Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Audax => Topic started by: Jethro on 19 January, 2009, 02:59:06 pm
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With the next PBP in just 2-years time and which is already firmly on my "to do" list that year, can someone tell me when the qualifying rides begin?
Do they begin from 1st January 2011 or from 1st November 2010 (the start of the Audax UK year)?
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With the next PBP in just 2-years time and which is already firmly on my "to do" list that year, can someone tell me when the qualifying rides begin?
Do they begin from 1st January 2011 or from 1st November 2010 (the start of the Audax UK year)?
The former.
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Last time they began on the 1st of Jan in the UK
It varies from country to country and at the whim of the ACP
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It varies from country to country and at the whim of the ACP
Correct, southern hemisphere countries usually start their qualifying rides from the 1st November before PBP.
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Even the 1st of january is debatable. ACP stipulates for domestic BRM's the first of march as the date where you can start your qualifying.
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For 2007 it was this:-
From: http://www.aukweb.net/pbp/index.htm (http://www.aukweb.net/pbp/index.htm)
"
The following dates are provisional
Specifically, in the UK, a 200 by April 22
A 300 from April 7 to May 20
A 400 from April 28 to June 3
A 600 from May 17 to June 19
"
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I am not as experienced as others on here but would suggest you go through the qualification process (with the milestone dates as Greenbank suggests) at least the season before and check the qualification requirements towards the end of 2010.
H
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my homologated (?) 2007 200 qualifier was definitely the January Well Fed; although I did do a few more within the qualifying period.
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ACPpovides dates between whoch eahc distance must be held. However, these dates apply for the French rides. It is advised to all foreign organisers, by their country's representative with les randonneurs mondiaux, to stick to these dates, but there is no strict control on this. any qualification ride from 1-1-2011 to a fwe weeks before the PBP event -enscription starts, should do. Sometimes the enscriptionn opens before the last 600 km rides have taken place; you just povide the start location and the clubs name of your 600 and the French organizers will put in your homologation number later.
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Less than 2 hours ago the ACP representative on the French forum wrote the following
Quelques nouvelles toutes fraiches au sujet des inscriptions pour le PBP Randonneur 2011 :
- Le principe d'une limitation du nombre de participants est maintenu. Des quotas seront déterminés par pays début 2011 en fonction du nombre d'inscrits en 2007 et de l'évolution de la participation aux Brevets de Randonneurs Mondiaux entre 2006 et 2010. Seuls les pays ayant inscrits plus de 50 personnes seront soumis aux quotas. Le nombre maximum d'inscrits n'a pas été décidé à ce jour.
- La priorité au moment des inscriptions sera donnée aux personnes ayant réalisé des BRM en 2010. Par exemple :
* si vous avez réalisé un BRM de 400 km en 2010, vous pourrez vous inscrire à partir du 15 avril 2011.
* si vous avez réalisé un BRM de 300 km en 2010, vous pourrez vous inscrire à partir du 01 mai 2011.
* si vous avez réalisé un brevet de 200 km en 2010, vous pourrez vous inscrire à partir du 15 mai 2011.
* si vous n'avez pas réalisé de BRM en 2010, vous ne pourrez vous inscrire qu'à partir du 01 juin 2011.
Ces dates sont encore à définir et serons communiquées début 2011.
- Nous demanderons à ce que les brevets de 400km organisés en France en 2010 débutent en soirée pour habituer les randonneurs à rouler une nuit complète.
- Nous conservons la série de 4 BRM (200, 300, 400 et 600) homologués en 2011 comme qualificatifs pour le PBP 2011.
In short, for 2011 there will be national quota based on the number of participants in PBP 2007 and the development of participation in local BRM's. Those who have done a BRM 400 in 2010 will be allowed to register earlier as those who have completed shorter BRM's in 2010. Those who have done no BRM's in 2010 will only be allowed to register their participation towards the end.
For AUK I can see a problem with the low amount of BRM rated events. Organisers should consider organising their events not only as BR's but also as BRM's to keep the quota up and allow riders to obtain their seedings.
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For AUK I can see a problem with the low amount of BRM rated events.
Thanks Ivo.
Strangely enough we were discussing the dearth of BRM events in this year's calendar.
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Does this mean that participents will register in April, well before actually completing the SR series in 2011 that they'll need to qualify? Surely that means there will be a fair few people who register then don't complete the SR?
I'm not an organiser, so a bit unclear on the difference in real terms between running a BR and a BRM. Can anyone explain the difference? And can any Scottish organisers confirm that they'll be running 400 BRMs in 2010? Please?
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BRM's are registered with ACP - 2010 events have to be in by September this year. The early registration and the fact that it costs a bit more to validate are the main reasons why there are so few outside PBP years.
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Does this mean that participents will register in April, well before actually completing the SR series in 2011 that they'll need to qualify? Surely that means there will be a fair few people who register then don't complete the SR?
In the previous years it was possible to register before you rode your 600. In such a case you would simply mention the date of the 600 you were planning to ride. For the ACP it's quite simple to match the result sheets of that 600 with your name.
It sound logical that those who don't complete their series will loose their registration.
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BRM's are registered with ACP - 2010 events have to be in by September this year. The early registration and the fact that it costs a bit more to validate are the main reasons why there are so few outside PBP years.
So the ACP is early enough with it's outline of the new rules. Organisers can still decide to get their planned events registered as BRM's. With such a rule those organisers that have their events BRM validated will attract more participants.
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I don't remember it being any real problem getting the regular events uprated to BRM in 2007; I think the entry fee was about £1 higher and the minimum speed was upped to 15kph but other than that they all ran as normal (and take heed; some were oversubscribed)
Those who rode SR's in 2006/7 will remember the massive rumour mill about what PBP entry conditions ACP might place upon riders and in the end it all came to nothing with them guaranteeing entry to all overseas SR's; but I suppose eventually there will be limits
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I think the entry fee was about £1 higher and the minimum speed was upped to 15kph
IIRC for BRM events, the minimum speed of 15kph (same as BR) applies to the nominal distance with no allowance for over distance.
e.g. for the BCM at 620km the BRM time limit is 40hrs, over an hour less than the AUK limit based on 15kph for the actual distance
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I don't remember it being any real problem getting the regular events uprated to BRM in 2007; I think the entry fee was about £1 higher and the minimum speed was upped to 15kph but other than that they all ran as normal (and take heed; some were oversubscribed)
Over-distance BRM brevets aren't allowed for - a rider on a 320 km BRM still only gets 20 hours to complete it. Effectively the minimum speed for over-distance brevets is above 15 kph.
Apparently the French authorities have limited entries to the next PBP to 5000, not the ACP.
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Apparently the French authorities have limited entries to the next PBP to 5000, not the ACP.
This limit was allready in place in 2007 but not all to strictly enforced.
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I think the entry fee was about £1 higher and the minimum speed was upped to 15kph
IIRC for BRM events, the minimum speed of 15kph (same as BR) applies to the nominal distance with no allowance for over distance.
e.g. for the BCM at 620km the BRM time limit is 40hrs, over an hour less than the AUK limit based on 15kph for the actual distance
IIRC the BCM is normally 14.3kph in non PBP years and being about 20k overdistance depending on which version you ride can be 2 hrs longer as a BR than a BRM, There was even another rumour about them placing a checkpoint at exactly 600km to ensure everyone got there within the 40 hrs which didn't happen in the end in 2007 with everyone getting round the full distance within time.
I would say any 400 orgs would be well advised to BRM-ify their event for 2010 it will certainly guarantee a big field.
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I would say any 400 orgs would be well advised to BRM-ify their event for 2010 it will certainly guarantee a big field.
This year there were/are the following BRM of 400km and over (excluding LEL):-
10-APR: 400 : Easter Flêches to York
16-MAY: 400: Invicta 400
23-MAY: 400: Plains
30-MAY: 600: Kernow & SouthWest
06-JUN: 600: Cambrian
11-JUL: 600: South then North
I'd assume that a BRM 600 would substitute for a BRM 400.
If PBP is likely to fill up more quickly it makes the most sense to do this...
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The ACP don't generally take fleche results into account for PBP qualification, so the Easter Arrow wouldn't necessarily apply.
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I find this bit slightly sinister. (Remember, every BRM event is a source of income for ACP)
l'évolution de la participation aux Brevets de Randonneurs Mondiaux entre 2006 et 2010.
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I'd assume that a BRM 600 would substitute for a BRM 400.
If PBP is likely to fill up more quickly it makes the most sense to do this...
I wouldn't bank on that; a 600 to the average rider offers more sleep opportunity and thus less night riding (which is inevitable for the 90 hr riders on PBP). And wasn't the 2 hr extension which wasn't; but was; but wasn't due to the logjam created at Loudieac and Carhaix due to so many riders stopping over there?
I'd recommend anyone who wants to not just ensure entry to PBP but also enjoy it to go for a full BRM SR the year before.
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I'd recommend anyone who wants to not just ensure entry to PBP but also enjoy it to go for a full BRM SR the year before.
I was just wondering if the French have eyes on the double SR series as standard qualification in the future.
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I'd recommend anyone who wants to not just ensure entry to PBP but also enjoy it to go for a full BRM SR the year before.
I was just wondering if the French have eyes on the double SR series as standard qualification in the future.
I don't think that's practical; not least because the Americans and Japanese don't have enough holiday to manage it (many were using their entire leave for the year to fly to Paris do PBP then fly back having done the basic SR) but I think eventually we'll see the SR the year before required (which the 400 looks like being a pilot of) which I believe RUSA tried voluntarily a few years back to try to improve their country's success rate.
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I'd recommend anyone who wants to not just ensure entry to PBP but also enjoy it to go for a full BRM SR the year before.
I was just wondering if the French have eyes on the double SR series as standard qualification in the future.
I don't think that's practical; not least because the Americans and Japanese don't have enough holiday to manage it (many were using their entire leave for the year to fly to Paris do PBP then fly back having done the basic SR) but I think eventually we'll see the SR the year before which I believe RUSA tried voluntarily a few years back to try to improve their country's success rate.
Sorry Martin, I meant a second SR the year before PBP, not a double SR in the same year as PBP.
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Sorry Martin, I meant a second SR the year before PBP, not a double SR in the same year as PBP.
or even a first? ;)
looking at the OP it looks like you can register without having even ridden a 400 / 600 in the qualifying year (although I assume you will of course have to do them before your entry is confirmed) maybe it's just a way of spreading out their admin? Remember also that many of us went and did the BCM in the knowledge that we'd be the first UK qualifiers although in the end all the entries went in together.
FF; this BRM400 will create a possible maximum of £5000 extra for ACP; doesn't seem that sinister.
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Sorry Martin, I meant a second SR the year before PBP, not a double SR in the same year as PBP.
or even a first? ;)
looking at the OP it looks like you can register without having even ridden a 400 / 600 in the qualifying year (although I assume you will of course have to do them before your entry is confirmed) maybe it's just a way of spreading out their admin?
Well I suppose the key word is [as it translates] is, "The priority in enrollment will be given to persons who made BRM in 2010. " So surely anybody really keen to do PBP in 2011 will now feel by not doing a 400km in 2011 it's leaving their chances of qualification as being that much slimmer?
Anyway, what do you care, you're not doing it ;)
[Not sure I am either!]
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Part of the reason behind this probably is to weed out the cyclosportif riders who only do BRM's in the PBP year and are fast enough to opt for a 400 and a 600 with sleeping arrangements. These riders were having severe problems during PBP 2007. The strong advise to French organisers to organise their 400s in 2010 with an evening start only is an extra evidence for this. Loads of French organisers start in the early morning (like 4am) which means for the faster riders that they do their 400 with maybe 2-3 hours riding in the dark.
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And can any Scottish organisers confirm that they'll be running 400 BRMs in 2010? Please?
All very interesting -
Valkyrie -
I was toying with the idea of organising a 400 in 2010 (as I'm not planning to repeat a Lochaber weekend in 2010), BRM if need be. A bit more expensive all round and you dont get any extra time for the XX in 4XX distance is the main difference as far as I can see, which seems to encourage events that are "just and no more" over the required distance.
I have a notion of an Edinburgh - Berwick - Carlisle - Edinburgh which is just about bang on 400 but would like to ride it as a DIY before going anywhere with it. Redstone is great preparation for the Roc.
And in any event I'm sure some of the other "ususal suspects" will have qualfying events on offer too.
Does this mean that I get to start talking about PBP as soon as next year - great! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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BRM's are registered with ACP - 2010 events have to be in by September this year. The early registration and the fact that it costs a bit more to validate are the main reasons why there are so few outside PBP years.
Given that I am not an organiser and that I do not have an event at the moment- would it be possible for me to do the right stuff with paperwork etc to be a 400 organiser with a BRM event in 2010?
I mean in theory. Perhaps in practical terms it would not be sensible :) Although I am interested in doing this
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FF; this BRM400 will create a possible maximum of £5000 extra for ACP; doesn't seem that sinister.
Really I was thinking of the reference to 2006 - if countries are to be given preference based on their record going back that far, that really is moving the goalposts after the ball's been kicked. I know the Home Office does this sort of thing all the time, but I expect higher standards from ACP.
But I do believe this is mainly about money. PBP has to be financed, and some of that finance is derived from the tax they levy on every BRM ride ridden, all over the world. I've no complaints about that - I'm just saying - its the money, they want more BRM events everywhere, and 'qualification' is just a lever.
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PS Vorsprung I think (AUK's 'rules') you have to have organised a 200 before you can graduate to a 400 - though if exceptional circumstances arise (no-one else doing one in your area) maybe this will have to change.
There's nothing particularly problematic about organising BRM - the main differences:
* slightly altered finish times - in most cases, only a few minutes.
* a higher 'validation fee' per successful rider - means 50p or £1 added to the entry fee.
* you have to supply finish times on your results list (for non-BRM this is not necessary)
* (I assume) no self-validation, you have to send the cards in to AUK
* validation, and therefore return of cards, takes considerably longer.
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Given that I am not an organiser and that I do not have an event at the moment- would it be possible for me to do the right stuff with paperwork etc to be a 400 organiser with a BRM event in 2010?
I mean in theory. Perhaps in practical terms it would not be sensible :) Although I am interested in doing this
This is what the guidelines say-
Events of a standard distance over 200 km are not usually accepted from a new Organiser but exceptions may be made if you are taking over an existing event particularly if a previous Organiser is acting as Mentor and you have the backing and support of an experienced organisation.
Funnily enough I was thinking of something for the SW next year. French-style with a night start.
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Funnily enough I was thinking of something for the SW next year. French-style with a night start.
Maybe I could just help you with that
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Funnily enough I was thinking of something for the SW next year. French-style with a night start.
Maybe I could just help you with that
Funnily enough I was thinking...
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Strangely enough we were discussing the dearth of BRM events in this year's calendar.
I've never seen the necessity to run my BRs as BRMs, except in PBP year when the Events Secretary insisted on it. It costs more and the validation process takes much longer.
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Strangely enough we were discussing the dearth of BRM events in this year's calendar.
I've never seen the necessity to run my BRs as BRMs, except in PBP year when the Events Secretary insisted on it. It costs more and the validation process takes much longer.
ACP's Brevet 5000 award.
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What is the 'M' for?
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Mondiaux (http://www.lesrandonneursmondiaux.org/)
(Sorry)
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What is the 'M' for?
Mondiaux ( "World" ) as the BRM is a world recognised thing
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Thanks - so it's really different accreditation, rather than different conditions?
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Mondiaux (http://www.lesrandonneursmondiaux.org/)
(Sorry)
:o What an atrocious web site!
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Mondiaux (http://www.lesrandonneursmondiaux.org/)
(Sorry)
:o What an atrocious web site!
You haven't met the originator.
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I'd recommend anyone who wants to not just ensure entry to PBP but also enjoy it to go for a full BRM SR the year before.
I intend to do an SR every year anyway. Hopefully they'll be enough rides in 2010 that are BRM to make it easy. It will certainly affect my choice of rides for that year.
A BRM Severn Across in 2010 would be good (and probably very popular).
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Really I was thinking of the reference to 2006 - if countries are to be given preference based on their record going back that far, that really is moving the goalposts after the ball's been kicked. I know the Home Office does this sort of thing all the time, but I expect higher standards from ACP.
This part won't be of much influence to AUK. AUK is one of the organisations with a relatively stable amount of entrants for PBP. As I understood this is done because of the experience with especially Italy and Germany where the interest for randonneuring grew massively during the past few years. 2006 is taken as a benchmark (the year before PBP). The 2010 results will be compared with 2006. If the 2010 results will be about the same as in 2006, ACP will expect roughly the same amount of PBP entrants for that country. If the 2010 results show a massive difference with 2006 the quota for that particular country could be adapted, mostly to allow more riders as before. So for countries like Great Britain, Belgium, France and a few other classic PBP contries this won't change much.
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On the subject of BRM rides in the AUK calendar, this can be a problem in years other than PBP. This year for instance I need to do a BRM SR series to qualify for MGM in Spain. As far as I can make out from their website, non BRM events don't count. This then severely limits the options for qualifying in this country.
Does anybody know which (if any) other 1200km events require BRM series to qualify?
I think organisers should make more events BRM's The extra cost on the entry is hardly going to break the bank.
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I think organisers should make more events BRM's The extra cost on the entry is hardly going to break the bank.
If the organiser does the required gubbins for the event to qualify for BRM, could they offer both a BR and a BRM entry? Obviously the extra cost of the BRM entry can be passed on directly to the rider...
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I think organisers should make more events BRM's The extra cost on the entry is hardly going to break the bank.
If the organiser does the required gubbins for the event to qualify for BRM, could they offer both a BR and a BRM entry? Obviously the extra cost of the BRM entry can be passed on directly to the rider...
Isn't part of the 'problem' the fact that the event needs to be organised quite early? IIRC there's no option to add a late season ride to the list after the cut-off date (September?).
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Isn't part of the 'problem' the fact that the event needs to be organised quite early? IIRC there's no option to add a late season ride to the list after the cut-off date (September?).
No. Required dates are only for direct PBP qualification in 2011. So it would be perfectly possible to organise a 400 in for example september 2010, have it BRM rated and giving you a prefered starting spot.
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I think he meant that BRM events for 2010 have to be registered, approved and in the calendar by a September 2009 deadline.
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I think he meant that BRM events for 2010 have to be registered, approved and in the calendar by a September 2009 deadline.
Bingo.
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I think organisers should make more events BRM's The extra cost on the entry is hardly going to break the bank.
Up to now, Orgs haven't been encouraged to do this. In years gone by, ACP have even discouraged AUK from swamping the international calendar with too many UK events. Obviously now there may be a change of emphasis.
And it has to be mentioned that BRM events are very hard going for those at the validation end of things - a lot of extra work for (from AUK's point of view) no return.
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Does anybody know which (if any) other 1200km events require BRM series to qualify?
Most North American 1200s and the Scandinavian Super Brevet 1200 require an SR as qualification. Some organisers have accepted BR, rather than BRM.
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Does anybody know which (if any) other 1200km events require BRM series to qualify?
1001 Miglia Italia (1600km), which is running again in 2010, required either a 2007 PBP or a 2008 LRM 600. Otherwise you could impress the organiser with your impressive palmares. I got the impression that in practice all you had to do was to ask nicely.
No qualifying requirements for Hamburg-Berlin-Köln-Hamburg 1500 (also due to be held in 2010)
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Funnily enough I was thinking of something for the SW next year. French-style with a night start.
Ian, I guess you mean your 600.
A night-start 400 sounds ghastly (finishing in the dark for nearly everyone).
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A night-start 400 sounds ghastly (finishing in the dark for nearly everyone).
Vorsprung and I are plotting.
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Does anybody know which (if any) other 1200km events require BRM series to qualify?
Most North American 1200s and the Scandinavian Super Brevet 1200 require an SR as qualification. Some organisers have accepted BR, rather than BRM.
to clarify; is there any reason why almost all UK calendar BR's are run at a minimum 15kph rather than the minimum possible of 14.3 other than to save having to retime them in PBP year?
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to clarify; is there any reason why almost all UK calendar BR's are run at a minimum 15kph rather than the minimum possible of 14.3 other than to save having to retime them in PBP year?
I think the organisers' page defaults to 15.
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to clarify; is there any reason why almost all UK calendar BR's are run at a minimum 15kph rather than the minimum possible of 14.3 other than to save having to retime them in PBP year?
I think the organisers' page defaults to 15.
I thought 15 was the minimum; right up until I completed my first and only DIY 400
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1001 Miglia Italia (1600km), which is running again in 2010, required either a 2007 PBP or a 2008 LRM 600. Otherwise you could impress the organiser with your impressive palmares. I got the impression that in practice all you had to do was to ask nicely.
Interesting stuff [you can count on JS to know these kind of details]. How come they're running it again in 2010, two years after 2008? I suppose the answer is: because they want too, I guess!
No qualifying requirements for Hamburg-Berlin-Köln-Hamburg 1500 (also due to be held in 2010)
Also interesting. But quite frankly, with all this hoo-ha, as this ride is in 2010, I could only consider such an undertaking if it was classified as a BRM ;D
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Interesting stuff [you can count on JS to know these kind of details]. How come they're running it again in 2010, two years after 2008? I suppose the answer is: because they want too, I guess!
Since you asked:
La manifestazione verrà riproposta nel 2010 con cadenza biennale con il traguardo di inserirsi tra le manifestazioni a livello mondiale che si svolgeranno nel 2015 in occasione dell’ EXPO MONDIALE MILANO 2015.
They want to make it a world-class event by the time Milan becomes the centre of world attention in 2015 (http://www.milanoexpo-2015.com/?&lin=2). Four years would give them only one chance (2012) to get things right by then. That seems to be the theory, anyway.
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I thought 15 was the minimum; right up until I completed my first and only DIY 400
I think it should be made the minimum. Note that this would have put me out of time on last year's Dean and also several DIY rides I've done (I finished Thorne to Alston DIY 200 with 2 minutes to spare thanks to 14.3kph and 20km-ish detour to follow the LEL route through Coxwold.)
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1001 Miglia Italia (1600km), which is running again in 2010...
I was really inspired by tales and RR of this ride (and not just the roadside whores either) and would be tempted to foreign climes in the future although possibly not PBP again.
Unfortunately, it is highly unlikely that I will be doing anything like this next year as it wipes out my life at weekends too much and can only be tolerated on alternate years.
Otherwise you could impress the organiser with your impressive palmares.
Oh John, you are awful.....
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/content/images/2007/08/08/dickemery1_396x222.jpg)
H
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Funnily enough I was thinking of something for the SW next year. French-style with a night start.
Ian, I guess you mean your 600.
A night-start 400 sounds ghastly (finishing in the dark for nearly everyone).
French style means bagpipes at the start
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So that's a sprint start then?
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Audax Australia recently received more information from the ACP (also
circulated to the other members of LRM) regarding 2011 PBP
qualification. You can read it in French and English at
Audax Australia (http://audax.org.au/public/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=363&Itemid=333%3E%20&task=view&id=363&Itemid=333)
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So basically - if you don't do a BRM 400k in 2010 the odds of you being part of the UK entry are fairly slim.
Also the cut-off dates will not be defined until 2011 - so they can move the goal posts after the event if they have to. Sounds like it makes sense to do a full BRM SR in 2010 if there is an opportunity.
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And, the more BRM km that the UK riders do (whether they enter PBP or not) in 2010 the more places it will receive.
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So do we need a proposal for the next AGM that AUK should work to encourage/promote a greater number of BRM calendar rides in 2010 in order to cope with this new rule?
I guess most organisers will become aware of this sooner or later and will have to make their rides BRM if they want to get the numbers.
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There's a September '09 cut-off date for '10 BRMs, so leaving it until the AGM (Nov / Dec?) will be too late. Unless you want to talk about '11 BRMs...
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I've asked on the AUK mailing list:
Yahoo! Groups (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/audax/message/31728)
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So do we need a proposal for the next AGM that AUK should work to encourage/promote a greater number of BRM calendar rides in 2010 in order to cope with this new rule?
I guess most organisers will become aware of this sooner or later and will have to make their rides BRM if they want to get the numbers.
Oddly enough, this was discussed at the last committee meeting (before ACP's latest news appeared.) In the past, there have been only a few BRM events in non-PBP years, mainly, I suspect, because that's the way particular organisers have done it. It is quite useful too for other ACP stuff, like their Brevet 5000, which is free, but no doubt funded by all your entered BRMs.
I don't think it's appropriate to go to the AGM, which would be too late in any case, as it is the choice of individual organisers and Sheila is going to encourage them to go for BRMs rather thsn BRs. It will be just as efective for riders to try now to get organisers of their favourite events to go for the additional recognition, given that these submissions have to be made much earlier.
The downsides are that such events will be a pound or so more expensive, which shouldn't bother many guys, and an interminable delay before the Brevet cards are returned, which probably will.
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The downsides are that such events will be a pound or so more expensive, which shouldn't bother many guys, and an interminable delay before the Brevet cards are returned, which probably will.
Is it feasible to make an event BRM but offer a corresponding BR event (or just lack of BRM validation) for people that aren't interested in it? I understand this would be extra complications for the organisers...
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The downsides are that such events will be a pound or so more expensive, which shouldn't bother many guys, and an interminable delay before the Brevet cards are returned, which probably will.
Is it feasible to make an event BRM but offer a corresponding BR event (or just lack of BRM validation) for people that aren't interested in it? I understand this would be extra complications for the organisers...
Too much farting around for the odd quid saving. The extra hassle would continue all the way to the validation team.
Previously results have been posted on the website without waiting for ACP's validation. I'm not aware of ACP refusing any validation we've said is okay.
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OK, makes sense. The extra validation delay doesn't worry me.
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The downsides are that such events will be a pound or so more expensive, which shouldn't bother many guys, and an interminable delay before the Brevet cards are returned, which probably will.
Is it feasible to make an event BRM but offer a corresponding BR event (or just lack of BRM validation) for people that aren't interested in it? I understand this would be extra complications for the organisers...
This wouldn't help to keep the UK quota at a serious level.
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The formula as proposed will favour countries which show a big increase in RM activity in 2010 compared with 2006.
If we'd known about this back then we'd have run far fewer RM events in 2006 ...
If you're being assessed, its always good to start from a low base.
(As a matter of interest, AUK's RM activity in 2008 was less than half that in 2006 ... )
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We'll just have to start making PBP look less attractive. I think there are two types of rider, those who view it as a challenge and those who see it as the pinnacle of Audax. The more articles there are in the more general press the more interest it will arouse in the first group.
We need more articles emphasising the downside of PBP.
Damon.
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Pictures of riders holding their head up with one hand as they negotiate the final roundabout?
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We need more articles emphasising the downside of PBP.
Ever get the feeling you've just found your calling in life?
Maybe ACP could get Andre Previn to appear in a TV advert which would see him lying in a ditch, trying to get some sleep but shivvering uncontrollably with cold and muttering incoherently, 'I appearaed on the PBP show and look what happened to me!'
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We need more articles emphasising the downside of PBP.
Ever get the feeling you've just found your calling in life?
I think you may be onto something there.
I don't think I've ever met two more miserable people than your good self and the Mayor-elect at Mortagne.
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My own personal contribution to the cause from the last roundabout.
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1324/1356084150_226196ce4a.jpg?v=0)
With thanks to Tim Wainwright
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We need more articles emphasising the downside of PBP.
Ever get the feeling you've just found your calling in life?
I think you may be onto something there.
I don't think I've ever met two more miserable people than your good self and the Mayor-elect at Mortagne.
You should have seen me at Loudeac on the return, I'd brightened considerably by Mortagne.
Although it's probably Garry B you mean.
Damon.
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We need more articles emphasising the downside of PBP.
Ever get the feeling you've just found your calling in life?
I think you may be onto something there.
I don't think I've ever met two more miserable people than your good self and the Mayor-elect at Mortagne.
You should have seen me at Loudeac on the return, I'd brightened considerably by Mortagne.
Damon.
Sorry, I meant garryb & the Mayor. Heather was there at the time (that's where she briefly interviewed me) but missed the two blokes grumbling in the corner.
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We need more articles emphasising the downside of PBP.
Ever get the feeling you've just found your calling in life?
I think you may be onto something there.
I don't think I've ever met two more miserable people than your good self and the Mayor-elect at Mortagne.
:D
That's a rather negative thing to say about somebody John, I thought I was feeling rather positive myself :) [I can do much worse than that......soon to be released in either Germany or Italy!]
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I would have thought that all that rain on that foam seat can't have been comfortable Garry.
http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/ImagesPBP/dscn_dc0bbdd1a8d4ea608c480ecf11498664706409d220080404173425_mh-0.jpg
Damon.
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I would have thought that all that rain on that foam seat can't have been comfortable Garry.
http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/ImagesPBP/dscn_dc0bbdd1a8d4ea608c480ecf11498664706409d220080404173425_mh-0.jpg
Damon.
In all honesty the rain-soaked seat foam was fine - the main problem was the condition of the object it was cradling for 4 days. In fact the bike held up much better than I did. Without a lot of experience, I chanced my arm in 2007, and got lucky. It could have been so very different. I'm thankful. But I'm not sure I'd rush to do it again without some confidence I could up the speed, just a little, to grab a bit of proper kip.
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So basically - if you don't do a BRM 400k in 2010 the odds of you being part of the UK entry are fairly slim.
Also the cut-off dates will not be defined until 2011 - so they can move the goal posts after the event if they have to. Sounds like it makes sense to do a full BRM SR in 2010 if there is an opportunity.
I'd go along with that; there were all sorts of rumours flying round in 2006 which caused a few of us to do an SR "just in case"; to quote MV "don't underestimate PBP frenzy" there were waiting lists for many of the 2007 quallies (although I don't think anyone failed to get in for lack of getting onto a ride)
Apart from that it was a great psychological boost to know that you could do it a year before with presumably a lot less km
I don't think anyone organising a 300-600 in 2010 need worry too much about being out of pocket if they register it as a BRM; perhaps AUK might offer sort of guarantee over this?
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If you met garryb in the street you'd think he was quite normal. It's most unsettling.
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If you met garryb in the street you'd think he was quite normal. It's most unsettling.
I rode some of the way down with Garry and his bike attracted interest and admiration wherever it went
It was the "unusual cycles" that people most remember (saw a few of the Dutch torpedoes but not the Space Shuttle)
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Please forgive my ignorance (I'm a newbie to your world), but having now recovered from LEL (and a week's orienteering in Scotland), I want more, and I want it large!
Me and my LEL mate Big Dan, have our long-term sights set on PBP 2011.
What I don't fully understand is what steps I have to take to qualify and enter for the PBP in 2011? Or what the timescale is?
Can anyone explain the process, or at least point me in the right direction? Please.
In particular, is there a way to guarantee an entry? And would the entry be done via Audax UK somehow?
Many thanks,
Andy T from Macclesfield
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You have to do a 200 by March 300 by April 400 by May and 600 by June (roughly) from Mar 2011 to Jun 2011; in 2007 they allowed the period to start on Jan 1; all events must be BRM, I imagine almost every relevant distance event in the periods will be BRM in 2011 even though very few are in other years. the only difference between a BR (which every ride 200 and over in the UK is) and a BRM is that a BRM has a slightly higher minimum speed of 15kph which in practice most BR's are anyway; no extra time allowed for going over the relevant number of 100kms and an extra £1 to have the ride validated by ACP. You can ride the qualifiers in any country you like as long as they are BRM.
For 2010 there is a priority entry scheme whereby you get the earliest possible entry if you ride a BRM (has to be BRM; again I suspect most UK ones will be that year) 400 in 2010; in light of all the rumours about it being oversubscribed in 2007 and the very real possibility that it might be in 2011 I would strongly advise you to do this. If everyone in the world wanting to qualify does this there will not be any way of guaranteeing entry; although having threatened a limit on numbers in 2007 they did back down and allow anyone with a BRM SR in. I would advise anyone going for PBP to do an SR the year before anyway although if you've done LEL doesn't sound like it's an issue.
Your 2010 early entry place is of course subject to doing the full BRM SR in 2011; that is an absolute requirement.
Once you've bagged your BRM SR you can enter online (ACP will know exactly who you are and what you have ridden) and I assume Peter Marshall will handle all the payments centrally efficiently and seemlessly; the hardest part of entry is doing the rides, honest.
I've only done it once and it was through AUK; apparently you can enter independently (although I can't see the point if you are a member, it's so easy through AUK) and I'm sure someone will be along in a minute to explain this.
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First thing is to get permission from your significant other :)
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You know how I said I'd never ever ever do it again...
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First thing is to get permission from your significant other :)
Don't worry about getting permission, just ask her if she fancies a holiday near Paris, you can leave out the cycling part. ;D
I think I should organise a wife's camp nearby! Taking our hubbies credit cards would be complusory! ;)
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For 2010 there is a priority entry scheme whereby you get an early entry if you ride a BRM
Is that confirmed ?
It was rumoured last time, but didn't happen
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There will be quotas in 2011 for the 13 countries with the most PBP entrants in 2007, including Britain. The quota will be adjusted somewhat from the 2007 level by the number of BRMs ridden in 2010, relative to the other 12 countries. Britain has had about 300 entries for the last two PBPs and will certainly have a substantial increase in the number of BRMs ridden. It is likely that the British quota will increase and possible that their quota will not get filled.
In comparison, the Australian quota is likely to shrink slightly and is certain to be over-subscribed. Over-subscribed countries then get to select which of their entrants can actually ride PBP. Australia has chosen a capped mileage ranking priority.
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First thing is to get permission from your significant other :)
Don't worry about getting permission, just ask her if she fancies a holiday near Paris, you can leave out the cycling part. ;D
My wife has already suggested that I should do the PBP on those grounds as she fancies spending some time in Paris. Just have to do that SR then.
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Found the following http://www.rusa.org/pbp-2011-entries.html (http://www.rusa.org/pbp-2011-entries.html) that talks about ACP's plans to limit numbers.
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Found the following http://www.rusa.org/pbp-2011-entries.html (http://www.rusa.org/pbp-2011-entries.html) that talks about ACP's plans to limit numbers.
Interesting
That says:
For randonneurs, pre-registration via the Internet will allow people who made BRM in 2010 to reserve their participation for Paris-Brest-Paris. Longer is the homologated BRM distance and earlier they wil be able to pre-register. For example:
* With a BRM 400 km in 2010, they may register from 15 April 2011.
* With a BRM 300 km in 2010, they may register from 01 May 2011.
* With a BRM 200 km in 2010, they may register from 15 May 2011.
* by not realizing a BRM in 2010, they could not register until June 01, 2011.
These dates are still to be defined and will be communicated early 2011.
The series of 4 BRM (200, 300, 400 and 600) homologated in 2011 is still required to register for PBP 2011.
Best get pedalling.
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First thing is to get permission from your significant other :)
Don't worry about getting permission, just ask her if she fancies a holiday near Paris, you can leave out the cycling part. ;D
My wife has already suggested that I should do the PBP on those grounds as she fancies spending some time in Paris. Just have to do that SR then.
It's lovely, we did it last time, but alot of things in the local area are closed in August, that was the only 'nasty bit' and the weather!
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PBP 2011, rulechanges (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=17236.0)
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First thing is to get permission from your significant other :)
Don't worry about getting permission, just ask her if she fancies a holiday near Paris, you can leave out the cycling part. ;D
My wife has already suggested that I should do the PBP on those grounds as she fancies spending some time in Paris. Just have to do that SR then.
It's lovely, we did it last time, but alot of things in the local area are closed in August, that was the only 'nasty bit' and the weather!
rain ? what rain ?
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Please forgive my ignorance (I'm a newbie to your world), but having now recovered from LEL (and a week's orienteering in Scotland), I want more, and I want it large!
Me and my LEL mate Big Dan, have our long-term sights set on PBP 2011.
Good to hear from you Andy! Be sure to stick your oar in on the other threads; tell us how your ride went, B&B reviews, best painkillers etc ...
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First thing is to get permission from your significant other :)
Don't worry about getting permission, just ask her if she fancies a holiday near Paris, you can leave out the cycling part. ;D
My wife has already suggested that I should do the PBP on those grounds as she fancies spending some time in Paris. Just have to do that SR then.
It's lovely, we did it last time, but alot of things in the local area are closed in August, that was the only 'nasty bit' and the weather!
rain ? what rain ?
Ha...gave it way, I didn't mention rain! I just said weather! ;D
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First thing is to get permission from your significant other :)
Don't worry about getting permission, just ask her if she fancies a holiday near Paris, you can leave out the cycling part. ;D
My wife has already suggested that I should do the PBP on those grounds as she fancies spending some time in Paris. Just have to do that SR then.
It's lovely, we did it last time, but alot of things in the local area are closed in August, that was the only 'nasty bit' and the weather!
rain ? what rain ?
Ha...gave it way, I didn't mention rain! I just said weather! ;D
Ha! When MSeries overtook me it had just stopped raining...
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Ha! When MSeries overtook me it had just stopped raining...
Did it start again as soon as he'd gone?
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this is what we were all studying intently for 2 years or more before the last PBP;
PBP (http://www.aukweb.net/pbp/index.htm)
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First thing is to get permission from your significant other :)
Don't worry about getting permission, just ask her if she fancies a holiday near Paris, you can leave out the cycling part. ;D
I think I should organise a wife's camp nearby! Taking our hubbies credit cards would be complusory! ;)
no problem I'll just max it out on cycling kit the week before ;D :thumbsup:
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For 2010 there is a priority entry scheme whereby you get an early entry if you ride a BRM
Is that confirmed ?
Yes, it's confirmed. I think all sub-600 AUK events next year will be BRM by default, to give AUKs the best possible chance of PBP entry in 2011 if ACP finds it necessary to restrict entries.
I hope/assume ACP is prepared to handle the PBP-year-style workload...
Peter
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Yes, it's confirmed. I think all sub-600 AUK events next year will be BRM by default
What, even the 200s?
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What, even the 200s?
Don't know... Ask someone on the committee... Oh, hang on...
Since ACP's national entry quotas for 2011 will depend in part on how many BRM rides have been completed in each country, and there will be four staggered dates for PBP entries in 2011 (riders who have completed a BRM 400 in 2010 plus a qualifying series in 2011 can enter first, then riders who have ridden a BRM 300 in 2010 plus a qualifying series, then riders who have ridden a BRM 200 in 2010 plus a qualifying series, then riders who have ridden only a qualifying series in 2011), it would make sense for all AUK rides of 200-400 km in 2010 to be BRM events.
Peter
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Sorry I need more help here.....you boys speak a different language!
BR?
BRM?
SR?
ACP?
....and with reference to MattC (Hi Matt!)
B&B?! ;)
Andy T
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Sorry I need more help here.....you boys speak a different language!
BR?
BRM?
SR?
ACP?
Ah yes .... when we were telling you how LEL should be easier than PBP, we didn't even mention all that stuff. I bet you thought you just had to fill in a form en francais?
(Someone good at explaining fings will be along in a minute. But make sure you have a large cuppa at the ready.)
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If BRM is the 'default' then some planned events for next year are opted-out. But there are quite a few more than there were this year - between 30 and 40 in total I expect.
[
ACP = the Parisian organisers of PBP, and also the senior randonneur organisation world-wide.
BRM = an event which is run in a way that closely conforms to ACP's own regulations, and which is validated by ACP themselves. All PBP qualifying events are BRM.
BR = an (AUK) event which is run in the same spirit, but without conforming so rigidly to ACP's spec, and is therefore not validated by ACP.
]
[thanks for errata LWB]
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and SR; a qualifying series of 4 rides 200 300 400 600 all completed within the required timescale.
ps if you are going for the BRM 400 in 2010 you might as well get the whole set it's a good psycholigical boost even if you've done it before.
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Sorry I need more help here.....you boys speak a different language!
BR?
BRM?
SR?
ACP?
Ah yes .... when we were telling you how LEL should be easier than PBP, we didn't even mention all that stuff. I bet you thought you just had to fill in a form en francais?
(Someone good at explaining fings will be along in a minute. But make sure you have a large cuppa at the ready.)
I was hoping that I could just roll up with 100 Euros and enter on the start line...... ;)
And Matt, did you really have to mention the B&Bs? I'm still feeling guilty about not being happy with 1 square metre of concrete floor...... :-[
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This may help...
Audax FAQs (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1201.0)
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If BRM is the 'default' then some planned events for next year are opted-out. But there are quite a few more than there were this year - between 30 and 40 in total I expect.
[
ACP = the Parisian organisers of PBP, and also the senior randonneur organisation world-wide.
BRM = an event which is run in a way that closely conforms to ACP's own regulations, and which is validated by ACP themselves. All PBP qualifying events are BRM.
BR = an (AUK) event which is run in the same spirit, but without conforming so rigidly to ACP's spec, and is therefore not validated by ACP.
]
.. and much more importantly (from an Organiser's point of view) a BRM is more expensive and takes longer to validate than a BR, so I'd need to increase the already published entry fee if my event is to be upgraded
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Mike, couldn't you offer two prices, one for BR, the other for BRM? I'm sure that if it was a policy carried over via the AGM then all AUK's would be aware of it and plan their rides accordingly. Obviously the organisation of this may be a little more complex - to be honest all the organisers I've come across are extremely organised and should carry this out quite easily...
What do others think?
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Mike, couldn't you offer two prices, one for BR, the other for BRM? I'm sure that if it was a policy carried over via the AGM then all AUK's would be aware of it and plan their rides accordingly. Obviously the organisation of this may be a little more complex - to be honest all the organisers I've come across are extremely organised and should carry this out quite easily...
What do others think?
I think I'd not be in favour:
... ACP's national entry quotas for 2011 will depend in part on how many BRM rides have been completed in each country,
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.
What do others think?
I think all events in qualifier periods in the qualifier years (which includes 2010, 2011) should be BRMs. Paying a additional pound which was the 'surcharge' in 2007 is no big deal to me. Having more than one entry fee will lead to confusion for both riders and organisers. Make life easy for everyone. EDIT and as MV points out above, ithe quote from PeterM, the more AUK riders we have riding BRMs in 2010, the more places we'll get for PBP. So even if you are not going to ride PBP you'll be helping the riders who intend to by riding BRMs in 2010
What we do not want is having only certain events as BRMs and thus removing some choice for those wishing to qualify for PBP.
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Eek! Just read this:
BRM's are registered with ACP - 2010 events have to be in by September this year.
So we only have 2 weeks to register rides?!? (What exactly does 'register' entail?)
Is it still possible to start a 'Rockall Audax Club' and then avoid the quota system?!?
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Eek! Just read this:
BRM's are registered with ACP - 2010 events have to be in by September this year.
So we only have 2 weeks to register rides?!? (What exactly does 'register' entail?)
Check the organiser's calendar (with your password access). The deadlline banner shows Sept 13. Selecting 'BRM' as the event category automatically ensures it's registered with ACP.
Is it still possible to start a 'Rockall Audax Club' and then avoid the quota system?!?
You'd have to get that past ACP directly. Good luck.
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I thought you'd have better luck with Sealand (http://www.sealandgov.org/) than Rockall (http://web.archive.org/web/20071220134433/http://uk.geocities.com/church_of_rockall/). :)
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Check the organiser's calendar (with your password access). The deadlline banner shows Sept 13.
All I see (on my main Event Planner page) is:
The next deadline is 07 10 2009 Last orders for events before 01 03 2010
Am I going in through the wrong link?
But it's not important, I'm sure you're right!
Selecting 'BRM' as the event category automatically ensures it's registered with ACP.
Ah yes, I selected BRM - just 1 click, so that's good.
However, does my event need to be published to be 'registered with ACP'?
(I think it is quite close to publishable if I just duplicate the 2009 event and make amendments as they become necessary. But it took MONTHS to get the event published the first time - there is no way that I could, for example, get a new 400k event in by Sep 13th.)
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However, does my event need to be published to be 'registered with ACP'?
(I think it is quite close to publishable if I just duplicate the 2009 event and make amendments as they become necessary. But it took MONTHS to get the event published the first time - there is no way that I could, for example, get a new 400k event in by Sep 13th.)
I'm not sure whether PeterM sees unpublished events. All the regional events team are working to the same deadlines, so BRMs should go live in time. All organisers should note however that events must have completed risk assessments before they can be published.
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I thought you'd have better luck with Sealand (http://www.sealandgov.org/) than Rockall (http://web.archive.org/web/20071220134433/http://uk.geocities.com/church_of_rockall/). :)
It might be easier to organise a 600 BRM on sealand! A few controls would be needed though!
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Bonjour a toutes et à tous
Deci delà des mauvaises infos circulent sur les prés qualifs de 2010, pour le PBP 2011
Je rappelle pour le PBP 2011 nous donnerons la priorité aux randonneurs qui auront fait.
soit 1 : BRM de 200 km
soit 1 : BRM de 300 km
soit 1 : BRM de 400 km
soit 1 : BRM de 600 km
soit 1 : BRM de 1000 km
Nous vous demanderons l'un de ces 5 brevets au choi.
Ces brevet doivent être fait en 2010
La pré inscription pourra se faire d’autant plus tôt que la distance du brevet réalisé aura été longue.
Je vous demande de bien faire passer l'info , dans vos club , sur vos blogs , ainsi que vos amis
Merci :Thierry
Seen on a French forum from an ACP official saying that people who have completed one brevet in 2010 will be given priority and the longer the Brevet, the earlier they will be able to send their pre-entry to secure a place. So people who have done a 1000 get highest priority!
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I'd expected as much. :)
How quickly will the Mille Cymru fill up now given that it's the only BRM 1000 on the calendar for next year? Only 60 spaces available.
Lots of BRM 600s though.
I still don't think all of the UK PBP places will go to people who preregister by doing BRM rides in 2010. Lots yes, all no.
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Yes, though it's the first time I've seen specific mention of distances above 400k. Very cunning that it's mentioned just as last orders are being called for BRM registrations.
Edit: but no need to panic. there'll be room.
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Yes, though it's the first time I've seen specific mention of distances above 400k. Very cunning that it's mentioned just as last orders are being called for BRM registrations.
Edit: but no need to panic. there'll be room.
But to the credit of the French respondent, they do suggest that you tell the cycling world that you know of the arrangement. Perhaps the 'real' purpose is to ensure that established, rather than 'one year wonder' long distance cyclists are given every opportunity to establish a position in the Q.
SteveP
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I guess that there's a difference by now between the rules for French and the rules for foreigners. Especially since in none of the communications to the foreign officials anything above 400km is mentioned.
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Perhaps the 'real' purpose is to ensure that established, rather than 'one year wonder' long distance cyclists are given every opportunity to establish a position in the Q.
I think the '' 'real' '' purpose is to secure ACP's funding. PBP is a great event and all this helps pay for it.
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All information from Paris leads to the line of eradicating the cyclocportif riders from PBP, the riders who only do BRM's in PBP years. The same type of rider you could see riding back to Paris in the first night since they couldn't reach their goal to finish PBP under xx hours. And to give preference to those who keep the system upright in the years between PBP's.
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Can anyone clarify how the ability to pre-register on an indivual basis will work with the process where AUK act as a clearing house for all UK entrants?
Drone
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I don't know about AUK but individual Aussies will pre-register for PBP 2011 on the basis of whether they've done a 400 in 2010, et al. If more Aussies apply than will fit within the Aussie quota, Audax Oz will then select which riders' entries are accepted by the ACP, using a rather complicated method. More details on the
Audax Oz website (http://audax.org.au/public/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=401&Itemid=160)
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Yes, though it's the first time I've seen specific mention of distances above 400k. Very cunning that it's mentioned just as last orders are being called for BRM registrations.
Edit: but no need to panic. there'll be room.
very very annoying. given we've just submitted and route-checked a 400k, on the very clear understanding that a 400 was the best you could do in 2010 for 'pre-qualification'.
This is already the 2nd time ACP have shafted me over PBP. i may operate a personal 3 strikes system with their over-hyped sportive stupide ...
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This is already the 2nd time ACP have shafted me over PBP. i may operate a personal 3 strikes system with their over-hyped sportive stupide ...
But see Ivo's comment:-
I guess that there's a difference by now between the rules for French and the rules for foreigners. Especially since in none of the communications to the foreign officials anything above 400km is mentioned.
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It'll be full of 'one-year and one-400km the year before wonders'.... ;)
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Ah, good point Ian. I was taking the more pessimistic view (hopefully wrongly!) because noone had replied to Drone's drone:
Can anyone clarify how the ability to pre-register on an indivual basis will work with the process where AUK act as a clearing house for all UK entrants?
Drone
... but fingers crossed, Ivo's post is the most relevant here.
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Yes, though it's the first time I've seen specific mention of distances above 400k. Very cunning that it's mentioned just as last orders are being called for BRM registrations.
Edit: but no need to panic. there'll be room.
very very annoying. given we've just submitted and route-checked a 400k, on the very clear understanding that a 400 was the best you could do in 2010 for 'pre-qualification'.
This is already the 2nd time ACP have shafted me over PBP. i may operate a personal 3 strikes system with their over-hyped sportive stupide ...
Chill!
I will ride your 400 matt.
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The Faffers Fourhundred?
Start time: Officially 8am. Reality: 8.45am (once the paperwork is done, tyre changed, tea drunk and luggage repacked twice)
And is the routesheet printed in 72 point text on A6 cards so you have to stop and swap the cards over every couple of instructions?
;)
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The Faffers Fourhundred?
Start time: Officially 8am. Reality: 8.45am (once the paperwork is done, tyre changed, tea drunk and luggage repacked twice)
I think that's a bit rich from someone who started LEL with a tyre they planned to change at Dalkeith. :P
Actually we need a good name - and yours beats any ideas I've had. Might omit the 'The' ...
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Actually we decided that everyone would have to stop at each junction and write down the routesheet instruction. That way it would take them as long as it took us at the weekend. :)
A new and novel approach to info controls :)
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Actually we need a good name - and yours beats any ideas I've had. Might omit the 'The' ...
I trust you'll be including an underwater section just for me?
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sorry to go slightly off topic but I could easily be tempted to buy one of these
(http://ny-image0.etsy.com/il_430xN.93741628.jpg)
from here Paris Brest Classic French Pastry in 12th by ParisMiniatures (http://www.etsy.com/view_listing.php?listing_id=31910671)
The Paris-Brest was created by a baker in 1891in honor of the Paris-Brest-Paris bicycle race, which was a precursor to the Tour de France. The pastry is made of a ring of pâte à choux filled with praline pastry cream and topped with whipped cream, almonds, and powdered sugar - really, a very elaborate version of the cream puff. The ring shape of course is meant to resemble a bicycle wheel - a delicious one, at that!
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<mode=stereotype>
London: Cockneys eating saveloys
Edinburgh: Deep-fried everything
That must mean a London-Edinburgh is a:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Battered_Sausage_I.jpg/775px-Battered_Sausage_I.jpg)
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The Faffers Fourhundred?
Start time: Officially 8am. Reality: 8.45am (once the paperwork is done, tyre changed, tea drunk and luggage repacked twice)
I think that's a bit rich from someone who started LEL with a tyre they planned to change at Dalkeith. :P
Actually we need a good name - and yours beats any ideas I've had. Might omit the 'The' ...
ahem
Paris-Brest-Paris 2007
Temps N° Nom Prénom Pays Sexe Mach. CLUB
....thousands of lines omitted...
HD 4097 CHAMBERS Matthew GB M VE DIDCOT PHEONIX
And I did my best to motivate you as well...as this picture shows....
(http://www.linuxufo.com/thumbs/PBP//640x480_Picture%20009.jpg) (http://www.linuxufo.com/photos/PBP/Picture%20009.jpg)
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sorry to go slightly off topic but I could easily be tempted to buy one of these
(http://ny-image0.etsy.com/il_430xN.93741628.jpg)
from here Paris Brest Classic French Pastry in 12th by ParisMiniatures (http://www.etsy.com/view_listing.php?listing_id=31910671)
As seen on Masterchef?
BBC iPlayer - Masterchef: The Professionals: Series 2: Episode 17 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00n7yqg/Masterchef_The_Professionals_Series_2_Episode_17/) @ 09:17 minutes.
Might to go France to eat one.
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In order top keep the price down, that archetypal Friday treat of Central Lancashire, the Coffee Renoir or Renue, has acquired a hole, I may rename it the Lands End-John O' Groats, as it is available at a number of bakeries on the route.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2503/3994572215_e19fc9b5a9.jpg)
Damon.
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I have asked them if it was valid for the uk and the answer was valid for the entire world!:
Elle est valable dans le monde entier, en particulier pour les pays ayant eu le plus de participants en 2007.
L'information avait déjà été passée il y a plusieurs semaines et à la vue du calendrier 2010 des BRM en Grande-Bretagne que je viens de recevoir, le message est très bien passé
he also go on saying that they have been surprised by the number of BRM organised by AUK!
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It'll be full of 'one-year and one-400km the year before wonders'.... ;)
lol noice one boss! ;)
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Perhaps the 'real' purpose is to ensure that established, rather than 'one year wonder' long distance cyclists are given every opportunity to establish a position in the Q.
SteveP
Not sure this is particularly a good thing. What's wrong with 'one year wonders'? I'd like to see PBP as a way of attracting in more people - I started audaxing in a PBP year and sadly have been hooked ever since.
An alternative view is that this might stimulate a bit more participation from the rest of us outside PBP year?
Liam
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In principle there's nothing wrong with 'one year wonders'. The problem is that PBP has grown too big. So there'll be a maximum number of entries. And the ACP has chosen to favour those who keep the BRM series upright during the non-PBP years. In contrast to the UK many organisers elsewhere hardly have riders during the non-PBP years. So those who keep the events alive get a preference. One year wonders still have a chance to get into PBP, but a smaller one.
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What's wrong with 'one year wonders'?
Nothing if they don't prevent consistent committed Audaxers from riding PBP.
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Does anyone know if the 1001 Miglia Italia 2010 will count? I have entered it and although it doesn't clash with Mille Cymru I don't fancy doing both!
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What's wrong with 'one year wonders'?
Nothing if they don't prevent consistent committed Audaxers from riding PBP.
Shirley that's Chicken and Egg; how can one-year wonders like me (yes the rumours are false) ever get to ride it more than once if all the places for my first attempt are taken by Anciennes?
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Shirley that's Chicken and Egg; how can one-year wonders like me (yes the rumours are false) ever get to ride it more than once if all the places for my first attempt are taken by Anciennes?
"One year wonders" aren't first timers. They're people that don't ride Audaxes in non-PBP years and generally just ride the minimum required to qualify for PBP.
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Shirley that's Chicken and Egg; how can one-year wonders like me (yes the rumours are false) ever get to ride it more than once if all the places for my first attempt are taken by Anciennes?
"One year wonders" aren't first timers. They're people that don't ride Audaxes in non-PBP years and generally just ride the minimum required to qualify for PBP.
Fair enough; in which case people like me who just want to ride it once will have to show their commitment to Long Distance Cycling by (for a start) riding a BRM 400 the year before, eventually it will become a full BRM SR the year before but it will take several years for this to happen.
We had this debate in 2006; AIUI ACP climbed down on their threat to impose a limit in 2007.
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Does anyone know of large numbers of people who had qualified last time but who couldn't get a place because of a quota? I don't know the answer but think it would be interesting to know.
The other factor to keep in mind is that an experienced audaxer is possibly more likely to complete an SR series assuming that they know what's involved in getting through a 400 and a 600...in my subjective opinion.
Completely see Ivo's point - this move could give a boost to events outside PBP year (assuming the message gets out to there) which has to be a good thing. However, I get a little twitchy when people talk disparagingly about potential recruits to the cult. Surely the future of our hobby is to recruit more people and PBP year is a great opportunity for us to welcome people into our community rather than getting all suspicious about outsiders.
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Shirley that's Chicken and Egg; how can one-year wonders like me (yes the rumours are false) ever get to ride it more than once if all the places for my first attempt are taken by Anciennes?
"One year wonders" aren't first timers. They're people that don't ride Audaxes in non-PBP years and generally just ride the minimum required to qualify for PBP.
You're probably right, but SOME are OYWs; in my area at least 2 'Anciens' rode no long Audaxes before or since.
PBP is just another 'box to tick'* for some - like L'Etape, Paris-Roubaix, Alpe D'huez, Fred Whitton ... etc ... The box only needs to be ticked once.
*I really hate this philosphy, but that's for another day ...
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Does anyone know of large numbers of people who had qualified last time but who couldn't get a place because of a quota? I don't know the answer but think it would be interesting to know.
AFAIK no one was bumped out last time. But last time the local governments set a max of 5000 riders. ACP didn't comply tot hat and had a bit more riders at the start. Expecting the local governments to stick to the same max in 2011, there's no room for growth. And the statistics of the last editions show a clear growth. So something should be done now. It's better to communicate the general outline of a quota and the lines along which the decision who's in and who's out are taken as doing that at the last moment.
Sorry to put it that blunt, but some people are quite selfish in the debate (here and elsewhere). Just letting everyone, including the one-year-wonders in could greatly endanger PBP. Especially if the authorities set a clear maximum number. And the one-year-wonders don't usually anything to keep the BRM system alive in the years between PBP's. Especially the French cyclo riders turning randonneur for one year in their life. They create havoc on the streets because of their riding style and drop out at immense rates if they can't reach their previously planned time.
So get on your bikes and start riding BRM's next year.
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Is the problem too many entrants or too many DNFs? We can all sympathise with those who didn't finish PBP 2007, especially those who witnessed the distress of riders caught out in some of the torrential rain, but to those in the controls downstream, all they see is piles of unsold food and drink.
The FFCT seems to do the bulk of the work on the ground and it is noticeable that the age profile of the helpers is mainly 50 to 70. They seem to admire persistence above all else, except perhaps politeness. They see large numbers of DNFs and they are dismayed. What else, other than more qualifiers, can they do to ensure completion and deter speculative entries. The system of pre-payment for food as at LEL might be one option, it provides better value if you take the full time and provides an incentive not to pack, as you've paid for the whole ride up front, so you might as well make the most of it. Another option might be a cheque taken as a bond or deposit, to be returned on completion of the ride or cashed if you don't finish without a good reason. A system is required to limit numbers, incentivise completion and minimise the chance of deficits on catering.
Damon.
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Stop wingeing!
There are so many events in the UK that we all have a massive advantage over the others. People in France will have to trael several hundreds kms to find a suitable event. I will do a 1000 or at least a 600, but I am pretty sure that a 300 or a 400 will secure a place as there won't be that many people to be turned away (5000 is still a lot of people!)
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Stop wingeing!
There are so many events in the UK that we all have a massive advantage over the others. People in France will have to trael several hundreds kms to find a suitable event. I will do a 1000 or at least a 600, but I am pretty sure that a 300 or a 400 will secure a place as there won't be that many people to be turned away (5000 is still a lot of people!)
I'd be amazed if a SR in 2011 doesn't secure a place.
I'd be saddened if people sampling audaxing in 2011 were put off the sport forever after by the attitude of regulars.
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I'd be saddened if people sampling audaxing in 2011 were put off the sport forever after by the attitude of regulars.
Please define this 'attitude'. Do you mean wanting to reduce the number of riders who ahve to sleep outside in the rain?
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A system is required to limit numbers, incentivise completion ...
If a way were actually found to reduce the DNF rate for any event - would that event still be as challenging?
There are so many events in the UK that we all have a massive advantage over the others.
There are so many that they are mostly going to be massively under-subscribed. Calendar 400s with only a handful of starters, is the way it is going, unfortunately.
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A system is required to limit numbers, incentivise completion ...
If a way were actually found to reduce the DNF rate for any event - would that event still be as challenging?
If 20% of one nation's entrants drop out, that means that those folk were more challenged by the ride than another country with a 5% DNF rate. Do we then favour the higher drop out rate country because their riders were more 'challenged' or favour those who met the challenge. The problem with PBP is that the challenge is unknown, it might be wet and windy or it might be hot. Different conditions favour different nations.
The real challenge is mounting the event, 1,500 volunteers take a lot of organising, maximising finishing rates is an obvious target for evaluating success.
Damon.
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The real challenge is mounting the event, 1,500 volunteers take a lot of organising,
The real muscle is pretty much outsourced to the control towns though. They're proud to be involved and for them, its just another animation.
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I'd be saddened if people sampling audaxing in 2011 were put off the sport forever after by the attitude of regulars.
Please define this 'attitude'. Do you mean wanting to reduce the number of riders who ahve to sleep outside in the rain?
I mean the 'one year wonder' issue - if people want to give it a go once that's fine for me. And if ACP have to limit numbers that's fine as well. What I'm uncomfortable with is any implication that PBP is the birthright of 'regulars' or people who ride lots of long audaxes.
It would be great if we could see higher support for events organised outside PBP year and hats off to ACP if the 2010 move gets people out early. However, postings here and elsewhere (see strand on Sportives) suggest that there is an occasional tendency within our sect to be a bit suspicious of people who have not been fully confirmed at the altar of perpetual misery and annointed with the fluffy flapjack of Carradice. If we can stop talking like a puritanical cult we might get a few more long-term converts.
I have a dream that one day we might even see people who have bought bikes in Halfords....
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I have a dream that one day we might even see people who have bought bikes in Halfords....
I rode all but my last 4 audaxes this year on my bike from Halfords :thumbsup:
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I mean the 'one year wonder' issue - if people want to give it a go once that's fine for me. And if ACP have to limit numbers that's fine as well. What I'm uncomfortable with is any implication that PBP is the birthright of 'regulars' or people who ride lots of long audaxes.
IMHO riding an SR series followed by PBP is a very odd way to 'give Audaxing a go'.
If we can stop talking like a puritanical cult we might get a few more long-term converts.
Well I don't think we do - but I'm happy to agree to disagree!
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I mean the 'one year wonder' issue - if people want to give it a go once that's fine for me. And if ACP have to limit numbers that's fine as well. What I'm uncomfortable with is any implication that PBP is the birthright of 'regulars' or people who ride lots of long audaxes.
It's not as if it's some secret handshake that gets you in, the things you have to do in order to register early have been made public and, most importantly, are all in the future. It's not as if they're planning to offer PBP places in decreasing order of AUK membership duration. Everyone has an equal chance of qualifying and getting a place.
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I mean the 'one year wonder' issue - if people want to give it a go once that's fine for me. And if ACP have to limit numbers that's fine as well. What I'm uncomfortable with is any implication that PBP is the birthright of 'regulars' or people who ride lots of long audaxes.
Everyone has an equal chance of qualifying and getting a place.
Which is exactly what I think should happen - and it's not the end of civilisation if lots of people who didn't do a 600 in 2009 get to start in Paris in 2010.
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There are so many that they are mostly going to be massively under-subscribed. Calendar 400s with only a handful of starters, is the way it is going, unfortunately.
The Brevet Cymru and Seven Across are on different albeit consecutive weekends next year. Time to answer the "which is harder" question once and for all. I suspect the Brevet Cymru will shade it, if only because its the weekend after the 7Across!
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I don't see what the problem with people who only take an interest in PBP (or LEL) years. Some people have lives, you know.
As for the "tick box" thing, that's fine too. When I was on PBP, one thing that kept me going was knowing that if I completed it this time I wouldn't have unfinished business and need to have another go.
There are a few people in Cambridge CC who are largely only PBP/LEL year riders; compare these two pages:
2008: - (http://www.aukweb.net/results/2008/clubs2.php?Club=Cambridge+CC)
2009: - (http://www.aukweb.net/results/this/clubs2.php?Club=Cambridge+CC)
This year's top-placed rider, Nick, spends his time on things like time trials most of the time. There's only so much one person can do. I believe he completed LEL in around 75 hours. Why is he less worthy of a place?
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This year's top-placed rider, Nick, spends his time on things like time trials most of the time. There's only so much one person can do. I believe he completed LEL in around 75 hours. Why is he less worthy of a place?
(Why is his finishing time relevant?)
A good question; I don't know if he's less worthy, but I have this instinctive, unjustifiable response that he might be!
Perhaps we're looking at this the wrong way round? Instead of giving PBP priority to old hands, and implying some sort of perceived emnity to sportive riders, we could give entry fee loylaty discounts to return riders on BRMs? (Imperfect, but a first shot at this ...) So not actually turning anyone away, and keeps it all out in the open.
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This year's top-placed rider, Nick, spends his time on things like time trials most of the time. There's only so much one person can do. I believe he completed LEL in around 75 hours. Why is he less worthy of a place?
(Why is his finishing time relevant?)
A good question; I don't know if he's less worthy, but I have this instinctive, unjustifiable response that he might be!
Perhaps we're looking at this the wrong way round? Instead of giving PBP priority to old hands, and implying some sort of perceived emnity to sportive riders, we could give entry fee loylaty discounts to return riders on BRMs? (Imperfect, but a first shot at this ...) So not actually turning anyone away, and keeps it all out in the open.
I think his finishing time is relevant because the motivation from ACP is also to exclude riders who are more likely to DNF. As I said, some riders are simply doing other things and have to prioritise; this doesn't necessarily demonstrate lack of ability. Nick completed '07 20h or so faster than me and AFAIK he just did the minimum to qualify.
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Perhaps we're looking at this the wrong way round? Instead of giving PBP priority to old hands, and implying some sort of perceived emnity to sportive riders, we could give entry fee loylaty discounts to return riders on BRMs? (Imperfect, but a first shot at this ...) So not actually turning anyone away, and keeps it all out in the open.
I like the way your thinking is going. If you perceive the debate in terms of a disincentive then all you are going to do is p*** people off. Mobile phone companies seem to be the only organisations that seem to be able to do that to their customers and get away with it.
On the other hand, if you start thinking about giving people an incentive to come back you have a whole new ball game.
The question then comes down to finding a suitable incentive to make people ride in 2012... maybe a PBP reunion 200 on a weekend when it can be connected with something else exciting like a Tour of Britain stage. Nothing too strenuous but with lots of opportunities to see all the people you met in 2011 doing your SR....
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They had to find a way to limit the entries to 5000 to satisfy the French authorities and they came up with a system that does not sound too bad to me! I prefer this than say a lottery. It is not much different from LEL, you must show early commitment by riding one event rather than sending a cheque! It is true that a few newcomers may loose the opportunity to ride PBP but you can't please everyone and there are plenty of events to get started in audax!
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They had to find a way to limit the entries to 5000 to satisfy the French authorities and they came up with a system that does not sound too bad to me! I prefer this than say a lottery. It is not much different from LEL, you must show early commitment by riding one event rather than sending a cheque! It is true that a few newcomers may loose the opportunity to ride PBP but you can't please everyone and there are plenty of events to get started in audax!
Indeed, I might have lost out in 2007 under such a system as I didn't do a 400 in 2006, which was my first season. I did 4x200k and 1x300k in 2006 which would've meant I wasn't quite at the bottom of the ladder in the proposed system, though.
IIRC I had only started thinking about PBP as a possibility around the time I did the 300k, which was August 06, so finding and riding a 400k at that stage may have been tricky.
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Indeed, I might have lost out in 2007 under such a system as I didn't do a 400 in 2006, which was my first season. I did 4x200k and 1x300k in 2006 which would've meant I wasn't quite at the bottom of the ladder in the proposed system, though.
IIRC I had only started thinking about PBP as a possibility around the time I did the 300k, which was August 06, so finding and riding a 400k at that stage may have been tricky.
I won't chance it but I won't be surprised if a 200 is enough. If 6000 people try to participate they will have to get rid of about 15-20% of entries and I don't think that 80% of PBP starters are hardened audaxers (bearing in mind that audax UK is an exception as most national equivalent struggle to generate so much activity).
It will effectively be to the advantage of well organised countries like the UK.
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An advantage perhaps but remember that the BRMs generate income for ACP so with more BRMs from the UK it seems only right that we are allocated more places since we've contributed more to the event.
I don't have any issue with what it seems ACP are doing regarding 2011 PBP, I'll just do what they ask, it's just riding a bike after all, I can do that.
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So is all this just the best guess of the ACPs intentions? There seems to be a lot of "reading between the lines".
Personally, I'll be surprised if their decision is any more sophisticated than:
Is he French?
If yes, put him through
Otherwise, put him in the hat along with the rest.
There may be different hats for different countries. The size of the hats may vary by country, taking into account the number of registered riders in their annals. But America will get a stetson and the UK a top hat. As is fitting. That's my expectation.
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And for the Dutch, a cap?
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So is all this just the best guess of the ACPs intentions? There seems to be a lot of "reading between the lines".
Personally, I'll be surprised if their decision is any more sophisticated than:
Is he French?
If yes, put him through
Otherwise, put him in the hat along with the rest.
There may be different hats for different countries. The size of the hats may vary by country, taking into account the number of registered riders in their annals. But America will get a stetson and the UK a top hat. As is fitting. That's my expectation.
In 2007 a number of French riders moved into the 84 hour group to make way for the foreigners, I bet they were a bit miffed if that caused a DNF, especially if the riders they made way for DNF'd.
Damon.
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People in France will have to trael several hundreds kms to find a suitable event.
Ain't that the truth! My club mate has planned, and had approved, a qualifying 400 purely to enable 'locals' to ride a PBP qualifier without having to travel halfway across the country!
I fail to see what is wrong is 'doing the minimum' to qualify. If ACP is happy with the qualifying requirements then so am I.
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PBP is just another 'box to tick'* for some - like L'Etape, Paris-Roubaix, Alpe D'huez, Fred Whitton ... etc ... The box only needs to be ticked once.
I don't have a problem with this either; there are many many boxes I need to tick which is why I'm moving away from big 600km+ events but not Audax. I might well tick some more than once if I wasn't such an old git with even older knees.
Long Distance Cycling should be an all inclusive club; no reason why people cannot dip in and out as their circumstances change, if the World and his Wife want to do whatever ride then if it's in the interest of the organiser to cater for the extra numbers why not? if like PBP it's saturated there needs to be another way...
If the 300 or so UK riders who rode in 2007 are just allowed to enter again and again to the exclusion of others, then when they all hang up their cycling shoes who will fill the places?
AIUI ACP doesn't actually acknowledge the existence of AUK and its many and varied events much outside of PBP years.
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And for the Dutch, a cap?
LOL
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If the 300 or so UK riders who rode in 2007 are just allowed to enter again and again to the exclusion of others, then when they all hang up their cycling shoes who will fill the places?
What about the other extreme of, for example (and I accept that this is a contrived example), a UK charity decides to use PBP as its fundraising cycling event and finds 300+ people to do it. All of them join AUK for 2010 and 2011 and do the bare minimum to qualify (i.e. just a 600 in 2010 in order to get near the front of the pre-register queue and then an SR in 2011) and then manage to all register early enough to take all the UK places for PBP. Once PBP is finished they have no intention to carry on with long distance cycling, or they'll move on to some other event like the Three Peaks Cyclo-Cross, Fred Whitton, etc. Any pre-existing AUK member doesn't even get a look in on PBP itself. Very unlikely, but it is still a possibility.
Or, imagine LEL 2013 filling up within a day of entries being accepted for exactly the same reason.
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Well, since we're wandering into the realms of contrived examples.... ;)
All UK places are taken by all those who have ridden audax since the day they were able to ride (and before that, they'd walked them), and all AUK members agreed these qualifiers were jolly good and well deserving fellows etc etc etc. By some bizarre coincidence, all said good fellows are struck down by a strange illness they contracted on the 'Jolly Good Fellow 600' (non qualifier of course) and cannot take part in PBP..... well, fill the rest in yourselves, I'm sure you get the gist.
The entry requirements are as they are. You know what you have to do, there's no mystery or secret. You have no greater 'right' to ride than anyone else that meets the same requirement - that's what entry requirements are all about. Good fellows, chill out. You'll have no difficulties riding the qualifiers so, if the entry requirements are pitched right, you'll get your place. :)
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If the 300 or so UK riders who rode in 2007 are just allowed to enter again and again to the exclusion of others, then when they all hang up their cycling shoes who will fill the places?
What about the other extreme of, for example (and I accept that this is a contrived example), a UK charity decides to use PBP as its fundraising cycling event and finds 300+ people to do it. All of them join AUK for 2010 and 2011 and do the bare minimum to qualify (i.e. just a 600 in 2010 in order to get near the front of the pre-register queue and then an SR in 2011) and then manage to all register early enough to take all the UK places for PBP. Once PBP is finished they have no intention to carry on with long distance cycling, or they'll move on to some other event like the Three Peaks Cyclo-Cross, Fred Whitton, etc. Any pre-existing AUK member doesn't even get a look in on PBP itself. Very unlikely, but it is still a possibility.
Or, imagine LEL 2013 filling up within a day of entries being accepted for exactly the same reason.
Have you got an address for these groups? They'll be wanting someone to do a DVD I feel sure.
Damon.
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What about the other extreme of, for example (and I accept that this is a contrived example), a UK charity decides to use PBP as its fundraising cycling event and finds 300+ people to do it. All of them join AUK for 2010 and 2011 and do the bare minimum to qualify (i.e. just a 600 in 2010 in order to get near the front of the pre-register queue and then an SR in 2011) and then manage to all register early enough to take all the UK places for PBP.
this type of thing was also discussed here last time; I think one wet 600 like the Bryan Chapman or Hailsham might see the numbers dwindle a tad; they would still need the PBP year BRM SR,
I doubt you would find a charity willing to take it on anyway; they probably would not believe anybody could do it either but that's for another thread.
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In 2007 a number of French riders moved into the 84 hour group to make way for the foreigners, I bet they were a bit miffed if that caused a DNF, especially if the riders they made way for DNF'd.
Damon.
Our hosts were always hospitable in 2007, and I'm grateful to any riders who put themselves out in this way - but I don't see how it helped!
Surely the biggest log-jams were when the 84h riders were catching the 90h-ers?
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Do we have stats on how many (%) people join AUK in a PBP year but do not renew. I'll wager it is no more than 20. In Michael Winner's words "calm down dears".
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Do we have stats on how many (%) people join AUK in a PBP year but do not renew. I'll wager it is no more than 20. In Michael Winner's words "calm down dears".
points tables from the AUK site set to look for "all points"
2002 1088 riders listed
2003 1038 riders listed
2004 1041 riders listed
2005 1157 riders listed
2006 1150 riders listed
2007 1362 riders listed
2008 1054 riders listed
2009 1054 riders listed (not complete yet but I doubt many riders are going to start collecting before 31.10.09)
doncha just love our website? :thumbsup:
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Do you have a point Martin?!? :)
That seems to show that in PBP years either;
- less riders earn points, or
- more riders earn points
Based on 2 PBP years!
And they're the wrong numbers to asnwer FY's question anyway ...
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Do we have stats on how many (%) people join AUK in a PBP year but do not renew.
The short answer is 'no', but the turnover in any year is surprisingly (or maybe not) high, with maybe 600 members not renewing. The surprising thing is there's always another 600 mugs to take their place.
Now that there is (very new this year) online membership payments for new and and renewals, I would expect to see habits change a bit in future.
A more interesting list is perhaps the 'Membership Activity' page
http://www.aukweb.net/results/gsr.php (http://www.aukweb.net/results/gsr.php)
which shows the very clear peaks in PBP years usually followed by below-average activity the year following a PBP.
The SR figures peak mightily in PBP years so quite a few of those look like '1-year wonders'.
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Or membership numbers:-
Audax United Kingdom (http://www.aukweb.net/results/gmem.php) which showed that the number of members fell by 230 between 2007 (PBP year) and 2008.
That's 5%.
Post PBP-2003 the number of members in 2004 was greater.
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Do you have a point Martin?!? :)
That seems to show that in PBP years either;
- less riders earn points, or
- more riders earn points
Based on 2 PBP years!
And they're the wrong numbers to asnwer FY's question anyway ...
it's the best indication I could roughly get on how many riders do long distance events in each year, it's purely number of riders with 2 or more points. Breaking it down to 15 or more would probably show how many went for an SR and PBP.
apart from 2007 there's not much fluctuation. The 2007 blip could just be that there were more events for people to try, and of those 350 (including just 4 non-members) only got 2 points
Post PBP-2003 the number of members in 2004 was larger.
Yes and I was one of them
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The SR figures peak mightily in PBP years so quite a few of those look like '1-year wonders'.
Although as a % of the total AUK membership, the % of SRs in PBP years has fallen, with 2007 being the lowest % since AUK was established. And fewer SRs in 2007 than in 2003 and 1999.
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I'm confused by all this.
I may not be alone.
Could some knowledgeable person out there just briefly outline what they would advise a potential 2011 PBP'er to do, rides wise, during 2010? Also when should application actually be made and is this done by individuals or is there some kind of AUK block entry.?
Any guidance appreciated.
Thanks
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Although as a % of the total AUK membership, the % of SRs in PBP years has fallen, with 2007 being the lowest % since AUK was established.
No great surprise. AUK has evolved from a basic machine to allow the very few members to get an SR to qualify for early PBPs, to a general long distance cycling association with a sideline in PBP qualification.
And fewer SRs in 2007 than in 2003 and 1999.
Only slightly. I'd guess that we've probably found the majority of people that actually want to do an SR, any increase in membership isn't likely to bring a proportional increase in the number of SRs. The newer members are more likely to be content with the shorter, but still "long", distances. There doesn't seem to be many people that want to do an SR every year, somewhere around 200.
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I'm confused by all this.
I may not be alone.
Could some knowledgeable person out there just briefly outline what they would advise a potential 2011 PBP'er to do, rides wise, during 2010? Also when should application actually be made and is this done by individuals or is there some kind of AUK block entry.?
Any guidance appreciated.
to get the highest priority entry to PBP 2011 you need to do a BRM 400 (I think all AUK ones will be) in 2010, if you just do a 300 or 200 the date at which you can apply will be later. That's it, nothing else will give you any advantage. You will still have to qualify with a BRM SR in 2011 (and again all events within the timescale will be) irrespective of what you do in 2010.
In 2007 Peter Marshall did a block AUK entry and guided us all seemlessly through the process and hopefully will again in 2011.
You may want to do an SR on 2010 but it's not a requirement; just a good psuchological boost
hope this helps
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I'm confused by all this.
I may not be alone.
Could some knowledgeable person out there just briefly outline what they would advise a potential 2011 PBP'er to do, rides wise, during 2010?
A safe bet is doing a full SR series in 2010 and 2011. This is not only for (pre-qualifying) but also to get yourself prepared. In several countries it's advised by the old hands to do a 1000 in the year before PBP. In this way you have a real long ride to learn it and to make your mistakes before the real thing starts.
Frankly speaking, if you want to be well prepared for the PBP year you should be capable of riding a 400 in the year before. OK, I know there are a few exceptions who make it while doing their first 200 in the PBP year. But it's allways better to be well prepared.
Further, I allways advise to do at least one of your rides in 2010 or 2011 in France. Just to get to know the place. This gives you valuable knowledge making your PBP easier. And talk a lot to the old hands during your events. They will give you a lot of info.
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Thank you for the prompt reply Martin. That's very clear. This 1000km 'leak' is just conjecture then?
Later edit. And thanks Ivo. I do an SR every year. Its just the procedures where i needed help.
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Thank you for the prompt reply Martin. That's very clear. This 1000km 'leak' is just conjecture then?
there's nothing on the ACP site about it; they will have to announce their intentions next year anyway so I think do a BRM SR and watch this space is the best advice.
in 2006 all the rumours were about an SR the year before PBP as an entry requirement but it never happened either.
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I do love the way this site meanders off topic... a bit like a conversation in the night on an audax...
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Thank you for the prompt reply Martin. That's very clear. This 1000km 'leak' is just conjecture then?
there's nothing on the ACP site about it; they will have to announce their intentions next year anyway so I think do a BRM SR and watch this space is the best advice.
in 2006 all the rumours were about an SR the year before PBP as an entry requirement but it never happened either.
I think that it is a bit more than a leak, since one of the ACP official told me on a forum open to everybody that it was fine for me to let UK riders know this. Calendrier des BRM - Page 2 (http://parisbrestparis2007.actifforum.com/calendrier-des-brm-f45/calendrier-des-brm-t1414-15.htm)
I have the feeling that something got lost in translation at some stage as nobody was talking of this 400km rule in the French speaking world.
I am fully translating their post below:
Hello all,
There is wrong information circulating around about 2010 pre-qualifications for PBP 2011
I remind you that for PBP 2011, we will give priority to randonneurs who will have completed:
either
1 200 km BRM
or one 300 km BRM
or one 400 km BRM
or one 600 km BRM
or one 1000 km BRM
We will ask you one of this brevets to your choice. These have to be completed in 2010. The longer the Brevet the earlier you will be able to pre-register.
I am asking you to pass around this information, in your clubs, on your blogs and to your friends.
Thank you
Thierry
Then I will let you decide for yourself who you should trust!
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bloody hell thanks;
so anybody who doesn't fancy Mille Cymru best go overseas next year..
http://ffct.cvf.fr/dynamic/ffct/OIN00F_LIG_06.pdf
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OK, I'll bite:
PBP 2011, rulechanges (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=17236.msg309343#msg309343)
The post Ivo quotes is very much in French (although I have to trust the translation services of others - I can read the numbers :P).
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Is Peter Marshall going to put something in the next edition of Arrivee? I believe he is AUK's ACP correspondant and so is no doubt best placed to shine some light on the current confusion, as I'd imagine ACP will notify national organisations through the usual channels (not through a posting on a website, that would be very unFrench)?
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OK, I'll bite:
PBP 2011, rulechanges (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=17236.msg309343#msg309343)
The post Ivo quotes is very much in French (although I have to trust the translation services of others - I can read the numbers :P).
I don't think that the 2 posts are contradictory! The 400km distance and the dates are only given as an example in the post you refer to.
For those who want to go overseas, there is an unofficial French calendar there:
Le Cyclotourisme Virtuel (http://jeanpba.homeip.net/?page=90&onglet=1&annee=2010)
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An awful lot of posts have gone under the bridge based on the "400km assumption", as it shall henceforth be known.
[To be added to the lexicon right after
The French Ride
... ]
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In 2007 Peter Marshall did a block AUK entry and guided us all seemlessly through the process and hopefully will again in 2011.
The process was new to everyone in 2007 - Peter, AUK and ACP alike - because it was the 1st time ACP had implemented their online registration (which did seem to work very well).
So it may be refined or altered next time, I don't think anyone really knows yet.
BTW the 'block entry' is ACP's stipulation as well - ie it is they who request that any UK entrant do so using AUK's block entry, this has been the case for the last 4 or 5 editions. This effectively requires entrants to become members of AUK. I believe a small handful do manage to circumvent this each time, but not many.
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Then I will let you decide for yourself who you should trust!
The only information that has been sent to Audax Australia by the ACP is the "up to 400 km brevet in 2010" prioritised entry. Any qualification requirement for Aussies beyond that is specifically up to Audax Australia. Until Audax Oz hears something else from the ACP officially, that is Australia's approach to PBP entries.
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Then I will let you decide for yourself who you should trust!
The only information that has been sent to Audax Australia by the ACP is the "up to 400 km brevet in 2010" prioritised entry. Any qualification requirement for Aussies beyond that is specifically up to Audax Australia. Until Audax Oz hears something else from the ACP officially, that is Australia's approach to PBP entries.
presumably the AUK Oz 2010 season must be coming up to it's summer now anyway so a bit late to start organising new 600s and 1000s?
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The 2010 calendar has been set and printed and the list of BRM events has been sent to the ACP. There will be no additional 200+ km brevets.
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another question ..related to this PBP 2011 registration ...If a calendar event states the category as BRM (e.g. the Dean 300) .....does riding this as a Perm change that category?
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another question ..related to this PBP 2011 registration ...If a calendar event states the category as BRM (e.g. the Dean 300) .....does riding this as a Perm change that category?
Perms can't be BRM, they can't be used for PBP qualification.
Only Calendar Events can be BRM (including some darts/arrows that appear on the calendar).
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thanks Greenbank
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Only Calendar Events can be BRM (including some darts/arrows that appear on the calendar).
There is some doubt as to whether a BRM arrow can be used as PBP qualifying brevet.
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The Easter Arrow is I think not in the right time window for a 400km PBP qualifier. Summer Arrow is not BRM
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The Easter Arrow might be in the right window for a 300 km PBP qualifier but I believe that Arrows still aren't counted.
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I suppose that's not surprising, given that the riders choose the controls!
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sorry to be thick but does this mean that if you do mille cymru you've qualified for pbp automatically, or is it just that it "strengthens your case" but you have to do a bunch of other audaxes as well?
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You'll still have to do a qualifying series in 2011.
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You'll still have to do a qualifying series in 2011.
Apart from that, you have a very strong case.
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There is a great plus for me in pre-registration in that by February I'll know that subject to qualification I've got a ride.
April 3rd is earliest possible registration date I believe. Then April 15th. I like the pre-registration too, it'll mean I don't have to fret about doing the first UK 600 in 2011 to ensure I can actually get the earliest entry in.
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The concept of pre-qualification is interesting.
...
However I'm not sure what it gives ACP and am less comfortable with the concept of reserve lists.
It gives them MUNNY.
If it encourages more BRM events, and more riders of BRM events, that is more tax income for ACP. Which of course they put to good use.
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it'll mean I don't have to fret about doing the first UK 600 in 2011 to ensure I can actually get the earliest entry in.
that was a bit of a false alarm in 2007; we all thought we stood the best chance having ridden the first 600 (the BCM) but in the end all the AUK entries went in together.
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The concept of pre-qualification is interesting.
...
However I'm not sure what it gives ACP and am less comfortable with the concept of reserve lists.
It gives them MUNNY.
If it encourages more BRM events, and more riders of BRM events, that is more tax income for ACP. Which of course they put to good use.
That's my view on it and I wrote it down somewhere last night but it seems to have got lost in the ether. I think it also intends to get better prepared riders in the event and reduce the DNFs. Can't really see how it will restrict the numbers.
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The concept of pre-qualification is interesting.
...
However I'm not sure what it gives ACP and am less comfortable with the concept of reserve lists.
It gives them MUNNY.
If it encourages more BRM events, and more riders of BRM events, that is more tax income for ACP. Which of course they put to good use.
That's my view on it and I wrote it down somewhere last night but it seems to have got lost in the ether. I think it also intends to get better prepared riders in the event and reduce the DNFs. Can't really see how it will restrict the numbers.
It didn't disappear; it was on the 'PBP Website Live' thread.
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A question if I may please: I've done many Audax rides but have never seen the "brevet certification numbers" referred to in the PBP brochure - where does one get these from?
thanks
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A question if I may please: I've done many Audax rides but have never seen the "brevet certification numbers" referred to in the PBP brochure - where does one get these from?
thanks
They are on the sticker on the back of the returned brevet cards. Cards from BRM events have a number allocated by ACP and the same numbers were available for look up on the PBP 2007 on line entry page so one didn't need the actual cards.
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A question if I may please: I've done many Audax rides but have never seen the "brevet certification numbers" referred to in the PBP brochure - where does one get these from?
thanks
You may well not have done a BRM event since 2007. We don't usually run many outside PBP years. BRM event brevet cards will have two stickers, AUK's and a French one.
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Lovely, thanks. I think you are right, I have not done a BRM event (until '10 Willy Warmer which isn't back yet) .
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A question if I may please: I've done many Audax rides but have never seen the "brevet certification numbers" referred to in the PBP brochure - where does one get these from?
thanks
You may well not have done a BRM event since 2007. We don't usually run many outside PBP years. BRM event brevet cards will have two stickers, AUK's and a French one.
If the current prequalification system continues, do you foresee AUK (or organisers, to be pedantic) running BR events for two years out of four and BRM events for the other two? That could seem a little strange.
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If the current prequalification system continues, do you foresee AUK (or organisers, to be pedantic) running BR events for two years out of four and BRM events for the other two? That could seem a little strange.
There used to be a core of events that were always BRM. Those have diminished in number in recent years, partly because AUK has developed awards that parallel ACP's. ACP's new national quota system takes account of the number of BRMs over the last three years, so things might change.
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Given that (as far as I'm aware) no-one qualifying for previous PBPs through AUK has ever lost out on a place, and ACP's magic formula for assigning places, what would be the effect on number of places in future PBPs if AUK decided to make every 200km and over ride BRM in future years?
In other words, is there a chance we could lose out on places in future PBPs if we fail to fill our quota of places in 2011 given that we should get a much bigger quota by making lots of events BRM in 2010?
Beer + ACP's formula == Desire for more beer and no result
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Beer + ACP's formula == Desire for more beer and no result
As ACP is French, next time try wine instead of beer. ;)
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Given that (as far as I'm aware) no-one qualifying for previous PBPs through AUK has ever lost out on a place
Note: nobody qualifying for previous PBPs through any other organisation has ever lost out on a place either.
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I find it entirely strange that the validation cost of a BR event is 20p and a BRM is £1.
If anything it should be the other way round.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... it's a tax, and an extortionate one at that.
A question not asked is why AUK felt so obliged to comply with ACP demands? What alternate responses were considered? What about the majority of riders who have no intention of riding PBP? Is this just about PBP? What else does ACP do for AUK?
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it's difficult to work out how many BR's there were in 2008 from AUK's stats but if each gets the £1 ACP bung that's a lorra wonga (526 events in 2009; say 1/3 to 1/2 are BR(M); each with an average of ~ 20 participants)
I presume this hasn't happened before and the only extra BRM's have been the quallies in PBP years.
I'm not disagreeing with the idea to make all BRs BRM btw; if that's what it takes to get all the places AUK needs so be it.
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I find it entirely strange that the validation cost of a BR event is 20p and a BRM is £1.
If anything it should be the other way round.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... it's a tax, and an extortionate one at that.
A question not asked is why AUK felt so obliged to comply with ACP demands? What alternate responses were considered? What about the majority of riders who have no intention of riding PBP? Is this just about PBP? What else does ACP do for AUK?
it does seem right to me that countries who have contributed most to ACPs coffers should have more places. AUK is representing it's members and IMO is right to maximise our chances of getting places for PBP. I would be very very unhappy if it came to a lottery in 2011 because we didn't do all we could to get as many places as we could. I'd feel let down by AUK. For riders who have no intention of riding PBP, perhaps you'd like to see "I don't want BRM homologation" option. IMO that would be too much admin for Orgs for sake of saving someone else £1.
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For riders who have no intention of riding PBP, perhaps you'd like to see "I don't want BRM homologation" option. IMO that would be too much admin for Orgs for sake of saving someone else £1.
Sounds like a good idea actually. Would it really be any more complicated than running any other 2 events side by side?
eg BR 200km and BRM 200km (using same route even)
vs. BR 200km and BP 150km (with different routes, different time windows etc.)
We could even colour code the brevet cards, but that would be complicated.
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didn't the BCM run simultaneously as a BR and BRM with different time limits? (and not in PBP year)
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I'm not charging any extra for my events because I always register them as BRM.
A question not asked is why AUK felt so obliged to comply with ACP demands?
AUK was founded expressly for the purpose of providing qualifiers for PBP. It's grown out from that, but that is essentially its reason for existence.
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Ian, would you consider charging less, allowing more time, for people to enter your events as BR s ? That's the question here.
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For riders who have no intention of riding PBP, perhaps you'd like to see "I don't want BRM homologation" option. IMO that would be too much admin for Orgs for sake of saving someone else £1.
Sounds like a good idea actually. Would it really be any more complicated than running any other 2 events side by side?
eg BR 200km and BRM 200km (using same route even)
vs. BR 200km and BP 150km (with different routes, different time windows etc.)
We could even colour code the brevet cards, but that would be complicated.
I don't think it would be. Good idea. Replace BPs with BRs. Get rid of <200km events. That'll go down well.
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Ian, would you consider charging less, allowing more time, for people to enter your events as BR s ? That's the question here.
Its a bit bigger then that.
The question is, is AUK obliged to optimise its operations so as to maximise access to PBP because such is codified in a mission statement, memorandum of association, whatever. If so, then the AUK response is perfectly reasonable.
Regardless, the supplementary question is whether such a formal / informal policy is still appropriate.
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Taking this thread away from it's purpose maybe, but i still cannot (even though i've seen it with my own eyes over many years) believe how stingy most cyclists are. We're talking about £1 FFS. How many people moaning about having to pay BRM supplements turn up on £1000+ bikes?
I cannot believe the effort and expense most organisers go to when arranging events and then get harangued 'cos their event has gone up from £5 to £6 in pre-PBP year!
If you don't like audaxing go enter a Sportive....
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Ian, would you consider charging less, allowing more time, for people to enter your events as BR s ? That's the question here.
Riders who are outside BRM, but within BR time do get validated if they ask. My events are financially pretty marginal so I'm not going to faff around offering refunds, and I don't want to make life more complicated with extended times and dual status. There are lots of BR alternatives.
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For riders who have no intention of riding PBP, perhaps you'd like to see "I don't want BRM homologation" option. IMO that would be too much admin for Orgs for sake of saving someone else £1.
Sounds like a good idea actually. Would it really be any more complicated than running any other 2 events side by side?
eg BR 200km and BRM 200km (using same route even)
vs. BR 200km and BP 150km (with different routes, different time windows etc.)
We could even colour code the brevet cards, but that would be complicated.
I don't think it would be. Good idea. Replace BPs with BRs. Get rid of <200km events. That'll go down well.
What makes you think I'm suggesting either of these options? ???
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Well, you compared the efforts across "BR 200km and BRM 200km" and "BR 200km and BP 150km" implying that it wouldn't be much different and hence a good thing. To keep the effort level similar they'd have to replace the BP150 with the BR200. Adding a third event the BR200 would IMO be more effort but that's not what you asked.
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How does one qualify for a VIP card, do you have to organise a full SR series?
Damon.
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Ian, would you consider charging less, allowing more time, for people to enter your events as BR s ? That's the question here.
Riders who are outside BRM, but within BR time do get validated if they ask. My events are financially pretty marginal so I'm not going to faff around offering refunds, and I don't want to make life more complicated with extended times and dual status. There are lots of BR alternatives.
Yes, exactly my thoughts. I just broke even last year if I choose to ignore all the items I bought which I'll reuse in future years. Auk events are very cheap for what is offered.
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How does one qualify for a VIP card, do you have to organise a full SR series?
Probably more. I was a normal participant last time and organised a full SR series.
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As I see it this is not to do with money. ACP are concearned that they will have too many entries and might have to limit numbers. Their solution is introduce a system which will allow selection based on longer term (2010) experience. This will enable them to both allow the maximum number of entries and to give emphasis to more experienced riders, which will hopefully improve completions. The alternatives approaches to limiting entries would be: a) a random lottery, b) a first come first served approach, or c) raise the entrance fee to disuade riders. The latter would have the disadvantage that there may be too few entries!
As to the £1 increase in event entry. I don't see a problem as this will a) increase the places offered to UK riders, b) might be used to reduce PBP costs or reward volunteers at controls etc.
Changes to time limits may be an issue to some. E.g. the extra hour and a bit in BCM can be significant for many. However, its up to the organiser whether they want to allow BR validation of late finishers. After all they are the ones vuolunteering their time waiting at the finish.
Incidently £1 seems a suspiciously round number given exchange rates. Are AUK subsidising/benefitting from this? Not that I really care that much. Just interested.
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As to the £1 increase in event entry. I don't see a problem as this will a) increase the places offered to UK riders, b) might be used to reduce PBP costs or reward volunteers at controls etc.
The problem is for AUK members who have no intention of riding PBP, who are seeing an increase in event cost which brings them no benefit.
Sure, it's a modest increase, but I think the issue is more with a matter of principle. By making many events BRM, AUK is serving the interests of those who wish to ride PBP at a cost to those who do not, and the question is whether this is appropriate?
Of course AUK was originally set up purely to enable British riders to ride PBP, but one can hardly say that remains the sole purpose of the organisation.
Please don't infer that I am taking a particular position on the issue myself. I'm just explaining what the problem is.
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Well we aren't talking about every ride are we, and besides, the people who ride the most and so will be the most affected are the PBP riders.
I rode a few audaxes last year, accrued 46 points, and yet that is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than the vast majority of AUK riders. What would it cost the average rider? £2? £3?
Come on....
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What would it cost the average rider? £2? £3?
I acknowledge above that the sum is trivial. That doesn't mean (as I also mentioned above) that someone who doesn't want to ride PBP is not going to ask - quite reasonably - why they are paying that sum, trivial or not, so someone else can ride PBP.
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I acknowledge above that the sum is trivial. That doesn't mean (as I also mentioned above) that someone who doesn't want to ride PBP is not going to ask - quite reasonably - why they are paying that sum, trivial or not, so someone else can ride PBP.
I think I've seen the people you are talking about.
They can be seen in commercial controls asking for a cup of hot water (free) then surreptioutiously using their own tea-bag to make a brew, wringing out said tea bag and replacing it in th film canister for use at the next control
;)
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What would it cost the average rider? £2? £3?
I acknowledge above that the sum is trivial. That doesn't mean (as I also mentioned above) that someone who doesn't want to ride PBP is not going to ask - quite reasonably - why they are paying that sum, trivial or not, so someone else can ride PBP.
But isn't this how clubs work? Some of our fees go to funding/facilitating events/services that we don't use. It makes things cheaper/better overall for everyone.
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I think I've seen the people you are talking about.
This is a grossly unfair characterisation.
A pint, say, is only 2 or 3 quid, but you'd still be upset if someone took the money out of your pocket in order to buy themselves one - the principle applies even if the amount is trivial.
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But isn't this how clubs work? Some of our fees go to funding/facilitating events/services that we don't use. It makes things cheaper/better overall for everyone.
That's the obvious counterargument, yes, which brings us back to the question of to what degree AUK's purpose is now to send riders to PBP.
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[That's the obvious counterargument, yes, which brings us back to the question of to what degree AUK's purpose is now to send riders to PBP.
Sent to PBP! It's punishing enough doing it voluntarily.
Damon.
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I think I've seen the people you are talking about.
This is a grossly unfair characterisation.
A pint, say, is only 2 or 3 quid, but you'd still be upset if someone took the money out of your pocket in order to buy themselves one - the principle applies even if the amount is trivial.
But we aren't talking about someone taking £2 out of my pocket to buy a pint, we are talking about audax, and in that context given that I get to ride well organised events run by unpaid volunteers at a bargain price I couldn't care less about a couple of quid.
I will personally give you £3 or pour a pint down your throat at an audax local to me if it gets you to stop whinging about this ;D
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But isn't this how clubs work? Some of our fees go to funding/facilitating events/services that we don't use. It makes things cheaper/better overall for everyone.
That's the obvious counterargument, yes, which brings us back to the question of to what degree AUK's purpose is now to send riders to PBP.
Yep, that would be a fair question to raise for discussion. But don't assume that only PBP-aspirants will be in favour (see Flatus!).
In my opinion, now seems the wrong time to raise this point. AUK had to act to give riders the chance of riding in 2011; perhaps the aftermath of PBP2011 would be the right time? Just a suggestion - there are many people with longer histories than I in AUK ... <shuffles backwards humbly, cap-in-hand>
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That's the obvious counterargument, yes, which brings us back to the question of to what degree AUK's purpose is now to send riders to PBP.
in PBP years; very much so (look at how numbers of km ridden and SR percentages rocket in those years; BTW I'm getting this from the AUK website stats)
in other years; a roughly 50/50 mix of sub 200 Populaires (which never pay a penny to ACP) and BR / BRM events. So about a quarter of the rides will attract the ACP £1 over a 4 year period. And I suspect it will be a lot less than half of all riders of AUK events (over half the BR riders in 2009 got 10 points or more), so that's about 500 riders riding the bulk of BR events. (source ; AUK points table and a bit of Excelling)
there was a stat somewhere there I dragged up last year that showed that more finishers in 100km events than all the others put together.
so AUK is a very broad church as has been oft mentioned; the BRM issue is a non-issue to most.
and to put it in context; how many less 200's and above am I going to ride if I have to pay an extra £1 to enter?
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so that's about 500 riders riding the bulk of BR events.
...and I wonder if amongst those 500 riders are the 350 or so that ride PBP? ;)
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That's the obvious counterargument, yes, which brings us back to the question of to what degree AUK's purpose is now to send riders to PBP.
Now ?
Well, it looks as if the answer is "to a large extent"
Historically, that's why it was set up. The idea of shorter rides is to feed into longer ones and eventually to get people to PBP.
Most events are stupidly cheap for what you get, and if more of them are BRM it means that people who ride them will also be better able to claim stuff like the ACP Brevet 5000; when there are few BRMs this can be a bit of a PITA.
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Sure, it's a modest increase, but I think the issue is more with a matter of principle. By making many events BRM, AUK is serving the interests of those who wish to ride PBP at a cost to those who do not, and the question is whether this is appropriate?
It would be most inappropriate for AUK not to maximise our chances of getting to PBP since it's our only way of getting an entry. The others don't have to stump up the extra fee but PBP aspirants have no choice.
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I acknowledge above that the sum is trivial. That doesn't mean (as I also mentioned above) that someone who doesn't want to ride PBP is not going to ask - quite reasonably - why they are paying that sum, trivial or not, so someone else can ride PBP.
I suspect that many riders who are not thinking of PBP - will have no idea that there is a £1 increase on their entry fee to pay for French validation, and in truth they will not care.
If they are aware of it - and do not like it - then there are lots of rides of a 100k that are not BRM'd - and they can always choose to do an ECE ( but that is £3 more) or a DIY 200 , or just ride a long way with a mate.
Pointless exchange of ideas - if you dont like the BRM £1 - dont do the ride.
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AN APPEAL ON BEHALF OF PROSPECTIVE PBP ENTRANTS:
Dear friend.
There are many cyclists out there, too many to mention by name, who are depending on you for their secured place on the long trek from Paris to Brest and back again.
Whilst they are going to do their very best and enter all the events they humanly can, your attendance on BRM events (and especially if you have no intention of riding PBP yourself) will help them gain a place on what is universally known as an event without equal in the world of PBP.
So please; give generously and make every ride a BRM ride between now and July 2007 2011.
Thanks for listening.
H
P.S.
If you can't ride a BRM event yourself, why not enter a friend for a BRM event as a surprise birthday or thanksgiving present? They will thank you greatly for the experience.
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The problem is for AUK members who have no intention of riding PBP, who are seeing an increase in event cost which brings them no benefit.
Do you actually know anyone who falls into this category who consider it a problem ?
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My understanding is that ACP announced their revised criteria after the 2010 calendar was organised, so no more BRMs are being organised than usual. In 2011 the need for BRM status stops after each of the thresholds for qualification is reached, after the end of June they can all be BRs. The question then is whether in 2014 there will be a tendency for events to be BRM throughout the year. I don't see how else ACP can allocate a quota other than by gathering verifiable data.
One way they could help spread the field among the starts would be by using the time stats they get to allocate riders to the various groups, below 34 hours in a 600 to the Randonneurs, below 30 hours to the Vedettes.
Damon.
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One way they could help spread the field among the starts would be by using the time stats they get to allocate riders to the various groups, below 34 hours in a 600 to the Randonneurs, below 30 hours to the Vedettes.
Interesting idea. That might turn 600s into races :)
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They could spread the field among the starts by offering a morning start for tourists. I think many riders feel forced to do the evening, tourist, start because they are not confident of being fast enough for the randoneurs group. However, I'd not like that as the smaller group for the randoneurs made passage through controls on the first day quite pleasant.
Damons idea of time bands would IMO swell the tourists more, I'd not have qualified to be a randoneur in 2007 with a 34 hour 600km cut off. Yet with some determination and no lunch on the last day I could have almost certainly finished in less than 80 hours.
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My understanding is that ACP announced their revised criteria after the 2010 calendar was organised, so no more BRMs are being organised than usual.
That is definitely wrong. The 'draft' criteria were announced well in time for the 2010 calendar - my own event wouldn't exist otherwise.
One way they could help spread the field among the starts would be by using the time stats they get to allocate riders to the various groups, below 34 hours in a 600 to the Randonneurs, below 30 hours to the Vedettes.
Interesting idea. That might turn 600s into races :)
yes, that could be a highly unfortunate consequence; but then again, riders might sandbag their way into the Tourist start!
"Time for another cuppa before I get my card stamped ... "
Damon's idea could be modified - ACP could merely suggest to faster riders that they go for the reduced time limits.
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They'd be time trials as opposed to road races. No need for skull duggery to out fox opponents. Would add some spice though, some great opportunities for cheating too.
Just abolish the touristas, make the groups vedettes and randos. After all, the qualifiers are at rando speeds.
I think more people would choose a morning start if they had more time to complete the ride actually. Maybe offer a morning start for touristas if you really want to keep a 13.3kph or whatever it is. Set them off at 8am onwards to leave a clear run for the randos.
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They'd be time trials as opposed to road races. No need for skull duggery to out fox opponents. Would add some spice though, some great opportunities for cheating too.
Just abolish the touristas, make the groups vedettes and randos. After all, the qualifiers are at rando speeds.
I think more people would choose a morning start if they had more time to complete the ride actually. Maybe offer a morning start for touristas if you really want to keep a 13.3kph or whatever it is. Set them off at 8am onwards to leave a clear run for the randos.
If the Touristes didn't ride the event would probably have a capacity of about 1,000, the bulk of the volunteers are from the FFCT and are doing it on behalf of their fellow members. The evening start limits the disruption caused to traffic.
Damon.
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I think many riders feel forced to do the evening, tourist, start because they are not confident of being fast enough for the randoneurs group.
Me, for a start.
[If you can't ride a BRM event yourself, why not enter a friend for a BRM event as a surprise birthday or thanksgiving present? They will thank you greatly for the experience.
And you, Sir, are STILL a very bad man. :demon:
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The evening start limits the disruption caused to traffic.
So they probably don't want the randos group to get too large then if they are to keep it as a morning start.
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The evening start limits the disruption caused to traffic.
So they probably don't want the randos group to get too large then if they are to keep it as a morning start.
They'll want to restrict the Touristes to 3,000, each group of riders at the start are 500 riders, two groups of Randonneurs would be 1,000, there were 741 in 2007.
Paris-Brest-Paris 2011 (http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/pbp2011/index2.php?lang=en&cat=presentation&page=statistiques)
There were 1356 Vedettes, reflecting the appeal of Sportif riding.
Damon.
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It would be counterproductive to run BR events parallel with existing BRMs, because ACP are counting successful BRM rides ridden - and the longer the better - effectively BRM total kilometres, per country - not merely BRM events calendared.
And they are also comparing activity levels with 4 years previously - so its possible AUK are storing up problems for 4 years hence, by going overboard with BRMs now. Anyone subject to annual assessments knows the importance of starting from a low base!!
Start time - PBP used to have 04:00, 10:00 and 16:00 starts, and the same finish time-of-day cutoff for everyone.
So the 10:00 start with a time limit of 84h was a no-brainer for most entrants, worked really well.
Relationship of AUK to ACP - there is a document in existence, signed by an official from each organisation, that lays out the precise nature of the relationship over the course of several pages. Boiled down, the word that springs to mind is poodle. All the other world randonneur bodies such as RUSA and Audax Oz have signed similar agreements with ACP, I believe.
There is also LRM. Think of the United Nations. Now think of the member countries and their relationship to the UN. Now think of the US, and their relationship to the UN. There you have LRM, the member organisations, and ACP, in a nutshell.
It is partly about the money. Bear in mind that the monies ACP raise by the BRM 'tax' in PBP year probably don't get paid until after PBP (its a yearly lump payment). So they will benefit greatly from the increased revenue they're going to get this year, from the increased BRM activity not just in the UK but all over the world. Cunning, I call it.
I think their fee is 1 euro per validation, so yes at present rates AUK would be subsidising ACP after taking 20p for their own fee (but in most previous years AUK would have profited slightly - but then there is a lot of extra admin by AUK on BRM events, so really they need a cut of at least another 10p anyway).
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I will personally give you £3 or pour a pint down your throat at an audax local to me if it gets you to stop whinging about this ;D
For crying out loud! I reply to a post saying "I don't see a problem" trying to explain the other side of the argument, and I get this? If you actually bothered to read that post you'd see I said I am not trying to state my own position on the issue. I give up. You don't have to respond to everything you disagree with by belittling the people who mention it.
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I will personally give you £3 or pour a pint down your throat at an audax local to me if it gets you to stop whinging about this ;D
For crying out loud! I reply to a post saying "I don't see a problem" trying to explain the other side of the argument, and I get this? If you actually bothered to read that post you'd see I said I am not trying to state my own position on the issue. I give up. You don't have to respond to everything you disagree with by belittling the people who mention it.
;D = having your leg pulled
If that does not compute, please add me to your ignore list. Deary me.
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;D = having your leg pulled
Ah, yes, the familiar idea that you can write any old junk you like, no matter how stupid or offensive, as long as you append a smiley to it.
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Profile> Ignore user options> "Flatus"
Cheers
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Did someone say something? ???
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Francis,
thanks for your post. It explains nicely everything I was wondering about. My beef was pouring needless £££ into the coffers of ACP, it seems there is no alternative.
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I'm sure the money is well used (on PBP, since ACP don't have many other large outgoings).
I do think ACP are being a bit devious by presenting this as a 'pre-qualification' contest though - granted they may well have to limit their entries somehow, but there are plenty of more straightforward tried-and-tested methods, such as, first come first served.
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... and let us not forget other traditional selection methods such as scissors, stone, paper, spoof and ibble dibble.
My preference would be any kind of drinking game that involved a degree of nudity.
Thanks for listening.
H
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Having seen Hummer's Little Friend I can confirm that if size is inversely proportional to likelihood of qualification, our Hummers will be riding PBP 2011
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Having seen Hummer's Little Friend I can confirm that if size is inversely proportional to likelihood of qualification, our Hummers will be riding PBP 2011
Fight Fight Fight
I'm looking forward to the response.
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Having seen Hummer's Little Friend I can confirm that if size is inversely proportional to likelihood of qualification, our Hummers will be riding PBP 2011
it wasn't that little at all when I saw it...
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I guess it depends what you are comparing it to :demon:
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Although diminutive in size, its rejuvenating and restorative properties have become legendary.
Since publishing this in Bikes & Bike Men, I have been flooded with requests from supporters of weary randonneurs to send a multimedial text imaginé of Little Hummers to their friends awheel to spur them on when at their lowest ebb..
It's the Diana Plates, all over again.
H
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No doubt when blown up to larger than life size on a 2.5" screen it looks somewhat more impressive...
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I'm sure the money is well used (on PBP, since ACP don't have many other large outgoings).
I do think ACP are being a bit devious by presenting this as a 'pre-qualification' contest though - granted they may well have to limit their entries somehow, but there are plenty of more straightforward tried-and-tested methods, such as, first come first served.
First come first serve is quite difficult if your crowd comes from everywhere. I can't imagin Norwegians doing their 200 brevets early march, let alone in february.
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First come first serve is quite difficult if your crowd comes from everywhere. I can't imagin Norwegians doing their 200 brevets early march, let alone in february.
The sensible ones moved south centuries ago.
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First come first serve is quite difficult if your crowd comes from everywhere. I can't imagin Norwegians doing their 200 brevets early march, let alone in february.
ISTR they allow different dates to the geographically-challenged such as Alaska and Captain Cook's Mistake. A mate of mine from the latter did all his qualifiers for 2007 in a single week in November 2006.
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First come first serve is quite difficult if your crowd comes from everywhere. I can't imagin Norwegians doing their 200 brevets early march, let alone in february.
ISTR they allow different dates to the geographically-challenged such as Alaska and Captain Cook's Mistake. A mate of mine from the latter did all his qualifiers for 2007 in a single week in November 2006.
If ACP want to reduce DNFs, the should IMO stop awarding homologation for Brevet weeks such as this. People get fit enough to the week, travel to somewhere easy to do it, good weather etc, qualify. Then proceed to do not enough cycling between qualifying and the event and end up having a hard time on PBP especially if the weather is difficult.
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It may be that there are only between 3,500 and 4,000 cyclists in the world who are capable of riding PBP. It might be that all the fiddling in the world can't get more people to finish than that. I suspect that the main reason for DNFs is that the riders at the back of the field get the rawest deal. There should be some system for turning the situation upside-down, with the back-markers getting more help at controls.
Damon.
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I do think that not getting a bed just because you are last to a control is a bit harsh.
Other than that, I'm not sure what tangible iniquities the back-markers faced (and I speak from direct experience). Did you have anything else in mind Damon?
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The people at the back, at the very back at least, face:
- knackered volunteers
- the last of the food
- the indignity of feeling that they're getting in the way of packing up.
I recently read an account of an LEL rider at the very back, which made for quite sobering reading, particularly with regard to the control I managed. The chap felt like an inconvenience, picking over the remains of attention that had been lavished on earlier riders.
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I do think that not getting a bed just because you are last to a control is a bit harsh.
Other than that, I'm not sure what tangible iniquities the back-markers faced (and I speak from direct experience). Did you have anything else in mind Damon?
those of us setting off last had less chance with over 4000 people ahead of us at first.
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I can remember Jim Churton in 1999 describing Loudeac when we were at the Pavilion Bleu ( A hotel which used to be favoured by AUKs). He and Rose had set up a tent in the campsite in Loudeac due to their experience in 1995. Knowing about the problems is the first stage to avoiding them. There is a bit of a conflict between elitism and participation in PBP. You have to be fairly extraordinary to even get to the start but the elite have the easiest passage, because they have spare capacity to deal with problems, those who fall into the 'participant' end of the spectrum find their problems compounded by endless queues. What they need are experienced mentors to speed them through the controls. If you've only ever seen the event from one viewpoint it's hard to conceive what it like at different times. I remember Sheila Simpson writing about this aspect
Damon.
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You are spot on there Damon. Jim & Rosie set up the tents again in 2007 for us, not in Loudeac but about 20km east of there. Jim & I agreed to ride together and I benefited from his experience.
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I do think that not getting a bed just because you are last to a control is a bit harsh.
Other than that, I'm not sure what tangible iniquities the back-markers faced (and I speak from direct experience). Did you have anything else in mind Damon?
I recall the penultimate control (Mortagne?) running out of food during Thursday night in 2003. And at Villaines, they threw everyone out once the deadline for arriving had been met even though many people wanted to grab a few hours' sleep before finishing the ride, which I thought was a bit harsh. I had paced myself so that I wouldn't have to ride through the night between VsJ and MsP but ended up having to do so and then catching up on sleep when I wanted to be riding.
Next time I'll ride faster :D
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And at Villaines, they threw everyone out once the deadline for arriving had been met even though many people wanted to grab a few hours' sleep before finishing the ride, which I thought was a bit harsh. I had paced myself so that I wouldn't have to ride through the night between VsJ and MsP but ended up having to do so and then catching up on sleep when I wanted to be riding.
Next time I'll ride faster :D
I think that probably comes under the heading of Tough Love.
Damon.
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I think that ACP wanting to reduce DNFs is an assumption that is being made without any foundation.
Why would they? PBP is a challenge, not a lap of honour. For a ride to be a challenge, there has to be DNFs.
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Well said, Francis.
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There are some who apparently climb off before it's had a chance to become challenging.
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I think that ACP wanting to reduce DNFs is an assumption that is being made without any foundation.
Why would they? PBP is a challenge, not a lap of honour. For a ride to be a challenge, there has to be DNFs.
The problem comes in catering for the DNFs, or rather not. Once 1,500 riders had packed in 2007 it was noticeable how big the portions got at the later controls. One problem is that you pay as you go at PBP, if you pay upfront as at LEL at least there aren't any financial implications for the organisers if riders drop out. PBP was a statistical blip, there were 3 times the abandons in 2007 compared to 2003, about the same number finished in 2007 and 2003. The general assumption is that the weather was the cause, it might just be that the carrying capacity of the controls and organisation is about 3,500.
Damon.
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It may be that there are only between 3,500 and 4,000 cyclists in the world who are capable of riding PBP. It might be that all the fiddling in the world can't get more people to finish than that.
might not be true; I had never heard of PBP 10 years ago. If awareness of and interest in the ride increased massively and we had say 50,000 entrants (all who would of corse have done their qualifying SR) would not 35-40,000 finish?
maybe I was just replacing natural wastage by becoming interested in Long Distance Cycling and numbers will never rise considerably? stats disagree
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There are probably a fair number who do it once and say "never again"!
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...and then do it again.
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maybe I was just replacing natural wastage by becoming interested in Long Distance Cycling and numbers will never rise considerably? stats disagree
The numbers of starters certainly rose by about 25% in 2007, the number of finishers largely remained static. I remember a US rider saying that more DNFs meant more prestige, there's certainly something in that.
Damon.
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The DNFs should be chucked out of the controls to allow those of us who are still riding and need the rest to get some space.
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maybe I was just replacing natural wastage by becoming interested in Long Distance Cycling and numbers will never rise considerably? stats disagree
The numbers of starters certainly rose by about 25% in 2007, the number of finishers largely remained static. I remember a US rider saying that more DNFs meant more prestige, there's certainly something in that.
a clubmate rode it in 1987; the previous last wet one IIRC. When I told him there were 1600 DNF's in 2007 he replied "oh that would be the Americans" as I believe this happened in 87
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The USAians have dramatically changed their DNF statistics over the years, from around 50% of their starters in '87 to better than the overall average now.
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I think that ACP wanting to reduce DNFs is an assumption that is being made without any foundation.
Why would they? PBP is a challenge, not a lap of honour. For a ride to be a challenge, there has to be DNFs.
That's not the feeling I get when I read the comments of the ACP representatives at the French forum.
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I think that ACP wanting to reduce DNFs is an assumption that is being made without any foundation.
Why would they? PBP is a challenge, not a lap of honour. For a ride to be a challenge, there has to be DNFs.
That's not the feeling I get when I read the comments of the ACP representatives at the French forum.
+1 ;)
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I always thought the main reason so many Americans made it was because for every rider there were at least three other people supporting them at the controls, sorting out their food, checking the bike, washing their kit, going and getting their brevet cards stamped.... :demon:
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I always thought the main reason so many Americans made it was because for every rider there were at least three other people supporting them at the controls, sorting out their food, checking the bike, washing their kit, going and getting their brevet cards stamped.... :demon:
filling a perfectly good sleeping space at Loudeac with dropped bags...
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Cue: that great picture of 2 yanks staring mournfully at a pile of unlabelled drop bags.
...which I thought looked pretty comfy for sleeping on.
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There were plenty unsupported Yanks of course.
I have a recollection that there was some concern over the DNF rate. Qualification is supposed to ensure you have a fighting chance. It didn't seem to work in 2007.
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I am finding that the xenophobiotic tone of this thread, turning as it is into a thinly veiled attack on our Colonial cousins, is in danger of letting the real villian of the piece (and responsible for so many broken dreams) slip out of the back door.
Am I alone in thinking that the fact that so much of the ride took place in France, with its damned rolling Rs, impenetrable 'Allo 'Allo accents and readiness to embrace defeat, may have tipped the scales for many hapless souls in 2007? I think not.
I have noticed the same high DNF rate in rides that take place in Cornwall - a land occupied by a people so closely related to the Bretons they may as well call St Austell 'Little Brest' - and feel this is no mere coincidence.
I for one would like to see the PBP run in Great Britain. Obviously, the P would be Plymouth; that jewel in the south western peninsular and in God's own county (Devon) whilst the B would be somewhere northern, roughly 600k away and also a last outpost of civilisation.Berwick, perhaps?
I believe that the dogged determination of the good honest Tommy to win against all the odds will rub off on Johnny Foreigner.Moreover, shivering on the floor of a community centre in the middle of some ghastly sink estate, steeped in remorse at your own abject failure, wondering if your bike has been nicked, will be less attractive than pressing on and pushing through the pain to the finish and glory.
Thanks for listening.
H
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There were plenty unsupported Yanks of course.
I have a recollection that there was some concern over the DNF rate. Qualification is supposed to ensure you have a fighting chance. It didn't seem to work in 2007.
One thing I noticed about some Americans is that they didn't much like being outside in the weather. Therefore they wrapped every part of themselves, from head to toe, in waterproof gear so that only their eyes were showing, and those they covered with 'eyewear'. Whereas some Italians had no more than a light road jersey and shorts. Both approaches proved less than ideal.
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In 2007 those who weren't acclimatised went out fairly early. The headwind out to Brest had the effect of compressing the field and increasing the load on the controls. I saw very little of Loudeac, as I was tucked up in my support vehicle, but I did spend a lot of time editing video of it. Any qualification criteria have to seek to favour the more experienced riders. The main problem in predicting behaviour is the mix of bad weather and increased numbers, it's not simple to say which factor was most significant and how they interracted. The Loudeac problem is key. It is possible to see PBP as a scientific problem, albeit a very fuzzy one.
In Person: The Ultralong-Distance Quest - Science Careers - Biotech, Pharmaceutical, Faculty, Postdoc jobs on Science Careers (http://sciencecareers.sciencemag.org/career_development/previous_issues/articles/2007_11_02/caredit_a0700156)
Damon.
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The people at the back, at the very back at least, face:
- knackered volunteers
- the last of the food
- the indignity of feeling that they're getting in the way of packing up.
I recently read an account of an LEL rider at the very back, which made for quite sobering reading, particularly with regard to the control I managed. The chap felt like an inconvenience, picking over the remains of attention that had been lavished on earlier riders.
I'm rather pleased by these replies: I wanted to say these things but didn't want to be a whinger ;)
I've seen food options dwindle at the back of both events, but never went hungry; sounds like PBP07 was lucky in that respect.
So that leaves sleep facilities, plus this unquantifiable "knackered volunteers" issue. Both could be addressed by the orgs, but would require extra effort.
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One problem is the distribution of finishers by time.
Paris-Brest-Paris 2011 (http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/pbp2011/index2.php?lang=en&cat=presentation&page=classement_par_temps)
That graph was 2003. If the extra starters in 2007 followed that distribution the impact would not have been so significant. Did the extra starters plan to ride close to the limit, or did circumstances force them to. More riders who can complete in under 80 hours are not a problem. In 2007 1506 riders finished in between 85 and 90 hours.
Damon.
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well I certainly planned to ride close to the 90hr limit; leaving a 5 hr cushion for major problems. Why would anyone want to miss out on any more sleep than necessary?
in the end I did use all of those 5 hrs and more (based on an optimistic schedule of 80hrs which we abandoned after day 3)
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well I certainly planned to ride close to the 90hr limit; leaving a 5 hr cushion for major problems. Why would anyone want to miss out on any more sleep than necessary?
In order to do a time. The first AUK PBP riders were 24 hour time triallists keen to make an impact.
Damon.
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Any qualification criteria have to seek to favour the more experienced riders.
As an experienced rider yourself, "you would say that wouldn't you".
If they wanted to favour newbies over anciens, that would be fairly easy for them to do.
But then I suppose ACP wouldn't be a 'club'.
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One problem is the distribution of finishers by time.
Paris-Brest-Paris 2011 (http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/pbp2011/index2.php?lang=en&cat=presentation&page=classement_par_temps)
That graph was 2003. If the extra starters in 2007 followed that distribution the impact would not have been so significant. Did the extra starters plan to ride close to the limit, or did circumstances force them to. More riders who can complete in under 80 hours are not a problem. In 2007 1506 riders finished in between 85 and 90 hours.
Damon.
Who are the 'extra starters' ? The newbies ? I didn't plan to ride close to the limit. is 2.75 hours inside it considered close ? I'd say so but I was rarely in any panic about completing within time. I secretly hoped <80 hours might have been on but didn't try very hard to manage it. As we progressed we were aware of the time in hand and our ability to bank time, we just rode and afforded ourselves breaks if we needed them. There is no incentive to go any faster.
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In order to do a time.
But for most of use mere mortals, the "time" we'd do is going to be rubbish compared to the fast lads & lasses. For me at least, it's immaterial whether I finish in 70 or 79 hours. I'd rather finish in good shape and well-rested.
Going for a "time" (unless you're at the front or trying to prove something to yourself) is kind of a race against people who aren't racing against you.
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Who are the 'extra starters' ? The newbies ? I didn't plan to ride close to the limit. is 2.75 hours inside it considered close ? I'd say so but I was rarely in any panic about completing within time. I secretly hoped <80 hours might have been on but didn't try very hard to manage it. As we progressed we were aware of the time in hand and our ability to bank time, we just rode and afforded ourselves breaks if we needed them. There is no incentive to go any faster.
Quite. I think I was on schedule for a sub 80 hour finish when I arrived for the return in Mortagne, but decided I would prefer a good night's sleep and a daylight finish. I don't think finish time gives a reliable indication of intermediate control times, nor of the ability of the majority of riders.
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In order to do a time.
But for most of use mere mortals, the "time" we'd do is going to be rubbish compared to the fast lads & lasses. For me at least, it's immaterial whether I finish in 70 or 79 hours. I'd rather finish in good shape and well-rested.
Going for a "time" (unless you're at the front or trying to prove something to yourself) is kind of a race against people who aren't racing against you.
Thast's the essential problem. If all the new riders were after a time, they would distribute themselves throughout the field in a bell curve skewed to about 85 hours, If all additional riders want to participate and use the full time then the controls get clogged towards the end, compounding the delays. That's why I'm wondering if the 3,500 finishers figure is a choke point, with all additional riders exacerbating the DNF problem. If all new entrants were capable of between 65 and 75 hours the problem would not present itself.
Damon.
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You only have to read a few RRs from LEL and PBP to see that even amongst the "also-rans" many riders do indeed
"go for a time."
It might be 5hours inside, or 20hrs, but there are quite a few that do it.
(I have a theory that most planned a "fast touring ride", but found it impossible to sleep for more than 60mins in a strange, crowded place, so just got back on their bikes.)
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So who are the 'additional riders' ?
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So who are the 'additional riders' ?
People who've read about it in Cycling+, seen the adverts for Graham Baxter, (or local equivalent) do an SR and aim for an 88 hour finish, they might also be sponsored, they're mainly male and 42 years old with a slight weight problem.
Damon.
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So who are the 'additional riders' ?
All PBP finishers are equal IMO.
That is what is so fantastic about the event. You can include the names Justin(e) and Sir Hubert Opperman in the same sentence. We both have our names in some Parisien book of Anciennes.
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All PBP finishers are equal IMO.
That is what is so fantastic about the event. You can include the names Justin(e) and Sir Hubert Opperman in the same sentence. We both have our names in some Parisien book of Anciennes.
Well said. I continue to enjoy a quiet smug satisfaction about finishing, even though I struggled the whole way and scraped in with only about an hour to spare. I still don't consider myself a "proper randonneur" but I'm damn pleased I did it.
I'm not really following the intricacies of the new proposed "qualifying filters" but it would be a shame if they imposed some sort of system that made it disproportionately difficult for newbies to have the opportunity of doing what we did.
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I'm not really following the intricacies of the new proposed "qualifying filters" but it would be a shame if they imposed some sort of system that made it disproportionately difficult for newbies to have the opportunity of doing what we did.
Exactly. The new system only makes it disproportionally difficult for those who decide a few months in advance to start. Those who decide now have no more difficulties as the anciens.
Following the various bits and pieces of info from Paris, the group they really want to skip are the cyclosportif riders. Those who don't care about BRM except for 4 events to qualify for PBP. Those who desperately want to set a time and when they see they can't make it, pack. That's the group which was heading back to Paris allready in the first night, if they were not cosely wrapped up in their support cars allready in Mortagne.
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they're mainly male and 42 years old with a slight weight problem.
Yes, and I've put on another stone since then :-[
Time for the Charlotte Church diet
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they're mainly male and 42 years old with a slight weight problem.
Come PBP, I aspire to be male, 42 with a slight weight.
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Heh. I'll be 39. Younger, heavier (probably) and slower (almost certainly).
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Not so much "going for a time" as "going outside and may be some time".
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Exactly. The new system only makes it disproportionally difficult for those who decide a few months in advance to start. Those who decide now have no more difficulties as the anciens.
Fair enough.
Following the various bits and pieces of info from Paris, the group they really want to skip are the cyclosportif riders. Those who don't care about BRM except for 4 events to qualify for PBP. Those who desperately want to set a time and when they see they can't make it, pack.
If that's the case, and it's necessary to constrain entrant numbers, I have no problem with a system that has a bias against this style of rider.
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The only time I ever care about is the train home.
It's an unwritten rule in the Mason-Webb household that if in return for going out on these jollies, if I get home in time I'm still expected to get dinner on.
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Exactly. The new system only makes it disproportionally difficult for those who decide a few months in advance to start. Those who decide now have no more difficulties as the anciens.
Fair enough.
Following the various bits and pieces of info from Paris, the group they really want to skip are the cyclosportif riders. Those who don't care about BRM except for 4 events to qualify for PBP. Those who desperately want to set a time and when they see they can't make it, pack.
If that's the case, and it's necessary to constrain entrant numbers, I have no problem with a system that has a bias against this style of rider.
I must admit that aesthetically I prefer the back of the field, it's much more interesting, but all the spare capacity for extra riders is towards the front of the field. At present PBP is like a pub that attracts a lot of customers for last orders, it's chaos at the bar as everyone tries to get served before time is called. A sensible landlord tries to spread the load by attracting customers earlier in the evening to give the staff something to do, some food or a quiz perhaps, or a clairvoyant evening. ACP needs to provide some good long distance sportifs to inculcate some manners into the fast riders and feed into PBP. There's an appetite for PBP among sportif riders, but no real way for them to get into the culture.
I must say that the leading riders at LEL were exemplary in their behaviour, maybe it's down to groups like AUK to provide events to promote gentlemanly and indeed ladylike sportifs.
Damon.
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The only time I ever care about is the train home.
Train home?
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People who've read about it in Cycling+, seen the adverts for Graham Baxter, (or local equivalent) do an SR and aim for an 88 hour finish, they might also be sponsored, they're mainly male and 42 years old with a slight weight problem.
Damon.
Damn, that's me out as I am (according to my BMI), obese, don't read Cycling Slut, think of Baxters as soup, will be two years off 50 in 2011 and am considering the 80 hour start.
H
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[
Following the various bits and pieces of info from Paris, the group they really want to skip are the cyclosportif riders. Those who don't care about BRM except for 4 events to qualify for PBP. Those who desperately want to set a time and when they see they can't make it, pack. That's the group which was heading back to Paris allready in the first night, if they were not cosely wrapped up in their support cars allready in Mortagne.
Sorry - can't see what's wrong with cyclosporif riders who follow the rules to qualify. They may never do a BRM..but then again most people don't do that many BRM's outside a PBP year.
I wonder if ACP should insist on mudguards and the compulsory carrying of flapjacks in order to encourage the right sort of rider?
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completely agree with Liam on this; anyone who can qualify for PBP should be allowed and encouraged to ride and the very best of luck to them
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Following the various bits and pieces of info from Paris, the group they really want to skip are the cyclosportif riders.
...
Sorry - can't see what's wrong with cyclosporif riders who follow the rules to qualify. They may never do a BRM..but then again most people don't do that many BRM's outside a PBP year.
I wonder if ACP should insist on mudguards and the compulsory carrying of flapjacks in order to encourage the right sort of rider?
Liam:
I think Ivo is just stating ACP's view (but maybe he agrees with it, I'm not sure!).
[ This issue has been discussed since Jan 2009, so it's probably a bit late to sway ACP for the 2011 event:
PBP 2011 qualification & entry (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=13968.msg309458#msg309458)
Nothing to do with mudguards, AFAIK ]
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Sorry - can't see what's wrong with cyclosporif riders who follow the rules to qualify.
There is nothing wrong with those who follow the rules. It was a few who raced round, were rude to controllers and helpers, scattered rubbish, and generally did not observe the spirit of the event. Hence ACP refused to list riders in order of finishing time and wishes to discourage that kind of cyclist.
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Sorry - can't see what's wrong with cyclosporif riders who follow the rules to qualify.
There is nothing wrong with those who follow the rules. It was a few who raced round, were rude to controllers and helpers, scattered rubbish, and generally did not observe the spirit of the event. Hence ACP refused to list riders in order of finishing time and wishes to discourage that kind of cyclist.
I presume these were nothing do to with the Vedettes group who raced around in 45hrs; whom I presume ACP welcome as PBP is still officially an amature race;
is is true that the Vedettes are allowed more assistance on the ride? (I've heard stories of them running in and out of controls and having musettes hang around their necks as they exit each control; they certainly had a motorcycle in front and supporting cars behind when they flashed past me on the way to Loudeac having already been to Brest)
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I presume these were nothing do to with the Vedettes group who raced around in 45hrs; whom I presume ACP welcome as PBP is still officially an amature race;
The stories I heard were defintely vedettes, but not sure of their placing/times.
is is true that the Vedettes are allowed more assistance on the ride? (I've heard sories of them running in and out of controls and having musettes hang around their necks as they exit each control)
Getting food from helpers at a control is fine - even for the likes of thee and me!
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I presume these were nothing do to with the Vedettes group who raced around in 45hrs; whom I presume ACP welcome as PBP is still officially an amature race;
It was some of those on the 80hr start. Nothing to do with their speed, just their behaviour.
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It's not a race, there is a minimum time based on 18kph. Some confusion arises because ACP is a small club which holds the right to stage PBP Randonee. ACP has members in the FFCT, the French CTC in effect and UFOLEP, which is the amateur racing body. So you can enter PBP on either an FFCT or a UFOLEP licence if you are French. it seems to me that most of the organising is done by FFCT local groups who identify less with the sportive biased UFOLEP riders. I could be wrong in this view and would be happy to be corrected by anyone with more direct contact with the organisation.
Site officiel de l'Audax Club Parisien (http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/EN/index.php?showpage=23)
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There's no minimum time/max speed for the 80hr starters.
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There's no minimum time/max speed for the 80hr starters.
There was in 2007, the intermediate controls were free of time constraints for the 80 hour group, but the final control opened at a time equating to 18kph, 42 hours and a bit I think. The 2011 regs aren't up yet though.
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Damon, you don't seem to have your maths head on today:
42 hours for 1200km is not 18kph. (more like 28kph)
I do recall signs up at the start in 2007, saying something about a max speed - but I didn't take much notice (for obvious reasons).
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Damon, you don't seem to have your maths head on today:
42 hours for 1200km is not 18kph. (more like 28kph)
I do recall signs up at the start in 2007, saying something about a max speed - but I didn't take much notice (for obvious reasons).
You're right of course, that's what comes from being tall, a long stem allows 2 speedos, one MPH and one KPH, I end up confusing the two.
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There is nothing wrong with those who follow the rules. It was a few who raced round, were rude to controllers and helpers, scattered rubbish, and generally did not observe the spirit of the event. Hence ACP refused to list riders in order of finishing time and wishes to discourage that kind of cyclist.
Agreed, people who break the rules are bad.
However, I doubt there are few of the purist persuasion who haven't at some stage failed to be completely courteous to controllers and helpers (especially at the end of a trying day), who have dropped the odd flapjack wrapper and been guilty of failing to observe someone else's idea of what the spirit of the event should be. I've may have even rushed a final section once because I'd promised my wife I'd be home on time.
Do extra qualifying hurdles discourage this sort of behaviour?
The more the merrier I say and if we want to promote standards of behaviour and a style of participation then it's probably down to us to lead by example.
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They're over-subscribed anyway. 5,500 last time was a struggle. So why not discourage those who cause hassle and don't support the randonneur calendar at other times. Hence also they're allowing other 1200s in PBP years.
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Will BRM rides earlier than the ACP guideline 'window' be usable for qualification? For example, The Dean 300 is before the official window for a 300 but it's still BRM. I know the ACP window is stated as a guideline.
I've only really got time for a minimal SR, and it helps if I can book rides as early as possible, so it's important to me to find out an official answer as possible.
Put it another way, I'm not interested in guesswork and assumptions as I will be basing my qualifying rides on the answers I get, and I find the Dean is too early to qualify as a 300 PBP qualifier then I will become very very angry and start hunting people down...
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Jean-Gualbert Faburel said the the windows are 'advisory'.
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Put it another way, I'm not interested in guesswork and assumptions as I will be basing my qualifying rides on the answers I get, and I find the Dean is too early to qualify as a 300 PBP qualifier then I will become very very angry and start hunting people down...
Plan qualifiers to be within the published window and avoid all doubt.
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Put it another way, I'm not interested in guesswork and assumptions as I will be basing my qualifying rides on the answers I get, and I find the Dean is too early to qualify as a 300 PBP qualifier then I will become very very angry and start hunting people down...
Plan qualifiers to be within the published window and avoid all doubt.
Rules out the Bryan Chapman then. (Not a problem as I'm doing the K&SW).
But, in the absence of a formal answer it's pretty much what I'm doing, so no Dean for me.
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Sounds quite clear to me:
Paris-Brest-Paris 2011 (http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/pbp2011/index2.php?lang=en&cat=preparation&page=calendrier_brevet)
If you want to be really sure go there: La qualification (http://parisbrestparis2007.actifforum.com/la-qualification-f51/)
and post a subject to double check.
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Sounds quite clear to me:
Paris-Brest-Paris 2011 (http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/pbp2011/index2.php?lang=en&cat=preparation&page=calendrier_brevet)
" The recommended planning for French organizers ... "
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Well, I shall be riding the Dean and the BCM regardless.
*DaveB looks up, startled*
*Blacksheep looks anxious. Baas*
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At this rate the K&SW is looking increasingly popular.
Lots of targets for that buzzard!
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Lots of targets for that buzzard!
There's safety in numbers? Hmm... how many people need to enter before I feel safe from the scenery?
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Just don't wear a h****t :)
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Can't readily find the answer to this, so resorting to calling on the wisdom of you all.
Can I ask quick question as an organiser of an event on 12 February for which someone has asked "is your 200 a PBP qualifier" - what is the qualifying window for 200km events in the UK (the French website suggest that for France it starts 24/2, but anticipate UK specific might be different).
I thought my event was (given I was forced to make it BRM) but it might be that things have moved on as ACP start making decisions.
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The AUK website (see the PBP link on the Left Hand Nav Bar):- http://www.aukweb.net/pbp/index.htm (http://www.aukweb.net/pbp/index.htm)
That says the provisional dates are: "A 200 by April 22".
This is not an official answer obviously, good luck finding one of them...
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As Sheila said elsewhere: if it's BRM between Jan and the cutoff (June 18?) it's a qualifier.
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The previous 2 editions of PBP, AUK has run qualifiers from the start of the year, but we just slightly delayed passing the results on to ACP on the assumption that they weren't really geared up for it until mid-Feb. Even that probably won't be necessary this time around - but for the very earliest qualifiers, the results coming back might be a bit slower than usual. .
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If you want to look at the provisional French BRM calendar for 2011 (http://jeanpba.homeip.net/?page=90&onglet=1&annee=2011), you'll probably see that some of those events fall outside the advised windows.
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Well, that's me decided. I'll be doing 200, 300, 400 and 600 all out of Bourges. It was either there or Tours (as they're more or less equidistant for me) but the nearest hotel to the start point is €30 cheaper in Bourges. Boring way to decide but I guess needs must!
Then I can do the beast 600 for fun!!
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Well, that's me decided. I'll be doing 200, 300, 400 and 600 all out of Bourges. It was either there or Tours (as they're more or less equidistant for me) but the nearest hotel to the start point is €30 cheaper in Bourges. Boring way to decide but I guess needs must!
Then I can do the beast 600 for fun!!
So have the ACP relaxed the guidelines on where you do your qualifiers then?
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Well, that's me decided. I'll be doing 200, 300, 400 and 600 all out of Bourges. It was either there or Tours (as they're more or less equidistant for me) but the nearest hotel to the start point is €30 cheaper in Bourges. Boring way to decide but I guess needs must!
Then I can do the beast 600 for fun!!
So have the ACP relaxed the guidelines on where you do your qualifiers then?
In 95 my 400 qualifier was done in France.
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In 2007 I did my 400 & 600 qualifiers as part of Brevet Mallorca on 2nd & 4th/5th May respectively. These events (and the others that took place during a 2 week period) were advertised as PBP qualifiers.
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You can do your qualifiers anywhere. In 2003 I did my 200 in Russia. No problems with that. One of my clubmates won't be home from a round the worldtrip before the Parisian qualifiers start. So he'll do his 200 (and maybe his 300) somewhere along his way.
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Can you just clarify for me - I am over in Australia now for 2 months - their rides are French approved - so if I do a SR series there (ie in 2010) - but enter in 2011 thru AUK ( as i am not a member of Audax Australia ) do any Oz rides provide the Brevet number that I will need - and therefore I do not have to do an SR in UK? Or since their year also starts on Nov 1st - would it only be rides after Nov 1st that would count?
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Can you just clarify for me - I am over in Australia now for 2 months - their rides are French approved - so if I do a SR series there (ie in 2010) - but enter in 2011 thru AUK ( as i am not a member of Audax Australia ) do any Oz rides provide the Brevet number that I will need - and therefore I do not have to do an SR in UK? Or since their year also starts on Nov 1st - would it only be rides after Nov 1st that would count?
Any rides done before the 1st of november would count for pre-qualifying. What happens with the rides between the 1st of november and the 1st of march I don't know. Whatever you do afterwards (and is BRM) counts.
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Can you just clarify for me - I am over in Australia now for 2 months - their rides are French approved - so if I do a SR series there (ie in 2010) - but enter in 2011 thru AUK ( as i am not a member of Audax Australia ) do any Oz rides provide the Brevet number that I will need - and therefore I do not have to do an SR in UK? Or since their year also starts on Nov 1st - would it only be rides after Nov 1st that would count?
From Audax Australia (http://audax.org.au/public/)
To qualify, Australian riders must complete a Super Randonneur series (200km, 300km, 400km and 600km rides) within the southern hemisphere qualifying period (usually from 1 Nov in the year prior to PBP to 31 May in the year of PBP). During this period there are many rides to choose from in all regions of Australia.
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I am not sure thta I have understood your answers.
Can OZ rides in Nov 2010 ( BRM approved ) be included as part of my AUK entry, when our rides normally start in early 2011
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I am not sure thta I have understood your answers.
Can OZ rides in Nov 2010 ( BRM approved ) be included as part of my AUK entry, when our rides normally start in early 2011
That's exactly the trouble point, november and december. Since the seasons are not parallel. The only one who could give you the real answer is the PBP itself. If you speak french it it's best to ask your question on the French forum where also 2 ACP representatives are present.
Generally said you're safe if you do your BRM within the usual northern Hemisphere qualifying period, anything between 1st of march and end of june won't be a problem. Between the 1st of january and the 1st of march shouldn't be a problem (but I'm not 100% sure), it's november and december where I'm doubting.
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November is our calendar change-over too, right?
Are UK BRM rides in 2010 (but in the 10-11 calendar) qualifying rides for PBP or not?
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November is our calendar change-over too, right?
Are UK BRM rides in 2010 (but in the 10-11 calendar) qualifying rides for PBP or not?
no.
Here's what the AUK page says
"In order to qualify for entry to the 2011 PBP by riding in the UK, randonnees designated as RM or 'Randonneur Mondiaux' events must be completed at the four distances of 200, 300, 400 and 600 kilometres, during the first half of 2011.
The following dates are provisional:
* A 200 by April 22
* A 300 from April 7 to May 20
* A 400 from April 28 to June 3
* A 600 from May 17 to June 17
Not all AUK events are 'qualifying rides' - those that are, are clearly marked in the 2011 Calendar." (My emphasis)
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not
the 1st qualifier is Peebles , Jan 3rd (brrr!)
but I'd be surprised if there was any problem with fidgetbuzz doing Ozzie qualifiers, whenever they are.
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Here's what the
Not all AUK events are 'qualifying rides' - those that are, are clearly marked in the 2011 Calendar." (My emphasis)
Thanks - should have read the manual!! :-[
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November is our calendar change-over too, right?
Are UK BRM rides in 2010 (but in the 10-11 calendar) qualifying rides for PBP or not?
no.
Here's what the AUK page says
"In order to qualify for entry to the 2011 PBP by riding in the UK, randonnees designated as RM or 'Randonneur Mondiaux' events must be completed at the four distances of 200, 300, 400 and 600 kilometres, during the first half of 2011.
The following dates are provisional:
* A 200 by April 22
* A 300 from April 7 to May 20
* A 400 from April 28 to June 3
* A 600 from May 17 to June 17
Not all AUK events are 'qualifying rides' - those that are, are clearly marked in the 2011 Calendar." (My emphasis)
BCM600 is May 14, I assume that the above "provisional" dates have now been extended to allow for May 14 600's?
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LEE:
Does it say PBP next to it in the calendar? :)
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LEE:
Does it say PBP next to it in the calendar? :)
Quite. For clarity: If an event is listed in the AUK online calendar with its date highlighted in yellow and "PBP" before the entry fee on the listing's second, it is a PBP qualifier. If it doesn't, then it is not.
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Those provisional dates have been superseded by the pamphlet on the ACP website, here.
Site officiel de l'Audax Club Parisien (http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/EN/index.php?showpage=41)
Scroll down and click on the pamphlet; it shows these dates:
HOMOLOGATED TIME OF YEAR
BRM 200 km > fromFebruary 26 to April 24
BRM 300 km > fromApril 9 to May 22
BRM 400 km > fromApril 23 to June 4
BRM 600 km > fromMay 14 to June 26
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I guess the aukweb page dates should be updated.
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On first glance the time window looks more relaxed as previous times (with the exeption of the winter 200s).
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I guess the aukweb page dates should be updated.
All our BRM PBP events are qualifiers. No updating required.
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I guess the aukweb page dates should be updated.
All our BRM PHP events are qualifiers. No updating required.
::-)
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I guess the aukweb page dates should be updated.
All our BRM PHP events are qualifiers. No updating required.
::-)
I didn't say that.
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How would the panel rate chances of entry with only a BRM 400 this year ?
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How would the panel rate chances of entry with only a BRM 400 this year ?
You'll be lower in priority for entry than people with BRM 1000 or BRM 600 this year, but it's generally been suggested that the UK will not have a problem with places.
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How would the panel rate chances of entry with only a BRM 400 this year ?
You'll be lower in priority for entry than people with BRM 1000 or BRM 600 this year, but it's generally been suggested that the UK will not have a problem with places.
See earlier discussion for why this is believed ... but I've just done another check;
there are only 257 SRs this year*. in 2007 287 AUKs finished PBP (and quite a lot more started). So there aren't _very_ many people ahead of you, even assuming they all want to ride PBP and qualify.
*So far, still the Belgian 600 to go. And not all those 257 will be BRM.
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there are only 257 SRs this year*.
*So far, still the Belgian 600 to go. And not all those 257 will be BRM.
thanks Matt. My 600 was not BRM, but there can't be many of us. Pre registration will be going in at 00:01 AM on 1st May !
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Judging by assorted other comments, I'm not worried about not completing a 600BRM, or any BRM ride, this year, thereby missing an early spot. I'm much more worried that I've not done a single Audax event this season.
It's gonna be a long, hard winter.
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Don't worry Andy mine will be going in at the same time....(being unable to get time off / fitness for a 600 at the end of Oct..). :thumbsup:
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It won't matter, AUK won't fill its PBP quota this time. Anybody willing to take a beer's worth of bet against it?
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It won't matter, AUK won't fill its PBP quota this time. Anybody willing to take a beer's worth of bet against it?
I would? The general feeling I get is that these places are few and far between - I might be wrong of course and someone please correct me if I am.
Like others I'm looking to do the PBP next year but have done no events (not even a memeber of AUK yet). The best I can do, is the SR series and when pre-registration opens to anyone who has not done a BRM event in 2010, which is the beginning of June I do believe, is to put my name down.
Already looking at events in Jan next year. I thought there was no date restriction on when you had to do your 200, 300, 400 and 600? Just that you had to them in the 2011 season and by a certain date a few weeks before the PBP starts?
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Overseas quota places will be tight but the last two PBPs, the number of AUK starters has been around 300 riders. The amount of AUK's ACP-homologated brevets in 2010 has been at least an order of magnitude greater than in 2006. I don't think that any other of the 13 "PBP quota countries" will even come close to that. The ratio between the two numbers governs the size of each country's PBP quota and accordingly, every AUK who wants to ride PBP will be able to do so.
Still willing to take that bet? I like beer!
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I thought there was no date restriction on when you had to do your 200, 300, 400 and 600
on the contrary, there are strict dates in which your qualification events should be done. I think they are somewhere earlier in this thread, in fact.
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Overseas quota places will be tight but the last two PBPs, the number of AUK starters has been around 300 riders. The amount of AUK's ACP-homologated brevets in 2010 has been at least an order of magnitude greater than in 2006. I don't think that any other of the 13 "PBP quota countries" will even come close to that. The ratio between the two numbers governs the size of each country's PBP quota and accordingly, every AUK who wants to ride PBP will be able to do so.
I don't think it's that simple. Assume ACP applies the formula (http://www.rusa.org/pbp-2011-entries.html) based on those figures and the UK gets allotted 3000 places compared to ~300 in 2007. Those extra 2700 places have to come from somewhere, and they come out of the allocations for the other 12 countries that sent more than 50 people in 2007.
Do you really think they're going to apply that formula with no modifications based on what the UK has done differently this year?
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Agreed but they are likely to redistribute the excess UK PBP places after all AUKs have entered
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Or they'll fudge something up that disadvantages riders from countries with high DNF rates. Which, by a happy coincidence, also isn't the UK.
I wouldn't take LW&B's bet.
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Agreed but they are likely to redistribute the excess UK PBP places after all AUKs have entered
True, I'd forgotten that the entry process isn't that simple.
The workings of it in 2007 were kind of documented at the previous place.
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Or they will realise that working an allocation per country is next to impossible and will manage the restriction generally rather than on a country per country basis!
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The workings of it in 2007 were kind of documented at the previous place.
Am I missing something - I thought it was unlimited last time? ???
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The workings of it in 2007 were kind of documented at the previous place.
Am I missing something - I thought it was unlimited last time? ???
They said there'd be a limit of 4500 iirc. 5300 or sonstarted n
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Still willing to take that bet?
I wouldn't, either
AUK has not filled its quota the last 2 times. I can't see that being much different this time.
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The workings of it in 2007 were kind of documented at the previous place.
Am I missing something - I thought it was unlimited last time? ???
For us, yes, because UK was under quota. Had we exceeded that then it would not have been unlimited.
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So it was unlimited, but subject to a fair use clause? :)
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Right. a question has cropped up via one of my riders:
If you join AUK after riding a 3/4/600BRM in 2010, how do you let ACP know you did it?
(Perhaps the better question is - how do rides get assigned to a member from before she/he joined? )
I suspect this was addressed many months ago, but I didn't care then ...
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Right. a question has cropped up via one of my riders:
If you join AUK after riding a 3/4/600BRM in 2010, how do you let ACP know you did it?
(Perhaps the better question is - how do rides get assigned to a member from before she/he joined? )
I suspect this was addressed many months ago, but I didn't care then ...
They have to claim, via the AUK Recorder, with evidence (ideally the number of the validation sticker).
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I'm in that boat, I claimed for the event i did before i joined It is now on the AUK site results, is that enough or do i have to take it further?
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Thanks Ian - I've done the necessary.
I'm in that boat, I claimed for the event i did before i joined It is now on the AUK site results, is that enough or do i have to take it further?
Is it listed under your membership number? If so, that should be all until next year.
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Yes, and i think my Club (CTC) was on Brevet too. I noticed the potential club problem in the Arrivee.
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If you join AUK after riding a 3/4/600BRM in 2010, how do you let ACP know you did it?
All successful riders of UK BRMs are on already ACP's records, regardless of whether they were/are AUK members or not. Provided they don't change their name, there should be no difficulty.
No claiming required.
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If you join AUK after riding a 3/4/600BRM in 2010, how do you let ACP know you did it?
All successful riders of UK BRMs are on already ACP's records, regardless of whether they were/are AUK members or not. Provided they don't change their name, there should be no difficulty.
No claiming required.
Ah well, Neville's already done it at lightning speed. :thumbsup:
(I suppose there is slightly less scope for confusion if all a rider's events are tied to the 1 membership number - especially for Smiths, Joneses etc)
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Provided they don't change their name, there should be no difficulty.
Another reason not to take one's spouse's surname. Or join AUK before marrying, I guess.
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The workings of it in 2007 were kind of documented at the previous place.
Am I missing something - I thought it was unlimited last time? ???
They said there'd be a limit of 4500 iirc. 5300 or sonstarted n
A little more info is available here-
Jan Heine interviews Jean-Gualbert Faburel about PBP 2011-
PBP 2011: “We Hope to Accommodate All Riders” | Off The Beaten Path (http://janheine.wordpress.com/2010/12/13/pbp-2011-we-hope-to-accommodate-all-riders/)
Actually there's info on a variety of topics re PBP. Much of it may not really be news or very precise but it is authoritative and reflects current planning.
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Thanks Chuck. Some interesting stuff there:
Jean-Gualbert Faburel, president of the ACP:
To reduce the waiting at the controls, we have chosen a new control system. There still will be a brevet card that is stamped, but the magnetic card will be replaced by a chip that is attached close to the rider’s foot. The chip will be detected automatically when the rider enters the controls. We also will open new facilities between Loudéac and Carhaix, at Saint-Nicolas-du-Pélem. This will not be a control, but only a spot to eat and sleep. We are looking for similar facilities on other parts of the route.
...
Another important point concerns the 400 km brevet. We recommend starting this brevet at 4 p.m., to learn riding through the night. Many people come to PBP without ever having spent a complete night on the bike. The first night of PBP can come as a shock for them. Thus, we have a very large number of abandons after 400 km, which is unnecessary.
For the 2011 PBP, you will have to change your habits, because the start times are moved forward by three hours. Thus, you will arrive sooner in Loudéac or Carhaix. Avoid stopping too soon, because you would have to leave again in the middle of the night to avoid being outside the time limit.
:thumbsup:
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i'm almost certainly not doing PBP, but just hypothetically supposing i did decide to, just reading under "Article 2 - conditions of entry" on this (http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/pbp2011/index2.php?lang=en&cat=randonnee&page=reglement) page, it says
Riders must have completed in 2007 «Brevets de Randonneurs Mondiaux» qualifying events of 200, 300, 400, and 600 km, organised in France or abroad and validated exclusively by Audax Club Parisien
in 2007? is that a misprint or do you have to have done an SR in 2007 in order to do pbp in 2011?
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i'm almost certainly not doing PBP, but just hypothetically supposing i did decide to, just reading under "Article 2 - conditions of entry" on this (http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/pbp2011/index2.php?lang=en&cat=randonnee&page=reglement) page, it says Riders must have completed in 2007 «Brevets de Randonneurs Mondiaux» qualifying events of 200, 300, 400, and 600 km, organised in France or abroad and validated exclusively by Audax Club Parisien
in 2007? is that a misprint or do you have to have done an SR in 2007 in order to do pbp in 2011?
Ah but at the top of that page it says this:PBP 2011 rules will be available in january 2011. In the meantime, you can consult the 2007 version. So no excuse there then.
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in 2007? is that a misprint or do you have to have done an SR in 2007 in order to do pbp in 2011?
Not even the French are that bonkers about rules and regulations.
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Just one question, what exactly do they mean by a RM 1200+ & would my End2End 1400 count ???
I'm guessing not, so will have to pre-register May 1st.
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Your E2E is not homologated by Les Randonneurs Mondiaux, only by Audax UK.
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Your E2E is not homologated by Les Randonneurs Mondiaux, only by Audax UK.
so May the 1st it is, thanks :thumbsup:
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Yes, and i think my Club (CTC) was on Brevet too. I noticed the potential club problem in the Arrivee.
Hello - I couldn't find the issue of Arrivee that had this 'club problem' in. Could someone enlighten me, or summarise here?
Thanks
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Hope someone picks this up and replies accurately.............
Does anyone know if I can use a different address for all PBP correspondence?
Its just that the post in my area is appalling at best and dont want stuff lost as is often the case and certainly not the medal.
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In previous years, Aussies going over to Europe for a holiday well before PBP would give a European address for the documentation to be sent to (there used to be documents sent to the rider a few weeks before PBP). I can't imagine that there would be any problem with using another postal address. Everything except the return of your brevet card and medal will be over the internet this time anyway.
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April 3rd is looming for those of us that can have first dibs on preregistration.
I'm guessing a link will appear on the official PBP page to an online form.
I've got my Mille Cymru brevet card to hand, and my creditcard for the Euro fee. Anything else required you think?
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April 3rd is looming for those of us that can have first dibs on preregistration.
I'm guessing a link will appear on the official PBP page to an online form.
I've got my Mille Cymru brevet card to hand, and my creditcard for the Euro fee. Anything else required you think?
Here it is:
Paris-Brest-Paris 2011 (http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/pbp2011/index2.php?lang=en&cat=inscription&page=preinscription2)
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Anything else required you think?
Complete confidence that the remaining qualifiers will go without a hitch? You won't be ill at some crucial time in the next five months? No family/work troubles will interfere with your plans? I merely ask.
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April 3rd is looming for those of us that can have first dibs on preregistration.
I'm guessing a link will appear on the official PBP page to an online form.
I've got my Mille Cymru brevet card to hand, and my creditcard for the Euro fee. Anything else required you think?
A brief post every week to remind the rest that they might miss out? O:-)
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April 3rd is looming for those of us that can have first dibs on preregistration.
I'm guessing a link will appear on the official PBP page to an online form.
I've got my Mille Cymru brevet card to hand, and my creditcard for the Euro fee. Anything else required you think?
A brief post every week to remind the rest that they might miss out? O:-)
NUMBER OF PLACES REMAINING: 267
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A brief post every week to remind the rest that they might miss out? O:-)
Thought I'd leave that to Ural.
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Anything else required you think?
Complete confidence that the remaining qualifiers will go without a hitch? You won't be ill at some crucial time in the next five months? No family/work troubles will interfere with your plans? I merely ask.
Well he knocked off Mille Cymru, the Wessex Series, and a 1300 into the bargain last year, I don't think qualifying for PBP is going to give him any bother!
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Anything else required you think?
Complete confidence that the remaining qualifiers will go without a hitch? You won't be ill at some crucial time in the next five months? No family/work troubles will interfere with your plans? I merely ask.
I've already booked flights and hotels.
Work won't interfere, I can easily say 'no' to that. Family troubles can easily get in the way but I've done all I can to prevent that and there's nothing I can do to prevent myself getting ill for a qualifier (there are others) or for the event itself (oh well).
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Anything else required you think?
Complete confidence that the remaining qualifiers will go without a hitch? You won't be ill at some crucial time in the next five months? No family/work troubles will interfere with your plans? I merely ask.
Well he knocked off Mille Cymru, the Wessex Series, and a 1300 into the bargain last year, I don't think qualifying for PBP is going to give him any bother!
Thought I'd have a quiet year this year and just ride PBP.
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376 left now. I guess some people have been trying to preregister without a 1000km brevet number.
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Had a nasty moment when over several attempts it wouldn't accept my homologation number (having grabbed the brevet card and taken it from there, rather than looking up on the AUK site). Of course, it wouldn't accept my LEL number would it ? :facepalm:
MC number entered, and I guess I'm committed. Or need to be :)
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376 left now. I guess some people have been trying to preregister without a 1000km brevet number.
Remaining places as of 9.45am on 3rd April:-
Allemagne 374
Australie 167
Autriche 30
Belgique 109
Canada 109
Danemark 181
Espagne 198
France 2388
Grande-Bretagne 376
Italie 334
Japon 283
Pays-Bas 74
Russie 79
Suède 106
Suisse 33
USA 651
Autres 308
Total 5800
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Well the maths says there will be plenty left when we 600ers get to punt in in a couple of weeks. I will be up at midnight though! :-)
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Who are UFOLEP & FSGT, and why do they have to wait an extra week at each pre-regn stage?
Pre-registration opens on
FFCT or
International
UFOLEP
or FSGT
1000 KM or RM1200+
April 3, 2011
April 10, 2011
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UFLOEP and FSGT are sports (multi activities) associations but why they have to wait a week I dont know unless its numbers to process - they are only french and the french have nearly 50% of allocated places.....
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Yes, and among the French the FFCT members have a preferential position. UFOLEP and FSGT members are allowed but don't have the first pick of places.
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I've finally got my act together and have just pregistered - had better do some cycling now I suppose :)
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Google.
FSGT seem to be a non-cycling-specific organisation:
Google Translate (http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.fsgt.org/&ei=LqepTe-jOYyFhQeF5bVq&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CCIQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dfsgt%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26prmd%3Divns)
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As a 600 rider just pre-registered - now showing 273 spaces left for UK
and down to 244 now (18/4)
Rog
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I tried to find out how many riders have done a 400k. Failed.
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I tried to find out how many riders have done a 400k. Failed.
The old site had a way but the new site doesn't.
I can't imagine they'll be too many people that only went as far as 400km in 2010. It's all I did, but that's because I had little free time for Audaxing. If I'd had the time that I had in 2009 then I'd have been doing to MC1K and an SR (or two).
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I tried to find out how many riders have done a 400k. Failed.
I think i read somewhere just over 400
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I tried to find out how many riders have done a 400k. Failed.
The old site had a way but the new site doesn't.
Presumably 'sort -u' would do most of the work?
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I tried to find out how many riders have done a 400k. Failed.
The old site had a way but the new site doesn't.
Presumably 'sort -u' would do most of the work?
Not really, I wanted to remove everyone who'd done a ride longer than a 400.
Only looking at BRM rides makes it tricky too. The non-BRM rides won't count for people wanting to pre-register.
The only way I could think about doing it was wget'ing all of the results pages for every BRM event last year and parsing them and assigning maximum BRM distance ridden to each membership number found. Then sorting that...
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Presumably 'sort -u' would do most of the work?
<snip>
The only way I could think about doing it was wget'ing all of the results pages for every BRM event last year and parsing them and assigning maximum BRM distance ridden to each membership number found. Then sorting that...
That was more-or-less what I was thinking of. My use of the word "most" may have been optimistic.
[All BRMs? I think you can ignore <400k, if that helps. If it was me, I'd just look at 600s and 400s, because almost everyone riding a 1000k+ also rides a 600. Probably ... ]
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Apparently 133 UK places left as at 15th May
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I'm hoping one of them might end up being mine!
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Apparently 133 UK places left as at 15th May
is that after the riders who did at least a 400 in 2010 have pre-entered?
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Apparently 133 UK places left as at 15th May
is that after the riders who did at least a 400 in 2010 have pre-entered?
Well yes, sort-of .... pre-entries started for the 300k/2010 rabble yesterday. But of course there might still be "400k/2010" riders who are delaying entry, e.g. until riding their 2011-400 to assess fitness, etc ...
[I know I left mine weeks after I could have registered, having seen how slowly places were going.]
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I am faced with a mahoosive (well actually more expensive) dilemma.
I should have seen this coming but hadn't realised the significance of it.
I have had an email from SportsTours asking for the remaining balance by 26th May.
I'm new to Audax and cycling in general (bought my first bike exactly a year ago yesterday!) and the only 200k Audax I rode last year wasn't BRM.
Ergo I cannot pre-register at all and have to wait for 11th June.
The question is, do I gamble £500 on being able to actually get a place on PBP? The odds are not looking very good :-\
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SportsTours want £500 before you can even enter?
£500 is going to cover petrol, accom, ferry and beer for me, and I get to travel when I want.
Could you find someone you can get a lift over with, logistics to be booked after you've entered?
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Tell 'em you will definitely take a place once you've qualified.
They need you more than you need them..
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Baxter's are pretty understanding. Give them a ring.
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Tell 'em you will definitely take a place once you've qualified.
They need you more than you need them..
Actually yeah you have a point, it could be they don't realise the significance of their deadline. I will email them and explain. It doesn't seem reasonable to ask for full payment when the tour is for a specific event I can't even know if I can enter yet does it?
SportsTours want £500 before you can even enter?
£500 is going to cover petrol, accom, ferry and beer for me, and I get to travel when I want.
Could you find someone you can get a lift over with, logistics to be booked after you've entered?
I could have ridden or driven over, but I was concerned about riding back after the event, and about where I could leave my car for that length of time. The bag drop in 2 places with the coach was the final deciding factor, this is my first time (if I can enter it!) and not knowing the ropes it just seems so much easier to go with the package.
I will be leaving my kids, dogs and cats with my parents and they live 5 miles from the NEC in Birmingham which is one of the places the coach picks up from, so I can have my dad drive me, bike and luggage there in my own car. The logistics of delivering all my resident life-forms to the midlands and then getting to a port and parking etc. seemed much more complicated. Not having anywhere safe to leave stuff during the ride would also have been a problem, god forbid anyone should nick my hair dryer out of my tent etc.!!
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Holy carp I have just realised something else.
Registration for all opens on 11th June.
On the night of the 10th of June I will be camping in a field ready for a crack of dawn alarm to ride the Seething 600k at 6am.
I won't have access to a computer to register until I get back home on the night of 12th :facepalm:
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Have someone else do it for you?
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Have someone else do it for you?
This is certainly my plan - I don't think I can rely on 3G-ness happenning in Norfolk, so I will have someone register for me on the 11th.
One less stress to deal with for sure.
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Have someone else do it for you?
Yeah I think that's what I will have to do. Problem is my son will probably mess it up (he has been trying for 3 months to apply for his driving licence on line and seems incapable of pulling this off, he is 17 :facepalm: )
I have various friends who are not computer savy enough to do it because it will require fighting against a massive bandwidth competition the second it opens I imagine. Unless it was someone who understands the system and audax I expect the process could fox them even if I provided them with every imaginable bit of info that could be needed. Bugger.
Why the f**k do they have to open registration on a bloody weekend day when people are out riding qualifiers ???
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I guess my friend really wants to know whether it's first come first served on June 11th, and then what is the process beyond that point to fully register?
AIUI, yes it is, from that point, but presumably the national quotas will still be in place at that point too, so if you your friend is a UK rider, general opinion is that the UK are unlikely fill their quota so there's no need to rush.
Also AIUI, you'll only need to know your 2,3, 400 qualifying brevets at that time - you can enter using these - you will need a 600 as well but ACP will fill in the details against your name when they get them.
[edit - crosspost with jwo ]
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Have someone else do it for you?
Yeah I think that's what I will have to do. Problem is my son will probably mess it up (he has been trying for 3 months to apply for his driving licence on line and seems incapable of pulling this off, he is 17 :facepalm: )
I have various friends who are not computer savy enough to do it because it will require fighting against a massive bandwidth competition the second it opens I imagine. Unless it was someone who understands the system and audax I expect the process could fox them even if I provided them with every imaginable bit of info that could be needed. Bugger.
Why the f**k do they have to open registration on a bloody weekend day when people are out riding qualifiers ???
Plenty people on here who could manage to do it, though. Just ask a friendly forumite to do it for you.
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116 places remaining.
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Tell 'em you will definitely take a place once you've qualified.
They need you more than you need them..
Agreed. Don't pay them on the expectation of qualifying. I was unable to ride in 2007 but had part-paid for my trip. Despite numerous emails (from a Mr Baxter himself, no less) telling me that a refund cheque was in the post / had been sent / was about to be sent, nothing was ever received.
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Tell 'em you will definitely take a place once you've qualified.
They need you more than you need them..
Agreed. Don't pay them on the expectation of qualifying. I was unable to ride in 2007 but had part-paid for my trip. Despite numerous emails (from a Mr Baxter himself, no less) telling me that a refund cheque was in the post / had been sent / was about to be sent, nothing was ever received.
Thanks for this.
I have emailed them saying that I am really committed to travel with them and my qualifiers are going well but as a single parent I can't gamble that amount of money on the chance that I will get a place when this isn't under my control. They haven't replied to me yet ... it's been 2 days :(
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They haven't replied to me yet ... it's been 2 days :(
That's a bit shoddy. If I was in your position I'd hold off paying the balance until you qualify and are are registered for the ride. If Baxters accept your late payment at that stage then fine. If not, do as I and many others are doing and get the Eurostar over (£69 return) and spend the balance on hotels (in your case that would pay for some nice ones :thumbsup:).
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They haven't replied to me yet ... it's been 2 days :(
That's a bit shoddy. If I was in your position I'd hold off paying the balance until you qualify and are are registered for the ride. If Baxters accept your late payment at that stage then fine. If not, do as I and many others are doing and get the Eurostar over (£69 return) and spend the balance on hotels (in your case that would pay for some nice ones :thumbsup:).
Yeah, good plan. I already have a hotel nice and near the start booked which I haven't yet cancelled so I will keep that booking just in case :thumbsup:
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Eurostars £69 return looks very tempting.
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Holy carp I have just realised something else.
Registration for all opens on 11th June.
On the night of the 10th of June I will be camping in a field ready for a crack of dawn alarm to ride the Seething 600k at 6am.
I won't have access to a computer to register until I get back home on the night of 12th :facepalm:
June 20, 2011 : Preregistrations are cancelled and the reserved places are released.
I would imagine that even if they all disappear on the 11th there will be some more available on 20th. Rammy's, for example. The elders of this parish have been saying all along that they think anyone who wants a place will get one.
£500 is going to cover petrol, accom, ferry and beer for me, and I get to travel when I want.
£500 should cover my beer and coffee, hopefully. I'd hate to have to go without coffee.
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Holy carp I have just realised something else.
Registration for all opens on 11th June.
On the night of the 10th of June I will be camping in a field ready for a crack of dawn alarm to ride the Seething 600k at 6am.
I won't have access to a computer to register until I get back home on the night of 12th :facepalm:
June 20, 2011 : Preregistrations are cancelled and the reserved places are released.
I would imagine that even if they all disappear on the 11th there will be some more available on 20th. Rammy's, for example. The elders of this parish have been saying all along that they think anyone who wants a place will get one.
£500 is going to cover petrol, accom, ferry and beer for me, and I get to travel when I want.
£500 should cover my beer and coffee, hopefully. I'd hate to have to go without coffee.
Yeah, I know a lot of people who know loads about this have been saying there will be space, but SportsTours are actually asking me to gamble hard cash on that ... and I just feel like I don't want to do that. It will be bad enough not being able to ride PBP even though I did qualify without being £600 out of pocket as well :(
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From where you are, you can also take the train to Portsmouth and take a ferry to Caen. That will be much better than crossing all Northern France in a coach Paris is much much closer to Caen than to Calais.
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From where you are, you can also take the train to Portsmouth and take a ferry to Caen. That will be much better than crossing all Northern France in a coach Paris is much much closer to Caen than to Calais.
I think if I don't end up doing the Baxters thing I would like to join Teethgrinder's ride from Milton Keynes plans ;D
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Tell 'em you will definitely take a place once you've qualified.
They need you more than you need them..
Sound advice from Tewdric.
Stop worrying, get qualified, don't pay Baxters if you don't want to take the risk and if in the meantime they have completely filled their coaches up you'll have to find another way.
Honorary MTFU. If you can go from stabilisers to PBP in a year you can sort this one out. ;) You'll be fine.
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Tell 'em you will definitely take a place once you've qualified.
They need you more than you need them..
Sound advice from Tewdric.
Stop worrying, get qualified, don't pay Baxters if you don't want to take the risk and if in the meantime they have completely filled their coaches up you'll have to find another way.
Honorary MTFU. If you can go from stabilisers to PBP in a year you can sort this one out. ;) You'll be fine.
Yeah I know, I'm panicking :facepalm:
I need to take a chill pill and just get on with the riding ;D
I just like to be organised in advance with stuff like this because I've got a house full of kids, dogs and cats I've got to sort out while I'm away and my mother is demanding to know my transport plans and dates and stuff :facepalm:
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Come, come to Portsmouth and join us at the pre-sailing soiree in the Fox & Hounds.
H
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Tell 'em you will definitely take a place once you've qualified.
They need you more than you need them..
Sound advice from Tewdric.
Stop worrying, get qualified, don't pay Baxters if you don't want to take the risk and if in the meantime they have completely filled their coaches up you'll have to find another way.
Honorary MTFU. If you can go from stabilisers to PBP in a year you can sort this one out. ;) You'll be fine.
Yeah I know, I'm panicking :facepalm:
I need to take a chill pill and just get on with the riding ;D
I just like to be organised in advance with stuff like this because I've got a house full of kids, dogs and cats I've got to sort out while I'm away and my mother is demanding to know my transport plans and dates and stuff :facepalm:
You'll be fine, still 95 places. I would have thought if there was going to be a rush from people who'd done a 200 last year it would have happened by now.
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You'll be fine, still 95 places. I would have thought if there was going to be a rush from people who'd done a 200 last year it would have happened by now.
Some have been doing their qualifying 600 this weekend (and/or next weekend) and will be entering during the week.
I may have talked one person into doing it...
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After the 300s were allowed to preregister there wasn't much change after the first day or two after that weekend.
April 18: 244 spaces
May 15: 133
May 18: 116
May 29: 98
May 30: 95
There was no massive drop after the Bryan Chapman weekend. In the last 12 days only 21 people have pre-registered, a small percentage of the people who completed a 200 or 300 last year. Whilst nothing is guaranteed, nothing here changes my view that everyone who qualifies will get a place.
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April 18: 244 spaces
May 15: 133
May 18: 116
May 29: 98
May 30: 95
Simon, are you sure you are not a statistician ? :P
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No, just a nerd.
There are now 91 places. 2 per day averaged over the last 2 weeks. After the 400s the rate of drop has been much lower. If that continues for the next 10 days, there will be 70 places for n00bs come the 11th, minus some unknown number who haven't bothered to preregister despite having gone
to the effort of pre qualifying.
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I am in the process of registering for PBP. Do I enter as Audax Ecosse rider? There's nae Audax UK option.
Tobias
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Doh, found it. A.U.K.
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58 places left last night, down to 48 today.
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58 places left last night, down to 48 today.
shhhhhh - don't let my girlfriend find this out! She stayed up late on Friday, gave up when the website still was undergoing 'maintenance' and sorted it all Saturday morning.
All the people that said don't worry about it were completely right of course - but it's hard not to stress about these things when you're putting a load of effort in riding the qualifiers for the first time.
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Indeed. I completely understand the stress people who could not preregister. It's much easier to view it with detachment when your own place is already reserved.
The reason to get a friend to register for you is to take that stress away and let u concentrate on the ride. That worked didn't it?
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Indeed. I completely understand the stress people who could not preregister. It's much easier to view it with detachment when your own place is already reserved.
The reason to get a friend to register for you is to take that stress away and let u concentrate on the ride. That worked didn't it?
Yebbut if ur the friend doing it then it can cost u most of a night's sleep can't it? ;)
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The AUK results list looks a bit odd at the moment (given that the PBP qualifiers have been given priority through the validation process)...
11-474 Exeter 600 28 May 13
11-502 Didcot Parkway 407 28 May 21
11-435 Waltham Abbey 620 28 May 40
11-66 Poynton 400 28 May 19
11-389 Edinburgh 604 28 May 34
11-932 Tranwell 400 28 May 3
11-401 Clayhidon 413 03 Jun 28
11-665 Denmead 600 04 Jun 16
11-321 Upton Magna 605 04 Jun 6
11-220 Hazel Grove 600 04 Jun 36
11-45 Upton Magna 605 04 Jun 8
11-46 Upton Magna 220 05 Jun 15
11-940 Alltwen 600 11 Jun 26
11-160 Seething 600 11 Jun 39
11-929 Aldbrough St John 602 11 Jun 14
11-159 Corstorphine 604 11 Jun 13
11-234 Derby 605 11 Jun 17
11-251 Sevenoaks Weald 600 11 Jun 18
OS600 Overseas 600 12 Jun 1
11-67 Hazel Grove 600 15 Jun 11
One 200 amongst a sea of 400s and 600s. :)
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Apologies, I've not been following this very closely.
The PBP website shows 1310 spaces remaining. It's now open entry, isn't it? And the qualifying period is now largely over.
So does this mean that PBP is likely to have, say, 1,000 spare places?
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So does this mean that PBP is likely to have, say, 1,000 spare places?
1000 places for those who've been asleep last year (and that are a lot of people).
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Entries are still trickling in. Not everyone is rushing back from their qualifiers to fill in the form as soon as possible.
Down to 1265 places remaining.
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1265 places? Well there's no need is there.
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Entries are still trickling in. Not everyone is rushing back from their qualifiers to fill in the form as soon as possible.
Down to 1265 places remaining.
And as soon as July 1st arrives then the non-pre-registered will be entering. So we may see a big jump in numbers.
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Entries are still trickling in. Not everyone is rushing back from their qualifiers to fill in the form as soon as possible.
Down to 1265 places remaining.
And as soon as July 1st arrives then the non-pre-registered will be entering. So we may see a big jump in numbers.
Entry has been available since June 11th for non-pre-registered riders.
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Entries are still trickling in. Not everyone is rushing back from their qualifiers to fill in the form as soon as possible.
Down to 1265 places remaining.
And as soon as July 1st arrives then the non-pre-registered will be entering. So we may see a big jump in numbers.
Entry has been available since June 11th for non-pre-registered riders.
Not preregistered UFOLEP/FSGT members only get to register from 1st July, but these will be French riders only. International riders who didn't pre-register could enter from June 11th.
Paris-Brest-Paris 2011 (http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/pbp2011/index2.php?lang=en&cat=inscription&page=comment_sinscrire2)
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If my registration is still "complete, awaiting processing", is there any way to change my start group?
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If my registration is still "complete, awaiting processing", is there any way to change my start group?
You might get something if you send a polite request by email to the inscriptionn at paris-brest-paris.org address that sent you your confirmation...
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...and it's been changed. Bike check at 16:15 Saturday, depart at 16:00 Sunday.