Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => OT Knowledge => Topic started by: Beardy on 19 February, 2024, 03:51:48 pm
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Has anyone got experience of using Nikwax Analogy clothing as used by Paramo? Dr Beardy has offered to buy me a new waterproof for my birthday and being a sweaty blob, I’m rather drawn by the claims made by Paramo. And Cioch, but I don’t think the budget will stretch that far. Although it’d be an excuse to visit Skye ;D
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Yes. I have three of their garments. They are excellent.
The zip of one of them packed up and I took it back to their place in Wadhurst and it was fixed under lifetime guarantee.
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I have a Velez smock, Cascada jacket & trousers. Excellent stuff.
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Wot they said...
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Has anyone got experience of using Nikwax Analogy clothing as used by Paramo? Dr Beardy has offered to buy me a new waterproof for my birthday and being a sweaty blob, I’m rather drawn by the claims made by Paramo. And Cioch, but I don’t think the budget will stretch that far. Although it’d be an excuse to visit Skye ;D
Yep. I have been using them for the last 12 years or so. Multiple jackets, and fleeces, Highly recommend.
Just remember to wash them with the correct stuff with enough regularity.
Only downside is it gets a bit too warm in the summer.
J
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Yes, Paramo every time, very adjustable.
I've had a general use jacket and trousers for over 25 years* - each have been back to Paramo once for replacement zips at a very reasonable price.
Don't have to think "what jacket shall I wear", it's worn every day, whatever the weather (heatwaves excepted).
*My husband thinks Paramo kit is expensive. In that time, he has purchased about 15 jackets, and currently has 4-5 on the hooks for different conditions...
Have now added a second-hand Velez jacket (thanks Slope, OTP) which has been my go-to bike jacket all winter.
I've never heard anyone complain about the quality of Paramo kit and it lasts and lasts.
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Too warm for me at anything more than easy walking pace.
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I keep reading this as Nikwax Apology
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And I keep wondering what Nikwax is an analogy for.
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Awinkx.
On no. That's an anagram.
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It's an analogy of hair-covered mammal skin. It is totally waterproof and by far the most breathable waterproof thing I've ever worn. Some people do find it too warm, but that also means you wear less under it. Paramo garments are expensive but no more expensive than equivalent quality items of eg eVent or GoreTex. But bear in mind that a material is not a garment and vice versa.
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Yo me paramo jackets are basically an excellent example of the Sam Vimes Theory of economic inequality.
Yes it's expensive to buy one. But they last a very long time. My oriental Quito lasted a decade. Before that I was spending 80-100 quid every year to get a membrane jacket that would fail within about a year.
Over the ten year life, the paramo jackets is very economical.
J
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And I keep wondering what Nikwax is an analogy for.
I have a vague distant memory that the company founder was called Nick?
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And I keep wondering what Nikwax is an analogy for.
I have a vague distant memory that the company founder was called Nick?
Nick Brown.
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And in recent years he handed the business over to the workers.
https://myoutdoors.co.uk/industry-news/nick-brown-sells-paramo-and-nikwax-after-45-years-to-their-employees
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In my experience as a very sweaty person, even the lighter Paramo jackets run warm and are not as breathable as the best Gore-Tex. You need to reproof regularly with the Nikwax stuff. But the jackets last forever and are immensely practical
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This thread has prompted me to get around to selling my Paramo Quito. If interested, see https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=127980.0
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even the lighter Paramo jackets run warm
Most of my rides consist of slogging uphill for 30-60 minutes, then freezing downhill for 5-10 minutes.
Very difficult to control temperature/sweatiness under those conditions.
I find the adaptability of Paramo kit, with pit zips, double ended main zips etc works much better than Gortex/Endura etc.
You know that horrible sensation of putting on a jacket that's wet inside after a cafe stop?
If my Paramo kit gets a bit sweaty, it doesn't stay wet and cold inside.
I do tend to run cold and always prioritise staying warm over being cold. And I live in the N.Pennines...
And I hate having to buy new kit - never seem to find what I want. This Paramo kit will outlive me.
Paramo's excellent repair service does tend to have a long waiting list, but you can repair by home sewing, as there is no membrane to puncture.
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Mrs LJ has a Paramo jacket of some sort and she loves it. It does seem to keep out the rain and I like the ethos of the company - repairable and made responsibly. But is it just a nicely made jacket with a chemical waterproofing that you wash in? In other words would you get the same sort of waterproofing by just buying a cheap-made-by-slave-labour jacket and chucking it in the washing machine with some Nikwax?
I am not having a go at Paramo, I like the ethos of the company as I said above, and I have started trying to buy clothes that are better made so that they last longer, and with less man-made fibre.
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Mrs LJ has a Paramo jacket of some sort and she loves it. It does seem to keep out the rain and I like the ethos of the company - repairable and made responsibly. But is it just a nicely made jacket with a chemical waterproofing that you wash in? In other words would you get the same sort of waterproofing by just buying a cheap-made-by-slave-labour jacket and chucking it in the washing machine with some Nikwax?
I am not having a go at Paramo, I like the ethos of the company as I said above, and I have started trying to buy clothes that are better made so that they last longer, and with less man-made fibre.
I think the layers of fabric make a difference. Paramo have a whole system of layers of fabric, each with a different weave and material to get a specific behaviour.
Outer layer provides Directional water-repellency while the Pump Liner actively pushes liquid moisture away from the body keeping you dry from precipitation, perspiration and condensation.
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In my experience as a very sweaty person, even the lighter Paramo jackets run warm and are not as breathable as the best Gore-Tex. You need to reproof regularly with the Nikwax stuff. But the jackets last forever and are immensely practical
They are also almost silent to wear, which can be important in certain pastimes.
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Mrs LJ has a Paramo jacket of some sort and she loves it. It does seem to keep out the rain and I like the ethos of the company - repairable and made responsibly. But is it just a nicely made jacket with a chemical waterproofing that you wash in? In other words would you get the same sort of waterproofing by just buying a cheap-made-by-slave-labour jacket and chucking it in the washing machine with some Nikwax?
I am not having a go at Paramo, I like the ethos of the company as I said above, and I have started trying to buy clothes that are better made so that they last longer, and with less man-made fibre.
Nickwax do sell a range of proofing chemicals for different fabrics. But a plus of the Paramo kit is it's very comfortable to wear - bearing in mind it isn't designed for cycling specifically in general. And as other have noted, a lifetime repair, inclusing if you rip it - which is quite hard to do.
You could iuse your analogy to describe bicycles too of course. A cheap bicycle does most of the functions of one costing many multiples of it's cost.
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A point to remember when buying Paramo garments, and I think the company say it themselves, their garments are very Anglo-Saxon in sizing. That is, if you're normally a medium, you'll want a small in Paramo, etc.
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Another fan here after trying several over the years. Now have two waterproofs, the multi pocketed heavy duty Pajaro and the slightly lighter Alta III. Also have the Bentu windproof and matching mid layer fleece and best of all the Cascada trousers - but they are NOT cycling compatible at all - just the most comfy waterproof, not sweaty, walking trousers, best worn next to the skin.
Personal plus points:
1. Comfy, as in non laminated plastic Goretex etc, which I've always defaulted to previously since 1990
2. The non bonded mesh lining, as in no body in contact with the outer shell.
3. Pit zip and double ended front zip help somewhat controlling heat.
4. Decent sized velcro cinching wrist openings, so as not to fight with gloves.
5. Repairability
Cons:
1. Heavy
2. Jackets only come with substantial hoods, which adds to the weight. A stud fastened removable one would be ace though?
3. Non-aero = baggy
4. They do benefit from regular Nikwax TX washes and Nikwax wash in re-proofer maybe once a year, depending?
5. Not always a fan of some of their 'colourway' design choices :-\
Deffo not chain gang kit. More for pootlers, beardies and sandalers? They are warm - but as I've now added 2 e-assist bikes to the stable, I don't have to sweat up the Welsh mountains if I so choose. If it's going to be a wet or even just cold day, I'll ride with the jacket always on - and use minimal merino wool undergarments. And as mentioned, the mesh liner absolutely prevents any damp clothes coming into contact with a condensated outer shell. I do wish there was a removable lighter hood version - the hoods are obviously designed for maximum protection out on blizzardy mountain tops. Even if wrapped up and buttoned down, it feels like a monkey catching a ride on one's back - or alternatively just a lot of fabric flapping about.
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ps My local shop does mail order with attractive discounts
https://www.cribgochoutdoor.com/paramo
as does the also recommended company
https://www.foothills.uk.com/
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I've got 3 jackets and a pair of keks, the only downside I've found is that they dont cope well with being compressed, either under a rucksack or by sitting on them. Carrying a heavy pack in the rain means it'll wet through and stay wet, but probably no wetter than sweat under a goretex. I love the trousers for hiking and slow biking but not for sedentary stuff; sitting on a boat in the rain means you get really wet backside.
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I got my first paramo when they first came out. '94 I think. Iirc cascada came out then alta which i got. When I got mine the aspira smock and salopettes for alpine, winter mountaineering and ski mountaineering had just come out. Early designs were not great with the ban on velcro causing he wide cuff fabric to fall out of the popper adjusted cuffs in a most annoying way. They did the job though and were cheap! I got trousers , jacket, a 200 weight fleece, silva type 4 compass and a base layer for about £200!
Apparently the actual idea was a guide based in the Lakes. He developed the design and prototypes with Nikwax coming in towards the end of that process. I met a guy who owns an outdoor shop for decades and knew the guy before it got taken on by Nick Brown. The early designs features I didn't like came from him I reckon. Anyway I stopped wearing paramo for 10 years or so because of the original designs and later fit / sizing.
In more modern times designs are light years better. Biggest improvement is fit. They have different fits from short, fat dog walker to athletic-ish slimmer fit in the mountaineering smock / jacket. If you like smocks there's 3 models and they fit differently too. There's also better design cuffs with velcro.
Fabric layers work by wicking or pumping sweat through the inner layer. That keeps moisture away from your skin but wetting out in heavy rain of the outer fabric can mean it doesn't dry out. Rain stops it does like a softshell. To me paramo is like a two layer softshell like rab vapour rise but better in that it resists rain longer. With trousers if you put your knee down to scramble up somewhere it will force water through and you'll feel the cold water on your skin. A heavy pack in rain can have the same effect where the straps are. Pressure forces water through.
Now my advice is to go to a premium retailer or an actual brand shop. You need to try them on. Don't go by advice of others, colour or design features. You want a good fit first. The only exception to this is certain use considerations. Velez adventure lite is an athletic-ish fit and unlike any of the other two velez versions in fit. Any lite versions of the paramo analogy isn't great 8n prolonged heavy rain but will dry quicker than the standard versions. That might suit of course.
If you doubt it then his about this for testimony? One winter wildcamping trip i fell through snow into a hidden tarn. Not far from the edge but I got wet halfway up my thigh.i got very cold, very quickly.i was wearing softshell trousers and a rab vapour ruse jacket. I pulled in behind a low outcrop to get out of the wind and put my ancient cascada trousers on. Then set off to the camp spot and actually back to nearer the cars. I was planning ti go home as I was suffering. Anyway 10 minutes later I realised my trousers underneath were dry. Wicking softshell trousers and paramo did it. I was warm except my hands that had got wet as well. Even my second boss couldn't warm the so I went home, so did everyone in the end.
In summer it is simply too not for active use. When I first got paramo I used a buffalo windshirt over a thin paramo fleece, mountain m shirt I think they called it. A predecessor to their system fleeces which work with their windproof tops to create effectively the analogy waterproof. The original fleece was reversible for warmth or cooling but not as good as current fleeces. Howgood enough for heavy summer rain with a windproof.
TL:DR
It's good but try the all out. Get one that fits. Sort out a summer/ warmer weather alternative. It's not perfect so consider your alternatives too. Opinions of others matter less than what you think having tried them on in the shop. You might like the idea but it might not work for you.
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even the lighter Paramo jackets run warm
Very difficult to control temperature/sweatiness under those conditions.
I find the adaptability of Paramo kit, with pit zips, double ended main zips etc works much better than Gortex/Endura etc.
That’s not the binary choice though. I for instance don’t wear a waterproof on the bike. The concepts Paramo adopts are much older, and you can create combinations that work in a similar, even better way (if you run hot), more comfortable majority of time, and more adaptable.
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Paramo don't use PFCs which some other companies are finding challenging.
When you no longer have a use for Paramo garments, you can send them back for re-cycling, and get a voucher for money off a new garment.
If suitable, the garment is cleaned, mended, refurbished and reproofed and sold as pre-used on the Paramo outlet page on e-bay.
Otherwise it goes to specialist recycling.
The outlet also sells seconds, end of line and ex-display garments. Worth a look.
Mine are probably going to out-live me, perhaps I should put them in my will?
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I keep reading this as Nikwax Apology
And I keep wondering what Nikwax is an analogy for.
Awinkx.
On no. That's an anagram.
It's an analogy of hair-covered mammal skin…
This. Is why I clicked into this thread. Thanks all.
Most of my rides consist of slogging uphill for 30-60 minutes,
Same here. Though I've never timed it. My average loop is a little over an hour and a half, translating to a significant slog percentage.
then freezing downhill for 5-10 minutes.
Very difficult to control temperature/sweatiness under those conditions...
I've settled on a garden variety, light fleece (when it's chilly enough I won't start sweating. Which it usually is though most of autumn and winter). Don't expect that to be a popular option for a variety of reasons, including the fact that it's not actually waterproof.
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One more thing, not to do with the fabric as such, but Paramo is one of the few companies that make hoods which actually work, for me, ie they turn with the head and are adjustable to your size and shape, rather than leaving you blind when you look around.