Yet Another Cycling Forum
Off Topic => The Pub => Topic started by: Beardy on 10 July, 2018, 11:31:05 am
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The almost super human efforts of the international team of rescuers is hopefully coming to an end.
They've got 11 out now, so probably just one boy and the coach left.
The dscipline that the divers and other rescuers have demonstrated over the last three days has been amazing as well. They need teh rest and decompression time but teh temptation to keep going while there are still people to rescue must be almost unbarable.
My thoughts are with the divers and rescue team as tehy work to bring the last two out.
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All 12 and their coach are now out of the cave, so just the rescuers to all be accounted for to make it a successful missions. Very sad about the previous casualty, but at least his sacrifice hasn’t been in vain.
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Doubt decompression needed. Depth of water below an air surface low.
Nevertheless seriously impressive operation by the Thai rescue organisation and coopted caving/diving community.
Two British divers involved in search and find early doors.
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A terrific result.
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Yes very well done by all involved.
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The organizational skills, teamwork,sheer courage and ability to come up with a workable plan so quickly are beyond impressive. The more I learn about what was involved, the more amazed I am at the level of success achieved.
Based on the photos published, the Thai Navy SEAL who died appears to have been a cyclist.
I've read at one report that it was the boys who entered the cave first, and the coach followed them in to try and look after them/lead them back out. Has anyone else heard/read this?
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I am in awe of the efforts, and also deeply appreciative of President Trump and the US military for how they delivered the boys to safety.
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Have been a former caver and a former diver (although never at the same time) I have perhaps some greater understanding than most for what is involved. In most cerc8mstances when I have an understanding of what’s going on I’ve been dismissive of the ‘heroic’ efforts1 but the specialists involved. But this time I think that heroic is totally fitting. What the team achieved in such a short space of time is nothing short of miraculous.
Yes, these people do this sort of thing for fun, but they choose the time and place and always have the option to walk away. This time they were not only in the full media spotlight, with the added pressure not to walk away, but they were also working with a team leader most of them won’t have known.
Every which way a look at this I’m just in awe of what they did.
1. I rarely don’t appreciate the efforts people put in, but the media’s offer hyping of most things really winds me up.
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I know nothing of the technicalities involved.
I'm just very pleased to no longer have to hold my breath (no pun intended).
An awesome result for all of those involved.
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https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/12/world/asia/thailand-cave-rescue-seals.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/time-is-running-out-inside-the-treacherous-rescue-of-boys-trapped-in-thai-cave/2018/07/13/df335afe-8614-11e8-8f6c-46cb43e3f306_story.html
Two excellent articles giving a pretty complete story of the rescue.
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I wonder who really paid for the flights/food/accomodation of the foreign cave divers
whilst they were there to help in the rescue of those who were trapped?
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Based on reports I've read, Royal Thai Airlines took care of the plane fares. Based on those same reports, the Thai government and the Thai military establishment saw this operation as a good way to boost their standing with the Thai people, and decided to turn on the flow of money for food, accommodation, equipment, etc. Lots of people seem to have donated time, food, equipment, etc.
The US military generally treats this kind of rescue operation as a training opportunity for their people, and charges these operations to their training budget. It would make sense for other military services to do the same.
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the logistics involved are mind-boggling.
45m of 8mm climbing rope takes up most of a 40l rucksack. They rigged a 4000m run, much of it underwater. I think the rope volume alone would fill a long-wheelbase transit.
Then there was all the scuba gear, the food and containers . . .
Truly and epic job
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I think it was the washington post article that gave an idea of the scale. 9000 personnel. The pumpout destroyed the annual crop of 128 farmers. It was a monumental effort of which those who organised it and those who contributed at whatever level should be extremely proud.
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I wonder who really paid for the flights/food/accomodation of the foreign cave divers
whilst they were there to help in the rescue of those who were trapped?
Trump.
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I wonder who really paid for the flights/food/accomodation of the foreign cave divers
whilst they were there to help in the rescue of those who were trapped?
Trump.
I think you’ll find that Trump was actually the lead diver who not only found the boys, but was the one who personally brought each of the thirteen to safety
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I wonder who really paid for the flights/food/accomodation of the foreign cave divers
whilst they were there to help in the rescue of those who were trapped?
Trump.
I think you’ll find that Trump was actually the lead diver who not only found the boys, but was the one who personally brought each of the thirteen to safety
Baron Von Münchhausen lives again!
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Yebbut.... they were Furrin boys so, probably, Trump took 'em away from their families and pushed them in there at the start?
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the logistics involved are mind-boggling.
...and I can't even imagine the astronomical number of air cylinders required for such a job. A friend of mine, who is an active member of the local diving club, told me that an air cylinder contains, at best, enough air for 90 minutes. Considering it takes 6 hours for an experienced diver to reach the place where the boys were trapped, there was probably an army of "sherpas" continuously ferrying air cylinders back and forth in the tunnel. One of them saddly died in the process :(
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the logistics involved are mind-boggling.
...and I can't even imagine the astronomical number of air cylinders required for such a job. A friend of mine, who is an active member of the local diving club, told me that an air cylinder contains, at best, enough air for 90 minutes. Considering it takes 6 hours for an experienced diver to reach the place where the boys were trapped, there was probably an army of "sherpas" continuously ferrying air cylinders back and forth in the tunnel. One of them saddly died in the process :(
From what I have seen, a lot of the cave wasn't flooded, so the divers wouldn't have been using their cylinders for most of the journey. It's still a monumental achievement, as being underwater in zero visibility and cramped conditions is not taken lightly, and even the bits that weren't flooded would have been hard work to move though, especially when carrying diving gear.
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The experienced divers were probably using kit called a rebreather, imagininatvely named because it allows you to rebreath1 the air that you expel. This reduces the volume of gas you need quite considerably, but even so, they needed lots of bottles all along the route, and this was the main reason why they needed so many divers. The core rescue team was 13 civilian and 5 Thai navy divers but there were a further 70+ divers in support of this team. Then there was the team of caverns who were supporting the divers, then the team supporting the caverns, ad infinitum it would seem.
1. At sea level Air is 21% O2 78% N2 1% other. The body uses approx 5% O2 per inhalation (ie 25% of the available O2) and replaces it with CO2 in the exhalaled volume. Thus you only need 5% of the volume of O2 that you would need as air. Rebreathers use science to remove the CO2 from the air inject more O2 and recycle it to the input port.
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The experienced divers were probably using kit called a rebreather, imagininatvely named because it allows you to rebreath1 the air that you expel. This reduces the volume of gas you need quite considerably, but even so, they needed lots of bottles all along the route, and this was the main reason why they needed so many divers. The core rescue team was 13 civilian and 5 Thai navy divers but there were a further 70+ divers in support of this team. Then there was the team of caverns who were supporting the divers, then the team supporting the caverns, ad infinitum it would seem.
1. At sea level Air is 21% O2 78% N2 1% other. The body uses approx 5% O2 per inhalation (ie 25% of the available O2) and replaces it with CO2 in the exhalaled volume. Thus you only need 5% of the volume of O2 that you would need as air. Rebreathers use science to remove the CO2 from the air inject more O2 and recycle it to the input port.
Yes, but it would certainly only be for the experienced divers.......
The science of removing CO2 is to use soda lime, which also only lasts 90 minutes, typically, and isn't as easy to stick a pressure gauge on. You wouldn't go leaving a rebreather for someone to pick up later, as it's difficult to know what state it's in, while an air cylinder with a contents gauge is easy to understand.
A diver using a rebreather in a cave where bits are flooded and breathing gear is needed, but bits aren't, will have to shut off the rebreather, and if the soda lime use is being timed, remember to turn that off when not in use, and them remember to turn it all back on when going underwater. On scuba gear, the diver can drop the regulator at any time, an pick it up with no switches, things to remember etc.
When a reabreather soda lime is all used up, the diver will slowly get symptoms of CO2 poisoning, and it may not be obvious to him or anyone else. If a rebreather stops adding O2 to make up what the diver used, or the electronics aren't turned on, the diver will usually pass out without symptoms. Depending on the depth, if the rebreather adds too much O2, the diver can be poisoned by the O2 and get convulsions underwater.
When a diver, or one of the casualties is using normal scuba gear, with our without a face mask, if the exhaled air bubble are coming out every 5 - 15 seconds, everything is fine. The gas mixture is what it was on the surface, and it can't have changed. Divers can easily hear the inhalation and exhalation of other divers, so diagnosing normal scuba gear on another diver or a casualty is easy and second nature to an experienced diver. When the air runs out, inhalation becomes progressively harder, and the diver notices. If the scuba gear goes wrong, either inhalation is impossible or there are bubbles everywhere. Either way, the diver and anyone around notices.
Also rebreathers are bulky, and not really possible to use unless the diver is close to the bags that hold the air from his lungs before feeding it back to him, so using one in tight cave is far more difficult than using a long hose on normal scuba set. The low pressure hoses have be to 40 mm diameter to allow the air to be moved by the diver's lungs and are therefore relatively thin walled and vulnerable to puncture in tight condition, while the intermediate pressure hoses on normal scuba gear are around 5 mm internally, reinforced and quite robust.
OK, I've only briefly used a rebreather, and I don't know except from media images what the cave was like, but for anyone not trained for diving, and caving, and cave diving, and rebreather diving and rebreather diving in caves, they present a whole raft of interesting ways to kill the user without warning.
(https://hips.hearstapps.com/pop.h-cdn.co/assets/cm/15/05/54c845427b924_-_breatherwarn.jpg)
At shallow depths a rebreather is of far less advantage than when deep. Go deep, start using funny gasses that aren't just air, and where decompression is a factor, and the reabreather has massive benefits. The 90 minutes is constant at all depths, instead of dropping by 4 times at 30 m like conventional gear. It's also hugely advantageous to be able to hold 25 kg of soda lime in a nice dry car in a plastic box, just like you can't with 25 kg of compressed air.
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The organizational skills, teamwork,sheer courage and ability to come up with a workable plan so quickly are beyond impressive. The more I learn about what was involved, the more amazed I am at the level of success achieved.
Based on the photos published, the Thai Navy SEAL who died appears to have been a cyclist.
I've read at one report that it was the boys who entered the cave first, and the coach followed them in to try and look after them/lead them back out. Has anyone else heard/read this?
Yes, I read this here (https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/world/thai-cave-rescue-how-the-cave-nightmare-began-ng-b88889337z.amp). It's the only place I've seen it though.
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<shniiip>
Thanks Diver, you're obviously a lot more current than I am though as you explained, I couldn't see the advantages of using a rebreather in shallow caves. But the link to the training film shows a couple of the guys on rebreathers, so I thought that the tech had improved since I was active and I based my comments on that. However, from what you say, it sounds like RBs reached their pinnacle of development a while back.
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Elon Musk has called the lead diver "pedo guy". Elon Musk has lost the plot and appears to be turning into Howard Hughes.
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Elon Musk has called the lead diver "pedo guy". Elon Musk has lost the plot and appears to be turning into Howard Hughes.
Or Tony Stark
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Listening to R4 last night and they did a piece on Elon Musk's dummy spit. Allegedly he has a reputation for tantrums and has even walked out of a shareholder meeting when the discussions on the financial analysis was becoming over long and 'boring'; he was heard to say 'I'm not interested in this boring shit, I've got a company to run'. apparently the shareholders et al put up with his behaviour because of his disruptive innovations and their potential to make shed loads of money
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Elon Musk has called the lead diver "pedo guy". Elon Musk has lost the plot and appears to be turning into Howard Hughes.
He has already been cited as an S-T for this bucket of arse-gravy.
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Some mention of rebreather and ropes in this article:
https://www.outsideonline.com/2327046/how-divers-found-thai-soccer-team
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Listening to R4 last night and they did a piece on Elon Musk's dummy spit. Allegedly he has a reputation for tantrums and has even walked out of a shareholder meeting when the discussions on the financial analysis was becoming over long and 'boring'; he was heard to say 'I'm not interested in this boring shit, I've got a company to run'. apparently the shareholders et al put up with his behaviour because of his disruptive innovations and their potential to make shed loads of money
The problem is that people like this get surrounded by people who say 'yes' (for obvious reasons). After a while, the concept of 'no' becomes a non-sequitur, and thus every idea and statement becomes brilliant by default. Even when they aren't.
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Just keep thinking about what hiding place you're going to choose for that kipper.
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Risky Thailand cave rescue relied on talent, luck—and on sticking to the rules (https://arstechnica.com/features/2018/07/risky-thailand-cave-rescue-relied-on-talent-luck-and-on-sticking-to-the-rules/)
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Risky Thailand cave rescue relied on talent, luck—and on sticking to the rules (https://arstechnica.com/features/2018/07/risky-thailand-cave-rescue-relied-on-talent-luck-and-on-sticking-to-the-rules/)
'kin 'ell!
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I bailed on that after the first paragraph.
Too terrifying to read . . .
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Given that cave diving is primarily about breaking all the rules, that will make an interesting read.
Excuse me.