Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Audax => Topic started by: Martin on 01 March, 2009, 08:15:35 pm
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This post was inspired by my experience today. As many of you you know I run a hilly 100km around (names changed to protect the innocent) which attracts a loyal and healthy clientelle but never rises above about 75 entrants. I offered to help man a marshalling point on my club's 25 TT today, and subsequently found out from the TT organiser that there was a sportive in the similar area on the same day (the only way I would have known). I checked the link to find that the sportive was more or less a carbon copy of my own event minus a few of the steeper hills; but was waymarked, offered the usual liquid / solid cyclist fuel that we obviously don't know about had a £20 entry fee and had a very slick website to match.
I noticed quite a few of the waymarks around whilst out and about yesterday and today (and very professional they were too complete with little signs before the tricky turns).
On the way back from the TT I decided to ride the reverse of the sportive course just to see who was riding this rather expensive event. I saw literally hundreds of riders all packing very serious kit; all having a great time and all riding flawlessly.
I saw precisely two people of the (full) 300 rider field I knew; the first was lidless so probably not part of the event and the second just happened to have crossed the event's path whilst also out and about and was just following the others.
The long and short of this is that IMO Audax is failing dismally to attract this very eager market at this sort of distance and we need to do something to prevent AUK events like this vanishing completely
Today was a real eye opener for me.
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I have puzzled about this one for a while.
I don't hold any political views about the relative merits of Audax and Sportives but I do wonder why the latter attract a type of ride you don't see in large numbers on Audaxes.
It could be the signage thing - but then again it took me 5 seconds to master an Audax routesheet and never thought it difficult.
It could be the timing thing and medals perhaps...
My pet theory is that it is to do with image.
Last September I went to buy a carbon bike in a very trendy shop that clearly catered for the triathlete/serious roadie market and when I said I might use the bike on an Audax I was told by the very genuine and otherwise well-informed assistant that I couldn't because you couldn't get mudguards on the frame. There followed quite a lot of harmless banter about flapjacks etc. Although they meant no harm I got the distinct feeling that my hobby wasn't really very cool - men my age will recognise the syndrome when I compare it to buying your first pair of jeans when you were 15 or plucking up the courage to buy your first LP!
I set the guy straight (he might be able to walk again soon) and he was actually quite interested once I'd explained a few things and talked up the 'endurance blah blah, mind against the elements blah blah, heroic endeavor' sort of stuff.
But he must get the idea from somewhere. Perhaps it is in cycling mags like the one I bought last August because its cover promised a feature on Audax bikes. Inside was an article banging on about the joy of cake and three bike reviews (machines with 'Audax' in their names) which kept mentioning mudguard clearance... and cakes.
There's probably a whole discussion to be had about whether we want to change the image and keep the SR challenge as the best kept secret in cycling. However, I like the relaxed feel to Audax events, the idea that someone has given up their time for free for my enjoyment, the friendliness of the people you ride with and I'd love to share it with more people.
As someone who has worked in PR and communications for quite a few years I'm sure there is much that could be done if we put our minds to it.
Liam
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Liam; could not agree more with your post. Image and marketing is everything. BTW the Bronze standard on the ride today would have been missed by about half the participants on my event. Although of course they would all have been completely wet on if it were a serious road race.
A local club has been religously riding all the local 100km Audaxes (including the Grimpeurs) since the end of last year's TT season. I suggested that the logical step was to move up El Supremo's first 200 this weekend and got the sound of tumbleweed.
I suppose it could also be argued that the riders I saw today have nothing to do with AUK and we can all carry on living separate lives with no harm done.
(edit; Stan, most of the local events are El Supremo catering or a similar version so involve no cafes; in fact not putting your hands in your pockets for anything except the brevet card all day)
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This is something of a pet subject of mine. And, come the end of May I hope to be able to give the low down on the pluses and minuses of turning an audax into a cyclosport.
For me, the advantages of a cyclosport are route marking and feed stations. I need glasses to read a route sheet so a nice big arrow makes life so much easier. And I've never been one for messing about in cafes.
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As a thus far non- combatant please permit me a few ramblings in the hope it might help.
Putting my 'man on the Clapham Omnibus' hat on I can well understand the perception that Audax has something of the Middle Earth about it. Whilst obvious to the regulars, all the talk of perms, DIYs, getting till receipts from petrol stations etc could be perceived as a Royal PITA to your average punter.
Compare this to the slick marketing, signage, promise of regular feed stations and the general perception that you won't get lost, confused and/or abandoned of the Sportive.
I would imagine that most folk contemplating an organised cycling event of some distance for the first time wishes to concentrate on meeting the physical challenge and getting a nice trinket to show the wife and kids afterwards.
Compare this to something which might be perceived to be a bizzare combination of cycling and orienteering.
I suspect that many people would rather pay £20 for a Sportive rather than £5 for an Audax, assuming that the target audience is first timers, who will view the event as a one off.
I hope this helps.
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I rode a sportive today, cost only a quid or two more than a typical audax because check out / check in rather than expensive chips etc for timing. Feedstation and bacon rolls etc at the end included. A routesheet was provided but wasn't needed because of good signage. Complete spectrum of riders & bikes from fast carbon to panniers.
Differences to an audax:
- Times provided for those who are interested in a speed challenge but no pressure on those who aren't.
- No controls, plenty of possible shortcuts including missing out the biggest hill but it seems sportive entrants can be trusted to follow the route they've paid for and if they don't nobody cares (no points or prizes for the fastest times only personal satisfaction).
- Route signed, no need to interpret and follow a routesheet although one was provided if needed / preferred.
- Flexible start time between 07:30 and 09:30 so no large unwieldy groups near the start.
- Not deliberately routed to include open cafes (the only downside IMHO)
My buddy and me rode it very much at audax speed and apart from the above it could have been an audax.
In two weeks we're doing another that's organised on a similar basis, costs a bit more at £10 but a good chunk of that goes to the air ambulance.
I don't do the more expensive sportives though.
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The long and short of this is that IMO Audax is failing dismally to attract this very eager market at this sort of distance and we need to do something to prevent AUK events like this vanishing completely
I don't quite understand what you mean by this. A quick scan of the Audax results for last year shows that populaires were by far the best attended events, and although they do not attract as many riders as most sportives, they are still well attended. Many Audax events have a limit on the number of entries, usually as controls do not have the capacity to handle any more. On more that one occasion I have not been able to ride an event as it has been full. Audax events are, almost without exception ran by volunteers, whereas I believe that spotives are mostly commercial or charity based ventures, and all about getting as many entires as possible so that profits are maximised. If Audax organisers were encouraged to 'market' their events I believe that many would simply stop running them, but that doesn't mean that Audax is failing.
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I saw literally hundreds of riders all packing very serious kit;
Now go and have a flick through Arrivee. Not quite the same is it. There are marketing issues, but really the spirit of audax is the volunteer aspect. It's almost like a bicycle version of the church community.
The one thing that audax can never be accused of is pretence. Its a bunch of, largely, old duffers actually doing and excelling in the rides. I'm not so sure that sportives don't contain more than a smattering of fantasising racer wannabes.
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The long and short of this is that IMO Audax is failing dismally to attract this very eager market at this sort of distance and we need to do something to prevent AUK events like this vanishing completely
I don't quite understand what you mean by this. A quick scan of the Audax results for last year shows that populaires were by far the best attended events, and although they do not attract as many riders as most sportives, they are still well attended.
What I meant was Audax is failing to attract the burgeoning market that exists for sportives going out for a good hard ride on your nice bike; and for no good reason as the two types of event are broadly similar given or take the timing chips route sheets waymarks and energy gels.
and as Populaires are the grass roots by which riders enter the world of AUK we could lose out as sportives cash in for very valid reasons mentioned upthread. I hope I'm wrong.
The one thing that audax can never be accused of is pretence. Its a bunch of, largely, old duffers actually doing and excelling in the rides. I'm not so sure that sportives don't contain more than a smattering of fantasising racer wannabes.
Sportives are not races; the nearest thing in Old Money they possibly compare to is the good old Reliability Trial where you try to complete within a certain time band or else you fail.
Road races? forget it, I was blown clear out of the water on the few I did and that was when I could still do a TT. So sportive riders are only competing against other non racers as you say. But they are going from strength to strength and most of the people who ride them do not seem that concerned at what they cost and where it all goes.
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the two types of event are broadly similar given or take the timing chips route sheets waymarks and energy gels.
They may be, but the aspirations of the riders are another thing entirely
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A local club has been religously riding all the local 100km Audaxes (including the Grimpeurs) since the end of last year's TT season. I suggested that the logical step was to move up El Supremo's first 200 this weekend and got the sound of tumbleweed.
Haven't we just had this discussion (ref: my post on the thread on premonitions where I said I mainly experienced Deja Vu)?
The sky isn't about to fall in on Audax & CTC events because of a growing interest in Sportives, because whilst apparently similar Audax, CTC and Sportive events are completely different in character and appeal to different types of riders. I believe its called market segmentation/differentiation.
Sportive riders want to rip up the countryside on high performance bikes and be home for tea, CTC riders want to pootle round the countryside and be home for tea, whilst Audaxers are just getting into their stride by teatime.
That's it, really.
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Sportives appear to be more like organised Marathons. Many thousands if not millions of people have dome and are aware of Marathons. So doing a marathon with a bike isn't a big step.
Audaxes seem to be a bit more like those mad endurance hill runners that all got lost in the weather in the spring. No one knows that kind of event exists and when they hear about it they think the participants are mad.
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Different markets surely - there are no Sportives (AFAIK) above 199km and no (strict definition) Audaxes below 200km?
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I think it is mainly the difference between a route sheet and sign posts and that sportive times are posted so they can claim bragging rights.
I think the fact that sportives are arranged by race clubs rather than CTC DA's also plays into it with how many helpers you get.
Every year I struggle to get enough [10] people to marshall my Grimpeur event, yet as a Catford CC member the Hell of the Ashdown saw approx 50 volunteers ready and willing ::-)
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Does it matter that Audax is supported by only the select few?
I tried a "sportive" once and by the time Mrs.Wow and I had arrived back at the start some 8 hours later they'd all buggered off and were shirty that we took our time when I commented on the fact, even though we had entered as "tourists". You wouldn't find an audax organiser doing that.
Not that crowded controls have ever bothered me on an audax because I'm too slow and they are normally ready to pack up when I've been through, but you do hear tales about people wasting half an hour or more waiting for a stamp or a till receipt. If you had a couple of hundred entrants, that would exacerbate that problem.
In my view, all that matters is that people ride their bikes on roads.
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How annoyed would you be if you spent over a grand on a carbon bike, hundreds on Assos kit, etc and then on a ride got overtaken by a scruffy looking bloke wearing sandals riding a 20 year old steel bike with mudguards rack and Brooks saddle, and a tattered Carradice hanging off his saddle.
They maybe roughly the same event, but the way they differentiate themselves allows the individuals in each event to achieve the goals they set themselves.
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How annoyed would you be if you spent over a grand on a carbon bike, hundreds on Assos kit, etc and then on a ride got overtaken by a scruffy looking bloke wearing sandals riding a 20 year old steel bike with mudguards rack and saddle, and a tattered Carradice hanging off his saddle.
What a wonderfull idea.
Would riding a fixed wheel piss them off even more, do you think?
:demon: ;D
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I thought Jack wore Dunlop Greenflash, not sandals.
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How annoyed would you be if you spent over a grand on a carbon bike, hundreds on Assos kit, etc and then on a ride got overtaken by a scruffy looking bloke wearing sandals riding a 20 year old steel bike with mudguards rack and saddle, and a tattered Carradice hanging off his saddle.
What a wonderfull idea.
Would riding a fixed wheel piss them off even more, do you think?
:demon: ;D
I notice from the website that they didn't allow 'bents or tandems so worth a punt
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(edit; Stan, most of the local events are El Supremo catering or a similar version so involve no cafes; in fact not putting your hands in your pockets for anything except the brevet card all day)
Ok, you've told me. But do you tell *everyone*?
My presumption is audax=cafe stops, cyclosport=feed stations in lay-bys. Some organisers and events get a reputation for the type of stops they favour, Ken Knight's Shrewsbury audaxes come to mind as ones that provide their own catering. But you won't know until you've ridden them.
And I meet folk who want the cafes. Even on a cyclosport. Sitting down to beanz on toast or stopping for a pint on a 100km grimpeur strikes me as odd but the time limit's there and they use it to make a day of it.
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(edit; Stan, most of the local events are El Supremo catering or a similar version so involve no cafes; in fact not putting your hands in your pockets for anything except the brevet card all day)
Ok, you've told me. But do you tell *everyone*?
My presumption is audax=cafe stops, cyclosport=feed stations in lay-bys.
Well I do as I have to provide a (hopelessly inadequate by comparison) service to rival El Supremo. I also advertise it as such on the AUK calendar page. I do charge a small amount for food at the end as that does seem to be something not everyone wants.
I think that is something that could be improved on the AUK site; 3 commercial cafe controls (and even a cafe start) can start to make a Sportive look very cheap by comparison round my way....
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I noticed quite a few of the waymarks around whilst out and about yesterday and today (and very professional they were too complete with little signs before the tricky turns).
'waymarks'? 'little signs'?
Martin, that is well 'andbag mate, bit too NuLabour, touch of the nanny state about if you ask me ;D
Thing is, this works for a 100km. Even for a 100km, it's a lot of work to get important road signs organised throughout the route. What happens when it's a 200km, 300km etc How many signs go to make up a 600km? How does a sportive run a 600km? Do they? I've no idea. That's a lot fo signs.
The other thing is the connection to history, in the sense that 'all roads lead to Paris' syndrome. Audax has it's roots & origins in Europe does it not? [was it Italy even?] So AUK is part of a larger brotherhood [god that sounds a bit naff] of sister [even naffer] organisations throughout the world that have loose connections & affiliations , that enable riders from one country to ride a big event in another country providing that do an SR in their home country. One of the only many things I enjoyed about PBP was this kind of melting pot of nationalites for the one big ride.
Maybe Sportive Uk, could also fulfil this kind of qualifying obligation, but if it does then it needs to get somebody to cover the length of Wales to post signposts so people can ride without a route sheet.
And the bit about not accepting bents and tandems. Well [loads shotgun] where did you read that? I can understand people getting 'most annoyed' with bents*, but a tandem is just a longer DF innit?
Happy days :)
[incidentally, I met a mate of yours from Sussex on the Kennet 100 yesterday, Irish gent, Alister? he seemed to know all you folks down there in Sussex]
* except the kids, they always seem to see the fun in it all :thumbsup:
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Does it matter that Audax is supported by only the select few?
I tried a "sportive" once and by the time Mrs.Wow and I had arrived back at the start some 8 hours later they'd all buggered off and were shirty that we took our time when I commented on the fact, even though we had entered as "tourists". You wouldn't find an audax organiser doing that.
I have to disagree a few years ago I entered a 200k event and told the organiser that I would be last. at the final control I also mentioned to him that I was doing RRTY. When I got to the finish, everything was closed down, with the organiser sitting in his car waiting for my card. He opened the window took the card asked if I was OK and then left.
I have to say that I will never ride one of that clubs events again, even though some of the route was very enjoyable.
Geoff
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I am with Manotea on this one. it just seems to be a case of horses for courses. I have never done a sportive but I am not tempted by the signs or the energy gels or the timing. Audax does have a different image but there are plenty of young, fit, trendy guys doing audaxes. I did my first 200 of the year as a DIY this weekend now there's something you can't do as a sportive. I think AUK is doing just fine and should not be worried about the plethora of sportives but should rejoice in the fact that more people are getting off their arses and out oftheir cars and into the countryside on their bikes of a weekend.
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How annoyed would you be if you spent over a grand on a carbon bike, hundreds on Assos kit, etc and then on a ride got overtaken by a scruffy looking bloke wearing sandals riding a 20 year old steel bike with mudguards rack and saddle, and a tattered Carradice hanging off his saddle.
What a wonderfull idea.
Would riding a fixed wheel piss them off even more, do you think?
:demon: ;D
Wouldn't bother me in the slightest. Somebody else more physically capable than I am? Got over that type of insecurity in the playground.
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Sportives appear to be more like organised Marathons. Many thousands if not millions of people have dome and are aware of Marathons. So doing a marathon with a bike isn't a big step.
Audaxes seem to be a bit more like those mad endurance hill runners that all got lost in the weather in the spring. No one knows that kind of event exists and when they hear about it they think the participants are mad.
Spot on, Jaded.
(and, of course, it was only "outsiders" who thought that the runners got "lost". They didn't. They were good at what they were doing.)
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I noticed quite a few of the waymarks around whilst out and about yesterday and today (and very professional they were too complete with little signs before the tricky turns).
'waymarks'? 'little signs'?
Martin, that is well 'andbag mate, bit too NuLabour, touch of the nanny state about if you ask me ;D
They aren't very "self sufficiency" either are they?
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Learnig lessons from the success of sportives is a good, but dangerous idea as they are very different animals. I've never ridden a sportive, but I've helped organise one last year (and will do again this year) and have a fair idea of the sort of riders who participate. I know that I'm not quick enough to feel part of a sportive, but I'll ride my hundreth mile as quick as my tenth mile. I've not ridden more than 200km yet, but I have ambitions and sportives will not help there. We had some of the signs turned by local kids in the sportive and it caused havoc amongst the non local riders and that'll never happen in an Audax.
A conversation with a cycling mate last week went; "Are you doing Sunday's sportive?" "No you'll all be too fast for me. Do you want to do a 200km in March?" "No I can't ride that far, 5 or 6 hours is about my limit"
If we try to market to sportive riders we'll end up with Audaxes becoming cotton wooled 5 hour thrashes. Better IMO to market Audax as the next step up - OK you can do a quick 100 miles so how about challenging yourself to 300/400/600km.
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Sportives are popular because they are expensive. The aim is to reach a condition of fitness where one makes a good showing. So the fact that the event has published times and good publicity is positive. The price puts more pressure on to get fit, usually amplified by having an expensive bike. The only time that Audax enters the same market is during a PBP year or with prestige events such as the BCM or LEL. Sportives are all very Cycling+, about the kit, nutrition and training regimes.
The irony is that no serious cyle racer is going to do a sportive, except for appearance money, but you stand every chance of meeting one on an early season Audax.
Damon.
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Sportives are popular because they are expensive. The aim is to reach a condition of fitness where one makes a good showing. So the fact that the event has published times and good publicity is positive. The price puts more pressure on to get fit, usually amplified by having an expensive bike. The only time that Audax enters the same market is during a PBP year or with prestige events such as the BCM or LEL. Sportives are all very Cycling+, about the kit, nutrition and training regimes.
The irony is that no serious cyle racer is going to do a sportive, except for appearance money, but you stand every chance of meeting one on an early season Audax.
Damon.
How true. Neil Swithenbank from the SigmaSport Team was on the NW. Passage. I've done both Audaxes and Sportives. I love the Sportives because I don't have to think about the route but the standard of cycling is noticeably lower - freewheeling,cutting up, pushing past the traffic. Audaxes I enjoy because I can go fast if I want and it's surprising how fast the fixed riders/sandal wearers etc are going. Also the cameraderie is greater on Audax. But I HATE routesheets. NW Passage was fine because it was one side of A4 paper. But long rambling routesheets I detest and understand why people get a Garmin. On the foreign sportives, it's different again, with a sense of occasion and lot's of great kit with generally a v.high standard of riding. Gruppos form up whereas if you suggest forming a gruppo on a UK sportive, you are regarded in some wierd manner.
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As someone who hasn't done an Audax yet it is the routesheet aspect which I find the biggest disincentive.
What happens if you don't have a bar bag with a transparent map pocket? I have visions of feverishly trying to memorise chunks of the routesheet like an actor learning lines.
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As someone who hasn't done an Audax yet it is the routesheet aspect which I find the biggest disincentive.
What happens if you don't have a bar bag with a transparent map pocket? I have visions of feverishly trying to memorise chunks of the routesheet like an actor learning lines.
My routesheet is held by an A5 clipboard. Holes were drilled allowing me to use cable ties to attach it to my bars; bits old tubes are used at the contact points.
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For my first Audax I zip tied a bulldog clip to the stem and held the route sheet with it. When you collect the Brevet card at the start of the event it comes in a waterporoofish bag, just fold the routesheet and put it in the bag, then put the bag in the bulldog clip.
I have seen others attach the routesheet to their fore arm with elastic bands. I guess that could work quite well for people who are short sighted.
I have visions of feverishly trying to memorise chunks of the routesheet like an actor learning lines.
My mate Chris (yes another Chris) has a photographic memory and can quite hapily read through the routesheet whilst I drive him to an event, put the routesheet in his saddle bag and then ride 200km, quoting each instruction word perfect, from memory as we get to each junction.
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I did my first Audax without anything special to hold the routesheet. Kept it in a jacket pocket or (at one point) wrapped around my water bottle. I had to stop and refold it from time to time, but it didn't cause any problems. Admittedly I did go off-course at one point, but I blame that on "I'm following other cyclists, I don't need to look at the routesheet" effect, and I've learned my lesson.
Admittedly, I do now own a bar-bag with a nice map-holder on top, and I rather like it. There's still some stopping and re-folding required to keep the relevant parts visible. Next time out, I may try re-formating the routesheet to keep more of it visible.
On Saturday I spotted one rider with a routesheet (in some kind of clear plastic cover) looped around his forearm. Pretty near solution, although I'm not sure if I could get used to it myself.
GPS seems to be the neat solution. I may have to give it a try one day.
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As someone who hasn't done an Audax yet it is the routesheet aspect which I find the biggest disincentive.
It really isn't a problem. Sitting on the bike and pedaling for x00km is much trickier.
What happens if you don't have a bar bag with a transparent map pocket? I have visions of feverishly trying to memorise chunks of the routesheet like an actor learning lines.
Polaris Map Trap (http://www.dotbike.com/ProductsP3432.aspx?Track=FGL) or Rixen & Kaul Minimap (http://www.cyclesportsuk.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=6437).
Either fold the routesheet and put it in the clear plastic ziploc bag you get at the start (and stop and refold it when necessary). Or cut them to size, number them and buy some sticky-backed clear plastic to laminate them (or use a proper laminator if you have one). That way you don't have to faff with the refolding. It's just a case of turning them over midway or moving the next one to the top. It also won't matter if it rains on them for hours (or you drip sweat on them).
For my first Audax I just had a bulldog clip around a brake cable, worked ok (it did flap about a bit) but not as good as the above.
I have a R&K Minimap mounted on the tri-bars on my Tempo (http://www.greenbank.org/bikes/tempo/tempo6.jpg) although I've been relying purely on GPS for the last few rides as the tri-bars have been off the bike (being refitted today with a change from drops to bullhorns). I always carry the routesheet just in case something does go wrong though.
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I have some old Cinelli 'Spinaci' mini tri-bars and I fasten my laminated route sheet to them with a couple of big elastic bands.
Damon.
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I started out in Audax by always plotting the map and loading to GPS.
These days I don't bother, its much too easy just to read the routesheet, plotting the course in advance just takes too long.
On the Sportive topic one of the things I like about audax is the self reliance aspect .
Anyway I suspect that Sportives would make me feel old and unfit, whereas audax makes me feel young and unfit!
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I’ve never done a sportive, so can only talk from impressions that I get from the press.
The big audax is PBP, a big sportive would be a TdF stage etc.
Audaxers test themselves against the course and other amateurs (irrespective if the amateur is hard as nails, or soft as sponge). Sportive riders test themselves against the course, and by some abstraction the professional athlete.
The marathon analogy for a sportive does fit. Unfortunately whereas people see a sportive as a marathon, they see an audax as 50/100/200 mile fun run.
Mudguards, speed limits and lights do give us a strange reputation. From the point of view of a sportive rider, you spend hundreds to shave grams of weight off your bike, then you’re ‘forced’ to put commuter comforts onto your race weapon. A bit like having a F1 car, and then driving it with a tartan blanket over your legs, and a tin of boiled sweets on the dash.
How many people on a hilly hundred or 200 would actually bother the 30kph avg speed? I think many people mistake the average for a top speed, which would also put many people off.
Audax also has a progression, some mistakenly see the 100s and 200s as the ‘beginner’ events, compared to the 400s, 600s and 1200s.
In many ways, what attracts us to the audax, puts off many other riders. I like using my brain to read a routesheet (it distracts from the pain). Half my anecdotes are regarding off route errors, mechanicals or food at cafes.
The idea of riding really really hard for 5 or 6 hours following signs attached to lampposts, fuelled only by sports nutrition drink and energy gels really doesn’t appeal to me.
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Different markets surely - there are no Sportives (AFAIK) above 199km and no (strict definition) Audaxes below 200km?
Tour of the Black Mountains( I think that's it's name) is over 200km and there are a few others
None over 300km as far as I know
The only reason it is a "problem" to AUK that people are riding sportifs instead of 100km audax is that the short events often bankroll the longer ones. It's a plus point that more people are riding. Maybe some of them will go on to do nice long audaxes.
Also when I've spoke to people about audax rides- long or short or whatever- the main thing that puts them off is the signage and "getting lost". It's all very well saying that any idiot can read a route sheet but these people are not idiots and they do not want to be bothered with reading a route sheet, they want to follow arrows/each other.
I think AUK should change its rules to allow optional signage on rides less than 200k
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I have some old Cinelli 'Spinaci' mini tri-bars and I fasten my laminated route sheet to them with a couple of big elastic bands.
Damon.
I guess this is what marks out Audax as a broad church..
On one ride I did at night there was this guy with a home-made light box which back-lit the route sheet under a piece of magnifying perspex. He had a couple of scrollers at the top and bottom so he could move the sheet easily as he rode. And I think the whole thing was inside an old tobacco tin. That's how you should spend cold winter nights and that's what garden sheds are for!
I probably agree that there are types of people who are attracted to different types of event...
Liam
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Having had my rant upthread, I can sympathise with Martin's plight. Having put so much time and effort into developing his events and the Grimpeur Du Sud series it must be galling to have a sportive on his turf. It really comes down to his motivation as an organiser and aspirations for his events.
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I'm loving the route sheet tips, laminating seems a really good idea.
Sounds like you Audaxers have demolished another one of my excuses :-[ :)
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I think AUK should change its rules to allow optional signage on rides less than 200k
There's no actual rule against signage.
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One important point IMHO is that sportives are beginning to attract the attention of the police. Within two years I believe they will have a notification system to abide by and a whole lot of other fuss.
Except for the occasional police car enquiry during night rides, as to what we are doing, audax exists in its own environment, without interference from authorities.
I would hate to think that AUK tries to appeal to large fields for 100km rides and as a result is lumped with sportives for a police notification/authorisation/costs!
M
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I think AUK should change its rules to allow optional signage on rides less than 200k
There's no actual rule against signage.
There are actual laws about signage though. It is usually illegal to put signs up wherever you want without permission or a permit.
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One important point IMHO is that sportives are beginning to attract the attention of the police. Within two years I believe they will have a notification system to abide by and a whole lot of other fuss.
This is a truely excellent point. As it is we operate below the radar. It could be that sportives will do for us all.
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There are actual laws about signage though. It is usually illegal to put signs up wherever you want without permission or a permit.
How do sportives handle this? I'm guessing that the majority just put the signs up illegally for the day, and then take them down at the end.
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There are actual laws about signage though. It is usually illegal to put signs up wherever you want without permission or a permit.
True, but the waters have been muddied in recent years so that any TT organiser has to put up warning signs (without specific permission from the local authority), and charity events always put up signs (as a result of risk assessment). To be frank, it's a bit of a mess, legally.
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(New forum member - hello)
On the subject of map holders, I saw this simple DIY solution on the CTC forum, looks worth a try...
CTC Forum • View topic - DIY (audax) route card holder (http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?t=21453)
Likely to be better than the "bulldog clips around the brake cables" solution I tried on my first audax last year
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(New forum member - hello)
On the subject of map holders, I saw this simple DIY solution on the CTC forum, looks worth a try...
CTC Forum • View topic - DIY (audax) route card holder (http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?t=21453)
Likely to be better than the "bulldog clips around the brake cables" solution I tried on my first audax last year
Hi de Hi and welcome to the Forum. :thumbsup:
Just had a look at your DIY solution, simple but very cunning.
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There are actual laws about signage though. It is usually illegal to put signs up wherever you want without permission or a permit.
Since this is such a widespread practice, not just cycling events but car rallies and so on, it seems that if you put them up the day before and take them down the day after, the powers that be have other things to keep them busy.
But, do any of our legal experts know where you'd stand painting arrows on the road? Utility companies do it, councils do it. Use water-based paint and it'll be pretty much gone in a few weeks.
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Painting on the road is also illegal without permission. The AA and CTC are permitted to put signs up by the way. The person putting the sign up is breaking the law, not the organisation or event that the sign refers to.
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The AA and CTC are permitted to put signs up by the way.
Even that's not simple. They still have to approach the local authority, which can, if it wishes, be awkward, for instance by insisting on putting the signs themselves and charging for the work.
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There are actual laws about signage though. It is usually illegal to put signs up wherever you want without permission or a permit.
Since this is such a widespread practice, not just cycling events but car rallies and so on, it seems that if you put them up the day before and take them down the day after, the powers that be have other things to keep them busy.
Still illegal - if you do it without permission.
I'd be interested to know if organisers of Sportifs do get the requisite permission - and if so, what other steps do they have to take to keep the authorities onside?? How much of the entry fee is spent on this?
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Having had my rant upthread, I can sympathise with Martin's plight. Having put so much time and effort into developing his events and the Grimpeur Du Sud series it must be galling to have a sportive on his turf. It really comes down to his motivation as an organiser and aspirations for his events.
I'm not bothered about competition as it's months away from my own event; plus if it hadn't been for the dry spell recently the roads this time of year would be really horrible. What dismays me more is that having plugged my ride constantly for years (much like the original organiser) and also the GdS to fora magazines local clubs etc etc to keep the numbers up some complete unknown can come up with a slick website and he has the cycling press at his beck and call and 300 willing riders instantly.
And although £20 sounds ridiculous I've read that a lot of this could come down to the cost of those silly little chips (which if anybody was really bothered about "winning" they'd just short cut anyway)
The times have just been published online; that makes it a race, Mr Plodd?
(also my brother noted that you could not move for cars near the start village so bang goes that theory of getting people out of their cars)
There are actual laws about signage though. It is usually illegal to put signs up wherever you want without permission or a permit.
How do sportives handle this? I'm guessing that the majority just put the signs up illegally for the day, and then take them down at the end.
They were discreet orange arrows with no identifying source (backed up with a few bits of orange tape dangling from trees; it was possible confusion with the TT signs that alerted my club to the ride) I suppose all the polis could do is take them down and they have better things to do.
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I'm loving the route sheet tips, laminating seems a really good idea.
Sounds like you Audaxers have demolished another one of my excuses :-[ :)
I laminate my route sheets and attach them with a to the bar and cables with a couple of bits of that stuff with holes in from race blades. Weighs next to nothing. Really easy.
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The times have just been published online; that makes it a race, Mr Plodd?
The accepted procedure for 'challenge' rides is to publish a list of finishers and their times, sorted alphabetically by name. No positions, so it's not a race. Of course, there's nothing to stop you downloading the results into your favourite spreadsheet and sorting them any which way you choose.
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The times have just been published online; that makes it a race, Mr Plodd?
The accepted procedure for 'challenge' rides is to publish a list of finishers and their times, sorted alphabetically by name. No positions, so it's not a race. Of course, there's nothing to stop you downloading the results into your favourite spreadsheet and sorting them any which way you choose.
indeed; don't they do the same on PBP?
As someone who hasn't done an Audax yet it is the routesheet aspect which I find the biggest disincentive.
What happens if you don't have a bar bag with a transparent map pocket? I have visions of feverishly trying to memorise chunks of the routesheet like an actor learning lines.
I often go around chanting mantras to myself to remeber the next 3 or 4 directions
along the lines of "Lat Rat Sox Larab"
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The long and short of this is that IMO Audax is failing dismally to attract this very eager market at this sort of distance and we need to do something to prevent AUK events like this vanishing completely
All else aside, and I sympathise with the situation, are AUK events like this vanishing? We seem pretty steady, the 4-year PBP tide aside.
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There's something similar in this argument to the conflict between little shops and supermarkets - or even the LBS and (say) Wiggle.
The big organisations provide the required experience at the click of a mouse, whereas the independents need some face-to-face interaction and produce a wide range of experiences and effectiveness.
It's just modern times. As long as lots of people are on bikes, who cares?
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After I started commuting, I was introduced to my first sportive, by a friend. It was very enjoyable although rather busy and somewhat daunting at first. What really got me though was the price to enter, just to ride on the local roads :o
A year later and ( I think via AcF ) I found out about audaxing. What really struck me was the price to enter - or lack thereof. ;D
Audaxing is a much smaller community. Many know each other but as it is on a much smaller scale it could appear slightly more elitist ( cliquey ) to the unitiated.
What appeals to me about audaxing is the self sufficiency side. I was sort of doing that on the sportive anyway, but most were not.
The thought of having to stop because my chain had broken etc and not carrying any tools goes against my commuting brain - so in that respect, my thoughts are closer to audax than sportives.
I would be very saddened if audax was turned into sportive styles. It would loose me as a participant if that became the norm.
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The long and short of this is that IMO Audax is failing dismally to attract this very eager market at this sort of distance and we need to do something to prevent AUK events like this vanishing completely
All else aside, and I sympathise with the situation, are AUK events like this vanishing? We seem pretty steady, the 4-year PBP tide aside.
In a previous thread (Promoting AUDAX events (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=12542.msg238967#msg238967)) Frankly Frankie answered a similar question with the observation that both membership and riding seemed to be relatively stable over a long period of time (20-25 years). Audax riders seem to be a sustainable breed!
He also made the eminently sensible suggestion that Audax and Sportives events are complementary, not competitive, and by (my) extension could probably do more to learn from/work with the other.
FWIW my sense is that the two populations (sportive & audax riders) have a significant overlap, that audax tends to a higher age profile but sportives are much better at attracting (and sustaining?) the newcomer.
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Speaking as a newcomer I'd have to agree. To a neophyte, who, like me may have never entered a cycling event, but has done a couple of running events, Audax seems so quaint, old fashioned and slightly impenetrable.
The AUK website, whilst functional does look like it was knocked up by Mrs Beeton on an early manual typewriter and the amount of information about each event is perhaps a bit too concise. Then there's the diverting busines of snail mail and envelopes which is so redolent of John Major's cycling spinsters.
I'm not sure that in this day and age potential punters feel entirely able to respond positively to that sort of thing.
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Gandalf - The snail mail and stuff is part of the thing itself. It is indeed a genuinely different type of experience that is being offered, to those who can see its attraction.
Your last sentence talks of 'potentioal punters' and I think that is the issue. I don't think Audax is part of 'punter' culture at all - the world of created and packaged experiences that can be bought. Sportives are exactly that though - you buy a packaged experience. 'The hell of the XXX' or 'The Dragon' or suchlike. It is a sort of 'readymeal' ride in a box with a lovely picture of the end result on the outside. These can be really good.
Audax on the other hand is like real cooking, with recipe and ingredients. more complex, demanding, timeconsuming and satisfying in a different way. But it is not for punters - was never intended to be so and would suffer if lots of punters entered because its fragile infrastructure could not cope.
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I see what you mean Tiger, a beautifully crafted analogy.
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Gandalf - The snail mail and stuff is part of the thing itself. It is indeed a genuinely different type of experience that is being offered, to those who can see its attraction.
Your last sentence talks of 'potentioal punters' and I think that is the issue. I don't think Audax is part of 'punter' culture at all - the world of created and packaged experiences that can be bought. Sportives are exactly that though - you buy a packaged experience. 'The hell of the XXX' or 'The Dragon' or suchlike. It is a sort of 'readymeal' ride in a box with a lovely picture of the end result on the outside. These can be really good.
Audax on the other hand is like real cooking, with recipe and ingredients. more complex, demanding, timeconsuming and satisfying in a different way. But it is not for punters - was never intended to be so and would suffer if lots of punters entered because its fragile infrastructure could not cope.
Thats a lovely way of putting it.
I always think of sportives as something you do, and Audax as something you're involved in.
The idiosyncracies, the posting of entries, the volunteers and the crap website ;), are all involving.
Paying £25 online to turn up and ride, whilst enjoyable in its own way , isn't.
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the crap website
A little bit harsh...
To me, who likes to think he gets the Audax ethos, it's nigh on perfect. It's simple, tells me all I need to know (I'm happy to go wherever a ride takes me, I don't need to have every single detail listed), and free of advertising and gobs of irritating Flash animations and other web rubbish.
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I'm under 30 (just!) and have only been cycling for 'recreation' for the last 12-18 months. Completed (just!...) my first audax a few weeks back and thoroughly enjoyed it - I'd say it has even motivated me to get out on the bike more to be able to enjoy more events and longer events with a little less suffering. Whilst I'm probably more the sportive demographic, I'm not really competitive (although I do have my own personal goals) and have no interest in what strikes me a pseudo races. Furthermore the thought of paying £20+ really galls me in comparison to Audax costs - although I should add that work colleagues seem to think nothing of it and even described the Hampshire hilly 100 as 'cheap'.
I'd argue that they're separate markets - I want a laid back ride with people who don't care what type of bike I'm on, or how many chainrings I have or what my average speed is. I strongly suspect from colleagues anecdotes that sportives just ain't my bag.
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the crap website
A little bit harsh...
To me, who likes to think he gets the Audax ethos, it's nigh on perfect. It's simple, tells me all I need to know (I'm happy to go wherever a ride takes me, I don't need to have every single detail listed), and free of advertising and gobs of irritating Flash animations and other web rubbish.
Sorry ,yes a bit harsh and I should have put a smiley in their, that bit was a little tongue in cheek. Its certainly functional, not initially user friendly, and quite hard to navigate, it takes a bit of work, as I said , involving.
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It certainly seems that the world of Audax is very much under the radar ...last summer I was talking to a local club cyclist (and not some newbie) explaining with enthusiasm that I had just started 'audaxing' that year ...he was most insistent that I was mistaken and that I had actually been riding Sportive events as that is what Audax is now called!!
I've no experience of Sportive events ...however I have really enjoyed the Audaxing I have done so far. I like the understated, egalirtarian, friendly and 'hand crafted' feel I get from Audax .....a bit of an antidote to many of todays in your face, Hyper marketed, Super Brands we're bombarded with. Maybe it's just because I'm a country boy and it's just the nostalgia of village halls and tea from some ancient enamelled tea pot!!
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Paying £25 online to turn up and ride, whilst enjoyable in its own way , isn't.
Paying £25 for a couple of energy bars and an ASBO ankle bracelet is enjoyable exactly how?
:)
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Just looking through the T / C's of the sportive in question (I'm not going to reveal it; I have no quarrel with the organiser and FWIW think he put on an excellent event which I would probably have supported had I not been a stationary car target on a mini-roundabout at the time)
Helmets were compulsory (the only event I was aware of which has this stipulation apart from a few TT's where it's a district rule) are road races so not sure where a non-competitive event like this stands
A rescue service was offered (for 300 riders?)
I think in this respect Audax has got the whole side of this very well sewn up ; you are riding your bike from a to b via c d e and f and we just provide a suggested way of getting there; cake and a rubber stamp and that's the way it should be IMO
and +1 for the AUK website; since when did UK sportives take you up the Tour climbs you often see depicted in their blurb?
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Paying £25 online to turn up and ride, whilst enjoyable in its own way , isn't.
Paying £25 for a couple of energy bars and an ASBO ankle bracelet is enjoyable exactly how?
:)
Come on... Sportives are fun in pretty much the same way that Audax rides are. You're on your bike getting some fresh air. With regards to the costs, it's all pretty similar too when you factor travelling costs, food etc...
Having ridden both types of events, the notable difference is once the distance goes beyond 200k.
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Fred Whitton Challenge requires helmets. It's not waymarked though iirc.
I thoroughly enjoyed that, and am in again this year. :thumbsup:
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Helmets were compulsory (the only event I was aware of which has this stipulation apart from a few TT's where it's a district rule) are road races so not sure where a non-competitive event like this stands
A rescue service was offered (for 300 riders?)
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Helmets are required in most UK cyclosport events. It's a condition of their insurance. I also find it presents a positive image to communities and authorities when I speak to them.
One hopes that the numbers requiring recovery will be less than 100%, well 0% in truth.
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Helmets were compulsory (the only event I was aware of which has this stipulation apart from a few TT's where it's a district rule) are road races so not sure where a non-competitive event like this stands
A rescue service was offered (for 300 riders?)
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Helmets are required in most UK cyclosport events. It's a condition of their insurance. I also find it presents a positive image to communities and authorities when I speak to them.
without wishing to fan the usual flames I agree; just that all other events outside RR's can usually only "strongly recommend" but not mandate them as they are not a normal requirement for riding on the public highway (they are becoming compulsory on many French sportives too)
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It's not a regulation but an insurance requirement: http://www.cyclosport.org/organiser/benefits.aspx (http://www.cyclosport.org/organiser/benefits.aspx)"> .
No helmet, no ride.
And organisers can impose any additional condition they want on the same basis
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thanks;
that policy seems very reasonable at 66p; just goes to show what a safe sport cycling is :) (as an aside the only time I've needed a special holiday policy to cover the cycling aspect was PBP)
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And a good reason why you'll never see me on a sportive. I don't like being told what to do when it's my own head at risk ::-)
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This thread has inspired me to find a sportive somewhere and ride it to see what it is like.
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I'm going to find a sportive somewhere and ride it to see what it is like.
Choose a proper one in France - you'll love it!
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I did and I didn't. Give me Yorkshire ,Shropshire, Peak District, Wales anyday. I speak the language (sort of) and the food is luvly. There is a bit of the 'emporer's clothes' in all this France biz. No one dare suggest that Fleet Moss on a misty March morning is more inspiring than the sodding Alp d'huez when you can fry an egg on the hallowed tarmac :demon:
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the sodding Alp d'huez when you can fry an egg on the hallowed tarmac :demon:
You caught it on a good day then ...
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lol Nice one ;D
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Even Dawes are in on the act. The old Dawes Audax is gone and there's a new range of Dawes Sportif for 2009.
http://www.dawescycles.com (http://www.dawescycles.com)
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£2,999 for a Dawes, sheesh! Sportif, like Audax, but overpriced.
Dawes sportif ultra titanium bike (http://www.dawescycles.com/p-153-sportif-ultra-ti.aspx)
and it weighs 9.8 kg.
Probably a good time to investigate the old stock.
DAWES Audax Supreme 2008 2008 :: £720.00 :: BIKES :: Leisure Bikes - Tourers :: Spa Cycles, Harrogate - The touring cyclists specialist. (http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m1b1s21p897)
Damon.
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I used my Dawes Audax 2005 model on a Sportif last year and it coped superbly, as it always has !
( it cost only £ 600 ;D from Spa cycles ! )
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£2,999 for a Dawes, sheesh! Sportif, like Audax, but overpriced.
Dawes sportif ultra titanium bike (http://www.dawescycles.com/p-153-sportif-ultra-ti.aspx)
and it weighs 9.8 kg.
A Condor Gran Fondo with Ultegra is £700 cheaper and at least 1kg lighter.
And people used to say that you pay over the odds just because it has Condor written on it.
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It amuses me how different factions of our cycling fraternity get needlessly stressy about each other from time to time.
Why does one have to be classified as an audaxer, a sportiver, a tester, a roadie, a campaigner, etc?
I have experienced nearly every aspect of cycling and am a cyclist and enthusiast.
There is no doubt that the sportive boom is bringing lots of new people into the sport / pastime of cycling. Other facets of the sport are set to benefit from this boom, and I would identify 3 areas that are likely to feel this upswing the most:-
1) Cycle club membership - new riders who try a sportive and like it will look to push their hobby further and to mix socially with like minded people.
2) Time Trials - Although testing has been in decline, time trialling is an easy next step for a rider who has tried a couple of sportives, and would like to become a little competitive, even on a personal level. The CTT has a very similar "image" challenge to that mentioned above for AUK - ie Not flash, no PR etc etc.
3) Audaxing - An easy next step for a rider who has done a couple of sportives, and who might like to have a go at the longer distances. The thing is , these riders somehow need to stumble across Audaxing first and find out what is on offer.
One has to realise that all the new riders are individuals and will progress their cycling in many different ways. Thats fine, there's no need to get stressy about it, we are all cyclists, no matter what type of bike we ride.
Another valid point above is the one about large numbers of riders in sportives and potential problems to other road users / need for police involvement / any consequent regulation that might be imposed.
If the popularity of sportive riding keeps increasing this is very likely. I suppose all this would be speeded up if and when there is an unfortunate death in a sportive.
Possibly the sportive boom is reaching its peak , or will it become more popular still?
Who can call the top of a boom - Did anybody call the top of the tech boom or the house price boom? - Chapeau if you did!
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£2,999 for a Dawes, sheesh! Sportif, like Audax, but overpriced.
Dawes sportif ultra titanium bike (http://www.dawescycles.com/p-153-sportif-ultra-ti.aspx)
and it weighs 9.8 kg.
A Condor Gran Fondo with Ultegra is £700 cheaper and at least 1kg lighter.
And people used to say that you pay over the odds just because it has Condor written on it.
And a Madone with Ultregra triple at last year's prices was £2300, 2.5kg lighter without pedals (but also no mudguards). Perfectly comfortable for long distance cycling. However I'm not sure the wheels are up to some of the crappy roads Audax events tend to use.
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I'm going to find a sportive somewhere and ride it to see what it is like.
Choose a proper one in France - you'll love it!
+1 to that; L' Ardechoise and La Marmotte are still the most enjoyable cycle events I've ever done*; and for not much more than a UK sportive you get a whole weekend's experience gobsmacking scenery a massive supporting cast all manner of freebies closed (or virtually empty) roads and proper hospitality :) and if you're really lucky you get to fly Ryanair to get there...
* there was another in France which escapes me