Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Freewheeling => Folders => Topic started by: rogerzilla on 05 January, 2022, 05:53:49 pm
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We find out on Jan 19th.
https://youtu.be/wCv37frpPbs
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I hope they've got their Warranty Department fully onboard.
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We can but look out for the first time we see two together and can shout "Snap!"
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Is it going to be a lot lighter?
I mean, my Brompton single speed is probably 11kg... if it was 10 it would make zero difference, but if it was 8, then it would make it significantly easier to carry around.
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I hope they've got their Warranty Department fully onboard.
My thoughts also. The price will probably reflect the expected cost of dealing with returns.
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Is it going to be a lot lighter?
I mean, my Brompton single speed is probably 11kg... if it was 10 it would make zero difference, but if it was 8, then it would make it significantly easier to carry around.
Doubt very much whether the main part of the frame will be titanium, so the weight saving will be minimal.
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Taking a guess at what the price is likely to be, I’d be more likely to spend that kind money on a hummingbird, which will be considerably lighter.
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Is it going to be a lot lighter?
I mean, my Brompton single speed is probably 11kg... if it was 10 it would make zero difference, but if it was 8, then it would make it significantly easier to carry around.
Doubt very much whether the main part of the frame will be titanium, so the weight saving will be minimal.
I think that is the whole point of the new bike.
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UK built? That might reflect the price. Be interesting to see how they're welded, they're possibly small enough parts to fit in a purge chamber, that ought to cut down the failure rate. Weight saving is unlikely to be more than 1kg. My price guess is at the lower end, £1,000 more than the steel equivalent, though anyone wanting the blingist frame is also going to want the build to match.
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I'd go for a ti Dahon Presto Lite.* This Brompton clone (https://www.bikeforums.net/folding-bikes/1176258-my-wife-s-full-titanium-brompton-clone.html) also caught my eye.†
Funnily enough a manufacturer in China got in touch with me the other day, likely barking up the wrong tree but we'll see. More on that later, maybe.
* on edit: and likely be burnt
† which has a sweet tooth
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These things are for those who really want them and think that the CHPT3 was too slow and heavy for them. Look at the cost of the high end Moultons.
Even if the frames have a 100% failure rate, the amount they charge for them, they could to replace the frame a few times before they lose money. With their strict pricing policy, if they are selling direct, they essentially are getting all the margins.
I also think it's down to the cap on the cycle to work scheme being lifted, as quite a few of my colleagues are making some crazy plans.
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There are certainly big advantages to a lighter Brompton if you ever have to carry the thing, especially for smaller individuals. I just don't have confidence in their ability to engineer it in titanium, a treacherous material to weld with.
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A titanium folder sounds like a disaster to me, but one can dream.
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I've once used a Brompton in anger which involved carrying it up and down escalators on the London Underground. I was surprised at how much my arms and fingers hurt after not carrying it very far.
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I'd go for a ti Dahon Presto Lite.* This Brompton clone (https://www.bikeforums.net/folding-bikes/1176258-my-wife-s-full-titanium-brompton-clone.html) also caught my eye.†
Funnily enough a manufacturer in China got in touch with me the other day, likely barking up the wrong tree but we'll see. More on that later, maybe.
* on edit: and likely be burnt
† which has a sweet tooth
5.20 kg for a folder is life changing... if it was half as durable as a Brompton, it would be worth considering it. Logging the thing up 3 flights of stairs is the real workout, never mind the 5 undulating miles to get there...
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The combination of ti and featherweight is well nigh irresistible. This Swift (https://www.bikeforums.net/17700231-post249.html) was also interesting, though not exactly a winner in the folding category.
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Most Bromptons are about 12-13kg. Losing more than half that is remarkable. It's worth remembering that, despite their many niggles, Bromptons are very durable. I wonder if something less than half the weight can be?
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The main beam is a massively over-engineered piece of gas pipe, so it should be easy to lighten anyway.
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Doubt very much whether the main part of the frame will be titanium, so the weight saving will be minimal.
I think that is the whole point of the new bike.
Pretty much every other part has been done in titanium, what else can it be about?
This site (https://thebromptonman.blogspot.com/2018/01/brompton-component-weights.html) says the main frame weighs 2kg and for the rear triangle steel (755) and tit (461). The same ratio (I know about the notes) would make the main frame 1221g.
Then there's this thread (https://www.bikeforums.net/folding-bikes/1176258-my-wife-s-full-titanium-brompton-clone.html) where someone claims to already have, 2 years ago, a titanium Brompton clone frame weighing 1252g.
Not saying anything with these references - just food for thought.
Personally:
1) I think Brompton will have the purged chamber required to give it a good chance of success. (not saying it will succeed).
2) I voted £4.5k because I think they'll charge double what they ought in order to allow for one failure replacement per sale. Just like early sellers of plasma and LCD TVs did. Basically sell 2 in the hope one or t'other outlasts the warranty. Thoughts around what they might get away with asking lead to the same ballpark figure.
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We had an early Plasma TV. It lasted forever (it may well still be out there as we sold it on after 10 years) and heated the room so much that we never had to put the heating on... It cost us a fortune all round.
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The hinges on the main frame and stem will be interesting. They are currently cast steel, and need to be very hard; titanium is a bear to machine because of galling, but is not as hard as many grades of steel. There is also a hinge pin in the joint - would that be Ti as well, or would they stick to a steel pin? A Ti pin would probably gall, and a steel pin might lead to galvanic corrosion.
Will they also stick to the heavy steel seatpost? They used to do a Ti post years and years ago(I have one; it's appreciated in value by three times since it was new, when it was fairly good value). Then they changed to cheaper aluminium (not sure whether this was due to supply or reliability issues with Ti, or just to save costs) but that was a failure, so they reverted to steel, meaning a superlight Brompton now is quite a lot heavier than a superlight Brompton from 2008.
I think you can engineer a decent Brompton-like folder from the ground up in Ti. Doing it and making all the existing components fit is extremely challenging, and my guess is that there will be failures aplenty. Think of titanium saddle rails; they are the same size as steel ones, so they have a worse reputation for breaking. They would be fine if someone were to design a new saddle and rail standard that allowed oversized rails, but no-one really wants another standard. Likewise, Brompton probably doesn't want a separate line of headsets, seat tube sleeves, handlebars, hinge clamps, toolkits and anything else that is fitted to the main frame or stem.
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Most Bromptons are about 12-13kg. Losing more than half that is remarkable. It's worth remembering that, despite their many niggles, Bromptons are very durable. I wonder if something less than half the weight can be?
When I had a Hummingbird on test a few years back, I weighed it at a tad over 7kg. If the Ti Brompton can beat that and match the Hummingbird for price (£3,745 for the 3-speed model) it will be an interesting proposition.
I didn't have the Hummingbird long enough to be able to vouch for its durability, but the main frame is a carbon monocoque (built by a firm that also make F1 cars) and the rear triangle CNC aluminium, so should be reasonably sturdy. I guess a lot depends on how well engineered the hinges and seals are.
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The fold on the Hummingbird is woeful, though. It's so wrong that Brompton can protect their fold using copyright (the patent is long expired) - form dictated by function is always supposed to be an exemption from copyright. if other makers could use the Brompton fold, you certainly wouldn't be paying £1300 for a basic one.
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The Dahon Curl had potential but wasn’t polished enough to really challenge the Big B.
https://betterbicycles.org/review/city-folding-bikes/dahon-curl-folding-bike-review/
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I wonder how they managed to use the fold without attracting Brompton's copyright rotweilers?
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you certainly wouldn't be paying £1300 for a basic one.
My basic one was £800 ;)
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Hang on, this is Brompton: Are we sure it's actually a titanium bike, and not just an Exclusive! New! paint colour?
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A good point...if the new bike is raw Ti, they can't charge you for a coloured lacquer paint job. Better add another £250 to the price to make up for it.
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The Dahon’s BB brace to the top tube is paired and the rear wheel fits between when folded. It isn’t an exact match to the Brompton’s single brace that lies along the rear tyre when folded. That alone might be enough difference to avoid copyright issues.
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https://lfgss.microco.sm/api/v1/files/6f78665ca742096a93e700d93eca351c236053e9.png
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I'll take that as a win for the "just under £4000" option. :smug:
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Dang, I had £3,750!
So it's cheaper than the median YACF guess. Sign me up for v3.1, after the bugs are mostly ironed out.
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But how light is it?
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But how light is it?
7.54kg for the single speed
7.95kg for the 4 speed
The one thing which surprises me is the price, given that (as far as I am aware) the frame is made in the UK, and not Asia.
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Strong, light, cheap...pick two :)
A lot of the weight saving comes from CF rather than titanium. I''m not sure CF forks and bars will relish being scratched up on a train. The spivs are already advertising them for £5,000+
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The fold on the Hummingbird is woeful, though.
YMMV. I like it. It's somewhat narrower when folded than the Brompton, which makes it easier to carry by your side. It also means it slots into the gap between train seats, which the Brompton doesn't.
Looking at the released details for the Brompton, it's pretty much a direct competitor for the Hummingbird, so if the fold is a clincher for you, then obviously the Brompton wins. And of course the Brompton has the name and reputation that the Hummingbird doesn't have.
If I were shopping for a folder with £4k to spend, I would find it hard to choose. I'm unlikely to be facing that choice any time soon though.
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One of the guys on LFGSS has just bought a Ti 5 speed Brompton Chinese clone for his partner. £2.8k
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Given LWaB's comments here (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=121775.msg2692103#msg2692103), the third photo in this review (https://www.rouleur.cc/blogs/desire-journal/brompton-7-45kg-titanium-t-line-first-look-review) doesn't inspire one with confidence.
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Given LWaB's comments here (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=121775.msg2692103#msg2692103), the third photo in this review (https://www.rouleur.cc/blogs/desire-journal/brompton-7-45kg-titanium-t-line-first-look-review) doesn't inspire one with confidence.
Oh, that's nasty-looking.
Certainly, it's no S-Works Tarmac, but take your eyes off the fold for a moment and you could be convinced you were riding a custom titanium commuter.
Yeah right, so the straight bars, pogo from the rear suspension and febrile steering just fade away.
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Given LWaB's comments here (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=121775.msg2692103#msg2692103), the third photo in this review (https://www.rouleur.cc/blogs/desire-journal/brompton-7-45kg-titanium-t-line-first-look-review) doesn't inspire one with confidence.
:o
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Given LWaB's comments here (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=121775.msg2692103#msg2692103), the third photo in this review (https://www.rouleur.cc/blogs/desire-journal/brompton-7-45kg-titanium-t-line-first-look-review) doesn't inspire one with confidence.
Oh, that's nasty-looking.
Certainly, it's no S-Works Tarmac, but take your eyes off the fold for a moment and you could be convinced you were riding a custom titanium commuter.
Yeah right, so the straight bars, pogo from the rear suspension and febrile steering just fade away.
That review is bollocks; badly written and full of non-sequiturs. One might think that it's an advertorial.
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Given LWaB's comments here (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=121775.msg2692103#msg2692103), the third photo in this review (https://www.rouleur.cc/blogs/desire-journal/brompton-7-45kg-titanium-t-line-first-look-review) doesn't inspire one with confidence.
A few years ago I was looking at a similar component with one of my colleagues and had to explain to him that, while a quick scrub over with some Scotch-Brite would remove the pretty colours, the damage that they indicated was more than skin deep ::-)
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I wonder how they managed to use the fold without attracting Brompton's copyright rotweilers?
I spoke to Will Butler once at a conference. Brompton hold no patents on their designs. They rightly object that a patent is only worth it if you can afford the legal costs involved in going to court and they probably can’t
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If Brompton had any patents, they would've expired years/decades ago.
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They use copyright law now.