Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Topic started by: canny colin on 25 April, 2022, 08:00:12 pm
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I am looking at getting a new upright tricycle frame . I have a choice between two front mini v brakes or one mini v brake & disc brake fitted to the front forks .
One of the joys ,for me . Is the relative silence of a well set up bike / trike . All to often in the winter I come across riders with grinding ,scrapping & squealing disc brakes .
I could go old school and fit a front hub brake for the winter months . Bit heavy but they do work in all weathers & are silent . With very little maintenance .
Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated
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I am looking at getting a new upright tricycle frame . I have a choice between two front mini v brakes or one mini v brake & disc brake fitted to the front forks .
One of the joys ,for me . Is the relative silence of a well set up bike / trike . All to often in the winter I come across riders with grinding ,scrapping & squealing disc brakes .
I could go old school and fit a front hub brake for the winter months . Bit heavy but they do work in all weathers & are silent . With very little maintenance .
Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated
if your discs are clean, they should not make any noise other than the same sort of noise a rim brake makes when applied.
If the discs are true, there should be no rubbing.
J
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Thanks quixoticgeek . Is it just dirty disc that cause that earth shatter shriek , when riders apply the disc brakes .
How often do you need to clean & true them . ( I realise this is a bit of a how long is a bit of string question).
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Silent and low-maintenance disc brakes to me says hydraulic. Cable disc brakes work by having the inner pad perilously close to the disc, which is then bent towards it by the moving pad. It's almost impossible to achieve really good braking when they're adjusted to be silent under workshop conditions (the rub of a well-adjusted brake is inaudible when riding the bike, and causes insignifcant drag on the wheel). Hydraulics move both pads and are self-adjusting, so are usually quieter. Possibly something like the TRP Spyre (which, unusually for a cable-operated brake, moves both pads symmetrically) might manage the silent; I haven't used them.
Choice of pad material helps. Sintered pads are good all-rounders, but they're more inclined to ugly scraping noises than organic.
I'm not sure that squealing is entirely the brake's fault: The BB7 on the back of my SMGT will squeal loudly when wet (never in the dry). The one on the front never squeals, nor do the BB7s on barakata's trike. I've swapped calipers, discs and pads around, to no effect; it's always the same one. It's better than rim brakes, which are more than capable of squealing in the dry (the Kool Stops on my Dawes are an effective pedestrian-alarming system, and the only thing that reliably stops it is riding through a muddy puddle beforehand).
But ultimately, you shouldn't judge a piece of equipment by how other people choose to adjust/maintain it. Lots of people seem to ride around with disc rotors that are obviously well out of true. (To be fair, the same can be said for wheels.)
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Thanks quixoticgeek . Is it just dirty disc that cause that earth shatter shriek , when riders apply the disc brakes .
How often do you need to clean & true them . ( I realise this is a bit of a how long is a bit of string question).
Cleaning and truing needs to be done: when installed, when some fuckwit has bashed your bike or spilt something over the disc.
Once installed, you shouldn't need to clean a disc, or true a disc as long as it isn't being touched or bashed. When installing use a bit of IPA (or invest in proper disc cleaner) to wipe the surface down.
Once installed you want to bed in the pads, this means accelerate upto about 20kph, and slam on the anchors as hard as you can without going over the bars. Repeat about 20 times, The first one or two may make a noise, but it goes very fast.
For even quieter operation, use resin pads, but trade off is shorter life.
J
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Once installed, you shouldn't need to clean a disc, or true a disc as long as it isn't being touched or bashed. When installing use a bit of IPA (or invest in proper disc cleaner) to wipe the surface down.
It's mostly a case of being careful when locking the bike up and not spraying GT85 vaguely in the direction of your drivetrain and catching the rotor in the crossfire.
Most of my discs-going-out-of-true incidents have been bikes-on-trains related. Though I should note the bike I mostly use for journeys that involve locking it to bike stands has rim brakes.
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As they said it comes down to the brakes being properly setup. I’ve got BB7s and when they start making a noise I know it’s time for some tlc.
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Fork material and design, and that of the mount between fork and caliper are also critical for quietness IMO. I don’t think steel forks lend themselves well to discs, and on a trike steel might be even worse. Unless you want a fork that doesn’t bend.
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Thanks kim , quixoticgeek & Paulf. It will be cable as I will run it with a v brake . I will be using an 8 speed / triple gear set up on friction levers . BUT if I could find matching drop bar levers one which runs cable and one which runs hydraulic , I could run a hydraulic disc calliper . A TRP spyre might be the answer . I think aiden.f otp runs them on his trike . I have ridden his contraption, I just cant remember what callipers were fitted. Good stoppers though . IT sounds like a bit of careful maintance is all that is required .
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That was one of my fears sergeant pluck . Geoff booker ( of trykit fame) has done a number of steel disc forks . But it is virtually imposable to get the same compliance as a none disc fork . Aiden.f trike has a very forgiven ride ,but it is fitted with tubeless tyres , I just don't want the hassle & expense of those .
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I have BB7s on both my Airnimal Joey and my S40 recumbent and they could not be more different. Precise, crisp, hard-stopping on the Airnimal, with nary a squeal. On the S40, the rear is a pig to set up without either rub or spongy performance, I think due to the long tortuous cable run. The front is much easier to set up and trim for feel and performance, so tends to get more loaded and more used. At least you can't go over the bars on an S40 (unless you try very, very hard ;D)
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A disc fork needs to be noticeably stiffer than a rim brake fork to handle the asymmetric loading. Comfort is then provided by a larger section lower pressure tyre, whether tubeless or not.
A cable/ hydraulic disc brake (e.g. Juin Tech) is a better option than a cable-only disc brake, avoiding the flexing disc issue.
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Thanks . Elydave & LW&B . I all ready run 28mm tyres on the front ( Vittoria rubions pro 28mm pre carbon ) & have run 30 mm ( jack brown mile mucher's ) . Not sure how larger a cross section of tyre you have to run to make up for the stiffer fork . Also I would like to keep the option of running sti combined brake/ gear lever so I am rapidly running out of tyre / mudguard clearance , with mini v brakes . Juin tech looks a good call
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The most recent STI levers pull enough cable for a full-size V-brake, albeit a touch spongy. Mini-Vs come in a range of arm lengths, so you could pick something almost full-length without adversely affecting braking.
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That's good to hear Lw&B . Only problem is I want shinny polished stuff , I know I am a bloody luddite .
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Thanks quixoticgeek . Is it just dirty disc that cause that earth shatter shriek , when riders apply the disc brakes .
How often do you need to clean & true them . ( I realise this is a bit of a how long is a bit of string question).
Cleaning and truing needs to be done: when installed, when some fuckwit has bashed your bike or spilt something over the disc.
Once installed, you shouldn't need to clean a disc, or true a disc as long as it isn't being touched or bashed. When installing use a bit of IPA (or invest in proper disc cleaner) to wipe the surface down.
Once installed you want to bed in the pads, this means accelerate upto about 20kph, and slam on the anchors as hard as you can without going over the bars. Repeat about 20 times, The first one or two may make a noise, but it goes very fast.
For even quieter operation, use resin pads, but trade off is shorter life.
J
The guy that ran the Cytech course I did a quite few years ago suggested that the best method for bedding in new pads/brakes was to go to the top of a hill and ride down with the brakes part-way on to heat them up - and then repeat 4 or 5 times. I've used the method on all the disc stuff I've done since and I have to say it seems to work.
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Given the much increased braking efficiency with a hydraulic disc (and my being ignorant of the deails of trikes) why can't you run with just an hydraulic disc up front, amybe just a larger than usual (180mm say) one? Why the (need for the) secondary mini-V?
I've had cable, and cable/hydraulic discs. The first don't self adjust, and the manual adjusters can get hard to use, plus I always fely them to feel slightly spongy - probably the cable outer moving. The second can self-adjust, but the travel and therfore lever-throw were much greater than I felt comfortable with (YMMV), the lever having to come back nearly to the bars. Plain hydraulic lets me set the lever up with minimal throw before contact (just as I do for my rim brakes) and provide plenty of stopping power.
As other have said, clean discs make little of no noise in use - although mist/fog can affect initial bite and ciase some noise, but no more than the equivalent rim brake. And road scog doesn't affect discs, nor does rain.
Conversly a contaminated disc can scream - I had to replace my somehow contaminated front pads last week, and clean the disc with acetone, but it was the work of a few minutes.
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Only problem is I want shinny polished stuff , I know I am a bloody luddite .
If you want a shiny disc caliper, there'e the Paul Components Klamper.
https://www.paulcomp.com/shop/components/brakes/disc-brakes/i-s-klamper/
It's also IMO the best of the cable disc brakes, as it ought to be at the price. It doesn't stop any better than the BB7's or Spyres, it just has a nicer feel and is easier to adjust and service. The one I have doesn't make any noise, but then neither did the brake it replaced, so as others have said there's more factors to that than the caliper.
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I've got Spyres on one bike and yes there is a quiet noise when spinning the wheel but I'm not aware of it while riding, nor is there any drag that I can feel. And they don't squeal either, though as said above I think that's largely going to be down to rotor contamination.
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An upright tricycle needs two braking systems for legality and redundancy. Traditionally they are both on the front wheel because rear wheel brakes on a solo trike tend to skid a lot.
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The guy that ran the Cytech course I did a quite few years ago suggested that the best method for bedding in new pads/brakes was to go to the top of a hill and ride down with the brakes part-way on to heat them up - and then repeat 4 or 5 times. I've used the method on all the disc stuff I've done since and I have to say it seems to work.
What's a hill? That some weird foreign concept? :p
J
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I use a TRP Spyre on the rear of our tandem. In three years it has never made any untoward noises. Both pads move on the Spyres (and Spykes) so if properly adjusted there should never be any rub on the disc, assuming the disc isn't warped. OTH I have had many frustrations with hydraulic disc brakes rubbing due to friction in the callipers not allowing the pistons to fully retract, and even when they do the clearance is very small meaning the slightest runout on the disc will cause rubbing.
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The guy that ran the Cytech course I did a quite few years ago suggested that the best method for bedding in new pads/brakes was to go to the top of a hill and ride down with the brakes part-way on to heat them up - and then repeat 4 or 5 times. I've used the method on all the disc stuff I've done since and I have to say it seems to work.
What's a hill? That some weird foreign concept? :p
J
Ride into the wind with your brakes on, that's what I'd have to do as well.
Or you could head to flanders
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I use a TRP Spyre on the rear of our tandem. In three years it has never made any untoward noises. Both pads move on the Spyres (and Spykes) so if properly adjusted there should never be any rub on the disc, assuming the disc isn't warped. OTH I have had many frustrations with hydraulic disc brakes rubbing due to friction in the callipers not allowing the pistons to fully retract, and even when they do the clearance is very small meaning the slightest runout on the disc will cause rubbing.
I open up the return springs on my hydraulic disc pads to improve the piston return/disk clearance, without disc runout to push the pistons back it does help a lot but makes pad installation more fiddly.
The pads get removed to check their thickness occasionally, and get a wipe over with brake cleaner before re installation. Shimano and TRP's best SAS (soft as shit) grade screwheads require care to not over tighten the screws - rely on the safety clips rather than brute force to ensure the pins don't unscrew.
I true the disks using a DTI on a magnetic clamp attached to the wheel building jig. The DTI has a large diameter (15mm) flat contact with a PTFE surface (self adhesive PTFE tape). I mark the orientation of the disc on the hub with a paint marker (under the lockring on centerlocks, or under one of the bolt heads on a six bolt set up) if they need to be removed. Most discs can be got within 0.15mm total runout.
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Given the much increased braking efficiency with a hydraulic disc (and my being ignorant of the deails of trikes) why can't you run with just an hydraulic disc up front, amybe just a larger than usual (180mm say) one? Why the (need for the) secondary mini-V?
Construction and use regs a cycle has to have two independent brakes. Bicycle front and back wheel , trike just the front ~in19xx rear brakes on trikes were unusual
Already answered thank you to LWaB
Fork material and design, and that of the mount between fork and caliper are also critical for quietness IMO. I don’t think steel forks lend themselves well to discs, and on a trike steel might be even worse. Unless you want a fork that doesn’t bend.
My experience - recently built trike with 180 mm rotor, cable hydraulic calliper, plus mini V on a custom fork with oversized 631 blades and 10mm thru axle. Like everything Geoff does a work of art in steel
Geoff booker ( of trykit fame) has done a number of steel disc forks . But it is virtually imposable to get the same compliance as a none disc fork . Aiden.f trike has a very forgiven ride ,but it is fitted with tubeless tyres , I just don't want the hassle & expense of those
The fork still has a lot of compliance - I can see it flexing, obv. not as much as my V-brake front / rear disc trike but enough to IMO be fine with a 32C tubed tyre
Brake performance is excellent - happy to descend Talla Linn, just ridden the Chevy Chase route and Killhope Challenge (Grimpeur) - you just have to be aware that the front tyre is doing a lot of work.
Reliability: Geoff fits Acor cable/hydraulic, not available retail but I think pretty generic from a look at ebay. There is a manual wear adjustment which I rarely need to touch.
After winter storage I found one piston frozen (not obvious BTW) had to remove the caliper, run a drip of hydraulic oil round the seal and work it to and fro with a metal block in place of the pads
I have a bleed kit needed for a set of TRP HyRd's. I expect to use it as a routine after a year or so. Colin - you may have a loan
I am getting a bit of noise from spoke crossings when cornering now - the wheel is is of course dished and maybe spokes are a bit slack now.
No noise at all when braking. :-)
I will be using an 8 speed / triple gear set up on friction levers . BUT if I could find matching drop bar levers one which runs cable and one which runs hydraulic , I could run a hydraulic disc calliper
as above cable hydraulic is your solution..
I have changed from 10 Speed bar ends to 105 STi triple (Spa Cycles) Silver though is still out of stock (forever) Colin do you want my bar ends? I do find that 10 speed lasts onna trike, good chainline and no rear wheel crud.
you could pair with these..Just your style and reduced at Spa from £80 to £45
(https://www.spacycles.co.uk/smsimg/245/4181-15067-list-b-245.jpg)
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An upright tricycle needs two braking systems for legality and redundancy. Traditionally they are both on the front wheel because rear wheel brakes on a solo trike tend to skid a lot.
So does that mean operated by different levers as well? In which case you could have cable one side, hydraulic the other. Or can you get 2 cables into one?
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Independent. One brake lever could be hydraulic and the other cable but it would look like shit and feel funny to grip, due to the different lever shapes.
I have built up bikes and trikes for amputees and have fitted two brake levers on one side. It was very useful for the hardcore MTBer to control the front brake with index and middle finger and rear brake with ring and pinkie fingers.
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Brakes
The basic requirement is for two efficient braking systems, by which the front wheel (or wheels) can be braked independently of the rear wheel (or wheels). This means that if there are two wheels at the front and/or the rear, the relevant system must act on the pair. It also means that the combined operation of front and rear brakes from one lever is not allowed - except as an extra braking system: additional to the two independent front and rear braking systems required by this law.
Each braking system is required to be in efficient working order, but apart from saying that a brake that bears directly upon a pneumatic tyre in not efficient, these regulations do not define how the brakes work or how they are operated. So back-pedal brakes are just as legal as the usual hand-levers. (You could even brake with your teeth if you could invent a way to do it efficiently!)
A lot of words are nevertheless devoted to wheels that cannot rotate independently of the pedals (i.e. no freewheel), the upshot of which is very simply that a fixed wheel drive counts as a braking system – on that wheel or wheels.
Exceptions
Tricycles and quadricycles are allowed many and various deviations from the above requirements, depending on age, purpose and wheel size.
The most important exception applies to any normal tricycle, with at least one wheel bigger than 460mm diameter and 'not constructed or adapted for the carriage of goods'. (By goods they mean unusual heavy loads, not ordinary shopping or touring luggage.) A normal tricycle, with two rear wheels, is allowed to have both braking systems acting upon the single front wheel, or if the tricycle has two front wheels: on the single rear wheel.
And a normal tricycle manufactured before 1st August 1984, with two rear wheels, is allowed to have its rear braking system acting upon just one of those wheels.
If the highest part of the 'seating area' of a bicycle or tricycle cannot be raised above 635mm from the road surface, the minimum requirement falls to just one efficient braking system. This is clearly intended for (very) small children's cycles, but inadvertently lets most recumbents under the bar!
A pedal cycle with four or more wheels, none of which exceed 250mm diameter (i.e. a tiny-wheeled quadricycle+) is allowed to have brakes that operate directly on its pneumatic tyres without them being deemed inefficient.
I've already noted that fixed wheel counts as a brake. Taking that a stage further: if one wheel is not only incapable of rotating independently of the pedals, but the pedals are fixed directly to it without any intervening chain or gears, the cycle does not have to be equipped with any actual brakes at all. This is obviously designed to allow various antique machines to be exercised on the highway without adding incongruous modern accessories!
https://www.cyclinguk.org/cyclists-library/regulations/construction-use
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An upright tricycle needs two braking systems for legality and redundancy. Traditionally they are both on the front wheel because rear wheel brakes on a solo trike tend to skid a lot.
So does that mean operated by different levers as well? In which case you could have cable one side, hydraulic the other. Or can you get 2 cables into one?
You can get dual-pull levers and cable combiners and T-junctions for hydraulic hoses - and brakes are often set up this way on tadpole recumbents and cargo cycles - but all of these give you a single independent braking system for legal purposes; you need something else in addition. A parking brake operated by a friction shifter would suffice.
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I have those TRP levers with bar-end shifting on my recumbent, with matching tan bar tape. They are a thing of beauty
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Wow !!! a lot to take in , thank you every one .
I am on a budget, but I want to get my once in a life time new trike right . I am currently running 28mm tyres on Mavic cxp14 rims & plan to use kinlin adhn rims on the new trike. The wider rim plus 30mm / 33mm tyres should make up the difference of a stiffer disc fork .
Discs are just so ugly , I still have to get my head around that .
Gearing~ The 10 speed rear cassettes systems drives me nuts .
If Mr Shimano produced a 13/28 or 13/32 cassette it would make my life easier .
I still think its easier & cheaper/ lighter to run an 8 speed rear cassette & a triple crank with friction levers .
Aiden bonny lad .
I will take you up on your kind offer of the 10 speed bar end levers / for future proofing the project .
We will have to meet up after chevy is done & dusted . I need to check my extra large spd cycle shoes will clear the rear axel , then I will have a base line to give to Geoff Booker .
Right now paint . classic black with shinny polished bits
Burgundy with yellow bands like the Claud butler
Black tulip .