marked as AA3, AA5 etc (if it's not AA, riders should be informed that the ride will be 1,000m of elevation or less). So in my view a consulting web designer has all the data needed, it'd just help if it was rendered in a more obviously intelligible way. For example it isn't clear to an observer what a 'D' or 'A' or 'U' means in red. Though to be fair this is explained when you click on the event's listing.
Maybe if you 'hover over' an event on this screen, it could show the outline route.
I do like the actual colour scheme of the AUK website as it fits in quite well with the brevet cards.
So in sum I think the website is pretty good in terms of the available data but a rethink of how the info is rendered to the user would be a great idea, as well as a think through of how it works on mobile/tablet.
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I am a cycle tourist, every ride is a tour. Audax was introduced to me as being like the CTC rides I'd been doing just with more miles and less cafe. I've ridden about half a dozen a year, mostly 200s, in the twenty years since in that frame of mind and seen a lot of the country doing so, all good. The route is everything, I might need to work out how to get there and often where to stay, I don't even look unless the route appeals. I'm well catered for, there's always more rides I'd like to do than time to do them. Us tourists - beard and sandals in spirit of not attire - have always been a minority, for most of the years I've ridden there would be a few of us, stopping to look at anything of interest, take in the scenery and a few photos, get a bit lost, linger in the cafes, not consider deviating from the route because another was faster, take pride in getting close to the maximum time. Now I'm mostly riding alone.
I don't see this increased diversity being talked about, I see an increasingly uniform group, a different type of rider, bike, clothing, lighting and luggage* compared to a few years ago, a bigger group but a smaller percentage outside that current norm. I'm sure there are exceptions, I haven't ridden that many, from the five I've done this year I could write a paragraph that 90% of riders would conform to.
Does it matter? In my introduction to Audax was also the emphasis on riding your own ride and I don't mind riding alone most of the time, though sometimes I'd prefer the choice. How welcoming and cliquey a group feels does vary from event to event, but I've never felt unwelcome. It's just sometimes a feeling of no longer being part of it - at an overnight control I was last rider in and the controller said he was getting worried about me, I found myself apologising for causing concern, I was over three hours inside the control cut off with 80 km to go - I'm sometimes asked by the organiser at the start if I've done one of these before - these things never used to happen. There may come a point where I feel they're no longer for me, maybe that's something those I used to meet have already concluded.
There's plenty of events and plenty of riders so you'd have to say the current state is good. Except, what of the future? If everyone prefers the main road and complains about the state of some country lanes, when does that become the route? If time is everything when will the quality but a bit slow cafe stop being the control? When does the expectation of accurate GPX lead to less effort in creating a quality route sheet? If no one is interested in the points of interest along the way, when do they stop being highlighted? At that point it's bells and clogs for me.
* Trendsetter me - it was pointed out decades ago how dorky a top tube bag was on anything other than a triathlon bike so I took mine off, now it's part of the uniform.
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I really don't mind the org not providing a GPX, as I quite like making my own as it gives a feel for the route as you study the maps.
If one is provided, I'd certainly load it up into mapsource and look at it, but I'd never use it unlooked-at.
Same here. In fact, I often make my own GPX track even if the organiser has supplied one.
At the very least, I'll load a supplied track into RWGPS (or more likely gpxeditor, now I've learned about that excellent site) so I can get an overview of where a route goes on the map. And now I know about waypoints, I've started using gpxeditor to create waypoints for controls and other POIs - I may not have been physically well prepared for the West Highlands ride, but I'm sure that my extensive planning of the practical side of things is the main reason I was able to complete it.
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Will that be the Llanfair 400, as in 2015?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwTSO8OMaAk
Looks very nice, but how can you possibly go to Llandudno and NOT go up the Great Orme? :o
As far as I am concerned, it's one of the top ten roads in the land and should never be missed!!
Well, it's a non-mandatory route so the Great Orme is just sitting there waiting for any takers. To be fair, Ty Gwyn Road is a bit of a stinker without the matter of 400kms as well. Likewise I could have put in the climb to Gwaenysgor from Prestatyn, but I know of people who avoid that as a descent when it features on the Clwydian 200; at something approaching 1 in 3 it's just too ridiculous.
I already include an optional climb over Sychnant which gives a great descent into Dwygyfylchi, a place with altogether too few vowels for English eyes.
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For Comparison, here's the route sheet for the first 200 I did.
(http://photos.quixotic.eu/misc/Screenshot_20180605-134057.png)
There is also a very good GPX.
J
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Will that be the Llanfair 400, as in 2015?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwTSO8OMaAk
Looks very nice, but how can you possibly go to Llandudno and NOT go up the Great Orme? :o
As far as I am concerned, it's one of the top ten roads in the land and should never be missed!!
Well, it's a non-mandatory route so the Great Orme is just sitting there waiting for any takers. To be fair, Ty Gwyn Road is a bit of a stinker without the matter of 400kms as well. Likewise I could have put in the climb to Gwaenysgor from Prestatyn, but I know of people who avoid that as a descent when it features on the Clwydian 200; at something approaching 1 in 3 it's just too ridiculous.
I already include an optional climb over Sychnant which gives a great descent into Dwygyfylchi, a place with altogether too few vowels for English eyes.
I would include the Great Orme in the GPX file, most people will not question it and just go up it and afterwards will be glad they did. Some will question it and avoid it, but typically it will be the tail end of the ride, those who notoriously try to "cut out climbs" to make the controls in time, which is fair enough.
You could always have an info control at the lighthouse, to make it more mandatory
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Maybe the new carbon biked fast riders don't do volunteering and that is the nub of the problem?
Momentarily took offence - I have a carbon bike but I volunteer. Then I noticed the “fast”. As you were.
I rode the 2017 LEL on a carbon bike. I also volunteered Thursday, Friday and Saturday and turned up on Thursday to help at the finish.
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Will that be the Llanfair 400, as in 2015?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwTSO8OMaAk
Looks very nice, but how can you possibly go to Llandudno and NOT go up the Great Orme? :o
As far as I am concerned, it's one of the top ten roads in the land and should never be missed!!
Well, it's a non-mandatory route so the Great Orme is just sitting there waiting for any takers. To be fair, Ty Gwyn Road is a bit of a stinker without the matter of 400kms as well. Likewise I could have put in the climb to Gwaenysgor from Prestatyn, but I know of people who avoid that as a descent when it features on the Clwydian 200; at something approaching 1 in 3 it's just too ridiculous.
I already include an optional climb over Sychnant which gives a great descent into Dwygyfylchi, a place with altogether too few vowels for English eyes.
I don't remember going to Llandudno on that ride, because I only went as far as Penrhyn Bay, as per the route sheet. Not my GPS track, as I don't use one. https://ridewithgps.com/trips/4666280
PBP qualifiers take place earlier in the year than I'd like, so the idea of extending them in any way doesn't appeal. I can do any amount of gratuitous climbing locally, that's one of the differences of cycling in the North.
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PBP qualifiers take place earlier in the year than I'd like, so the idea of extending them in any way doesn't appeal. I can do any amount of gratuitous climbing locally, that's one of the differences of cycling in the North.
Personally, I think there is way too much emphasis on PBP. I appreciate that AUK sends a few hundred members to PBP, but that also means that there are a few thousand members who do not do PBP.
The Audax world should not revolve around PBP and LEL... personally I have zero desire to do PBP, but I might be tempted by Llanfair 400 and having done the coastal portion of that route in other events, I think the Great Orme would be the icing on the cake.
I think a route should be as good as it can possibly be and if that means an extra 150 mt of ascent or an extra 4-5 km, then so be it. Someone aiming to do 1200 km shouldn't be put off by that
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Maybe the new carbon biked fast riders don't do volunteering and that is the nub of the problem?
Momentarily took offence - I have a carbon bike but I volunteer. Then I noticed the “fast”. As you were.
I rode the 2017 LEL on a carbon bike. I also volunteered Thursday, Friday and Saturday and turned up on Thursday to help at the finish.
Had your steel bike cracked?
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PBP qualifiers take place earlier in the year than I'd like, so the idea of extending them in any way doesn't appeal. I can do any amount of gratuitous climbing locally, that's one of the differences of cycling in the North.
Personally, I think there is way too much emphasis on PBP. I appreciate that AUK sends a few hundred members to PBP, but that also means that there are a few thousand members who do not do PBP.
The Audax world should not revolve around PBP and LEL... personally I have zero desire to do PBP, but I might be tempted by Llanfair 400 and having done the coastal portion of that route in other events, I think the Great Orme would be the icing on the cake.
I think a route should be as good as it can possibly be and if that means an extra 150 mt of ascent or an extra 4-5 km, then so be it. Someone aiming to do 1200 km shouldn't be put off by that
The Llanfair 400 had 42 finishers in 2017, and 72 in 2015, a PBP year. That holds true for the other BRM qualifying rides. So any emphasis on catering for larger numbers is skewed by PBP.
TLC events such as the Windsor-Chester-Windsor cater for the additional demand generated by PBP. The qualifying series' constitute a de-facto set of regional ('National Series'). Unfortunately, they are over by the end of June, and that skews the season. That makes sense in Southern Europe, as it's very hot in July and early August. It also made sense in order to make time to process PBP entries.
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Personally, I think there is way too much emphasis on PBP. I appreciate that AUK sends a few hundred members to PBP, but that also means that there are a few thousand members who do not do PBP.
AUK was founded so that UK riders could take part in PBP. From the AUK website :-
"In order that British cyclists could qualify for future PBPs, the Windsor-Chester-Windsor 600 km was instituted and AUK was formed, the eagle logo of this event eventually becoming the AUK logo. John Nicholas, took responsibility as Secretary and Correspondant of ACP, charged with the task of ensuring that UK events complied with ACP regulations, and Steve Nicholas became the first Treasurer. The Brevets de Randonneurs Francais became Brevets de Randonneurs Européens. In each country the club that initiated the Brevets became responsible for those events and a member of les Randonneurs Européens, an informal federation that met after each PBP. "
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Personally, I think there is way too much emphasis on PBP. I appreciate that AUK sends a few hundred members to PBP, but that also means that there are a few thousand members who do not do PBP.
AUK was founded so that UK riders could take part in PBP. From the AUK website :-
"In order that British cyclists could qualify for future PBPs, the Windsor-Chester-Windsor 600 km was instituted and AUK was formed, the eagle logo of this event eventually becoming the AUK logo. John Nicholas, took responsibility as Secretary and Correspondant of ACP, charged with the task of ensuring that UK events complied with ACP regulations, and Steve Nicholas became the first Treasurer. The Brevets de Randonneurs Francais became Brevets de Randonneurs Européens. In each country the club that initiated the Brevets became responsible for those events and a member of les Randonneurs Européens, an informal federation that met after each PBP. "
I agree... quoting the originis of AUK is all very well but things have moved on somewhat over the last 40 years.
Whilst affections for PBP linger amongst Francophils and in terms of participation, PBP dwarfs other events, it is now just one international event amongst many, many of which provide similar or better rider support and far more interesting routes. For its part, AUK can lay claim to having the richest set of events and awards of any of the "audaxing nations", something evidenced by overseas riders joining AUK and/or coming to the UK to participate in them.
So yes, it's not all about PBP, SanFed, French Diagonoles, whatev.
Heresy, I know, but there it is...
Well, that's me off the ACP Christmas Card list...
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The graph of SRs by year on the AUK website shows the impact of PBP, I'll be interested to see if that rising trend continues next year.
http://www.aukweb.net/results/statistics/detail/activitysr/
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The graph of SRs by year on the AUK website shows the impact of PBP, I'll be interested to see if that rising trend continues next year.
http://www.aukweb.net/results/statistics/detail/activitysr/
It would be amazing if it didn't, as interest in AUK events is growing and new AUKs inevitably get sucked into the 'must qualify for PBP' hype, whether they go on to enter or not. More interesting are the trends which underlie such distorting factors. Whilst doubtless its a factor, its hard to credit that nowadays riders are taking part in AUK events and joining AUK simply to qualify for PBP.
I'm rather short on palmares for international events, but I can say the '999' 1600km in Italy last summer with 300 or so riders kicked PBP out of the park.. in my 'umble opinion :)
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Heresy, I know, but there it is...
In your humble opinion.
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Of all the 1000+ km Audax I have come across reading Arrivee and the WWW, PBP is at the very bottom of my bucket list.
WAWA is at the very top... 8)
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Of all the 1000+ km Audax I have come across reading Arrivee and the WWW, PBP is at the very bottom of my bucket list.
Takes all sorts as we have said. I'm going back for my 6th next year.
That said I think the 1400k that I have enjoyed the most was the Dutch Capitals in 2012, an event with about 50 starters.
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Of all the 1000+ km Audax I have come across reading Arrivee and the WWW, PBP is at the very bottom of my bucket list.
WAWA is at the very top... 8)
I thought of helping out and filming on WAWA, but I felt I'd used up my lifetime's allocation of good weather on the Mile Failte in 2014. That had much of the scenery of WAWA, in perfect weather.
https://vimeo.com/112410939
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Of all the 1000+ km Audax I have come across reading Arrivee and the WWW, PBP is at the very bottom of my bucket list.
WAWA is at the very top... 8)
I thought of helping out and filming on WAWA, but I felt I'd used up my lifetime's allocation of good weather on the Mile Failte in 2014. That had much of the scenery of WAWA, in perfect weather.
https://vimeo.com/112410939
Yeah, but that's 2022, so too far ahead to think about it... WAWA is 2020, which makes it a nice target... 2018 was about getting the SR, 2019 will be about making a 300 into a 200... meaning be able to stay 12-13 hours on the saddle and not paying the price the day after, which is the key to long ones. I will probably do a lot of 300 next year
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This year's Mile Failte has a different route from 2014. Should be nice.
https://www.mf1200.com
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This year's Mile Failte has a different route from 2014. Should be nice.
https://www.mf1200.com
I am sure... but it's a bit late now... ;D
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It looks like they might have space. A lot of the usual suspects are riding.
https://www.mf1200.com/rouleurs.html
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It looks like they might have space. A lot of the usual suspects are riding.
https://www.mf1200.com/rouleurs.html
Fair enough, but as you might imagine, it's not as simple as packing a bag and booking a flight, or maybe it is for some enjoying golden retirement... as a matter of fact I am not quite sure I will EVER be able to do a multi day event before July... In theory I cannot take annual leave during University term time... so even WAWA might never happen.
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That's why many of the rides that are 'better' than PBP end up being ridden by a combination of keen locals and a floating cast of international 'usual suspects'.
They do PBP as well, but they're less in percentage terms, because PBP has four times as many participants as the next largest event.
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That's why many of the rides that are 'better' than PBP end up being ridden by a combination of keen locals and a floating cast of international 'usual suspects'.
They do PBP as well, but they're less in percentage terms, because PBP has four times as many participants as the next largest event.
I just don't get the allure of the century of history and the sense of busy international event... I have always been surrounded by people from all over the world, so that's not a novelty... what I do really like is a stunning route with breathtaking views, which typically involves sea, mountains or both.
Something like the Western Highlands or WAWA would probably be my kind of thing... just need to find something that runs in July or August... 2019 or 2020.
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I am a cycle tourist, every ride is a tour.
Me too. Do you still do CTC rides? Have they also been changed by the sportive and strava crowd?
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That's why many of the rides that are 'better' than PBP end up being ridden by a combination of keen locals and a floating cast of international 'usual suspects'.
They do PBP as well, but they're less in percentage terms, because PBP has four times as many participants as the next largest event.
I just don't get the allure of the century of history and the sense of busy international event... I have always been surrounded by people from all over the world, so that's not a novelty... what I do really like is a stunning route with breathtaking views, which typically involves sea, mountains or both.
Something like the Western Highlands or WAWA would probably be my kind of thing... just need to find something that runs in July or August... 2019 or 2020.
I don't get PBP, that's for sure. Tried it in my first year of audaxing but was ill before start and packed at 300k. It was a 10pm start, so headfirst into sleep deprivation which I think is just stupid. It was really cold and rained all night.
So....I've got a very jaded view, admittedly.
Being objective, there was nobody out on the streets because of the weather so there was none of the famed crowd support. I saw 50% of the route and I have to say it was monumentally dull. Possibly the most boring 300k I've ever ridden.
I did the MC1k 3 years later and loved it even though it was quite tiring. I think that crystallized what long audaxes are for me, or short ones for that matter. I find mile after mile of straight flat roads so much harder than undulations. I'm not really challenged physically to be blunt, but I'm challenged by boredom.
We are all different though, and different people get different things out of events which is why PBP has so many returnees.
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...there was nobody out on the streets because of the weather so there was none of the famed crowd support...
You mean you still haven't realised they were all hiding from you?
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The graph of SRs by year on the AUK website shows the impact of PBP, I'll be interested to see if that rising trend continues next year.
http://www.aukweb.net/results/statistics/detail/activitysr/
Or the continued declining trend of "SRs as a percentage of membership"?
(OK, so 2015 just managed to halt the decline, and that was with a freak growth in SRs and, obviously, membership)
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...there was nobody out on the streets because of the weather so there was none of the famed crowd support...
You mean you still haven't realised they were all hiding from you?
I was in disguise...such is my reputation in France and the Low Countries.
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I like PBP because it's a rouleurs event. I can't see how you'd get much out of it if you don't like the long flat stages of the Tour, and the stories that surround that.
I've got enough AAA points for some sort of medal, but wouldn't dream of getting one, as climbing means nothing to me.
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Or the continued declining trend of "SRs as a percentage of membership"?
(OK, so 2015 just managed to halt the decline, and that was with a freak growth in SRs and, obviously, membership)
I see that as a good thing. It would be a bit weird if 30% of the members achieved the most coveted award.
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I like PBP because it's a rouleurs event. I can't see how you'd get much out of it if you don't like the long flat stages of the Tour, and the stories that surround that.
I've got enough AAA points for some sort of medal, but wouldn't dream of getting one, as climbing means nothing to me.
I've never actually seen you on a bike.....just lurking in places like the steep footpath into Barmouth ;D
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I like PBP because it's a rouleurs event. I can't see how you'd get much out of it if you don't like the long flat stages of the Tour, and the stories that surround that.
It's funny because the route is squeezed in no man's land between two very nice areas for cycling. The north coast of Brittany is very nice, although of course undulated... the Loire valley on the south is also lovely and would make a fantastic event on its own
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I like PBP because it's a rouleurs event. I can't see how you'd get much out of it if you don't like the long flat stages of the Tour, and the stories that surround that.
It's funny because the route is squeezed in no man's land between two very nice areas for cycling. The north coast of Brittany is very nice, although of course undulated... the Loire valley on the south is also lovely and would make a fantastic event on its own
The PBP route is a bit of a Disneyland confection. It largely avoids the 21st Century, which does present difficulties, as retail tends to be off route, on the new by passes. I explored that in a film that was also an article in the PBP brochure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14cV1fi64MA
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The graph of SRs by year on the AUK website shows the impact of PBP, I'll be interested to see if that rising trend continues next year.
http://www.aukweb.net/results/statistics/detail/activitysr/
Or the continued declining trend of "SRs as a percentage of membership"?
(OK, so 2015 just managed to halt the decline, and that was with a freak growth in SRs and, obviously, membership)
Is that not simply a factor of a constantly increasing membership? Whilst some might go straight into an SR, many take time to build up to the longer distances and some some might not make it or feel the neeed to do so year on year. So whilst the %SR stat is vaguely interesting by itself it's not really conclusive of anything. IMHO :)
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Doing a SR sounds easy if you don't have any family, social, holiday or work commitments to get in the way.
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Doing a SR sounds easy if you don't have any family, social, holiday or work commitments to get in the way.
Oddly enough, in my case, an SR is more attractive, as it's only 4 rides. Mrs CET tends to count the number of events (as each one impacts a weekend) rather than their duration. So this year I've done 200, 300, 400, 1000, and will do another 200, because the first one was in Holland and I haven't been able to recover the approved brevet card for validation. Now, a RRTY is an entirely different and unpalatable kettle of fish because it counts 12.
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Indeed.
It's even worse with RRTY. It's not really a physical test, more one of having the freedom to do it. Ditto the Championship. Try winning that if you've got a full-time job, let alone family.
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I've never really understood the challenge in RRTY. Nominally there are 8 weekend riding days per month. Pick one..... not too much to ask in this age of DIYs, surely? :)
p.s., If you're really pressed you could follow the example of a buddy of mine and be on the road at 3am, nominally back by 1pm. Your SO will scarcely know youve been gone.
p.p.s., I was outed once when having retired early because "I had an early start", I got up to leave before Mrs Manotea retired for the night. I blame those Scandi Noir Serials on Iplayer, whatev...
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Something like the Western Highlands or WAWA would probably be my kind of thing... just need to find something that runs in July or August... 2019 or 2020.
I know what you mean. I do want to do PBP but I don't have the same wholehearted desire that I had to do the West Highlands. I might do PBP next year but it seems unlikely.
I've always had my eye on Hamburg-Berlin-Cologne-Hamburg, which happens in August. It's perhaps a bit beyond what I'm capable of but then I thought that would be true of the West Highlands too.
I'd love to do WAWA but that's definitely not a realistic proposition for me right now.
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p.s., If you're really pressed you could follow the example of a buddy of mine and be on the road at 3am, nominally back by 1pm. Your SO will scarcely know youve been gone.
Nope. Doesn’t sound like anyone I know.
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Doing a SR sounds easy if you don't have any family, social, holiday or work commitments to get in the way.
Oddly enough, in my case, an SR is more attractive, as it's only 4 rides. Mrs CET tends to count the number of events (as each one impacts a weekend) rather than their duration. So this year I've done 200, 300, 400, 1000, and will do another 200, because the first one was in Holland and I haven't been able to recover the approved brevet card for validation. Now, a RRTY is an entirely different and unpalatable kettle of fish because it counts 12.
Oh Most of that 200 wasn't in Holland, a lot of it was in Utrecht :p
I got my Brevett back at a recent Maastricht event. It is my understanding that the Dutch tend to take the Brevett cards to a few events, and then if you've not appeared at another event after a certain amount of time, they post it. But I'm not certain, Ivo will know for sure.
I've never really understood the challenge in RRTY. Nominally there are 8 weekend riding days per month. Pick one..... not too much to ask in this age of DIYs, surely? :)
Assuming your country's Audax association allows DIY's (The Dutch don't). And assuming that one of those 8 riding days in Jan and Feb matches up with a) being free, and b) there being no ice on the ground...
One of my reasons for joining AUK, even tho I'm not in the UK, is because it allows DIY's/Perms for things like RRtY, which appeals a lot. The Dutch tend to have a shortage of 200's in May, June, and July, so if you're not yet ready to do a 400 or 600, then doing RRtY is hard.
J
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Something like the Western Highlands or WAWA would probably be my kind of thing... just need to find something that runs in July or August... 2019 or 2020.
I know what you mean. I do want to do PBP but I don't have the same wholehearted desire that I had to do the West Highlands. I might do PBP next year but it seems unlikely.
I've always had my eye on Hamburg-Berlin-Cologne-Hamburg, which happens in August. It's perhaps a bit beyond what I'm capable of but then I thought that would be true of the West Highlands too.
I'd love to do WAWA but that's definitely not a realistic proposition for me right now.
There are two options being considered for 2020 for WAWA. One option will be similar to the setup in 2016, 300km days and 7 days 7 hours (175 hours) to complete, all food at end if day and sleeping arrangements included. Second option being mulled is 9 days, so around 230km days, sort out your own sleeping arrangements and food, but much cheaper entry. It was last week of June in 2016 but might fall in July in 2020. So do not rule it out till you see what options are available as it firms up. One thing that seems clear is it won't be the same size as the field of 55 that started the inaugural edition. Mandatory route, live tracking likely again.
Eamon also dropped this other mad idea past me about a fortnight ago. But I won't post that here as at the moment I think it would scare you far more than WAWA on its own.
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Eamon also dropped this other mad idea past me about a fortnight ago. But I won't post that here as at the moment I think it would scare you far more than WAWA on its own.
For us newbies. What's WAWA?
J
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Eamon also dropped this other mad idea past me about a fortnight ago. But I won't post that here as at the moment I think it would scare you far more than WAWA on its own.
For us newbies. What's WAWA?
J
Wild Atlantic Way Audax. A 2100km audax up the West coast of Ireland over 7 days. First edition ran in 2016, next edition in 2020.
I wrote up my experience for Arrivee, and much later published it online here. Be warned I do not write short articles.
https://long-distance.rocks/the-call-of-the-wild-prologue/
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There are two options being considered for 2020 for WAWA. One option will be similar to the setup in 2016, 300km days and 7 days 7 hours (175 hours) to complete, all food at end if day and sleeping arrangements included. Second option being mulled is 9 days, so around 230km days, sort out your own sleeping arrangements and food, but much cheaper entry.
I guess because the latter is the strict interpretation of Audax minimum speeds (10kph for events registered as 1900 to 2400 km). 2100/10 = 210h = 8d 18h.
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Both WAWA options are attractive, although the DIY a lot more expensive in the end
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Anyone here ever do long rides without bothering about following a GPS trail, controls or validation - or does that put oneself on an AUK blacklist stripped of their 'randonneur' status?
Just asking for a friend.
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Anyone here ever do long rides without bothering about following a GPS trail, controls or validation - or does that put oneself on an AUK blacklist stripped of their 'randonneur' status?
Just asking for a friend.
;D
Pretty much every Arrivée features a tour report from an AUK member. (Usually not done as a perm, I hasten to add.)
[it does make me smile that many of these authors think they are the only AUK ever to ride more than a 100 miles without it being an Audax, but if it makes them happy ... ]
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Anyone here ever do long rides without bothering about following a GPS trail, controls or validation - or does that put oneself on an AUK blacklist stripped of their 'randonneur' status?
Just asking for a friend.
Just the opposite – it confirms your proper randonneur status.
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Anyone here ever do long rides without bothering about following a GPS trail, controls or validation - or does that put oneself on an AUK blacklist stripped of their 'randonneur' status?
Just asking for a friend.
Just the opposite – it confirms your proper randonneur status.
Likewise riding a significant distance to the start without turning it into an ECE.
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I am guilty of having written articles for Arrivee about long rides with no attempt at validation. I must say I haven't noticed any evidence of writers thinking they are the only people ever to have done this. Still, smiling is generally a good thing!
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Anyone here ever do long rides without bothering about following a GPS trail, controls or validation - or does that put oneself on an AUK blacklist stripped of their 'randonneur' status?
Just asking for a friend.
Just the opposite – it confirms your proper randonneur status.
Perhaps maximum achievement is if you ride it and never tell anybody at all?
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One irony is that I've never ridden PBP as a Randonneur, always a Touriste. I got the points, and once I rode in less than 84 hours.
Perhaps the points should only count if you do the Randonneur. That might satisfy the purists. I'm not really bothered.
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I often ride to the start of events and have never bothered about ece or extra pointe etc, i do it because i enyoy riding my bike :thumbsup:
In the past 50miles to a 200km was normal, the watership down 100km is always a 200k day ride there and home !
I once rode 300km to the start of a 400km for the hell of it and many of the 1000km plus events i have done , i have ridden any thing up to 500miles to get there.
All done without a card in my pocket,a route in my gps and most importantly all ridden for FUN!!! :smug:
Its worth also noting i still us route sheets on events and only bother down loading gpx files to my gps for overseas events :demon:
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Anyone here ever do long rides without bothering about following a GPS trail, controls or validation - or does that put oneself on an AUK blacklist stripped of their 'randonneur' status?
Just asking for a friend.
Just the opposite – it confirms your proper randonneur status.
Likewise riding a significant distance to the start without turning it into an ECE.
People ride ECE for RRTY or for some other point based Award... in the absence of any of that it becomes an exercise of bragging, for which Strava is much more effective and free of charge.
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I am guilty of having written articles for Arrivee about long rides with no attempt at validation. I must say I haven't noticed any evidence of writers thinking they are the only people ever to have done this. Still, smiling is generally a good thing!
They are usually quite interesting articles!
(was yours the railway lines ride? Whatever, as long as you are happy with your work ;) )
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People ride ECE for RRTY or for some other point based Award... in the absence of any of that it becomes an exercise of bragging, for which Strava is much more effective and free of charge.
They're valid towards almost all AUK awards - points-based or otherwise.
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I am guilty of having written articles for Arrivee about long rides with no attempt at validation. I must say I haven't noticed any evidence of writers thinking they are the only people ever to have done this. Still, smiling is generally a good thing!
They are usually quite interesting articles!
(was yours the railway lines ride? Whatever, as long as you are happy with your work ;) )
I think it probably was - I did it with young Perrin. And there's a couple about canals and tracks. As you imply, pleasure in riding is the thing - and the writing!
Peter
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Doing a SR sounds easy if you don't have any family, social, holiday or work commitments to get in the way.
Oddly enough, in my case, an SR is more attractive, as it's only 4 rides. Mrs CET tends to count the number of events (as each one impacts a weekend) rather than their duration. So this year I've done 200, 300, 400, 1000, and will do another 200, because the first one was in Holland and I haven't been able to recover the approved brevet card for validation. Now, a RRTY is an entirely different and unpalatable kettle of fish because it counts 12.
You don't need the brevet card? Your homologation number is here: http://www.lowlands1000.nl/uploads/Homologaties/2018/2018_180127_Bunnik-200_HOM.htm
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I find that accidentally losing a Brevet card removes a bit of stress and is liberating. More to the point, it means I can stop when I want, and not have to remember where control points and infos are.
For me personally* validation holds no actual value. Strava does a better job of logging my rides because it displays the route, can generate a Google earth video, gives me data, and allows me to attach photos. I don't care about points. I like riding events because they are events, usually with the opportunity to catch up with people I like in places I am less likely to ride on my own.
*and by personally,I mean what matters to me, not you. I don't actually care whether validation is important to you, although I accept that it may well be.
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You don't need the brevet card? Your homologation number is here: http://www.lowlands1000.nl/uploads/Homologaties/2018/2018_180127_Bunnik-200_HOM.htm
I tried to brute force the URL to see if I could find the Homologation for the March 200 from Maastricht (Namur). But it's not there by an obvious URL... awww.
J
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I find that accidentally losing a Brevet card removes a bit of stress and is liberating.
I'm not sure that sentiment would have been shared by the Belgian rider whose Brevet card (+ money and passport) I found on the floor of a cafe in Sizun on the return leg of PBP last time around. :o
(Luckily, he didn't realise his loss until he reached the next control, at Carhaix, and was still there when I arrived :thumbsup:)
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It's funny isn't it, there is a snobbery among some members of the audax community towards sportive riders and their silly medals, but really PBP isn't so different.
I dont like sportives and I don't value medals. I think I might do PBP next year without entering*
*ESL's sphincter just tightened up.
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Doing a SR sounds easy if you don't have any family, social, holiday or work commitments to get in the way.
You only need 3 Saturdays plus one weekend in the whole year. Not a great amount if time. Not really much worse than doing 5 200s unless you need to travel a considerable distance to the start.
If you can't find that amount if time now, perhaps in a few years commitments will allow.
If your child has just arrived you might be looking at 13 years or so.
As to more riding, when I started audax I was doing a club ride every Saturday when the children were at football training. My first calendar event was the Sean and the next month I did the severn across. I think 3 or 4 hours a week of hard riding should be enough to have fitness where it needs to be.
But I would agree that the time required for audax is not reasonable with 2 children under 5.
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I doubt I would have done PBP more than once if my partner Heather hadn't packed in 1999. There were 25 extra kilometres each way that year, which weren't well advertised. So she didn't have enough time in hand when she hit the first significant climb at Becherel.
She had to come back to do it in 2003, and got the taste for the atmosphere. I continued doing it, so we could have an interesting holiday together. She especially liked meeting a lot of the same people she saw when running a control on LEL.
There's a sub-culture of couples who ride audaxes, because they don't ride at the same speed. They can experience the same ride, without having to conform to the other's pace.
Audax can provide framework for riding with friends and family, without being tied to them. If you can get round a 600 in around 30 hours, you can be in a fit state to drive home by the time 40 hour riders get in. So it's an economical way of filling a weekend for the time-poor, the validation just comes with the territory.
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Doing a SR sounds easy if you don't have any family, social, holiday or work commitments to get in the way.
You only need 3 Saturdays plus one weekend in the whole year. Not a great amount if time. Not really much worse than doing 5 200s unless you need to travel a considerable distance to the start.
If you can't find that amount if time now, perhaps in a few years commitments will allow.
Come off it - you do need to put some hours in on the bike separately from the actual events so that the longer rides aren't a torturous ordeal, that's why I failed so drastically when child number one arrived, with child number two recently it's been real juggle with some very creative excursions and childcare arrangements to minimise impact and I'm not sure I can reasonably compromise family time like that when children are a little older and we want to be taking them out on bikes and camping etc. when 'peak' long distance audax season is with us.
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You pays your money, you takes your choice.
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I tried to brute force the URL to see if I could find the Homologation for the March 200 from Maastricht (Namur). But it's not there by an obvious URL... awww.
J
The full list of Dutch brevet results is here (scroll down): http://www.lowlands1000.nl/
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It's funny isn't it, there is a snobbery among some members of the audax community towards sportive riders and their silly medals, but really PBP isn't so different.
I'm sometimes not sure whether Flatus is being facetious or not, but that's an interesting thought. There are certainly some similarities:
- there is a big send-off rather than a man with a beard saying "off you go then"
- the route is signposted
- you get a medal at the end
- everyone's finishing time is published and some people ride 'for a time' or a PB
- some people, particularly in matching kit, ride like wankers
- photographers along the way take pictures to sell to you afterwards
But I think the comparison ends there. You can't compare the all-inclusive catering on most sportives with the unpredictable controls on PBP and, of course, there is the small matter of the distance.
That aside, there is a bit of snobbery amongst some AUKs towards sportives and I'll confess that I'm sometimes guilty of it myself.
I suspect that it's not the content of the sportives that elicits this, nor the fact that riders get medals or goodie bags, but more the ludicrous way in which some of them are promoted and the disproportionate entry costs.
For example, I received an invitation recently to take part in "the ultimate sportive challenge". This turned out to be a 300km ride on a very benign route, in a 24 hour "target" time limit. There were regular feeding stations, support vehicles, etc. and even "guides" who would lead the way. All for a three figure entry fee. There was a little promo film from the previous year in which the participants talked about their achievement in the kind of language normally reserved for polar explorers.
I don't doubt that for many of those individuals this was a significant achievement. I remember how elated I felt after my first 100km London-Brighton ride. But I think the average AUK could be forgiven for being less impressed. And that may be why many are a bit sniffy about sportives in general.
As for the original question that kicked off this thread - I'd say it's in a pretty good state and getting better all the time. My money would be on a record UK entry and percentage of finishers in France next summer.
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I'm sometimes not sure whether Flatus is being facetious or not
I find it safest to assume he always is. ;)
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It's not an easy distinction to make if one has the attributes of a typical audaxers.
Long time (12 years) forum members will get this ;D
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As a newbie to audax but a fairly experienced club cyclist, I’ve been following this thread with interest. I think part of the audax mystique is working out what it actually is, and I guess it can be different things for different folks, and that’s surely a good thing? I’m lucky in that I have some good friends in my club who have ridden audax for years and I’ve been able to pick their brains and find out a bit more about it. My impression would be that someone who didn’t know what audax is May find it a bit confusing at first; a bit like timetrialling course codes, easy to understand once you’ve done one or two, but initially confusing.
My reasons for doing them this year were to give me some longer, base miles in preparation for a 12 hour tt. That said, 10 years a bashing up and down dual carriageways has begun to lose it’s appeal and audax was a way for me to try something else, and I have really enjoyed it and I can see myself doing more audax and less time trialling in the future.
If I’m honest, I am a bit of a sportive snob. Anything that gets people out of bikes and taking exercise is a good thing, but £80ish for a gpx route and some gels and flapjacks seems quite steep to me. I’m sure there are costs that I’m not aware of, but quite a few of them seem to be very steep for what they are. The standard of riding is very variable too, and I’d just rather not be near people who either don’t know how to ride in a group or worse, don’t care how to ride in a group. I have done two and can’t see myself riding any more.
I guess I may be perceived by some as a newbie ‘full kit w***er’. I ended up riding the London-Wales-London relatively fast, but that wasn’t a conscious decision; I simply rode at a pace that was good for me, with others that were chugging along at a pace that was sustainable for me too. I have every respect for all the other riders that finished, no matter what time they finished and I really like the fact that in audax, time, for the most part, is irrelevant.
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Interesting point about PBP and maybe that's why I'm more drawn to ultracycling races for longer distances. In some ways TCR, TAW, etc. maintain the self-supported appeal of audaxing more than PBP or LEL. You get a brevet card and then just try and make it round the controls before the finishers' party - every event should always finish in a pub (ACH rule #5).
But this all helps UK Audax as well. I met quite a few first-timers on TINAT last weekend drawn in by Mike Hall's legacy, as well as TCR veterans on other events including my own, not least thanks to Mike's participation in BC, BCM, etc.
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Come off it - you do need to put some hours in on the bike separately from the actual events so that the longer rides aren't a torturous ordeal...
Yes and no... This time last week, I'd done a total of less than 800km cycling according to my Strava log. Then I went and did the 1000km Scottish ride.
I'll admit that it would definitely have been preferable to have got a few long rides in by way of warm-up, but I coped OK. I certainly wouldn't describe it as a torturous ordeal - well, except for a few moments towards the end of the first 456km leg to Oban...
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Interesting point about PBP and maybe that's why I'm more drawn to ultracycling races for longer distances. In some ways TCR, TAW, etc. maintain the self-supported appeal of audaxing more than PBP or LEL. You get a brevet card and then just try and make it round the controls before the finishers' party - every event should always finish in a pub (ACH rule #5).
But this all helps UK Audax as well. I met quite a few first-timers on TINAT last weekend drawn in by Mike Hall's legacy, as well as TCR veterans on other events including my own, not least thanks to Mike's participation in BC, BCM, etc.
Whilst I don' t have Ivan's ultra credentials (I still find 400km a long way, tbh) I'm in much the same place. It's about the route. I'm not especially interested in TLC though a bit of company at controls is very welcome, if only to reassure I'm still on track.
Shorter events with TLC (starting to hate that term... patronising/condescending... something else for those that will to be knobbish about... ) dedicated controls with refreshments do have their role though.
I get a lot of very positive feedback from Randonneurs (because they are now...) who say the London Ditchling Devil was their first Audax and they plan on doing more.
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I get a lot of very positive feedback from Randonneurs (because they are now...) who say the London Ditchling Devil was their first Audax and they plan on doing more.
I guess the question is: how do we convert them into also becoming members - or do we want to?
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The 1st Audax weekend of June 2018 may go down as having the highest number of 1st timers* in history :)
*Might need to say 200km+ events only, and allow BPs :P
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And the number of DNFs by members since, er, the Easter Arrow?
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Come off it - you do need to put some hours in on the bike separately from the actual events so that the longer rides aren't a torturous ordeal...
Yes and no... This time last week, I'd done a total of less than 800km cycling according to my Strava log. Then I went and did the 1000km Scottish ride.
I'll admit that it would definitely have been preferable to have got a few long rides in by way of warm-up, but I coped OK. I certainly wouldn't describe it as a torturous ordeal - well, except for a few moments towards the end of the first 456km leg to Oban...
I know there's workarounds, but for most it means a long ride (4 hours odd +) on a weekend day away from family once or twice a month. My alternative this year has been a basement turbo set up that's visited three or four times a week on my lunch break at work, but that's me being a little obsessive about not 'falling off the wagon' bike wise like I did with the first baby, most others prefer to actually get fresh air and daylight along with their exercise :D
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And the number of DNFs by members since, er, the Easter Arrow?
Hehe! Indeedy.
(OK, so here's another made-up, possibly true stat; the welsh events had the Highest Number of BP DNFs by AUK Members.
Unless there is some snowed off 100km from back in the day ... )
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Come off it - you do need to put some hours in on the bike separately from the actual events so that the longer rides aren't a torturous ordeal...
Yes and no... This time last week, I'd done a total of less than 800km cycling according to my Strava log. Then I went and did the 1000km Scottish ride.
I'll admit that it would definitely have been preferable to have got a few long rides in by way of warm-up, but I coped OK. I certainly wouldn't describe it as a torturous ordeal - well, except for a few moments towards the end of the first 456km leg to Oban...
I know there's workarounds, but for most it means a long ride (4 hours odd +) on a weekend day away from family once or twice a month. My alternative this year has been a basement turbo set up that's visited three or four times a week on my lunch break at work, but that's me being a little obsessive about not 'falling off the wagon' bike wise like I did with the first baby, most others prefer to actually get fresh air and daylight along with their exercise :D
If you cycle to work regularly then you can go straight into an SR series without any additional long rides to take up weekends.
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If you cycle to work regularly then you can go straight into an SR series without any additional long rides to take up weekends.
Depends how far you cycle to work, and the terrain. My 15km round trip to work and back in Amsterdam is not enough training for a 200km BRM in the Ardennes.
J
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If you cycle to work regularly then you can go straight into an SR series without any additional long rides to take up weekends.
Depends how far you cycle to work, and the terrain. My 15km round trip to work and back in Amsterdam is not enough training for a 200km BRM in the Ardennes.
J
Ok, 20 miles and 400m ascent in total per day, five days a week is enough to jump straight onto an SR series comfortably.
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Ok, 20 miles and 400m ascent in total per day, five days a week day is enough to jump straight onto an SR series comfortably.
I'd have to do best part of 100k to get 400m of ascent in...
J
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Ok, 20 miles and 400m ascent in total per day, five days a week day is enough to jump straight onto an SR series comfortably.
I'd have to do best part of 100k to get 400m of ascent in...
J
Or cycle faster to achieve the same effort. Point is, you do not have to commit, hours at a time, and many weekends in order to complete an SR series.
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Ok, 20 miles and 400m ascent in total per day, five days a week is enough to jump straight onto an SR series comfortably.
...if you've already done an SR series at some point before, yes. I've pushed through on some rides where I've been woefully prepared*.
I wouldn't say the same is as true if you've never cycled some of those distances ever before.
* I cycled further on a 24h TT in late July one year than I had cycled in the entire year up to that point (which included a 200km Audax).
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Ok, 20 miles and 400m ascent in total per day, five days a week is enough to jump straight onto an SR series comfortably.
...if you've already done an SR series at some point before, yes. I've pushed through on some rides where I've been woefully prepared*.
I wouldn't say the same is as true if you've never cycled some of those distances ever before.
Nope that is what I was doing when I did my first SR series; so it applies to that equally as well.
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It's lucky that all human cyclists are identical clones, so these statements of training requirements will be correct for anyone that joins AUK (of any age or gender).
(Incidentall, my bingo card won't be complete until we get the phrase; "If I can do it ... " )
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I only organise events under AUK for BRM status and insurance.
I see no reason why AUK should see other organisations running long events as competition. Its only essential role is in relation to ACP.
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If i can do it!!!!! There you go matt. A full house.
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If i can do it!!!!! There you go matt. A full house.
Thanks :-*
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Ok, 20 miles and 400m ascent in total per day, five days a week day is enough to jump straight onto an SR series comfortably.
I'd have to do best part of 100k to get 400m of ascent in...
J
I managed 92km and just 230m of ascent around Cambridge last month — The Netherlands aren't the only mind-numbingly boring flat part of the world ::-)
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Personally, I think there is way too much emphasis on PBP...The Audax world should not revolve around PBP and LEL... personally I have zero desire to do PBP
Yeah but it's a laugh. And not terribly difficult
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Ok, 20 miles and 400m ascent in total per day, five days a week day is enough to jump straight onto an SR series comfortably.
I'd have to do best part of 100k to get 400m of ascent in...
J
I though the Netherlands had secret tech for training for hill climbs --- headwinds
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Anyone here ever do long rides without bothering about following a GPS trail, controls or validation - or does that put oneself on an AUK blacklist stripped of their 'randonneur' status?
Just asking for a friend.
;D
Pretty much every Arrivée features a tour report from an AUK member. (Usually not done as a perm, I hasten to add.)
[it does make me smile that many of these authors think they are the only AUK ever to ride more than a 100 miles without it being an Audax, but if it makes them happy ... ]
Articles in Arrivée were the main way that members expressed what they got out of Audax before the growth of new media. There are plenty of people whose motivations come entirely from within Audax, but others take inspiration from the broader cycling world.
I'm not going to ride around the world in a record time, I'm not going to participate in the Tour de France, and I'm not going to bikepack across continents.
But I'm going feel a lot closer to doing those things, if I raise the level of my game through structured increments, starting with distances similar to those which impress the casual fan of stage races.
The state of Audax is related to the state of the long-distance cycling that the public is exposed to, be that LEJOG, stage races, RAAM, TCR, 24 Hour TTs or sportives. I've also ridden with representatives of all those worlds on events. Audax isn't just a fantasy analogue, it's the real thing.
Arrivée and the website are the shop windows.
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Audax isn't just a fantasy analogue, it's the real thing.
For me this is a key appeal of audax. It's its own structure, with clear rules and a points system which rewards achievements of long distance cycling.
A Sportive on the other hand (what does that word even mean? "Sport-like"?) is for me a kind of fake event, in which most riders are pretending to be racer-like and "pro". Even the send-off is kind of dishonest with the organizer saying "now this is not a race" while middle-aged men in team kit exchange knowing glances.
Mind you, a sportive is worth riding for glorious moments such as when, on the first climb, the lardy bloke on carbon is overtaken by a young girl with pink handlebar streamers. DAMHIKT.
When I'm asked what the difference between an audax and a sportive is, I say: there's no I in audax.
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The thing with sportives are that they are much more in the public eye, at least in the cycling world. If you buy anything from Wiggle or Evans for example, you’ll be bombarded on Facebook / email with details of their sponsored sportive events. So those riders who are relatively new will see these and see them as something to train for. A lot of people will want to pay the extra money for a way marked route, food and mechanical support. There’s no harm in that, but I would probably hazard a guess that your average audaxer is happier to be more self-reliant and sees that as much a part of the audax challenge than merely the distance itself.
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I would probably hazard a guess that your average audaxer is happier to be more self-reliant and sees that as much a part of the audax challenge than merely the distance itself.
That's a can of worms you're opening...
Many audaxers aren't remotely interested in being self-reliant and will admit to being mechanically incompetent, they just want to ride their bike long distances.
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The thing with sportives are that they are much more in the public eye, at least in the cycling world. If you buy anything from Wiggle or Evans for example, you’ll be bombarded on Facebook / email with details of their sponsored sportive events. So those riders who are relatively new will see these and see them as something to train for. A lot of people will want to pay the extra money for a way marked route, food and mechanical support. There’s no harm in that, but I would probably hazard a guess that your average audaxer is happier to be more self-reliant and sees that as much a part of the audax challenge than merely the distance itself.
I would say this is a good thing... last thing you want is an audax being invaded by needy folks, complaining with the organisers that there was no water for a full 30 miles and that they got lost because the GPS kept routing them onto a gravelly path and that the vertical ascent did not match the one on Strava and that they got dehydrated in the heat and hypothermic in the cold and that when they called the supplied mobile phone number, nobody answered and they were left stranded with a punctured tyre.
It's a good thing if those folks get a bit of experience riding distance and THEN realise they want more, while at the same time they need less... that's where Audax becomes the obvious answer.
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I would probably hazard a guess that your average audaxer is happier to be more self-reliant and sees that as much a part of the audax challenge than merely the distance itself.
That's a can of worms you're opening...
Many audaxers aren't remotely interested in being self-reliant and will admit to being mechanically incompetent, they just want to ride their bike long distances.
Maybe that’s just me then!
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Hold on. Let me get some popcorn.
I hope you had a very BIG bag of popcorn?
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>> The thing with sportives are that they are much more in the public eye, at least in the cycling world. If you buy anything from Wiggle or Evans for example, you’ll be bombarded on Facebook / email with details of their sponsored sportive events.
This is why the shop windows are so important; not so much to advertize individual events but simply to build awareness that audax exists at all there is more to cycling than sportives and charity events.
Unfortunately whilst we offer a very glossy shop window to AUK members (Arrivee), the shop window offered to the outside world is rather... Clicky (https://www.google.com/search?q=open+all+hours&client=firefox-b-ab&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj4gYHj_8PbAhVCElAKHfZeC4EQ_AUICygC&biw=1920&bih=943)
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Audax has the advantage of an easily Googled name. That's its shop window.
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Manotea - I clicked on that - can't be right - not a beard in sight.
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Audax has the advantage of an easily Googled name. That's its shop window.
Yes, but look where it takes you...
I refer the honorourable gentleman to my previous response. :)
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A Sportive on the other hand (what does that word even mean? "Sport-like"?)
It's a contraction/anglicisation of a contraction of a French phrase.
You could just as well ask what does "Audax" even mean?
When I'm asked what the difference between an audax and a sportive is, I say: there's no I in audax.
The standard quip is:
Sportive riders pretend they're racing.
Audax riders pretend they're not.
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My dad says it's changed - it used to have the reputation of a bunch of slightly weird older men sleeping in bus shelters, eating flapjacks, drinking cold tea and scowling at passers by. Now ..............
...they are all a bit older
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...people have a little bit more money and the bus shelters have been rebranded as "Travelodges".
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....there are slightly weird older women as well
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This is why the shop windows are so important; not so much to advertize individual events but simply to build awareness that audax exists at all there is more to cycling than sportives and charity events.
Indeed. When I was preparing to leave my hotel at 3am on Sunday, I had a good chat with the night porter about what I was doing. He was really interested and wanted to know all about it, and obviously had never heard of audax before. I explained that there are a lot more of us doing this kind of thing than most people realise but we're a bit 'under the radar'.
Of course, being under the radar is in many ways a good thing - we aren't subject to the same public scrutiny as some sportives, and I've certainly never heard of anyone scattering tacks on an audax route.
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All latin words referring to moral and physical strength are frowned upon in Italy, as they were heavily used by the fascist regime of Mussolini. In fact I am surprised the word Audax is even used among Italian randonneurs... I certainly don't refer to them as "audax" to my Italian friends, but as "randonnees", or just as organised rides...
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This is why the shop windows are so important; not so much to advertize individual events but simply to build awareness that audax exists at all there is more to cycling than sportives and charity events.
Indeed. When I was preparing to leave my hotel at 3am on Sunday, I had a good chat with the night porter about what I was doing. He was really interested and wanted to know all about it, and obviously had never heard of audax before. I explained that there are a lot more of us doing this kind of thing than most people realise but we're a bit 'under the radar'.
Of course, being under the radar is in many ways a good thing - we aren't subject to the same public scrutiny as some sportives, and I've certainly never heard of anyone scattering tacks on an audax route.
I had a similar conversation with a passer by when sitting at some traffic lights on LEL!
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...people have a little bit more money and the bus shelters have been rebranded as "Travelodges".
I recall the hard time I was given by some other riders the first time I used a Travelodge on an audax.
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All latin words referring to moral and physical strength are frowned upon in Italy, as they were heavily used by the fascist regime of Mussolini. In fact I am surprised the word Audax is even used among Italian randonneurs... I certainly don't refer to them as "audax" to my Italian friends, but as "randonnees", or just as organised rides...
Which, as what AUK validates are not audax events but randonnées, is correct. The confusion relates to the origins of Audax Club Parisien, which also doesn't run audax events.
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...people have a little bit more money and the bus shelters have been rebranded as "Travelodges".
I recall the hard time I was given by some other riders the first time I used a Travelodge on an audax.
I don't know why. Fast riders grabbing B&B accommodation on longer events is a long-established tradition.
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...people have a little bit more money and the bus shelters have been rebranded as "Travelodges".
I recall the hard time I was given by some other riders the first time I used a Travelodge on an audax.
I don't know why. Fast riders grabbing B&B accommodation on longer events is a long-established tradition.
I think it was the 2002 South Coast 1000. Probably a bit new then. The words 'going soft' were definitely used.
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Fast riders were using b&b when i first started in 1991 only thing back then no travelogdes! !! Often we just look for a b&b on route about 10ish at night , bingo
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Hold on. Let me get some popcorn.
I hope you had a very BIG bag of popcorn?
I'm full.
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The standard quip is:
Sportive riders pretend they're racing.
Audax riders pretend they're not.
I thought it was "there are no winners in Audax, just losers".
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The standard quip is:
Sportive riders pretend they're racing.
Audax riders pretend they're not.
I thought it was "there are no winners in Audax, just losers".
It's not about winning. It's about taking part, and posting how much you enjoyed the ride on YACF*
*but making sure you post it ASAP, so we can all see from the timestamp that you won.
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...people have a little bit more money and the bus shelters have been rebranded as "Travelodges".
I recall the hard time I was given by some other riders the first time I used a Travelodge on an audax.
You're OK - just don't let Mrs B start following you around from one control to the next in a motorhome.
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I would say this is a good thing... last thing you want is an audax being invaded by needy folks...that the vertical ascent did not match the one on Strava
A few years ago I had a previous high finisher in the National 24H complaining about exactly this on the Avalon Sunrise
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At some point we mentioned TLC, so this X rated event caught my eye in the results page. I can only guess the route should be superb, probably very demanding... certainly that day the weather was magnificent... maybe one could argue that the start is a bit remote for many... either way, it turns out there are 3 finishers. I bet if it was a full TLC national 300 route we would be looking at 150
http://www.aukweb.net/events/detail/18-341/
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bus shelters have been rebranded as "Travelodges".
With the difference that Travelodges are less welcoming.
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A Sportive on the other hand (what does that word even mean? "Sport-like"?) is for me a kind of fake event, in which most riders are pretending to be racer-like and "pro". Even the send-off is kind of dishonest with the organizer saying "now this is not a race" while middle-aged men in team kit exchange knowing glances.
Not for everyone. I ride the odd sportive. I consider them as audaxes without the pressure of a time limit.
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There might be a validation bottleneck... ::-)
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The validation process is definitely going to need reformation within 5-10 years. It's just not tenable for putting bits of paper in the post for manual processing by volunteers going in to the 21st century. I appreciate current volunteers may prefer to stick with what they know but prospective volunteers are going to be baffled and frustrated by being asked to use inefficient processes.
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The validation process is definitely going to need reformation within 5-10 years. It's just not tenable for putting bits of paper in the post for manual processing by volunteers going in to the 21st century. I appreciate current volunteers may prefer to stick with what they know but prospective volunteers are going to be baffled and frustrated by being asked to use inefficient processes.
Technically only the BRM still need the all post thing.... and in my opinion there are way too many BRM in the calendar. Other than in PBP years, who needs a 200/300/400 BRM? They could easily drop to a BR with instant validation, leaving BRM only for the very long 600/1000+ events and even the latter only really needed on pre-PBP years
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Funnily enough, the validation process *is* evolving, and has been for some time.
Self-validation - for some events, by some organisers - is relatively new, and the BRM process has changed too, no longer needing quite so much posted to Paris (yes, ACP accepts electronic submission, from AUK rather than from individual organisers). No doubt further changes will come.
As for BRM events, personally I'd prefer to see more rather than fewer. If you want any of the ACP awards, you need to claim using BRMs not BRs, and where organisers of long brevets in other countries require qualification, they also often require BRMs rather than locally validated events.
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Technically only the BRM still need the all post thing.... and in my opinion there are way too many BRM in the calendar. Other than in PBP years, who needs a 200/300/400 BRM? They could easily drop to a BR with instant validation, leaving BRM only for the very long 600/1000+ events and even the latter only really needed on pre-PBP years
When I was contemplating whether or not to make my 200 a BRM, I canvassed for opinion here, and although the consensus was broadly in line with what you say, some people expressed a preference for BRM to the extent that they would choose a BRM over a BR, regardless of whether it's a PBP year or not (for many different reasons, such as the ACP awards as mentioned by jsabine.
My 200 is a BRM this year - which may or may not be of use to some as a PBP pre-qualifier - but I'll almost certainly revert to BR next year.
Instant validation wouldn't be appropriate for all events anyway and AFAIK is currently only available for 200s.
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Technically only the BRM still need the all post thing.... and in my opinion there are way too many BRM in the calendar. Other than in PBP years, who needs a 200/300/400 BRM? They could easily drop to a BR with instant validation, leaving BRM only for the very long 600/1000+ events and even the latter only really needed on pre-PBP years
Except a BRM is needed to be able to get:
- ACP SR award
- ACP RANDONNEUR 5000
- ACP RANDONNEUR 10000
Also BRM's of 200 or more are registered with ACP.
Even if I don't aim for PBP next year (now looking unlikely), I'm going to be looking to do at least one BRM in the UK next year. Specifically because it's a BRM, not a BR or BP.
J
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Funnily enough, the validation process *is* evolving, and has been for some time.
Self-validation - for some events, by some organisers - is relatively new, and the BRM process has changed too, no longer needing quite so much posted to Paris (yes, ACP accepts electronic submission, from AUK rather than from individual organisers). No doubt further changes will come.
I find it reassuring that AUK isn't rushing into changes, preferring to introduce them gradually.
The first time I became aware that instant validation was a thing was on the Kennet Valley Run a couple of years ago when the org handed my card back to me after stamping it at the finish. I've not encountered instant validation again since then though. I'm in two minds about implementing it myself - it makes for more time-consuming work at the finish when I could perhaps be better occupied in more immediately useful ways.
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I'm in two minds about implementing it myself - it makes for more time-consuming work at the finish when I could perhaps be better occupied in more immediately useful ways.
That's when you need your willing army of minions! I don't think there's a rule that states that the post-ride validation may be carried out only by the event organiser.
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That's when you need your willing army of minions!
Nice idea in theory...
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That's when you need your willing army of minions!
Nice idea in theory...
There's limited room in my kitchen for minions as well as riders.
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I've had a few brevets validated on the spot... it didn't seem a taxing task... an extra sticker involved... if you run a big event, you might have to apply 100 stickers... if it's small, maybe only 20 stickers!
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I switched to instant validation this year on the Shark and doesn't really add that much work at the arrivée - what with the costs of stamps these days, saves you at least 50p per finisher.
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I've had a few brevets validated on the spot... it didn't seem a taxing task... an extra sticker involved... if you run a big event, you might have to apply 100 stickers... if it's small, maybe only 20 stickers!
Even less work than sending them off then. I'm amazed.
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I've had a few brevets validated on the spot... it didn't seem a taxing task... an extra sticker involved... if you run a big event, you might have to apply 100 stickers... if it's small, maybe only 20 stickers!
There's also the results sheet to be filled in for submission to AUK. Part of me thinks I'd rather be doing that with the brevets in hand to cross-reference and double-check, at my leisure after the event is finished.
Probably not a concern for more experienced organisers who are less likely to make errors or omissions in the process - which is part of the reason why AUK doesn't allow it for first-time organisers.
On the other hand, I can also see the benefits from an organiser's point of view.
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I've had a few brevets validated on the spot... it didn't seem a taxing task... an extra sticker involved... if you run a big event, you might have to apply 100 stickers... if it's small, maybe only 20 stickers!
There's also the results sheet to be filled in...
And stamps, receipts and timings to be checked.
Only one of my events is eligible anyway, so hardly an issue.
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What about a near future where an finish controller can simply click finishers through on a terminal (PC or smartphone), the finish time is automatically added and the finisher instantly appears as a 'provisional' in the Results pages?
I did actually trial this on 2 PBP qualifying events using a smartphone in a car park finish, as long ago as 2011, and it worked faultlessly. Didn't integrate very well with the paper-based processes though - for example having to look up my online finish lists to transfer finish times back to the brevet cards.
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That assumes that your village hall has an internet connection or 3G/4G mobile signal...
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Nobody's saying it's compulsory. I don't actually own a smartphone, I had to borrow one to trial it.
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But back to my original comment... is there a validation bottleneck (crisis?)? Looks like anything that happened over the last 5 weeks has not been validated yet. Being the most prolific time of the year, that's a lot of rides
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But back to my original comment... is there a validation bottleneck (crisis?)? Looks like anything that happened over the last 5 weeks has not been validated yet. Being the most prolific time of the year, that's a lot of rides
What is the usual validation process?
J
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But back to my original comment... is there a validation bottleneck (crisis?)? Looks like anything that happened over the last 5 weeks has not been validated yet. Being the most prolific time of the year, that's a lot of rides
I expect they'll catch up quickly enough when they're back from their hols.
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I expect they'll catch up quickly enough when they're back from their hols.
Our current validation secretaries are fortunate enough to be retired and with the means to travel away from home for several weeks at a time.
As Ian says, they catch up very quickly when they return. The eagle-eyed will have spotted that they are retiring at the end of this season. we already have some candidates, but if there are any more volunteers to take up the task, there are some brief details here (http://www.aukweb.net/official/notices/sitvac/) or you can PM me.
There's also the results sheet to be filled in for submission to AUK. Part of me thinks I'd rather be doing that with the brevets in hand to cross-reference and double-check, at my leisure after the event is finished.
Probably not a concern for more experienced organisers who are less likely to make errors or omissions in the process ....
I recently discussed this with one of our most experienced, trusted, and prolific organisers some while ago. Although AUK would have no hesitation in offering him 'instant' validation, he prefers to hang on to the cards to double-check in the calm away from the finish - before sending in returns electronically (for those events where that is permitted).
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What does the role involve? Happy to do computer work, less so posting stuff here and there...
On the topic, about a month ago I enquired about the RRTY secretary role, but Caroline told me it had already been filled... THEN three weeks later I find it advertised on Arrivee... talk about internal communication... ::-)
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What does the role involve? Happy to do computer work, less so posting stuff here and there...
On the topic, about a month ago I enquired about the RRTY secretary role, but Caroline told me it had already been filled... THEN three weeks later I find it advertised on Arrivee... talk about internal communication... ::-)
As has already been alluded to upthread, changes in validation process tend to the evolutionary rather than revolutionary, so posting physical cards/validation stickers will remain a feature for some time to come. I'll be happy to send you the instruction document if you are still interested.
On your second point, I don't think you can blame internal communication. I understand it was more to do with print deadlines.
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Whosatthewheel, Somnolent has beaten me to a reply... But yes, at the point I wrote back to you I wasn't in a position to finally confirm the new appointee, and by the time we were it was too late to change Arrivee copy unfortunately.
It was very pleasing to have so many people coming forward to volunteer their services (which I think provides part of the answer to the original question posed on this thread).
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As has already been alluded to upthread, changes in validation process tend to the evolutionary rather than revolutionary, so posting physical cards/validation stickers will remain a feature for some time to come.
It's the posting... hundreds if not thousands of cards... it's a mammoth task... don't think I'd be up to it.
Personally, I think it would be perfectly acceptable to get the brevet card back on the day and the validation to be fully electronic... one could even think of a system to get access to a downloadable "validation sticker"... don't get me wrong, I love validated cards, but is the system sustainable with 7,000 members and two people doing the job?
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Exactly the key thing in this case is 'scalability', an uptake in interest from non members in brevets might overwhelm the volunteer corps' paperwork capacity especially the postage.
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It's the posting... hundreds if not thousands of cards... it's a mammoth task... don't think I'd be up to it.
Personally, I think it would be perfectly acceptable to get the brevet card back on the day and the validation to be fully electronic... one could even think of a system to get access to a downloadable "validation sticker"... don't get me wrong, I love validated cards, but is the system sustainable with 7,000 members and two people doing the job?
I think the 7000 member thing is a red herring. Whilst there are 7000 members, how many of them are actually active on a given month? Sure some of you will do a ride on every weekend in the summer (and winter too), but the reality is that most members aren't. It's probably safe to apply the 80/20 rule here. 80% of the brevet cards are done by 20% of the people.
Part of this then becomes expectation management. How long do people expect it to take to get their cards back? Who's in a hurry?
Oh, and as for posting stuff, if you have a good relationship with your local postoffice, shipping 10 items, and shipping 200 isn't that much different in effort.
J
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I've made a pitch for instant validiation for 300km events on the AUK Forum. It's mostly an issue for event organisers and the validations team, but all AUK members are invited to have their say.
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I think the 7000 member thing is a red herring. Whilst there are 7000 members, how many of them are actually active on a given month? Sure some of you will do a ride on every weekend in the summer (and winter too), but the reality is that most members aren't. It's probably safe to apply the 80/20 rule here. 80% of the brevet cards are done by 20% of the people.
Part of this then becomes expectation management. How long do people expect it to take to get their cards back? Who's in a hurry?
Oh, and as for posting stuff, if you have a good relationship with your local postoffice, shipping 10 items, and shipping 200 isn't that much different in effort.
Based on the numbers here for 2016: http://www.aukweb.net/_resources/files/AGM_Papers.pdf
There are somewhere around 540 events per year (c.f. Breakdown of events by distance and year). Some organisers have multiple events on a single day so we'll say there needs to be ~450 separate batches of Brevet Cards mailed out to the organisers.
Then, assuming no electronic validation, those 450 batches of cards will be sent in for validation. Once validated those 450 batches of cards will be returned to the organisers for distribution back to riders.
Almost 2 parcels per weekday for the entire year, you're going to get to know your local postie very well and the local post office staff.
BRM events are roughly ~50 in non-PBP years and ~100 in PBP years. That adds to the admin overhead of the Recorder/Validation process (not sure if anything ever needs to be posted for these any more).
As for calendar event rider numbers (c.f. Breakdown by distance):
50 km 1118
100 km 10805
150 km 1190
200 km 6200
300 km 1006
400 km 647
600 km 456
1000 km 38
1200 km 27
for a total of 21487 Brevet Cards.
There were also a total of 5067 DIY/Perms (Perms 1764, DIY 3108, ECE 195) but most of the DIY and ECE rides will be 'virtual' brevet cards.
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7000 members + all the non members who enter... and of the latter, the vast majority don't give a monkey about brevet cards being validated or not, and seeing they can't compete in any category, it's all pointless anyway...
ALL events should have instant validation as default, unless the organiser has particular reasons that justify opting out.
All BRM events should have a cheaper BR instant validation option, for those who are not interested in ACP stuff and don't want to over-burden the system and wait 2 months for a card to get through the mail
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ALL events should have instant validation as default, unless the organiser has particular reasons that justify opting out.
You‘re free to put that proposal to the next AGM if you wish.
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It is good to hear that there are lots of volunteers available. I do have a longer term worry about volunteering activities - as my generation and those that follow it endure later state pension ages and less generous pension regimes, we're more likely to retire at 70+ rather than 60+ and consequently are likely to have no more than 10 years available to volunteer, rather the up to 20 (speaking like an actuary, so apologies to the 80+ aged volunteers who are still hugely effective).
For the permanent rides I organise (50 - 100 entries a year) the auto validation of 100km & 200km rides (the majority of my entries) and, especially, Paypal entries which have made cheques a thing of the past have made the role a lot easier (several minutes per entry), there would still be a benefit of auto-validation of 300km rides but it would be minutes a year.
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ALL events should have instant validation as default, unless the organiser has particular reasons that justify opting out.
What you describe isn't validation at all - there is no value to it.
From the figures Greenbank posts above, clearly Populaires and arguably 200s should be self-validated (by the Organiser) where possible, and AFAIK this is what currently happens and has done for several years.
BRM events are roughly ~50 in non-PBP years and ~100 in PBP years. That adds to the admin overhead of the Recorder/Validation process (not sure if anything ever needs to be posted for these any more).
Cards sent to Paris? Hasn't happened since the 1970s. Numbered stickers sent from Paris to AUK HQ? Went on until very recently - only 1 or 2 years ago I believe.
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Looking at the numbers above, there are over 2,000 cards to deal for events of 300 and above... to me that still looks like a relatively large number, which in this day and age could be reduced.
How many people REALLY need ACP validation outside PBP years?
I don't see why instant validation is "inferior" and unsuitable for longer distances... the process is the same, whether it's a 200 of a 600, as long as they are both BR.
As I said, one can get validation for DIY events, supplying questionable evidence... I could borrow a GPX file from someone else, or drive at leasure to a few control points and google the answer for the infos, using streetview for the more stubborn ones... it would take no effort at all to get a DIY 400 validated from the comfort of my sofa.
Surely a sticker on the day from the organiser is far superior to the above.
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ALL events should have instant validation as default, unless the organiser has particular reasons that justify opting out.
You‘re free to put that proposal to the next AGM if you wish.
As a point of order, the introduction of "instant validation" for AUK validated events is an operational not regulatory matter; the current scheme could be extended to 300km and longer events at any time, and given that it would impact at most about 20 events a year as not all organisers would want to take it up, it would be a trivial change to implement.
Previous requests to allow instant validation for 300km events have previously been rejected on the grounds that ' you have to draw the line somewhere' and 'nobody else has asked'.
It seems to me that if a line must be drawn it is in the wrong place, and apparently any change requires a public petition.
Views from AUK members are welcome on the AUK forum where contributions will have far more impact then discussing it here.
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What is validation? What is being validated and why?
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How many people REALLY need ACP validation outside PBP years?
I know need and want are both four letter words, but I'm not entirely convinced that anyone REALLY NEEDS to go on any of these bike ride audax things, let alone have any sort of validation.
it would take no effort at all to get a DIY 400 validated from the comfort of my sofa.
Leaving aside the fact that driving round a 400 - or at least to key points - does sound like a fair bit of effort, no reasonable validation process can eliminate cheating. What it can do is ensure that if you do want to cheat, it has to be an active process - you have to positively decide to do so. Personally, I think it's just a little bit sad if you do.
the current scheme could be extended to 300km and longer events at any time
It was discussed informally a couple of board meetings ago. Nothing was excluded for the future - but the wheels of AUK grind slowly ...
Views from AUK members are welcome on the AUK forum where contributions will have far more impact then discussing it here.
You've certainly got more chance of an official response from board members there.
And of course any members are welcome to attend board meetings as an observer. Let the secretary know in advance - next is in Birmingham on July 11th.
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The best things in life are worth waiting for.
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How many people REALLY need ACP validation outside PBP years?
I know need and want are both four letter words, but I'm not entirely convinced that anyone REALLY NEEDS to go on any of these bike ride audax things, let alone have any sort of validation.
The discussion doesn't need to go into semantics... my point is that I would be happier to get immediate validation for ALL the events i enter, relieve pressure on the system and make do without the ACP sticker. Some will need that sticker for whatever reason and that is fine too. I don't see the problem in running an event as BR/BRM with different entry fee
For the record, I am the only one who has so far intervened in the AUK forum thread
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It was discussed informally a couple of board meetings ago. Nothing was excluded for the future..
So it officially wasn’t discussed and no actions agreed; it was simply kicked into the long grass.
….but the wheels of AUK grind slowly ...
Every time I see this tired, lazy excuse for doing nothing, "I reach for my gun".
Will you arrange for the issue to be included in the board meeting agenda, with a bias for action.
This is not something that requires a great deal of discusion or effort to progress, and there are considerable benefits for those affected by it.
Action this day!
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I don't see the problem in running an event as BR/BRM with different entry fee
Not possible under AUK rules - that genuinely would need an AGM motion to change. It may also be against ACP rules.
(It used to be possible, but the AUK rules were changed to exclude it. Before my time, but I *think* the change may have been driven to bring us into conformity with ACP.)
[Edit following Manotea's response below.]
This is my understanding, but may well be complete bollocks. It's based on incomplete recollections of conversations.
I'm away at the moment but will try to clarify my thoughts when I have an opportunity. Citations or withdrawal at that time.
[Further edit]
Yeah, I was talking bollocks. Confusion of rules around *riders* not being on two concurrent events, together with prohibitions on setting up new final controls at exactly the nominal distance on overlength events as the time deadline approached, with the intent of validating riders that had done (say) 600km in 40 hours but would have been out of time at the 625km arrivee.
I am clearly best ignored ...
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I don't see the problem in running an event as BR/BRM with different entry fee
Not possible under AUK rules - that genuinely would need an AGM motion to change. It may also be against ACP rules.
(It used to be possible, but the AUK rules were changed to exclude it. Before my time, but I *think* the change may have been driven to bring us into conformity with ACP.)
Citation please, as I think this comes under the heading of "Disinformation"
Leaving aside the 'no consolation prize' thing, whilst AUK systems arent designed to cope with events with multiple validation criteria, BR and BRM versions of the event could be scheduled to run simultaneously, the only restriction being that riders could only enter one of them. Beyond that, Orgs decide entry fees, not AUK, so the BR event could be charged at (say) £10 and the BRM event at £20.
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Citation please, as I think this comes under the heading of "Disinformation"
Leaving aside the 'consolation prize' shibbolith , whilst AUK systems arent designed to cope with events with multiple validation criteria, BR and BRM versions of the event could be scheduled to run simultaneously, the only restriction being that riders could only enter one of them, and Orgs decide entry fees, not AUK, so the BR event could be charged at (say) £10 and the BRM event at £20.
Doubtless pointing this out will provoke those responsible to embark on a rash of pronouncements and rule making (good luck with that); the larger point is that if the Board responded to reasonable requests in a timely manner none of this would be necessary.
Is the difference in BR vs BRM really worth €10?
The question I would have here is, what would happen if you ran the BR and BRM version of an event both at the same time, but charged the same for both? What would the punters say?
The next question I have is, why do you need validation of your brevett so fast anyway? Does it matter if it takes a while to get your card back?
From what I understand of the Dutch setup (admittedly much smaller pool of events, and smaller pool of riders), Brevet cards are brought along to events during the season in the hope that a rider will be at the event and can pick it up post free, and then at the end of the season, any not delivered thus, are sent out by post. If you know where to look, the homologation sheet is available online so you can see you've been validated sooner, but the card takes a bit longer. The Homologation sheet is useful, even tho I don't yet have my card back from my March madness ride, the sheet being available online was enough for the recorder of AUK to add my Dutch BRM to my record.
J
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I don't see the problem in running an event as BR/BRM with different entry fee
Not possible under AUK rules - that genuinely would need an AGM motion to change. It may also be against ACP rules.
(It used to be possible, but the AUK rules were changed to exclude it. Before my time, but I *think* the change may have been driven to bring us into conformity with ACP.)
Even if it was not possible... it's a technicality... all the organiser needs to do is to have two separate events which are the same event... How many TINAT were offered both as BR and BP?
Incidentally that could be introduced as a pilot and would give a wealth of insight on how many people are actually interested in ACP validation, when it comes as an extra...
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Incidentally that could be introduced as a pilot and would give a wealth of insight on how many people are actually interested in ACP validation, when it comes as an extra...
Doesn't that depend on how much the extra is? If it's €1? or €3 or €5 or €10. Depending on how much the extra is, depends on how many people are likely to care. And if you're going to do this experiment, you should probably do one where you charge the same for both by way of a control.
I think this also needs to be done along side an explanation of what ACP accreditation actually gets you. Sure you can ride this 600 as a BR, you'll get the sticker back on your card instantly. But you can't use it towards your Randonneur 5000 award you were working on. If you don't do this, you're gonna get a lot of people screaming a year down the line when they realise that they saved €2 on a couple of rides, only to have to do them again to get the award they were working towards.
J
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Incidentally that could be introduced as a pilot and would give a wealth of insight on how many people are actually interested in ACP validation, when it comes as an extra...
Doesn't that depend on how much the extra is? If it's €1? or €3 or €5 or €10. Depending on how much the extra is, depends on how many people are likely to care. And if you're going to do this experiment, you should probably do one where you charge the same for both by way of a control.
I think this also needs to be done along side an explanation of what ACP accreditation actually gets you. Sure you can ride this 600 as a BR, you'll get the sticker back on your card instantly. But you can't use it towards your Randonneur 5000 award you were working on. If you don't do this, you're gonna get a lot of people screaming a year down the line when they realise that they saved €2 on a couple of rides, only to have to do them again to get the award they were working towards.
J
The point is that in the UK most AUK members are focused on the AUK wards; pursuing ACP awards is very much a niche activity, mainly populated by, ahem, the more senior members of AUK.
It's not actually about the money, it's about Organisers having the option to choose between AUK Validation (Brevet Card returned on the day) or ACP validation (Brevet Card returned several weeks later with additional costs and effort for all concerned).
AUK policy is to encourage larger and better supported events; as events get larger these operational issue become more of an issue. Running an event with several hundred riders is a completly different experience to running an event with 50. Not many people know that.
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ISTM the reason the Board is dragging its feet on this is because there is a lobby which regards AUKs primary reason for existing being to support ACP validated activies in the UK and would see *ALL* Randonneur events run as BRMs.
Now, ACP requires Brevet Cards, and that is unlikely to change any time soon, and unlike AUK validation, ACP validation involves numbered stickers, and those stickers are attached by the validation secretaries.
Yes, Orgs could attach the ACP stickers but as with any manual process the likelihood of errors occurring is so high (and the process of resolving them so onerous, especially once the results have been recorded with ACP) that it probably is best handled centrally by the Validation Secretaries.
As it happens, the current practice of requiring the Valsecs to process Brevets for 300km+ events acts to encourage such events to be run as BRMs, because as the brevet cards have to be returned to base regardless there is no benefit in running the events as BRs. Which suits the ACP lobby just fine.
It does however disregard the thriving interest in AUK BR events and awards and rather acts as a sea-anchor against operational improvements such as instant validation.
Where we are is that AUK is positioning itself to employ staffers to handle centralised validation; once in place AUK would be positioned to withdraw instant validation for 200km events (so much simpler than refining the process to reduce or even eliminate operational overheads in the first place).
That instant validation is popular with riders and saves a great deal of effort and costs for organisers isn't a concern.
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ISTM the reason the Board is dragging its feet on this is because there is a lobby which regards AUKs primary reason for existing being to support ACP validated activies in the UK and would see *ALL* Randonneur events run as BRMs.
[Big snip]
Where we are is that AUK is positioning itself to employ staffers to handle centralised validation; once in place AUK would be positioned to withdraw instant validation for 200km events.
That this would be unpopular with riders and create a great deal more work and cost for organisers wouldn’t be a factor.
And you accuse me of disinformation!
*None* of this accords with my perception.
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ISTM the reason the Board is dragging its feet on this is because there is a lobby which regards AUKs primary reason for existing being to support ACP validated activies in the UK and would see *ALL* Randonneur events run as BRMs.
[Big snip]
Where we are is that AUK is positioning itself to employ staffers to handle centralised validation; once in place AUK would be positioned to withdraw instant validation for 200km events.
That this would be unpopular with riders and create a great deal more work and cost for organisers wouldn’t be a factor.
And you accuse me of disinformation!
*None* of this accords with my perception.
Some board members have been mooting elements of this - y'know, informally and unminuted - for quite some time.
I'm just joining the dots and generally looking to help move things along...
Happy to hear counter arguements. :)
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I tend to agree with Manotea, in that there is a perception in the highest spheres that everything revolves around ACP/PBP, whereas at "grassroot" level the reality is very different.
AUK is a self sufficient, self worth organisation that would survive very well even if ACP were to collapse tomorrow and PBP were to fold next year. Less than 10% of members enter PBP and probably an even smaller proportion are interested in ACP validation 75% of the time.
Personally, I think AUk should focus their effort on what happens in Rutland today, rather than what happens in Paris next year. People who want to go to Paris next year will find their way, they are surely motivated enough to get there without the need to turn every mile of tarmac into BRM hunting ground.
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Ah, Britain. The Island...
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Ah, Britain. The Island...
For the record, I am not British, so I am not here waving Brext flags... I just think when all your concerns are around an event run in france and you can't organise a 400 National event in the UK... maybe your priorities are wrong
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Ah, Britain. The Island...
Several islands actually...
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Personally, I think AUk should focus their effort on what happens in Rutland today, rather than what happens in Paris next year.
My perception is that board meetings at least are about a third focussed on what is going on in Rutland today, a third focussed on ensuring that it can be developed to also go on in Rotherham in two or five years' time, and a third focussed on making organisers and riders lives easier.
The ACP relationship and the road to PBP really doesn't take up a lot of time.
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Do Rutland and Rotherham have some significance in Audax that I didn't know of? 😉
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The ACP relationship and the road to PBP really doesn't take up a lot of time.
Admittecly, I have no idea, however, from what I read the all validation process by mail is a lot of work, work that certainly (as pointed out by others) will put off the next generation from doing. It seems to me that if you take out BRM validation, this work could be virtually eliminated, bar a few X rated events that have a postal finish.
That being the case, we should ask ourselves whether and WHEN we do need this ACP validation.
The necessity for a double check of brevet cards is something I do not buy into... it is a system which is in essence based on trust, no matter how many layers you want to add
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I'm somewhat tired at the moment so my memory isn't as sharp as it should be, but I recall the rationale for our events being recorded as BRMs was to demonstrate to the ACP that AUK riders did actually do quite a lot of rides, ahead of (I think it was PBP 2011) where there was talk of national quotas based on the number of brevets ridden in that country. So rides became BRM every year instead of once every 4 years. Two questions
1) Is my weary mind correct on this case?
2) If so, is it still the case, or have the ACP moved on from this position?
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Do Rutland and Rotherham have some significance in Audax that I didn't know of? 😉
It's the top-secret plan for next year's National 400 ;)
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/27917912 (https://ridewithgps.com/routes/27917912)
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Do Rutland and Rotherham have some significance in Audax that I didn't know of? 😉
It's the top-secret plan for next year's National 400 ;)
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/27917912 (https://ridewithgps.com/routes/27917912)
Very clever indeed... ;D
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:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Ah, Britain. The Island...
Several islands actually...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain - "Great Britain, also known as Britain, is a large island in the north Atlantic Ocean"
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Ok thread has diverted a bit .. but bringing my thoughts into this BRM thingy. From my LEL financial point of view I imagine PBP making a significant surplus every 4 years , (or finding a way to disburse such surplus that is undisclosed to us) .. and if you add in the BRM validation fees every year .. the sheer scale of the financial surpluses over in France ..should be staggering. What actually happens to these sums.. who knows ... anyone able to contribute an answer?
We can see AUK piling up cash .. and raise questions about the the Boards decisions and plans if we wish to .. but ACP never disclose any financial information as far as I know ... but it is where we are paying money to .. and for what?
Left to myself I would not get involved in BRMs except for those who wish to have them in PBP and the preceding year, and those individuals wanting BRM validation would pay a little more to have their ride as a BRM ride.
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Ok thread has diverted a bit .. but bringing my thoughts into this BRM thingy. From my LEL financial point of view I imagine PBP making a significant surplus every 4 years , (or finding a way to disburse such surplus that is undisclosed to us) .. and if you add in the BRM validation fees every year .. the sheer scale of the financial surpluses over in France ..should be staggering. What actually happens to these sums.. who knows ... anyone able to contribute an answer?
We can see AUK piling up cash .. and raise questions about the the Boards decisions and plans if we wish to .. but ACP never disclose any financial information as far as I know ... but it is where we are paying money to .. and for what?
Left to myself I would not get involved in BRMs except for those who wish to have them in PBP and the preceding year, and those individuals wanting BRM validation would pay a little more to have their ride as a BRM ride.
Exactly... :thumbsup:
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I've made a pitch for instant validation for 300km events on the AUK Forum.
Whilst it may well have cropped up in informal conversations before, the pitch in AUK forum in the early hours of this morning, is the first formal suggestion to the Board along these lines that I can recall. Requests to the Validation Secretaries, who are after all delegates, and operate only along the guidelines handed down by the Board, don't count!
To then read, less than 12 hours later on here, that the 'Board is dragging is feet on this' along with what appears to be an attempt to conflate & confuse the issue with the BR/BRM debate is at best unhelpful, at worst somewhat offensive to the volunteers concerned.
If anyone wants the Board to consider changing the balance between BRs and BRMs in some way, then a separate pitch in the AUK forum would be appropriate.
Just for the record though, there is no AUK policy to prioritise BRMs over BRs except in PBP years when there is a big demand for BRM as qualifiers, and it doesn't cost the organiser any more to have their events as BRM than it does to have them as BR.
BRMs do still create a small amount of extra workload for the validation team, but it is far less of a burden than the scrutiny required of events created by a new organisers (and sorting out the mayhem of some experienced organisers** who should know better).
** not posters on this thread I hasten to add.
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Not read through all the posts, but what I would like to see is certainly a bit more information on the perms, you look at rides "local to me" and get for example a ride that starts over 200 miles away with nothing more than DIY Permanent series as a title with no description that is any use to me. I would like to know where I'm riding to before committing.
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Not read through all the posts, but what I would like to see is certainly a bit more information on the perms, you look at rides "local to me" and get for example a ride that starts over 200 miles away with nothing more than DIY Permanent series as a title with no description that is any use to me. I would like to know where I'm riding to before committing.
Which goes back to my older point about info... no point in knowing that a ride starts in Poynton, if that's all you get
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The Kevin Bacon of AUK discussions ;D
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On the issue of BR/BRM. I got my ACP Randonneur 5000 award earlier this year and I am really pleased to have done so. With a bit more work over the coming years I may be able to get the 10000 (especially now we have a Super Randonee available in the UK). These awards are made possible by UK rides being given BRM status and whilst I wouldn't want to see all rides over 200 being BRM, the current mix of BR and BRM feels about right so I'd favour leaving it as it is.
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On the issue of BR/BRM. I got my ACP Randonneur 5000 award earlier this year and I am really pleased to have done so. With a bit more work over the coming years I may be able to get the 10000 (especially now we have a Super Randonee available in the UK). These awards are made possible by UK rides being given BRM status and whilst I wouldn't want to see all rides over 200 being BRM, the current mix of BR and BRM feels about right so I'd favour leaving it as it is.
If the new validation secretary is happy to look at 500 events and therefore receive two packages a day of cards to look over, then I also see no reason to change things... I am trying to figure who would want to do that The role description mentions particular attention to longer events and BRM.
Out of curiosity, if there was an equivalent R5000 only endorsed by AUK and therefore achievable with BR, would you not go for it?
It seems to me the ACP sticker is just an extra tax to get nothing in return
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Out of curiosity, if there was an equivalent R5000 only endorsed by AUK and therefore achievable with BR, would you not go for it?
It seems to me the ACP sticker is just an extra tax to get nothing in return
Well, I guess that the Brevet 5000 and 25000 are the nearest equivalents. Struggling to rationalise the attraction of the ACP awards but it's something about the linkage between ACP and PBP and the history therein, sorry if that sounds a bit vague.
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There is nothing wrong with that... we would all prefer to have an achievement validated by an older institution... I work in the business of "printing degrees" and I can tell you all kids want to go to Oxford and Cambridge.
Here though is a bit different, because the validation from the old institution is worthless... the real problem is all the prehistoric administration that comes with it and someone has to do.
AUK buys into the all ACP prestige thing, in my opinion we should be a bit more skeptical and look at what we get for our money. If 2000 brevets are validated every year through ACP, that's a few grand that could be spent in a different way... like organising a grand Grand National event, or two
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AUK buys into the all ACP prestige thing, in my opinion we should be a bit more skeptical and look at what we get for our money. If 2000 brevets are validated every year through ACP, that's a few grand that could be spent in a different way... like organising a grand Grand National event, or two
How about hiring a bus that could turn up at every event with the above slogan written on the side to get people to sign into this idea, then we could have a referendum?
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AUK buys into the all ACP prestige thing, in my opinion we should be a bit more skeptical and look at what we get for our money. If 2000 brevets are validated every year through ACP, that's a few grand that could be spent in a different way... like organising a grand Grand National event, or two
How about hiring a bus that could turn up at every event with the above slogan written on the side to get people to sign into this idea, then we could have a referendum?
Then wait an indeterminate length of time for the result to be actioned. And then only if the powers that be agree you mean?
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ACP validation is definitely a nice to have, not just because of the awards. It is good to feel like your rides are part of a worldwide community held in an ancient register that goes back over a century. But obviously the ACP will have to keep up with the times with validation efficiency if this is going to have a sustainable future.
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ACP validation is definitely a nice to have, not just because of the awards. It is good to feel like your rides are part of a worldwide community held in an ancient register that goes back over a century. But obviously the ACP will have to keep up with the times with validation efficiency if this is going to have a sustainable future.
In order to have my marriage validated in another country I had to provide the certificate. But the original was not enough, it had to be validated by means of an "apostille" (interestingly a French word), a sticker much like the ACP one... I paid 35 pounds for the privilege of turning an original into an original plus sticker.
I see ACP validation very much in the same way. It must be great for ACP to just print stickers, charge a fortune for them and let others do the actual work... I can see that being a very profitable business to be involved in.
IF ACP validation actually meant anything, that would be desirable, but these cards no longer travel to Paris, they just get stickered a second time in the UK... I don't get the appeal
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it should be clear from this thread that lots of riders DO see the appeal of BRM validation.
get your blinkers off. It's a big club - you may need to get used to others not seeing things exactly as you do.
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ACP validation is definitely a nice to have, not just because of the awards. It is good to feel like your rides are part of a worldwide community held in an ancient register that goes back over a century. But obviously the ACP will have to keep up with the times with validation efficiency if this is going to have a sustainable future.
This, so much this.
Audaxing, or more commonly Randonneuring, is a world wide community of riders who get together with the simple aim of riding a long way. By operating to a standard mode of operation, laid down by an internationally recognised organisation, we become something greater than the sum of our parts.
I can do a BRM in 4 countries, and know that they will all be done in the same standard way, recognised by a single body, that allows me to work towards attainable goals. Having AUK creating very similar awards to ACP's to me is just stupid island mentality.
Sure there may be some issues with the scalability of the work flow when it comes to validating those cards. It is the Validation of them and contribution to a central register that is older than the UN, older than ISO, older than many institutions. That is something special.
Those moaning about the transfer of money to Paris. Listen to your selves. We're not talking about you paying 100 quid to have your card validated by ACP. It's pennies for every card. Audax is staggeringly good value, and to throw away so much tradition and community over pennies is just ridiculous. We're seeing it at a national level with our ridiculous excuse for a government, lets not be doing it as well with our hobby.
I joined AUK, even tho I am not in the UK, because of it being part of that international community, without the connection to ACP and randonneurs across the road, it's just riding a bike between cafes.
J
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Hear hear.
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it should be clear from this thread that lots of riders DO see the appeal of BRM validation.
get your blinkers off. It's a big club - you may need to get used to others not seeing things exactly as you do.
Just discussing ideas Mattc, not wanting to impose anything on anyone, but equally it would be nice to have this conversation and see where it leads...
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it should be clear from this thread that lots of riders DO see the appeal of BRM validation.
get your blinkers off. It's a big club - you may need to get used to others not seeing things exactly as you do.
Just discussing ideas Mattc, not wanting to impose anything on anyone, but equally it would be nice to have this conversation and see where it leads...
do you think repeatedly telling people that what they value is worthless is a worthwhile conversation?
It's like proposing a ban on Justin Bieber records.
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Yesterday I asked:
What is validation? What is being validated and why?
I'm not really any the wiser yet. As far as I can tell, riders get to the arrivee, the organiser or their proxies check the stamps, receipt, infos, and compile a list of finishers which is submitted to AUK and where appropriate to ACP. Obviously ACP want to be assured that their affiliates are applying procedures correctly, so they must do some checking. And presumably AUK feel a need to make sure their organisers aren't making any howlers, such as putting people on the finishing list when they don't belong there, leaving them off when they do or maybe getting times or distances wrong. But those would be more like occasional checks or when concerns are raised. It sounds as though the validation people are talking about is something more than this, but what?
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it should be clear from this thread that lots of riders DO see the appeal of BRM validation.
get your blinkers off. It's a big club - you may need to get used to others not seeing things exactly as you do.
Just discussing ideas Mattc, not wanting to impose anything on anyone, but equally it would be nice to have this conversation and see where it leads...
do you think repeatedly telling people that what they value is worthless is a worthwhile conversation?
It's like proposing a ban on Justin Bieber records.
Admittedly, I might be a bit forceful in putting my points across...
Can we settle on proposing a ban to Justin Bieber's music in public places? Along the lines of the smoke ban ;D
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Yesterday I asked:
What is validation? What is being validated and why?
I'm not really any the wiser yet. As far as I can tell, riders get to the arrivee, the organiser or their proxies check the stamps, receipt, infos, and compile a list of finishers which is submitted to AUK and where appropriate to ACP. Obviously ACP want to be assured that their affiliates are applying procedures correctly, so they must do some checking. And presumably AUK feel a need to make sure their organisers aren't making any howlers, such as putting people on the finishing list when they don't belong there, leaving them off when they do or maybe getting times or distances wrong. But those would be more like occasional checks or when concerns are raised. It sounds as though the validation people are talking about is something more than this, but what?
From the role description in the "job advert" my understanding is that BRM and long events (300+? 400+? 600+?) require a detailed level of scrutiny, including scrutiny of the evidence submitted, so I would imagine receipts and such things.
Other events (200 BR and BP? ) should only require double checking of the summary sheets but no double checking of the evidence.
Either way, it would appear that anything that is not validated on the spot, makes its way as a parcel to the validators and then back to the organiser
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ACP validation is definitely a nice to have, not just because of the awards. It is good to feel like your rides are part of a worldwide community held in an ancient register that goes back over a century. But obviously the ACP will have to keep up with the times with validation efficiency if this is going to have a sustainable future.
This, so much this.
Audaxing, or more commonly Randonneuring, is a world wide community of riders who get together with the simple aim of riding a long way. By operating to a standard mode of operation, laid down by an internationally recognised organisation, we become something greater than the sum of our parts.
I can do a BRM in 4 countries, and know that they will all be done in the same standard way, recognised by a single body, that allows me to work towards attainable goals. Having AUK creating very similar awards to ACP's to me is just stupid island mentality.
Sure there may be some issues with the scalability of the work flow when it comes to validating those cards. It is the Validation of them and contribution to a central register that is older than the UN, older than ISO, older than many institutions. That is something special.
Those moaning about the transfer of money to Paris. Listen to your selves. We're not talking about you paying 100 quid to have your card validated by ACP. It's pennies for every card. Audax is staggeringly good value, and to throw away so much tradition and community over pennies is just ridiculous. We're seeing it at a national level with our ridiculous excuse for a government, lets not be doing it as well with our hobby.
I joined AUK, even tho I am not in the UK, because of it being part of that international community, without the connection to ACP and randonneurs across the road, it's just riding a bike between cafes.
J
As I said, if AUK finds someone willing to deal with 500 parcels of cards every year, then there is no problem... if they don't, then instant validation might have to become the norm and ACP validation a tool to be used on rare occasions
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It's nothing like 500 events a year where parcels of cards get sent to and fro.
Instant validation and the other events where organisers get their stickers without having to send cards in probably accounts for something like half that number - maybe a bit more.
FWIW ACP's process of validation is extremely slick & automated. That can be seen as a good thing: less work by the national validation teams; or as bad thing: that ACP do even less work than before for their validation fees.
Can we settle on proposing a ban to Justin Bieber's music in public places? Along the lines of the smoke ban ;D
Yes - so long as you have a get out clause for consenting adults in private. Like musical taste, Audax is broad spectrum...
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FWIW ACP's process of validation is extremely slick & automated. That can be seen as a good thing: less work by the national validation teams; or as bad thing: that ACP do even less work than before for their validation fees.
Probably all they do is updating their own records... which they seem to do with a delay of 2 years or so... :thumbsup:
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I'm somewhat tired at the moment so my memory isn't as sharp as it should be, but I recall the rationale for our events being recorded as BRMs was to demonstrate to the ACP that AUK riders did actually do quite a lot of rides, ahead of (I think it was PBP 2011) where there was talk of national quotas based on the number of brevets ridden in that country. So rides became BRM every year instead of once every 4 years.
You have to bear in mind that every validated BRM is income for ACP (in theory at any rate**) and so their motivations for promoting BRM over BR are simple enough to understand, and what they actually tell us can be taken with a pinch of salt.
In fact, going back a bit further in time, it was ACP who encouraged (well, demanded really) AUK to run their own, non-BRM events. This was long before PCs, Excel and the Internet, and the rapid growth of activity within AUK was proving to be simply too much for ACP (still using quill pen and ledger) to cope with. They cried "Enough, no more!" and so BRs were born. Now - as has been noted, ACP have a very slick hands-off operation, and so they naturally welcome as many BRMs (income) as they can get.
** ICBW, but I think it's the case that AUK pay an agreed flat rate lump sum per year, so not actually 'per validation'.
Yesterday I asked:
What is validation? What is being validated and why?
I'm not really any the wiser yet. As far as I can tell, riders get to the arrivee, the organiser or their proxies check the stamps, receipt, infos, and compile a list of finishers which is submitted to AUK and where appropriate to ACP. Obviously ACP want to be assured that their affiliates are applying procedures correctly, so they must do some checking. And presumably AUK feel a need to make sure their organisers aren't making any howlers, such as putting people on the finishing list when they don't belong there, leaving them off when they do or maybe getting times or distances wrong. But those would be more like occasional checks or when concerns are raised. It sounds as though the validation people are talking about is something more than this, but what?
From the role description in the "job advert" my understanding is that BRM and long events (300+? 400+? 600+?) require a detailed level of scrutiny, including scrutiny of the evidence submitted, so I would imagine receipts and such things.
Job ad notwithstanding, and even knowing the fine and consciencious people who currently do the job, I think Cudzo's summary is a fairly good description of what does actually go on. To imagine intense scrutiny of endless piles of grubby brevet cards and till receipts is ingenuous.
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There is nothing wrong with that... we would all prefer to have an achievement validated by an older institution... I work in the business of "printing degrees" and I can tell you all kids want to go to Oxford and Cambridge.
Here though is a bit different, because the validation from the old institution is worthless... the real problem is all the prehistoric administration that comes with it and someone has to do.
AUK buys into the all ACP prestige thing, in my opinion we should be a bit more skeptical and look at what we get for our money. If 2000 brevets are validated every year through ACP, that's a few grand that could be spent in a different way... like organising a grand Grand National event, or two
But what do you actually get for your money* from AUK with BR-only validation?
*(The portion of the money that actually goes to AUK that is, not the organiser.)
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But what do you actually get for your money* from AUK with BR-only validation?
*(The portion of the money that actually goes to AUK that is, not the organiser.)
It is a fair question... you get validation of a brevet card... in essence ACP validates the validation... that is why I am not convinced it adds anything that isn't already there... it's the apostille I mentioned earlier.
I would understand choosing one or the other, but why both?
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It is a fair question... you get validation of a brevet card... in essence ACP validates the validation... that is why I am not convinced it adds anything that isn't already there... it's the apostille I mentioned earlier.
I would understand choosing one or the other, but why both?
I mean I'm the sort of person that sets the garmin to 'don't record', I'm not a big one for souvenirs - I don't subscribe to the view that if a ride isn't recorded it didn't happen - so I understand if others have a different perspective, but why do I need any validation, apart from for PBP qualifiers...
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It is a fair question... you get validation of a brevet card... in essence ACP validates the validation... that is why I am not convinced it adds anything that isn't already there... it's the apostille I mentioned earlier.
I would understand choosing one or the other, but why both?
I mean I'm the sort of person that sets the garmin to 'don't record', I'm not a big one for souvenirs - I don't subscribe to the view that if a ride isn't recorded it didn't happen - so I understand if others have a different perspective, but why do I need any validation, apart from for PBP qualifiers...
You don't... but if you want to ride BCM and take advantage of the facilities at Kings/Menai/Aberhaef, then you need to do it via AUK, which comes with validation... you might care about it or not. Same applies to many iconic calendar rides. Of course you can ride the same roads at any time without validation or time restrictions and crucially without support from all the volunteers who make the events special.
I have to admit I have been sucked in the all awards saga and I have even begun collecting AAA points, so I fully understand those who go for ACP awards in the absence of an AUK equivalent, although my suspicion is that the number is so tiny that doesn't grant virtually all 300+ km brevets in the calendar to be ACP validated, as it is the case currently.
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fwiw, i did an (unofficial*) audax ride last weekend, one commercial control and five infos. i've missed one info and retraced back to ask several locals where a particular building was, this has cost me ten or so minutes. i could have easily carried on without bothering filling in the card (especially as there was no validation at the end) like several other riders did, but by entering the ride i feel obliged to play by the rules, at least to respect the organiser's efforts of route checking, card printing, coming up with info questions. and it feels good to see a fully filled in brevet card on completion - it's like painting a second eye on a daruma doll.
*a no-cost organised ride that could be entered as a dyi audax, if there was a wish
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A daruma doll (in case you were wondering :) )
"Daruma dolls are seen as a symbol of perseverance and good luck, making them a popular gift of encouragement. The doll has also been commercialized by many Buddhist temples to use alongside the setting of goals. When purchased, the figure's eyes are both blank white. A user will then select a goal or wish and paint in one of the figure's two eyes. Once the desired goal is achieved, the second eye is filled in."
(http://muza-chan.net/aj/poze-weblog7/daruma-dolls-shorinzan-takasaki-1.jpg)
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It is a fair question... you get validation of a brevet card... in essence ACP validates the validation... that is why I am not convinced it adds anything that isn't already there... it's the apostille I mentioned earlier.
I would understand choosing one or the other, but why both?
I mean I'm the sort of person that sets the garmin to 'don't record', I'm not a big one for souvenirs - I don't subscribe to the view that if a ride isn't recorded it didn't happen - so I understand if others have a different perspective, but why do I need any validation, apart from for PBP qualifiers...
You don't... but if you want to ride BCM and take advantage of the facilities at Kings/Menai/Aberhaef, then you need to do it via AUK, which comes with validation...
I know... but they are things the organiser, not auk, provides. Auk doesn't actually bring anything to the table. I almost imagine a union breaking out among a few wildcat organisers saying "hey lads, you know what - we don't need them, we can go it alone" ;D
Look at The Great Escape ride - it used to be an audax, but it fell out with auk, and, well, Escaped. Being in London it's popular enough that it doesn't need the attraction of auk validation to attract enough riders, so it's now an organised 200km ride, but that isn't an audax. The Bryan Chapman is an example of one that is popular enough that it could easily do the same, if the organiser didn't care about brown nosing auk that is, which you couldn't blame him if he did, but the point remains that it could stand on its own two feet without auk validation.
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The Bryan Chapman is an example of one that is popular enough that it could easily do the same, if the organiser didn't care about brown nosing auk that is
I don't know him at all, but I suspect Richie Tout would be a little offended at your suggestion he's a brown noser.
I *really* think you should withdraw that.
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It was discussed informally a couple of board meetings ago. Nothing was excluded for the future..
So it officially wasn’t discussed and no actions agreed; it was simply kicked into the long grass.
….but the wheels of AUK grind slowly ...
Every time I see this tired, lazy excuse for doing nothing, "I reach for my gun".
Some might think that was a deliberately confrontational tone and an attempt to mischaracterise the sorts of discussions that happen in and around any sort of meeting.
I note that - so far - two other organisers have weighed in on the thread you started on the AUK forum.
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The Bryan Chapman is an example of one that is popular enough that it could easily do the same, if the organiser didn't care about brown nosing auk that is
I don't know him at all, but I suspect Richie Tout would be a little offended at your suggestion he's a brown noser.
I *really* think you should withdraw that.
:-\
I said IF he was, i.e. hypothetically - but for the avoidance of doubt, I'm certainly not suggesting he is.
The point was about the role of [popular ride organiser], not about the current individual incumbent of that role anyway.
I sort of think you might just have been trying to 'win on the internet' by reading too much into my comment and grasping at an opportunity to take offence where no offence is needed, or was intended, but apologies for any genuine offence.
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It was discussed informally a couple of board meetings ago. Nothing was excluded for the future..
So it officially wasn’t discussed and no actions agreed; it was simply kicked into the long grass.
….but the wheels of AUK grind slowly ...
Every time I see this tired, lazy excuse for doing nothing, "I reach for my gun".
Some might think that was a deliberately confrontational tone and an attempt to mischaracterise the sorts of discussions that happen in and around any sort of meeting.
I note that - so far - two other organisers have weighed in on the thread you started on the AUK forum.
No mischaractisation but confrontational? To a certain extent... however sometimes to get things done you have to shake things up.
Yes, some things take time, mainly because of developmental constraints, others can be quickly resolved through the AUK forum, by email or even (shudder), a phone call.
But in a world where everybody is strapped for time, this pompous* 'grinding slowly' trope which is trotted out on a regular basis is akin to telling people volunteers to piss off.
What it certainly doesn't do is convey any sense of urgency or 'bias for action'
*a general comment not directed at JS who is anything but.
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Heaven preserve us from shouty people.
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Heaven preserve us from shouty people.
+1
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Look at The Great Escape ride - it used to be an audax, but it fell out with auk, and, well, Escaped.
AIUI, the problem was that the club organising it failed to submit numerous brevet cards to be validated, resulting in those riders that were bothered about that aspect getting annoyed. Hence AUK wasn't willing to approve the subsequent staging. It's a shame as I imagine some of those taking part might have gone on to participate in other AUK rides. I rode their other event, The Italian Job in the same year and, while it was an uninspiring route by AUK standards, almost everyone that I spoke to said they would be interested in similar rides.
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AIUI, the problem was that the club organising it failed to submit numerous brevet cards to be validated, resulting in those riders that were bothered about that aspect getting annoyed. Hence AUK wasn't willing to approve the subsequent staging. It's a shame as I imagine some of those taking part might have gone on to participate in other AUK rides. I rode their other event, The Italian Job in the same year and, while it was an uninspiring route by AUK standards, almost everyone that I spoke to said they would be interested in similar rides.
I'm a member of said club (although I had zero involvement in organising either event) and it's annoying this is the way it went. It'd be nice if one or both could be made into audaxes again - I'd be happy to make sure proper processes are followed.
The thing is I'm not sure what would be in it for the club - IIRC both rides had an annoying number of info controls and explaining brevet cards to people was a chore. And the entry process via the British Cycling website is more friendly for non-members than AUK. There must be some extra entries by virtue of the AUK calendar but my gut feeling most came through other channels. I don't know how fees compare.
And I agree the Italian Job route does suck, though the Great Escape is lovely.
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Yesterday I asked:
What is validation? What is being validated and why?
I'm not really any the wiser yet. As far as I can tell, riders get to the arrivee, the organiser or their proxies check the stamps, receipt, infos, and compile a list of finishers which is submitted to AUK and where appropriate to ACP. Obviously ACP want to be assured that their affiliates are applying procedures correctly, so they must do some checking. And presumably AUK feel a need to make sure their organisers aren't making any howlers, such as putting people on the finishing list when they don't belong there, leaving them off when they do or maybe getting times or distances wrong. But those would be more like occasional checks or when concerns are raised. It sounds as though the validation people are talking about is something more than this, but what?
From the role description in the "job advert" my understanding is that BRM and long events (300+? 400+? 600+?) require a detailed level of scrutiny, including scrutiny of the evidence submitted, so I would imagine receipts and such things.
Job ad notwithstanding, and even knowing the fine and consciencious people who currently do the job, I think Cudzo's summary is a fairly good description of what does actually go on. To imagine intense scrutiny of endless piles of grubby brevet cards and till receipts is ingenuous.
Thanks for the answers.
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Regarding BRM v BR v BP: I'd have said the major difference for most riders (as opposed to the organisers or the administrative bodies) is the different approach to distance and time allowances. Though I'm not sure the maximum 5% over-distance rule is actually enforced!
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AIUI, the problem was that the club organising it failed to submit numerous brevet cards to be validated, resulting in those riders that were bothered about that aspect getting annoyed. Hence AUK wasn't willing to approve the subsequent staging. It's a shame as I imagine some of those taking part might have gone on to participate in other AUK rides. I rode their other event, The Italian Job in the same year and, while it was an uninspiring route by AUK standards, almost everyone that I spoke to said they would be interested in similar rides.
I'm a member of said club (although I had zero involvement in organising either event) and it's annoying this is the way it went. It'd be nice if one or both could be made into audaxes again - I'd be happy to make sure proper processes are followed.
The thing is I'm not sure what would be in it for the club - IIRC both rides had an annoying number of info controls and explaining brevet cards to people was a chore. And the entry process via the British Cycling website is more friendly for non-members than AUK. There must be some extra entries by virtue of the AUK calendar but my gut feeling most came through other channels. I don't know how fees compare.
And I agree the Italian Job route does suck, though the Great Escape is lovely.
IIRC the Great Escape was run under AUK auspices on three occasions. The validation team was very patient in answering questions from the organiser after the first slightly disorganised running. Questions, I might add, that were already fully dealt with in the organiser's handbook - and were 'unclear' despite help being offered pre-event by mentor and regional events team delegate.
Regrettably lessons were not learned and things went from bad to worse in subsequent offerings. The validation team spent an inordinate amount of time sorting what it could from the shambles of the last occasion and breathed a sigh of relief when the events team agreed that no further events would be accepted onto the calendar from that organiser.
The AUK process may well not be as slick as BC, but as Manotea consistently demonstrates, it is certainly possible to run an AUK event from that London, with a large number of entrants, including a significant number of non-members.