Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Audax => LEL 2022 => Topic started by: alanburke on 07 January, 2024, 03:33:08 pm
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Now this might seem like an odd question to be asking so far in advance, but I'm hoping to buy a new bike soon, and can't decide if I want to spec a Dynamo hub and Dynamo light and charger.
I managed PBP with a 20000 MAh battery which charged 2 decent LED front lights, as well as charging up a phone.
I only needed to charge it once during the trip and was lucky enough to find available plug sockets at the controls.
But LEL is a longer spin, and I was seriously considering switching to a Dynamo setup where I could avoid the Powerbank entirely and use daytime charging to top-up the Garmin satnav and phone.
What do others think?
Will it be relatively easy to charge Powerbanks at controls or is the demand for plugs just overwhelming?
Are extra Plug extenders put in place to let people charge up?
Thanks
Alan
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I managed PBP with the same sized powebank as you, but LEL has drop bags so I figured I could swap powerbanks en route.
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A dynohub tends to be a fit and forget option - you'll never regret it.
Charging at controls is something we controllers are taking more and more seriously as a H&S issue. You certainly shouldn't rely on this option being available and we will be deciding later on what will and will not be possible - it's very easy to overload a school's fuseboard with extension lead plugged into extension lead and multiple socket adaptors. There will possibly be more (official) guidance along at some point but, as you state, it's very early days so don't hold your breath (that's another H&S issue).
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A dynohub tends to be a fit and forget option - you'll never regret it.
Understood. But my current setup works flawlessly up to a 600km Audax, and for any long touring (where 'competition' for plug sockets and cut-off times aren't an issue)
Only for Audax events that are 1000km+ do I need to consider 'tactics' wrt to charging the powerbank.
And given I only plan 1 event like that every 2 years, you can see why I might consider sticking to current setup.
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Just spotted this in the updated FAQ at https://londonedinburghlondon.com/faq#faq42
We provide limited USB charging at controls, at your own risk.
For just £5, we provide a powerbank charging service during the event:
Purchase an LEL powerbank in the rider area of the website when it opens, and we will give you a charged powerbank at registration.
You can then swap the depleted powerbank at any control for a charged one.
IMPORTANT
Sockets at controls must not be used unless clearly stated.
Any rider who unplugs other equipment to charge their own device will receive a sginificant time penalty.
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Dynohubs don't fit in a velomobile (drumbrakes at the front) so I'm relying on a pair of powerbanks for all the lights.
Powerbank charging service sounds ideal for me, if said powerbanks are big enough (20Ah) and have USB-C with PD supporting 12V output. It would be useful if the specs of those powerbanks are published beforehand.
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Pedantry - Sturmey make a hub dyno/ drum brake hub in both forks (standard bikes) and single-sided models (recumbent trikes).
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/dynamos-hub/?brand=sturmey%5Farcher
HK has one on her new-to-her Greenspeed recumbent trike.
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switching to a Dynamo setup where I could avoid the Powerbank entirely and use daytime charging to top-up the Garmin satnav and phone.
This prompts the question - would a dynohub even provide enough power for that..?
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switching to a Dynamo setup where I could avoid the Powerbank entirely and use daytime charging to top-up the Garmin satnav and phone.
This prompts the question - would a dynohub even provide enough power for that..?
The dynohub powers the lights. The power bank is then just used for the gps and phone. If you aren’t prolific with using the phone at every opportunity then a 20,000mAh power bank will easily keep gps and phone going on LEL over 5 full days with no need for external charging at controls or elsewhere.
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switching to a Dynamo setup where I could avoid the Powerbank entirely and use daytime charging to top-up the Garmin satnav and phone.
This prompts the question - would a dynohub even provide enough power for that..?
The dynohub powers the lights. The power bank is then just used for the gps and phone. If you aren’t prolific with using the phone at every opportunity then a 20,000mAh power bank will easily keep gps and phone going on LEL over 5 full days with no need for external charging at controls or elsewhere.
I'm aware of how a dynohub can be used. It literally says 'I could avoid the Powerbank entirely'.
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Don't know much about the topic, but would you need to allow for daytime use of the lights in poor weather conditions?
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In 2022 on LEL, I had a dynamo hub but didn't have dynamo powered lights. I carried two power banks, which I charged from the dynamo via a smaller battery. At controls where I slept I charged my light batteries, my used rear lights (I carried 6), my Garmin, my GoPro, my phone and my headset, all from one of those power banks. Occasionally I needed to charge my Garmin on the road.
In 2023, on PBP, I did have dynamo lights, and it was so much simpler!
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Indeed a dynamo makes it so much simpler for the brain dead rider.
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switching to a Dynamo setup where I could avoid the Powerbank entirely and use daytime charging to top-up the Garmin satnav and phone.
This prompts the question - would a dynohub even provide enough power for that..?
This item - while not yet released - looks like it would fit the bill.
https://nabendynamo.de/en/new-edelux-headlight-with-high-beam-function/
But given the powerbank rental option, I think I'll be fine.
I'll carry my own battery and top that up where I can too.
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When I rode LEL in 2009 I used the lights less than expected as, after riding through much of the first night I slept 11 - 4 most nights so did proportionately less night riding than on other events.
My Lumicycle system gives over 30 hours of light on low settings (which is good for anything apart form fast descents), but I expect I will pack a spare battery in my drop bag, and probably a spare powerpack to charge up other devices such as my Garmin.
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Now this might seem like an odd question to be asking so far in advance, but I'm hoping to buy a new bike soon, and can't decide if I want to spec a Dynamo hub and Dynamo light and charger.
Not meaning to be critical in any way, but quoting your very first line back to you, it sounds as though you really had your mind made up from the start :).
The riders who have responded have largely endorsed a dynohub as being a hassle free solution but you're still going with batteries/battery pack because you only see the benefits of a dynohub in events longer than 600km. I see the benefits everytime I ride my five year old bike - the front light is permanently on and I don't have to even think about switching it on or what the state of the battery is.
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Not meaning to be critical in any way, but quoting your very first line back to you, it sounds as though you really had your mind made up from the start :).
Not at all.
It's not that I had made my mind up, but more that I was trying to see if there was a NEED to switch to a Dynamo option.
I fully understand the benefits, but as stated, I only have this issue once every 2 years.
I appreciate the Dynamo would be 'hassle-free' even on shorter events.
The Powerbank rental option provided by the organisers will suit me perfectly, and given that they are providing this option, I must not be alone in having the issue.
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It's "one less thing to worry about": an important principle in audax. If you have a dynamo hub, then you don't need to worry about charging lights. If you have mechanical shifting, then you don't need to worry about charging the batteries on your derailleurs. And if I have to pay a fiver to have access to a fully charged power bank (for a phone or GPS unit) at any control, then that's one less thing to worry about.
(You could argue that the power bank will also charge your lights, but waiting for a front light to charge can take ages, phones and GPS units charge pretty quickly.)
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It's "one less thing to worry about": an important principle in audax. If you have a dynamo hub, then you don't need to worry about charging lights. If you have mechanical shifting, then you don't need to worry about charging the batteries on your derailleurs. And if I have to pay a fiver to have access to a fully charged power bank (for a phone or GPS unit) at any control, then that's one less thing to worry about.
(You could argue that the power bank will also charge your lights, but waiting for a front light to charge can take ages, phones and GPS units charge pretty quickly.)
Some lights will illuminate and charge simultaneously. My Exposure Strada does.
All things being equal, I agree that a dynamo is optimal, but modern lights and battery packs work well enough for me.
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It's "one less thing to worry about": an important principle in audax. If you have a dynamo hub, then you don't need to worry about charging lights. If you have mechanical shifting, then you don't need to worry about charging the batteries on your derailleurs. If you have a paper route sheet, then you don't need to worry about charging your GPS unit. If you have a feature phone or one mainly turned off then you don't need to worry about charging your phone. And if I have to pay a fiver to have access to a fully charged power bank (for a phone or GPS unit) at any control, then that's one less thing to worry about.
(You could argue that the power bank will also charge your lights, but waiting for a front light to charge can take ages, phones and GPS units charge pretty quickly.)
ftfy
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I come at this as someone that has run dynamo lights for at least 15 years. Reason being commuting one hour each way 5 days a week. So by default I also use dyno power for all audaxing including LEL and PBP. For the longer events I carry a small 5000mAh power bank which I keep topped up from the dynamo during daylight hours. I did not have much joy trying to charge phone or garmin directly - they are happier with a steady supply; so it seems more reliable having the power bank.
The great up side to all this is that during LEL I did not once need to seek out a socket, think about where my next charge was going to come from, or have any delays waiting for a device to charge. Really does simplify things. ... and increases the smug feeling of self sufficiency.
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Going back to the OPs question - it is clear that a dyno system will meet the needs and reduces risk and faff
I would definitely steer clear of relying on charging arrangements at controls
If you rely on a battery system, think about whether it needs upgrading - and then consider cost of that vs the dyno system.
Also consider whether you will be doing more night riding in LEL than PBP. There is more daylight in the north of England / Scotland in early August than France at the end of August (about 1hr 45min extra) and not riding throughout the first night reduces the amount of night riding. My experience of running catering at controls (Barnard Castle 2013, St Ives 2017) is that there were very few people on the road (e.g. arriving after midnight, leaving before 4am) which suggest most riders take advantage of the dark to get some sleep.
Where the dyno will have an advantage is in charging devices such as GPS.
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Charging at controls is something we controllers are taking more and more seriously as a H&S issue. You certainly shouldn't rely on this option being available and we will be deciding later on what will and will not be possible - it's very easy to overload a school's fuseboard with extension lead plugged into extension lead and multiple socket adaptors. There will possibly be more (official) guidance along at some point but, as you state, it's very early days so don't hold your breath (that's another H&S issue).
It's not really possible to overload a fuse board with multiple splitters (unless there's something already dangerously wrong with the building electrical system). Unlike other countries, UK power strips* have a fuse in the plug that will blow if a dangerously high total load is connected downstream, and in any case you'd need possibly hundreds of USB chargers to be able to overload a circuit. And even if you do somehow put enough load on a circuit for a breaker to trip, that will happen long before the circuit is dangerously overloaded.
What can happen is that USB chargers are often designed to leak a very small current to earth to suppress radio interference. Unfortunately current leaking is also how modern fuseboxes (those equipped with an RCD) detect and prevent electrocution. Many normally leaky or perhaps one unusually leaky charger being connected can cause an RCD to cut the power.
Neither of these is a healthy and safety issue, unless the RCD tripping also e.g. cuts out the lighting circuit.
This all said, it might still be prudent to forbid/discourage riders from bringing their own mains adapters by supplying multiway USB chargers rather than mains sockets. Or, more expensively, providing "mains" to those who want it from a camping battery power bank thingy.
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Mortagne-au-Perche control on PBP had an interesting 'cloakroom' charging system, where you gave your device and charger over to be plugged in to a big bank of sockets and received a cloakroom ticket in return, then reversing the process when leaving. Not sure it really mitigates the issues with charging identified above in the thread, other than the devices and chargers being constantly monitored.
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Maybe someone needs to setup one (or more) of these at every control...
(https://social.v.st/system/cache/media_attachments/files/111/700/105/784/488/855/original/ab24d386f20ea89d.jpg)
24 USB-C ports, capable of doing 65W on 20 of them, and 65W on the other 4.
https://chaos.social/@LeoDJ/111700051694162324
J
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I completed LEL in 123 hours last time, I didn't need to charge lights (carried 2x exposure strada and 2x exposure traceR) I carried one 10,000mAh power bank, which I did charge up at Barnard castle. a 10,000mAh bank will charge up the garmin sufficent number of times to finish the event. (I did also use to to recharge my Di2 battery, although I think I might just have managed without doing that due to few gear changes in the fens). This does require light battery management of keeping it on the lowest setting whenever possible, and only using high power on downhills. I find the low setting is perfectly adequate for most riding, until someone comes up behind you with powerful lights casting your shadow in front of you.
I certainly could have completed with 2x 10,000mAh power banks and no charging, and would look at a power bank before a dyno hub. I'd love a dyno hub, but I'm not prepared to sacrifice my deep carbon rims, and getting a decent aero rim to fit to an existing hub does not seem to be easy.
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A Garmin Etrex and Hope Vision 1 lights solve these issues as they all run on AA batteries :smug:
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Some GPS devices could last all of LEL without charging, possibly with some solar power. Etrex Solar claims 200 hours with GPS.
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Etrex Solar
Cor, Garmin seem to have remembered what a handheld GPS receiver is supposed to be.
Lack of mapping would make it suboptimal for cycling use, but their cycling-specific units aren't completely hopeless these days, so that's okay.
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Some GPS devices could last all of LEL without charging, possibly with some solar power. Etrex Solar claims 200 hours with GPS.
That number seems to say when tracking. Thus I’m supposing that’s recording a track but not navigating. Route sheet with etrex GPS tracking :facepalm:
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But presumably it could also be displaying a track on the screen, for you to follow the pink line in standard Etrex fashion?
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But presumably it could also be displaying a track on the screen, for you to follow the pink line in standard Etrex fashion?
That wouldn’t then achieve the quoted 200 hours would it?
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But presumably it could also be displaying a track on the screen, for you to follow the pink line in standard Etrex fashion?
I assume so. Except the line would be black, on account of the mono screen, and there wouldn't be a map under it.
It's basically the original yellow eTrex, if you built it with modern components.
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I'm hoping to buy a new bike soon, and can't decide if I want to spec a Dynamo hub and Dynamo light and charger
Here is my 2p FWIW.
For pbp23 I wanted to ride the new trike. Previous 5x pbp on dynamo, considered new wheel and dynamo ..
I went for 2x Lumintop battery lights. Best value and run time. Low faff. Last Arrive cover shows my setup
The lights are torch type with a shaped beam. replacable 21700 cell. You get 10 hours at 260 lumens from each cell six were more than enough for pbp I did a lot of night riding. Will cover lel.
Easy to switch the spare lamp on for extra illumination.
Approx cost lights £25+£25, protected 5000mAh cells £14 each total £134. Considerably less than a dynamo.
Lights 85g, cells 70g. Lights USB chargeable. Just
less faff to swap cells. With six I effectively had a 60,000mAh power bank.
I carried all (to start with) on pbp. No need with drop bags on lel.
You should by now realise, dear reader, that just £40 will get one to evaluate.
Deffo recommend If your use scenario is one long ride every couple of years. The spare light/spare cell flexibility covers off the flattery light negatives.
I do though have a good collection of cateye rear primary cell lights that are now unobtanium. Read upthread about having to charge rear lights. :facepalm:
Moar technical detail here..
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=126457.0 (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=126457.0)
And another satisfied user ..
Update on this. After using the Lumintop B01 flashlight a couple of times and on a 600 in june, I decided this would be less hassle then the ebike light + battery pack.
Used it on LEL and it was perfect. Good enough beam on medium mode (supposedly 11 hours) and ability to switch to high easily for faster bits. Worked great on all the big descents in the pennines. Used 3 5000mah cells over the course of LEL (took 5 in total). Also took a spare B01 as they're so light/cheap. The included mount also worked flawlessly.
My riding partner also bought one and his first use of it was on LEL. He was impressed.
In summary, it makes a great audax light. Unlimited battery life based on how many cells you bring and you can even power it with a usb-c powerbank.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/b_JGifqsar52jP08WH1RwIPCsmQiqa2XupTorhlLsZfTdT8acGLmxzr1poZfD48OmXA_3VLUqU_gkZWgz0BPLVS9g14cnJlrtpVcDi46vl-LXakU_FvkBH0WVwYUVaT9cI6kWK7j_c68wkis5daeG98mlllYI0dGgxqvSj3OQzo_hDQ464w4fvw65D9QumVBLqe4SLYzq9-UA-h4tUA2O27jJznpo_JNpZiogZ-muhgwRm24F-TgvPaNRbXWGpj_osMOxYfNQwUYhOP3AN3KNScakrGTZgZ3Lrv9XID4slBAL952ZKUAiWE4Zbh42rGu-7tGO1T95uY0-cgCL1f6u84-kHy3F1ormYVRA6hWsLaC_n6xOj1PYJ6nt5GVCB6EzTxEG3s878A2L3ohjg4EjJTMkwXEA-pGbcJIyPG42nwsps0HwSPlDQxJaQ7Ly3dpwFJ0niDVyXowOpOZipnwFU_Tn-J9qmX6CQ9wJm78Yy-eAuMPZxeWJae6HX3Lv5DWjzy49Eynn-lCHCCAJiIEGVGSG-DwtJbfydhwIhUg5Zt9DSUWoaAFyStoRFzwPcfNgMXlHSrEdS6IdqzZbOjmkqq_Kj4w9eJSzX8udC3E2y3vnXqNcxiNI1tNtE5kIXh3OrjHXyjlwvy7CP3EIG7j4wViw0ZqlwFRiJW-miG57s8T3-muhjr3mKn3JW00UtmRk_OxRpkzYQHLLvbFp3ahXDXceAe1DTf9WpINCmLmwXlD86h351uO6A6OYKWy=w400-h1338-no?authuser=0)
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Any info out there on how the Lumintop B01s handle very cold temperatures? Have had a 18650 cell powered light cut out or refuse to work in near zero or subzero conditions, and 21700 cells appear a similar concept
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Ah yes... a very good point
The cells are specified to -20 C but Li-ion voltages drop significantly with temperature
https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-502-discharging-at-high-and-low-temperatures (https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-502-discharging-at-high-and-low-temperatures)
At 3 Volts the Lumintop will switch to low power, so from graph above -10C half capacity -20C just a third of rated
Would caveat that 3 amps is 1C or an hours run-time - quite a lot of current. At half the current draw you should get somewhat more than double the run-time
Ideally the discharging device would have tempComp. I doubt Lumintop does... I could re-instate my lamp logger - it's currently minus six outside..
BTW don't charge below zero - it's really really bad..
Dynamo!!
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Charging at controls is something we controllers are taking more and more seriously as a H&S issue.
I had a bit of 'fun' at the Brampton control last time with a woman who unplugged one of the hot water urns and plugged in several devices on an extension lead. She got very stroppy when I unplugged it all - even when I pointed out that the area in which she had placed all of her gizmos was regularly being splashed with water ::-).
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I had a bit of 'fun' at the Brampton control last time with a woman who unplugged one of the hot water urns and plugged in several devices on an extension lead. She got very stroppy when I unplugged it all - even when I pointed out that the area in which she had placed all of her gizmos was regularly being splashed with water ::-).
That's a neat reversal of the usual gig arrangement, where someone comes along with a tea urn and disrupts the supply of electrons to all your carefully set-up sound/lighting/computer equipment.
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I had a bit of 'fun' at the Brampton control last time with a woman who unplugged one of the hot water urns and plugged in several devices on an extension lead. She got very stroppy when I unplugged it all - even when I pointed out that the area in which she had placed all of her gizmos was regularly being splashed with water ::-).
That's a neat reversal of the usual gig arrangement, where someone comes along with a tea urn and disrupts the supply of electrons to all your carefully set-up sound/lighting/computer equipment.
due to alternating current, you typically keep all your own electrons, they just go backwards and forwards.