Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Freewheeling => Topic started by: TheLurker on 20 February, 2009, 10:45:13 am
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I know some of you ignore Pub/Politics, but you still might be interested in this.
New trains (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=15201.msg281502#msg281502)
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Further e-mail. Not much more useful info, but a link to the train specification used by Agility.
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From: enquiries@agilitytrains.com
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
enquiries@agilitytrains.com
Dear Sir/Madam,
Thank you very much for contacting the Agility Trains Consortium and for your interest in the recent announcement that Agility Trains is the preferred bidder for the Intercity Express Programme (IEP).
The Hitachi Super Express train concept design, that formed the central part of our bid, has been optimised to provide the best overall whole-life value-for-money for the UK railway and to comply with the Train Technical Specification published by the DfT. As specified, many of the internal features of the train are designed to be customised by the Train Operating Companies, to best meet the requirements of their franchise and their passengers. This includes features like seat pitch, the number of tables verses the number of airline style seats, the number of toilets, the bicycle storage capacity and the catering facilities. The Hitachi Super Express train complies with the Train Technical Specification, to the extent that all these features are available for the Train Operating Companies to select. Agility Trains will be engaging with the Train Operating Companies in the coming months to finalise the train specification for each of the routes and more details will be released as they are agreed.
The Train Technical Specification is available to download from the DfT website: Department for Transport - Intercity Express Programme (http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/iep)
Please accept my apologies for not being able to provide you a more specific answer at this stage, but we would ask you to be patient. The announcement last week was just our selection as preferred bidder and we expect it will take several months to finalise the contract negotiations.
Kind regards,
Alistair Dormer
Chief Executive Officer
Agility Trains
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BBC article about the new trains (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31831603).
Still no info on whether cycle carrying capacity will be maintained in comparison with the Intercity 125, or whether it'll be more like the hated Adalante (glorified turbo with very squeaky brakes), where there are limited hanging spaces.
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No point having flashy trains till the entire network is upgraded to have higher speed limits. So they won't do this and buy trains that has the same speed limits. I can't help feel that the network upgrading should take place first.
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I was one of the CTC group of cyclists who tested the bike spaces on the IEP prototype. The train design is modular, with slot-in units in the vestibule area chosen by the individual TOCs that provide toilets, bike space, catering storage, etc.
The bike space module is a dangly space that (handlebars permitting) accommodates two bikes. It fits my Streetmachine (1.9m long) without trouble, and will just about take a tandem if you remove both wheels and play advanced tetris with the bits. It's marginally less annoying than the space on CrossCountry Voyagers, as you have access to the space from two sides. Closest equivalent I've come across in real life is the bike space on Virgin Voyagers. During testing, we suggested refinements to the hook system that might reduce handlebar clashes, but I've no idea if anything came of that. (I also got in an extensive dig about cyclists with disabilities, and that hanging spaces discriminate against short people, particularly women and children.)
TOCs get to decide how many of these modules are fitted to their trains, so there isn't a fixed answer to bike capacity, but it's clearly a retrograde step compared to the HSTs.
The IEP luggage racks are apparently sized to take an integer number (I forget what) of Bromptons.
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HSTs only take 6 and on summer mornings they are full going out of London - you really have to book, although the booking system isn't enforced at all stations so if someone has sneaked an extra bike on at Paddington you might be SOL at Didcot Parkway unless you locate the offending bike and sling it out :demon:. I remember when you could fit a practically unlimited number in the guard's compartment on most trains but, since the railway stopped being a major parcels carrier, guard's compartments are gone.
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but, since the railway stopped being a major parcels carrier, guard's compartments are gone.
Except Liverpool Street to Norwich and East Coast Main Line.
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I remember riding to Cheltenham from Stroud sometime in the 80s, getting caught in an almighty thunderstorm and deciding to take the train home. Went to the guard's van to get my bike and... it wasn't there! Two other bikes were, but not mine. Panic! "Yours is in the other van," said the guard. Yes, two guards vans on one small train.
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I do not think that you have much chance of getting a trice in the new train's so if I want to do a ride in/from Cornwall it will probably have to be next year .
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I do not think that you have much chance of getting a trice in the new train's so if I want to do a ride in/from Cornwall it will probably have to be next year .
It was a while ago now, but you might just get one in folded, on its side, preferably bagged, and without another bike sharing the space. But it'll doubtlessly fall foul of TOC cycle policy, so I agree with that assessment. :(
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Kim, is the bike storage on these new trains such that I can sneak a bike on and then deal with the guard later if they object to my travelling without a reservation, a la Voyager, or is it such that I have to locate a compliant member of train staff and persuade them to let me on - when they may be absent whether or not I've got a reservation - a la the current ECML stock?
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Kim, is the bike storage on these new trains such that I can sneak a bike on and then deal with the guard later if they object to my travelling without a reservation, a la Voyager, or is it such that I have to locate a compliant member of train staff and persuade them to let me on - when they may be absent whether or not I've got a reservation - a la the current ECML stock?
The bike space is in the vestibule, like on a Voyager. I expect it'll attract Luggages and bin bags, like on a Voyager.
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Thanks :thumbsup:
I quite like Voyagers, for the reasons I just stated. Even when they were Virgin and I theoretically had to get a reservation (as opposed to XC's 2 reservations plus one free space, for which 'I'm Spartacus'), they were the easiest for me plus a standard bike. I can see them being less good than the old stock for anyone on a tandem, downwrong or triceratops though.
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Thanks :thumbsup:
I quite like Voyagers, for the reasons I just stated. Even when they were Virgin and I theoretically had to get a reservation (as opposed to XC's 2 reservations plus one free space, for which 'I'm Spartacus'), they were the easiest for me plus a standard bike. I can see them being less good than the old stock for anyone on a tandem, downwrong or triceratops though.
Downwrongs are fine, unless particularly low or configured for a rider of Larringtonian proportions without the aid of quick releases. Trikes and tandems are forbidden by policy on CrossCountry, irrespective of how they fit. It's mountain bikes[1] and city bikes that are the real problem, on account of the extra-wide handlebars. Turn up with your reservation to find someone's put one of those in the double-hanger and you're stuffed.
[1] Have you seen the width of modern MTB bars? Bonkers.
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Such things could perhaps be sorted by a requirement to turn your handlebars through 90 deg, if only everyone could be relied on to have the right allen key!
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Such things could perhaps be sorted by a requirement to turn your handlebars through 90 deg, if only everyone could be relied on to have the right allen key!
I'd say that's as unreasonable as expecting someone to remove their mudguards for a group ride. These things are safety-critical, and requiring non-expert users to fettle them mid journey is objectionable on general principle, and a barrier to cycle use. The CTC recently launched a successful campaign against Eurostar requiring just this sort of thing.
Which isn't to say that it's a bad idea if you're a technically competent cyclist with a wide-barred bike, but it does add to the faff of loading and unloading.
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Recently I happened to see (in a non-geeky way, honestly!) a British Rail training video from the late '70s. The idea of the video was telling customer-facing staff (long before railways had customers or any staff were described as anything-facing, of course) not to be grumpy (insert quip about the 1970s, nationalised industries and Soviet tendencies) but it happened to show a member of staff (a porter? did they still have official porters then?) pushing a trolley loaded with suitcases. A huge trolley like the things that get loaded on to planes. Which I think shows us both how passengers are expected to take control of their own luggage much more than they were and how there is less space for that luggage: no dedicated luggage coaches now. But people are (threads passim) flabbier and probably take more stuff with them (because we have more stuff!). Thus suitcases in bike areas.
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You can still book assistance and (presumably) have them fail to turn up[1] to help you with your bags, if necessary, but the demise of trolleys (and corresponding rise of wheeled Luggages and unfolded pushchairs) is suboptimal.
And while British Rail were mostly interested in running a train set, the current TOCs are mostly interested in commuters. So luggage space is an afterthought.
[1] They don't turn up reliably for blind people or wheelchair users, so I don't see why they'd be any different for someone unable to carry their bags.
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With a lot of stations being unstaffed now, I'd imagine booking assistance for anything could be rather tricky.
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With a lot of stations being unstaffed now, I'd imagine booking assistance for anything could be rather tricky.
It's usually not too bad.
Terminals in That London have designated places and train staff can be advised in advance. Trains are not (yet) unstaffed.
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Some are driver only, or so I've heard, I haven't been on one like that. I'm not sure what happens if you turn up at an unstaffed station needing assistance and the train is driver-only.
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If you book assistance in advance the train staff SHOULD know of your needs before arriving at the station.
At least the Heart of Wales line is not driver only and we use this most years.
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Recently I happened to see (in a non-geeky way, honestly!) a British Rail training video from the late '70s. The idea of the video was telling customer-facing staff (long before railways had customers or any staff were described as anything-facing, of course) not to be grumpy (insert quip about the 1970s, nationalised industries and Soviet tendencies) but it happened to show a member of staff (a porter? did they still have official porters then?) pushing a trolley loaded with suitcases. A huge trolley like the things that get loaded on to planes. Which I think shows us both how passengers are expected to take control of their own luggage much more than they were and how there is less space for that luggage: no dedicated luggage coaches now. But people are (threads passim) flabbier and probably take more stuff with them (because we have more stuff!). Thus suitcases in bike areas.
When my Mum went up to University, which would have been late 50's, her railway ticket included collecting her trunk from the house, putting it in the guard's van, and delivering it to the Halls at the other end, while she made the connections by tram and bus.
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It's a well-used service in Japan, provided by companies independent of the railway companies, to send luggage separately, including bikes. As well as for train journeys, also used for journeys to and from airports. Probably by road transport, and very fast and reliable at reasonable cost.
Only foreigners are seen struggling with heavy luggage!
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Judging by the Shite Courier thread, I wonder how well that would work here!
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Last time I looked, it cost a tenner plus taxes to send a bike by courier. Certainly, it's what I'd do if off on hols etc.
I'm not convinced by the argument for non-folding bikes on trains. They take up space. Space that could carry passengers. The TOCs really ought to charge for bikes - it feels antisocial to expect a freebie.
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I'm inclined to agree, tbh. I'd much rather pay for a bike ticket, assuming of course that that came with the expectation that the TOC would actually make an effort transport your bike. Which is probably why they don't do it.
On some high speed trains (including but not limited to HSTs), there are areas that can't be used for passengers, because they're supposed to be a crumple zone. Putting bikes in some of them makes sense.
Couriering makes sense if you don't need to use the bike (or anything you're using it to carry) immediately at your destination. Not so good for multi-modal journeys or day rides.
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As it happens, I was thinking more or less the same earlier today as I rode up to Earthcott Green (it's a real place!). The trouble would be setting the charge at a level that seemed reasonable to passengers and worth collecting to TOCs. What seems reasonable will vary according to journey obviously and personal perception but also, I think, train type. Paying for a space in an HST or Voyager seems, to me at least, more reasonable than in a little train with flip-up seats or a space in the corridor just because it is a proper, designated bike space. Even if it's crap, as in a Voyager.
It also occurred to me that the "ideal" might be the resurrection of something like Red Star (but with a better name) to give trains guard vans and a use for them. GWR recently started carrying fresh oysters (or some other sort of sea creature) from Cornwall to London. That service uses an HST and they still have a guard's van (and separate bike space).
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There's also the question of luggage. Would charging for bikes be seen as a slippery slope to charging for suitcases, airline style?
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There's also the question of luggage. Would charging for bikes be seen as a slippery slope to charging for suitcases, airline style?
Quite possibly.
Again, you could argue in favour, as it might encourage TOCs to think about luggage space (and passengers to think about the size of their bags - which would reasonably be measured by volume rather than mass).
Also, charging for pushchairs. Presumably those would have a more complicated tariff structure, where volume (litres) is multiplied by volume (decibels).
On the gripping hand, the one thing the UK doesn't need is a more complicated system for train fares.
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You could. But there's also the danger of pricing people into thinking "It's so much simpler just to drive there." Or even take the bus.
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You could. But there's also the danger of pricing people into thinking "It's so much simpler just to drive there." Or even take the bus.
Indeed. That already happens, of course.
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Also, as Brian Bear and Fleazy Jet have shown, charge for one sort of luggage and people just take more of the other. Hard to see how you'd actually enforce a "suitcase ticket" on a train.
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I believe it's about capacity, largely. Capacity (of trains) is reduced with fewer seats. Capacity of the line is reduced with a guards van since entraining and detraining (I think those are the appropriate jargon junk terms) take longer. A guards van most likely also costs more in staffing. Plus at small stations like Stonehouse, Gloucs, reduces further the platform capacity for passengers, thus slowing the "Station Stop" even more...
I don't think the 125 carriage ends were designed as crumple zones. More modern designs may well have that. Although a crumple zone full of bikes, crumpled, would make for difficult egress after a crash.
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I don't think the 125 carriage ends were designed as crumple zones.
Probably not, but I don't think they're allowed to fill them with seats. Otherwise someone would likely have filled them with seats.
The point is that it's not an egress route for anyone other than the driver.
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Prior to 1977, British rail charged passengers a Child's Fare (usually half the full adult fare) for a bicycle.
It seemed steep but reasonable at the time, though I really did admire the CTC for getting free cycle carriage for the Silver Jubilee.
Trains were rather different then; I misspent much of my youth in guards' vans. O one journey, I travelled with an unfortunate woman in a wheelchair; there was nowhere else on the train for it. On another trip there was a rather nice black Avatar 2000 recumbent...
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I don't think the 125 carriage ends were designed as crumple zones. More modern designs may well have that. Although a crumple zone full of bikes, crumpled, would make for difficult egress after a crash.
Is Kim talking about the carriage ends? I thought she was referring to the guard's van/space behind the engine in the "driving van trailer" (another jargon junk term).
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Yeah, specifically the business end of a the power car. That's a whole unit on a HST, but just the bit behind the cab on a Pendolino or Voyager.
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https://twitter.com/maidstoneonbike/status/645308785532211200/photo/1
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What exactly was the problem there? I scanned the tweet but couldn't see whether it was bar width, too heavy to lift or something else.
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I'm guessing the bar width, though I can't imagine it's much fun to lift.
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The CTC recently launched a successful campaign against Eurostar requiring just this sort of thing.
Evidently a little bit too successful:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36820751
:facepalm:
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–Yeah but it doesn't matter cos there are never any disabled passengers anyway.
–Why's that?
–Because we haven't got the facilities for them.
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It follows the introduction of new trains which do not have goods carriages for bike storage.
There was a lot of good in train parcels services. Even without parcels. Mind you, if they still had parcel vans, I dare say we'd be hearing of wheelchair passengers being "seated" in the goods van. :facepalm:
The use of a disabled toilet as alternative cycle storage was "appalling", one member of train crew who spoke to BBC News anonymously said.
"The company has caved in to the bike lobby. This sends a terrible message to disabled passengers."
Make it into a conflict... :hand:
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Quite.
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Bike in a Eurostar toilet
(http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/5A0C/production/_90425032_bikeintoilet.jpg)
From http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36820751
Elsewhere on the world wide wobble I read that "The German IC DVTs have around 30 reservable bike spaces." DVT = driving van trailer, ie the guard's van space at one end of a train like a Eurostar or HST 125. I can't vouch for the accuracy of the number though.
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It seemed steep but reasonable at the time, though I really did admire the CTC for getting free cycle carriage for the Silver Jubilee.
Wasn't that the campaign where the BR marketing department signed up to free carriage just when the engineering department were introducing trains that didn't have the space to support the response?
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I don't know. It was 1977..
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At 9:31 in this geekeo you get a very quick sight of the cycle capacity of the IEPs.
https://youtu.be/Ovs-I6VnTPg?t=9m31s
It's dangly type but with a separator to prevent bikes swaying into each other. It will, of course, normally be full of suitcases.
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At 9:31 in this geekeo you get a very quick sight of the cycle capacity of the IEPs.
https://youtu.be/Ovs-I6VnTPg?t=9m31s
It's dangly type but with a separator to prevent bikes swaying into each other.
The idea is that you can lock your bike to the separator to prevent casual theft. The separator itself acts as a carriage-key-operated D-lock so that staff (or suitably equipped criminals) can remove locked bikes as needed.
It will, of course, normally be full of suitcases.
The fold-down luggage shelf wasn't present on the mock-up I tested. I expect we'll get people sitting on that, too.
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You didn't watch it, Kim! The sign says "Do not lock cycles to separators".
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You didn't watch it, Kim! The sign says "Do not lock cycles to separators".
I did, but I didn't get time to read all the text.
So it does. I wonder what that's about. Is the separator no longer unlockable, or staff not wanting the hassle?
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The separator is clearly movable by passengers, at a guess it might be that if an outer bike is locked to the separator, the inner one cannot be removed.
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That makes sense. The design is a bit more open than the rubbish on CrossCountry's Voyagers, where - on the rare occasions that two compatibly-handlebared bikes occupy the double space - you usually to need to remove one bike to get at the other. But it's always going to depend on the bikes themselves, and the height/strength of the person trying to lift them.
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Yes, it's an inherently compromised storage method.
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One other point about these trains: atm they're using 2 sets of 5-car trains back to back to make 10 carriages per train, with 1st class in the middle. This means there is bike space at both ends – I think – but that won't be the case when the 9-car sets come into service, some time in the future (but they'll have the same number of seats, due to having only one kitchen area).
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Yes, it's an inherently compromised storage method.
Think of it from the train companies point of view, it is an inherently optimised method as it uses the least footprint in the restricted plan area of a train thereby allowing the greatest number of seats.
We might look at it and claim that it is ablist as you have to be sufficiently string to get the bike up and other associated compromises but how many train miles are done with no bikes on board?*
* Yes I know this can be a self fulfilling metric.
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Obviously, and so it also makes sense for TOCs to use bike space for luggages. As for the number of journeys without bikes on board, I reckon there's great variation from route to route and also time to time. XC from Birmingham to Bristol on a Saturday or Sunday I have never seen less than 3 bikes on board (they have 3 spaces)!
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Yes, TOCs hate bikes. And luggage. Anything that's not able-bodied commuters is an inconvenience to them.
I'd be in favour of paying for cycle reservations, if it improved the general attitude to bikes.
Sure, many trains travel without any bikes on board. But many trains travel with only a tiny proportion of seats filled. It's the nature of peak demand.
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Yes, TOCs hate bikes. And luggage. Anything that's not able-bodied commuters is an inconvenience to them.
I'd be in favour of paying for cycle reservations, if it improved the general attitude to bikes.
I'd happily pay for cycle carriage [not just the reservation]. This is what happens on every continental* train I've used.
Why do we need a different, crappier approach in the UK? Does the Min-of-T know something the Yooropeans don't about integrated transport? ::-)
[*The Swiss charge about a million pounds, but it was a very scenic trip :) ]
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Yes, TOCs hate bikes. And luggage. Anything that's not able-bodied commuters is an inconvenience to them.
I'm sure they'd rather the commuters didn't take up space either ;D ;D ;D
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Yeah, specifically the business end of a the power car. That's a whole unit on a HST, but just the bit behind the cab on a Pendolino or Voyager.
I think that was designed in for parcels and mail neither of which have gone by rail for years sadly hence no need in new train design.
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....On some high speed trains (including but not limited to HSTs), there are areas that can't be used for passengers, because they're supposed to be a crumple zone....
I think for a while passenger space wasn't allowed in a Driving van Trailer above a certain speed , but the rule was dropped.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving_Van_Trailer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving_Van_Trailer)