Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => OT Knowledge => Topic started by: jane on 23 October, 2010, 05:31:31 pm
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It looks like we are going to need a new roof soon. I've always been interested in the idea of solar power and as our roof is south facing on one side I have been trying to find out if it would be a good idea to install solar tiles but trawling through the huge amount of information out there is leaving me even more confused than when I started- any recommendations/advice would be much appreciated.
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Something else to consider would be solar water heating. I'll post a link if I can track one down.
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Here's the CAT link (http://info.cat.org.uk/solar-water-heating).
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I think from a payback point of view, solar water is much better than solar electricity.
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It would not be for me; we don't use much hot water.
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a bloke at work has recently had them installed from what he says the amount of schemes you can opt for is mind boggling, in choice and complexity, most involving various complex equations between purchase price, amount of electricity they produce, amount of electricity they are expected to produce, amount of electricity you use, whether you opt for water heating ones or photo-voltaic cells, whether you choose to feed the energy back into the grid or just use it, offsetting the interest on the purchase price, tax, god knows what else. Probably also takes into account which way the wind's blowing, what colour trousers the london to newcastle train driver is wearing and the planck constant. ::-) ;) A mine field definitely. Good luck :thumbsup:
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It would not be for me; we don't use much hot water.
that's what my colleague thought before he discovered the photo-voltaic variety. Not all solar panels are the same, not all providers are the same, and not all schemes are the same. :) (I don't understand it, particularly, I hasten to add - I just know it's not a simple business!)
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PV pays you a guaranteed rate of return over 25 years if you can afford the £20-30,000 upfront cost. Actually, it pays back even if you need to take out a mortgage to buy the panels. The only reason we haven't done it (we have an ideal roof for it, being south-facing and early-1980s with a gentle pitch) is that I don't fancy any more debt these days.
Other people will install them on your roof for nothing, but they get the returns*; you just get to use the free electricity when it's available.
*which are wholly disconnected from the amount of electricity produced; it's a very silly giveaway which is bound to be closed off by the government any time now
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Something else to consider would be solar water heating. I'll post a link if I can track one down.
But then to make the most you need washing machine and dishwasher that are "hot fill", and many/most aren't these days,
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Something else to consider would be solar water heating. I'll post a link if I can track one down.
But then to make the most you need washing machine and dishwasher that are "hot fill", and many/most aren't these days,
They are if you connect them to the hot pipe!
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1. Are you thinking about installing solar PV roof tiles as a replacement roof covering? If so, then you need to consider
(a) that this would probably work out more expensive than just replacing the roof and then mounting ordinary solar PV panels on top, and
(b) that any solar PV tiles you do select - if you go down that route - must be MCS accredited otherwise you won't be eligibile for the Feed-in Tariff.
2. The Government's recent Spending Review confirmed that they will be introducing a Renewable Heat Incentive (RHI) - a sort of Feed-in Tariff for heat - during 2011-12 (target date is April 2011). Any solar hot water schemes that are MCS accredited installations that are done now WILL be eligibile for the RHI when it is introduced. However, whilst the RHI tariff payments have been out at Consultation, the final shape of the scheme has not yet been announced, but it will be a useful incentive nonetheless.
Typical payback on conventional "on-roof" (mounted on top) solar PV systems now is 8 - 12 years for a domestic installation. The Feed-in Tariff pays 41.3p for every kilowatt hour of electricity you generate irrespective of whether you use it on site or not. For every kWh that you export (i.e. don't use yourself) you get paid an additional 3p. A typical 3 bed semi-detached house with a reasonably southish facing roof would fit something like a 2 kW peak output sized PV array, and this would generate about 50% of your annual electricity needs.
I installed a 3.5kW peak output array on a WSW facing roof here at Quisling Towers (i.e. sub-optimal but some margin) back in May and have nearly generated 2000 kWh. I reckon I'll do about 2500 kWh+ over a 12 month period. The average UK home uses about 4500 kWh of electricity per year. Fortunately I use less so I reckon I'll be about net zero usage across a 12 month period.
PV is pricey, but has come down a lot in the last 12 months. Ensure you get quotes from MCS accredited installers, and then haggle! Domestic sales techniques are akin to double glazing and conservatories so you should be able to squeeze a 4 figure sum off the original price you get quoted.
Any PV installation should have an Ofgem registered generation meter installed to record generation for the purposes of claiming the Feed-in Tariff. The FiT can be claimed from your electricty supplier (the big 6 are all mandated to provide FiT payments, but smaller suppliers with < 50000 customers don't have to).
Quisling
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That was extremely useful- still mind boggled but slightly less so and am now able to at least develop a line of enquiry- thanks folks.
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I just got a rough quote for 16k and about a decade payback for 4 kW of PV
OK, but that doesn't seem to make economic sense to me - unless you're in it for 20 years, guaranteed.
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but they get the returns*; you just get to use the free electricity when it's available.
*which are wholly disconnected from the amount of electricity produced; it's a very silly giveaway which is bound to be closed off by the government any time now
This is bizarre
You get 100% of the payment for what you produce, even if you use it all yourself.
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but they get the returns*; you just get to use the free electricity when it's available.
*which are wholly disconnected from the amount of electricity produced; it's a very silly giveaway which is bound to be closed off by the government any time now
This is bizarre
You get 100% of the payment for what you produce, even if you use it all yourself.
£16k for 4kWp sounds like a typical first quote price.
The Feed-in Tariff is not really a "Feed-in" to the grid tariff, it's an incentive to increase the uptake of renewables and provides a decent return on your investment, rather than a decent return for feeding power back to the grid.
You get three income streams from installing domestic PV. In order for value they are:
1. the FIT generation payment (varies, but is 41.3p for domestic retrofit < 4kWpeak)
2. the savings you make by offsetting against reduced import electricity from the grid
3. the FIT export payment (3p/kWh for every kWh you export). Export is currently deemed at 50% of total generation, but once smart metering is rolled out in the next few years the export payment will be based on actual measured export.
The tendency amongst domestic consumers is to think in terms of simple payback calculations - e.g. it'll take about 10 years for me to get my money back. However, if you think in terms of investment income then it starts to make more sense as the FIT was designed to deliver 5-8% return on investment. Factor in that this payment is INDEX LINKED TO RPI AND TAX FREE then in real terms it's worth perhaps 9% or more. You won't get that of an ISA any time soon.
The average home occupancy before moving is about 12 years. Estate agents haven't yet really figured out how to value a home with PV on it. The FIT is transferrable to the new owner, so when you sell up you're selling a property with an ongoing income stream and a valuable asset strapped to the roof.
If the PV does take 10 years to pay back, there's still another 15 years of FIT income (it pays for 25 years on PV), and after that you still get the savings from the reduced import.
Notes of caution:
1. PV output degrades over time, but MCS accredited panels will generally give at least 80% of "as new" performance after 20 years.
2. Mean time to first failure of the inverters is likely to be much shorter - about 10 years or so. Accordingly, you'd need to factor in £500 - £1000 to replace the inverter half way through the FIT period.
To put that into context, my (sub optimally located) 3.5kW peak output (which only gets to about 2.85kW because it faces WSW) earned me £525 in FIT income from mid May - mid August this year.
Hope this helps.
Q
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but they get the returns*; you just get to use the free electricity when it's available.
*which are wholly disconnected from the amount of electricity produced; it's a very silly giveaway which is bound to be closed off by the government any time now
This is bizarre
You get 100% of the payment for what you produce, even if you use it all yourself.
£16k for 4kWp sounds like a typical first quote price.
The Feed-in Tariff is not really a "Feed-in" to the grid tariff, it's an incentive to increase the uptake of renewables and provides a decent return on your investment, rather than a decent return for feeding power back to the grid.
The tendency amongst domestic consumers is to think in terms of simple payback calculations - e.g. it'll take about 10 years for me to get my money back. However, if you think in terms of investment income then it starts to make more sense as the FIT was designed to deliver 5-8% return on investment. Factor in that this payment is INDEX LINKED TO RPI AND TAX FREE then in real terms it's worth perhaps 9% or more. You won't get that of an ISA any time soon.
Except...you don't get the initial capital back*, and it doesn't compound
*value of installation at end of useful life = -ve several k£
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MV - I agree that having someone else install them "for free" for you is the option of last resort. The returns by doing it yourself are significantly better. Moreover, at a domestic scale it's only worth installing them for free if you can get optimum sites, i.e. 3.5kW approx, south facing, pitched roof, no shading etc, so the average punter isn't going to get it installed for free,
Q
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Thread resurrection triggered by a piece on C4 news about this last night
We have an expanse of Sth-facing roof, ideal for solar PV. But I can't get my head around the economics (I'm reasonably unconvinced that there's an environmental case)
The figures they were quoting last night - and these tally with my own research - is that about 4 kW installed will cost about 13k and will get you about a 10% return per annum (all +/- a bit of course) when you include your own usage, being paid to expert when you aren't etc, and that the tariff is maintained (as it wasn't in German). So best-case, I think.
Now, that's a decent return on your money, but of course you lose the initial investment, so it's not like a deposit account. On that basis it takes a decade to get your money back, and then say you have a clear decade of actual income before the panels die; 20 years seems about right though you might get more with luck. So after 20 years you've doubled your money.
That doesn't seem like a great investment to me - you can get 4% easily from a bond at the moment and over 10 years that would get you 50% plus your initial sum, and over 20 years it'd be 2.7 times the initial investment.
Now, of course, it may be that tariffs rise hugely or that electricity becomes so expensive as to be a luxury - and then all bets are off. But taking it as an investment decision, all else being equal, it doesn't seem to me to stack up.
What am I missing ? I really want to make this work, but I can't.
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I was tempted to explore the government subsidised schemes - but two things have stopped me dead in my tracks.
The first is similar to Rogerzilla's point about taking on more debt - at my age (55) even with no intention of moving I don't fancy fitting something to my house that will have a 20+ year lifespan, and the accompanying debt issue - particulalry as our house roof is more south-east than south facing, so unlikely to get the full grant. Secondly, I've heard from a couple of sources (the most recent being BBC Radio 4's Money Programme) that it is, under current arrangments next-to impossible to get a mortgage on a house whose roof is leased to a Solar Panel Company - this effectively makes your house unsaleable with a roof fitted with panels that you have not paid for fully yourself.
I've not ruled out the garage roof though!
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worth perhaps 9% or more. You won't get that of an ISA any time soon.
Depends which ISA you choose. Plenty will outperform 9%
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worth perhaps 9% or more. You won't get that of an ISA any time soon.
Depends which ISA you choose. Plenty will outperform 9%
An ISA is just a tax wrapper - it's the underlying investment which performs - or not. I'd like to know how to get a reasonably safe 9% return though.
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An ISA is just a tax wrapper - it's the underlying investment which performs - or not. I'd like to know how to get a reasonably safe 9% return though.
I can get you a 100% return - just bet on black. Ahh - I see you said safe ;D
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What am I missing ? I really want to make this work, but I can't.
Possibly two things:
1. you assumed the coupons from your bond are compounded, but the returns from the solar just added up rather than invested.
2. the returns from the solar are a mix of the feed-in tarriff - I assume this is fixed that's what the guarantee is for - plus what you save on not having to pay for electricity - this is not fixed. I reckon 5% price inflation on fuel is probably conservative unless there's some amazing technological breakthrough, but who knows?
So. Supposing your 1,300 return is made up of 300 cash for feed-in plus 1000 saving in fuel bills, with the latter increasing 5% annually, that gives you 39K cash over 20 years as opposed to 26K (double your money). To compare with the bond, if you took the coupon that would give you 10.4K cash plus your 13K investement back.
That's not a good comparison because with the bond the total figure is not spread evenly, you take the capital out at the end. So, suppose you compound the bond coupon and invest the electricity cash at 3%. After 20 years you have 27.4K from your bond against 48.5K from your solar panels.
Lots of arm-waving figures, and my sums may well be wrong, but if it doesn't work out you can heat your house with the warm glow of self-satisfaction at being non-fossil fueled.
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but if it doesn't work out you can heat your house with the warm glow of self-satisfaction at being non-fossil fueled.
Apart from the fossil fuels used to make the solar panels of course.
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but if it doesn't work out you can heat your house with the warm glow of self-satisfaction at being non-fossil fueled.
Apart from the fossil fuels used to make the solar panels of course.
And the fact that about 90% of the electricity they produce is when you don't need to use a lot of electricity.
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worth perhaps 9% or more. You won't get that of an ISA any time soon.
Depends which ISA you choose. Plenty will outperform 9%
I'd like to know how to get a reasonably safe 9% return though.
Just select the correct ISA
Seriously though, go to an investment site like III Investment (http://www.iii.co.uk/isas/fundfilter/?task=show_fund_search&order_by=FS__p1&asc_desc=DESC&l=50&o=1&FS__FSS__id=&FS__FSM__id=11&FS__fn=&) and take a look at ready made funds wrapped in an ISA (I use Fidelity funds but they aren't special).
Take a look at funds by 1 year, 3year, 5 year and 10 year performance and see which ones are most reliable. That's all I do. My ISAs have never done worse that 10% a year across any 3 year period. Yes I took a hit a couple of years ago but, because I "drip-feed" my ISAs monthly I ended up making a significant gain when all the markets recovered (hence a lot of the funds show >20% over the last 12 months.
It's a bit like roulette I suppose but with the aid of a chart showing you where the ball is most likely to land.
I started doing this some years ago when I found out that the fella in charge of my Halifax Endowment mortgage was significantly worse at selecting funds than Stevie Wonder throwing darts at the Financial Times (and I appeared to be paying through the nose for such inept management).
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What am I missing ? I really want to make this work, but I can't.
Possibly two things:
1. you assumed the coupons from your bond are compounded, but the returns from the solar just added up rather than invested.
2. the returns from the solar are a mix of the feed-in tarriff - I assume this is fixed that's what the guarantee is for - plus what you save on not having to pay for electricity - this is not fixed. I reckon 5% price inflation on fuel is probably conservative unless there's some amazing technological breakthrough, but who knows?
So. Supposing your 1,300 return is made up of 300 cash for feed-in plus 1000 saving in fuel bills, with the latter increasing 5% annually, that gives you 39K cash over 20 years as opposed to 26K (double your money). To compare with the bond, if you took the coupon that would give you 10.4K cash plus your 13K investement back.
That's not a good comparison because with the bond the total figure is not spread evenly, you take the capital out at the end. So, suppose you compound the bond coupon and invest the electricity cash at 3%. After 20 years you have 27.4K from your bond against 48.5K from your solar panels.
Lots of arm-waving figures, and my sums may well be wrong, but if it doesn't work out you can heat your house with the warm glow of self-satisfaction at being non-fossil fueled.
Ok, that's useful, thanks. Makes a bit more sense if one compounds up the income
I think the tariff/fuel saving split is nearer 1000:300 than 300:1000 though
One advantage I can see is that come the (UK) zombie apocalypse, I can disconnect the power line, steal some accumulators and go off-grid. We already have a well, a couple of woodburners and satellite comms. And an electric shower somewhere about the place, so that's OK.
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The other issue is that the government is planning to reduce the FIT over coming years, thereby increasing the payback period and reducing the cost effectiveness. I would prefer the basking scenario rather than the fiscal system but then I'm not cash rich (probably why!!) ;D
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Get advice. The Feed in tariff is operating atm and makes a huge difference to your investment decision making process. Crossed posts.
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MV, the other thing you're missing is that the FIT is RPI linked for 25 years and tax free for domestic punters.
The panels will degrade but you'll still get a minimum of 80% output after 20 years. The risk factor is that you'll probably have to replace the inverter within the 25 years.
My 3.5kW array went live 12/5/2010 and has produced to date 2273kWh. Remember it's sub-optimally sited (facing WSW).
2273 x 41.3p (generation) = £938.75
2273 x 0.5 x 3p (export) = £68.19
Offset import - averaging about 50% over the year so far = 2273 x 0.5 x my import tariff - say 12p/kWh = £136.38
Total "benefit" = £1143.32 in 8 and a half months.
HOWEVER, since my import contract is a green tariff which at peak units is around 25p and other units about 15p the benefit is better. Strictly speaking you should compare the savings to the cost of buying a "green" import tariff and then you're comparing green generation against green import so the cost of carbon is being considered in both.
Colin
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And the fact that about 90% of the electricity they produce is when you don't need to use a lot of electricity.
Yes but others do need it - demand in this country now peaks in hot weather, due to lots of air-con* IMO the feed in tariff is fairly safe as you are lopping peak demand and avoiding the need for expensive inefficient high carbon plant to be brought on line.
*In the 2006 hot summer, traditionally generating plant was taken down for summer maintenance, keeping the grid on was a close call and cost 45p KWh http://www.power-technology.com/features/feature1139/ (http://www.power-technology.com/features/feature1139/)
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but if it doesn't work out you can heat your house with the warm glow of self-satisfaction at being non-fossil fueled.
Apart from the fossil fuels used to make the solar panels of course.
And the fact that about 90% of the electricity they produce is when you don't need to use a lot of electricity.
My own usage of my own on-site PV generation ranges from about 30% in the summer to 68% in the winter when I'm generating less. About 20% of domestic electricity usage is refrigeration which provides as respectable baseload of perhaps 200-400W depending on how high the ambient temperature is etc. Across the year I'll probably average using about 50% of my own generation.
With respect to the energy input to manufacture the panels this is recouped within the first few years of use. Aluminium frames can be manufactured from recycled materials and are recyclable at end of usable life. .
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<resurrection shuffle>
Looking at this again, in conjunction with changing all the lights in the house to CFL/LED
One company came out in the autumn and did a survey, got scared off by being asked in detail about lifetimes and returns and didn't bother quoting.
Called one today, they came out immediately <warning bells> and the chaps was frankly incompetent. We have an electrician living with us on a permanent basis (he's in his 4th week on site) and he offered to put in all the cabling and the breaker in the new consumer unit he's fitting. Survey boy had no idea what size cable or breaker were needed, and was all-in-all deeply unconvincing.
A local chap (who on the phone sounds very honest & knowledgeable and was willing to give contact details for previous customers who would give him references) is coming on Friday.
Conclusion: many cowboys are involved in this business.
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As well as a few cowboys there seem to be lots of fast tracked newbies in the solar PV business - I think supply is having trouble keeping up with demand. The electrics were the weak point of our installation, messy rather than unsafe though so I said I'd sort it myself rather than put Jane through another builders visit. Solar PV is a very different thing for your average sparks what with high current DC in the loft and 230V AC coming both ways down the wire. Worrying stuff such as securing the panels to the roof firmly and assembling/dismantling scaffolding without breaking anything seemed to be very professional, all the various teams of builders roofers etc turned up when they said they would and left very little mess. We used Solar PVE (http://www.solarpve.co.uk/) based in Bredon. We got 10 year warranty panels and inverter plus 25 year output guarantee on the panels.
The FiT is index linked and goes up to 43.3p per unit this April and every year (as I suspect will the price of electric) but the FiT for newcomers will probably be reduced April 2012. We've already generated more than the 160 kWh estimated for March from our 2.5 kW max system but it is very sun dependent, a cloudy day and production drops 75%.
I think it's well worth going for but just make sure you find a good company with a long guarantee.
We also have the temporary bonus of our old style supply meter going backwards on a good day - we don't appear to have used any electric at all for a week - I've phoned them twice and they've said they'll replace the meter so the balls in Southern Electrics court.
Bad news is for safety reasons (electricians working up the line) you can't run the approved grid-tie inverters without a mains supply present so not much use post apocalypse without stand alone inverters :(
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Small scale systems will generally not be larger than 4kW. Installations I've been involved in (I'm an electrician doing the inverter installation for a reputable local installer) are producing around 3kW.
The DC 'tails' come into the inverter via a DC isolator (the panels are constantly live). The inverter feeds into a suitable MCB in the consumer unit, usually a 16 amp B curve but sometimes a 20amp C curve via a meter and AC isolator. Cable is 4mm minimum but size will depend on the length of run from inverter to consumer unit as the voltage drop needs to be properly allowed for (1% ideally).
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Given that these solar tiles are rather expensive I would be worried a couple of TGBs in vans would be along pdq to half inch them from the roof. Copper is routinely stripped from roofs and cabling dug up so PVT would seem to me to be at risk. How could theft of PVTs be minimised as they are rather obvious when on a roof and everyone knows they cost a fortune? Snipers?
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Not sure what the market would be though
The value to most people is the feed-in tariff, and to get that they have to be installed by an accredited organisation, not some dodgy WVM who offers you a deal on the doorstep. Unless the official installers started fencing, I'm not sure they'd have very much value at all in reality.
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This is interesting. Given a roof of 25m x15m (OK, could be 12m from the gutter to the apex), steeply pitched (60 degrees?), steel framed and south facing, what kind of power would these things produce?
** Googles **
Looks like a 20kW array could cost around 60k to install but would give a return of about 10% per year in FiT etc and provide essentially free electricity. I think this is scaled from a domestic install so may be cheaper than this.
(Yes it is a large hall). There is another hall about the size of two badminton courts with a much flatter roof (20-30 degrees).
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The impression I gained from the Solartwin guy who tried to flog me some of this stuff was that pitched roofs are typically either 45° or 35°.
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The impression I gained from the Solartwin guy who tried to flog me some of this stuff was that pitched roofs are typically either 45° or 35°.
This roof is substantially steeper than the average pitched roof. Definitely too steep to walk on. Add the other hall and we could get up to about 50kW which at domestic rates would be about 150k of investment, payback on FiT in about 8 years.
Definitely worth considering.
..d
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FIT goes down above 4 kW. It's not just the bit above 4 kW that attracts a lower rate, it's the whole thing
The S-facing bit of our roof is about 10 m long and about 3.5 wide, with a 35 degree pitch, and will just take 4 kW.
I'd calculated pay back on installed costs in about a decade for 4 kW. The second decade you start to make some money ;)
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Thanks for the detail. It is definitely something to consider though payback may be reduced if we do produce too much. Time to get some advice from the experts.
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The PVGIS (http://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvgis/apps4/pvest.php) calculator is quite fun - results for ours were a few % below what the supplier quoted but we have a rather non-standard set-up with 2 arrays of 7 panels on SE and SW facing roofs. You need to select your location, roof angle etc but ignore the 'tracking' options, they're for fancy panels with motors to turn them into the sun.
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@All
remember the FIT increases for domestic installs w.e.f. 1/4/11 in line with December RPI so I think domestic retrofit <4kWp will be 43.3p generation and 3.x for export.
Quisling towers is on line to do about 2500kWh in the first year of operation.
@David Martin - there is a fast track FIT review ongoing up until about July which may kill off projects >50kW peak output though the industry is widely lobbying for ongoing support for projects up to about 250kW. You're right - about 8 year payback at present prices for a decent size, well arranged array.
With respect to the domestic market, if you don't want the risk of spending your own cash, E.ON will shortly be launching a "free PV" offer, though as with all these schemes it'll only be fairly optimal sites that qualify (big roof, southish facing, no obstacles like dormer windows, 2 storeys or less etc).
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We had a visit from a much more convincing installer today
Knew about all the different panel options & their electrical characteristics, could talk knowledgeably about inverter efficiency and DC-->AC conversion processes, said he'd use a roofing company to do the mounting work and was good on how much we should install - he argued for 3 rather than 4 kW even though he'd get less money
Winner so far, and even Gavin our resident electrician reckoned he knew his stuff.
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I've started looking into this, and have lined up several firms to come out and quote. The normal roof faces SW, although at the back we've got a massive flat roof area, and so could have the array aligned due south.
Having read through the Statutory Instrument setting out the basis for the Feed In Tariffs, although it's nice it's quite clearly set out as RPI increases for the 25 year period, my nagging concern is that any Government could say in 10 years time, sorry no more FITs and simply stop or reduce the current amounts.
I know the rate will alter for new installations from 2012 onwards, but in the same way that occasionally Governments have introduced retrospective taxation, I have this nagging worry they could alter everything for existing installations. Which makes the case for going for one of the "free" installations more compelling. :-\
It's also a shame that if there's a power cut, then you can't use the electricity you're generating. I know they don't want privately generated power still being pumped into the grid if the system's down, but you'd have thought the electronics could handle an isolator to stop electricity going down the wire on those occasions?
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The inverter senses when the mains import supply is lost and automatically stops feeding power back into the grid in order to protect engineers working to restore power from getting blasted. It is also a requirement that the electrical installation is clearly labelled in the house so any electrician working within the propert can isolate the PV array. There will be a DC isolator on the array side of the inverter and an AC isolator between the inverter and the consumer unit so that the system can be shut down if it has a fault.
The electrical safety with respect to automatic shutdowns is all covered in the G83/1 or G59 regulations depending on the size of the array. G83/1 covers installations up to 16 Amps per phase - about 3.7 kW peak output.
Given the legally binding carbon reduction targets the government has to deal with (or risk ire from the EU) I wouldnt worry about retrospective tax changes. The current FIT review consultation is very much aimed at protecting opportunities for the domestic householder to install PV and reduce the number of larger commercial arrays.
I've just reached the end of my first year as a PV owner - I reckon my ROI is about 9% tax free (based on 3.5 kWp array and £13k install cost.
Sure, some peasant government might introduce retrospective tax changed but given that this is not being considered in the middle of a dark recession it's not looking likely in the immediate future. indeed, if you are concerned then treat a PV investment in the same way as a stocks and shares ISA - is value of investment return may fall.
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I'm losing the will to live over the planning requirements. It should be simple, but it's not.
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It's been a good spring for PV owners in London. Regularly earning £5 per day, well up on this period last year.
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I'm losing the will to live over the planning requirements. It should be simple, but it's not.
Should be very straightfoward Unless you're conservation area or listed building then domestic PV has "Permitted Development" and doesn't need planning permission. There are exceptions - e.g. if your PV is of unusual design, sticks up more than (I think) 200mm above the surface of the roof, or extends above the roofline etc.
Building Control is a different issue, but should be covered by a "Building Notice" application rather than a full plans submission. Herr Inspektor then does a visit, post-install, and declares it to be the love plums of a dog or a crock of dung - in which case you put the pain on your installer who should have designed a suitable system for you. Our local BC Dept charged me about £110 for their involvement before signing the job off.
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Should be very straightfoward Unless you're conservation area or listed building then domestic PV has "Permitted Development" and doesn't need planning permission.
AONB.
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Hmm.. stil looking at this and reckoning that with removal of some trees (which need to be removed anyway) there is definitely scope for about 40-50kW of power from the roof of the church. 50ish degree roof facing S.
That is one chunky cable that may need to be laid to run the lectrickery back to the mains.. Time to talk to the energy provider.
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Should be very straightfoward Unless you're conservation area or listed building then domestic PV has "Permitted Development" and doesn't need planning permission. There are exceptions - e.g. if your PV is of unusual design, sticks up more than (I think) 200mm above the surface of the roof, or extends above the roofline etc.
"Above the roofline."
Does that mean "higher than the roof", or "visible from the road as poking out above the roof" ?
The reason I ask is that we are the North end of a semi with the front facing East. However, the loft has been converted at the rear of the property which means we have a large flat roof behind the ridge tiles. To mount PV panels there at a reasonable angle they would certainly be higher than the existing roof line, but quite possibly not visible from the road.
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@hatler
See The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (Amendment) (England) Order 2008 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/675/article/2/made)
Section A1(b) answers your question
@Malvolio
This link may also help you to some extent, though the specific application of the guidance for AONBs is likely to being given precedence by the local planners. However, the permitted development order does spell out what is acceptable permitted development for UNESCO world heritage sites so if you meet that requirement you should be ok!
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@hatler
See The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (Amendment) (England) Order 2008 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/675/article/2/made)
Section A1(b) answers your question
Thank you.
And dang !
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I've now had 4 firms in to quote, and am at the stage of deciding which one to go for (after trying some haggling).
Interestingly, they all say as part of the selling angle, that the Feed In Tariffs are being paid for people who haven't installed solar. In that the cost is being raised from the industry, who in turn recoup it by raising prices.
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I've now had 4 firms in to quote, and am at the stage of deciding which one to go for (after trying some haggling).
Interestingly, they all say as part of the selling angle, that the Feed In Tariffs are being paid for people who haven't installed solar. In that the cost is being raised from the industry, who in turn recoup it by raising prices.
In fact the cost of paying for the FITs is spread over all grid connected domestic electricity bills including those who have installed solar PV - it's just that they'll pay a bit less. That's why George Monbiot described it as a middle class tax break, since those who can afford to install PV are benefitting at the expense of everyone else. The energy companies don't profit from administering FIT payments - there is an agreed cost to serve as part of the FIT agreement/obligation.
However, this is by no means the only additional cost that's collected via your energy bills. First there was EEC1 and EEC2, since replaced by the CERT and CESP energy efficiency programmes. These are obligations upon suppliers with >50000 customers to provide subsidised (or sometimes free) energy/carbon reduction support to domestic energy users (this funds mostly insulation measures and has paid for a lot of the discounted loft insulation you see in the DIY shops. But you pay for it in your bills.
When the Green Deal is launched in 2012 there will be an ongoing "ECO" Energy Company Obligation to continue to provide support to consumer carbon reduction where the customer is unable to take up loans under the Green Deal (because the measure they're seeking to install doesn't meet the "golden rule" of paying back from the savings it generates).
The other one people generally don't know about is that theft of gas from the gas network (or leaks) is spread across your gas bills so that the network operator isn't left out of pocket (Nat Grid).
In summary - if you work like heck to reduce your energy usage you'll spend a lot less money subsiding everyone else.
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We've had the first company come and quote on our small SSW facing 35 degree roof and my head has started to spin. I'm trying to work out which are the numbers I need to concentrate on - any help/views very much welcome:
6x Photovoltaic High performance modules
Eging EGM – 190Wp,
Monocrystalline cells (width x height: 808:1580)
1x Inverter
DC/AC SMA Sunny Boy SB 1200
Strings/cables, 6mm², MC4/with Tyco connections
Schletter solar mounting system (made of aluminium and stainless steel
Full roofing and electrical installation
Scaffold to rear
System size:
1.14 kWp
Breakeven point:
11.1 years
Feed in payment (Year 1):
£392.25
Electricity saving (Year 1):
£74.73
Net Present:
£19,135.62
Yield:
6.3%
Electricity Usage:
3,000 kWh p/a
Panel degradation (over 25 years):
10%
Inflation Feed In Tariff:
10%
Inflation Electricity:
10%
TOTAL cost including vat @ 5%:£6,666.45
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Important figures:
Cost
payback time
Feed-in payment
Ability of installers
We got quotes for about £12k for 4 kW installed, so £6.7 k for 1.1 kW seems a bit steep to me.
I'd also want to be sure they knew what they were doing. Could they answer your questions ? Can you talk to previous customers ?
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Spesh
Panel degradation varies a bit between manufacturers but is usually at least 10% over 20 years. What's more important is any warranty on the first 10 years while you're getting your money back from the feed-in tariff.
Most panels that are being sold are in the range of 175 - 190 Watts peak output. This is only relevant if you have very little roof space in which case the higher efficiency panels will enable you to get more output from a given area.
SMA Sunny Boy inverters are one of the two main reputable products, though there are some other perfectly adequate ones. The Sunnyboy can be used with free SMA software to display your output/record output data but I don't know how they link up - speak to your installer if that level of detail is of interest.
Regarding value, £3k/kWp is fine on large installs, but on a 1.14kWp array they've still got to rock up, erect scaffolding, order goods etc so I'd expect a figure approaching £5k minimum, bearing in mind that about a fifth of the price is VAT.
The FIT income will vary as the FIT payments are RPI linked, and free of income tax.
Similar to what Mal Volio says - focus on:
* Value (cost for an acceptable specification)
* track record/case studies (especially if you can talk to them)
* estimated annual generation
* installer credentials. If they are not accredited by the Microgeneration Certification Scheme (MCS) then the installation won't be eligible for feed in tariff payments. Are they members of the REAL Assurance scheme (see REAL Assurance Scheme (http://www.realassurance.org.uk/) )
What is the basis for the installers estimated energy production? If you divide the estimated FIT income (year 1) by the current FIT generation tariff (43.3p) and then by 1.14 you get a specific generation of 794kWh per kWp per annum. This sounds reasonable for a SSW facing array on a pitched roof without shading. I've managed more than that on a WSW facing array with partial shading so it sounds like your installer isn't over-egging the claims, though this will depend on your latitude (I'm in Oxfordshire).
Their figures for inflation Feed in Tariff and Inflation energy price seem a bit high at 10%, but this is arbitrary and beyond their control. Since FIT is RPI linked I'd assume FIT inflaction at <5% per annum.
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Robert Llewellyn's 10 grand system from British Gas: YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZyvjXHlBvA).
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I wonder what the addtional costs would be to install a Solar PV roof system on a new-build house.
There'd be economy of scale (on a housing development).
There's be no need for extra scaffolding as the roof-fitters would be trained to fit the panels (doesn't seem difficult).
Electricians would be on site.
It could add an insignificant amount to the cost of a new house.
Maybe half the roof could be PV panels and the other half a hot water system.
There's something very appealing about charging the battery of an electric car for free.
A 100 mile range would be perfectly adequate for a week for many people so charging in 1 day isn't necessarily a requirement..
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E.On for its customers is offering a 3.89kW solar system installed for £99 (+£210 if extra scaffolding from normal required) that you can use for 25 years.
They get a government subsidy, and I presume they don't let you earn money from power put back into the grid, but still it seems too good to be true. £99 is nothing. Is there a catch?
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Not really, but they're going to be taking all of the Feed In Tariffs, so on that size of installation in the South East, it would be at least £1,300 pa payment (increasing by RPI, not CPI).
The site specific quotes I've had, and all the general example ones I've seen, tend to look at around 10-11 years to pay back the installation costs, leaving you with perhaps 14-15 years of those payments.
That's why it's worth it for those companies to offer free (or almost free) installation. You'd get free use of the electricity being generated, just not the kick-back.
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@ Biggsy. No catch on the E.ON deal but as Adam said they take the FIT income, but also the risk of underperformance. However, over 25 years they'll make a reasonable profit even after cost of finance. I seem to recall someone calculated that at interest rates up to 7% it's still worth you borrowing the money yourself to fund it rather than have a "free PV" scheme.
The real catches are that these "free" schemes will only go for optimum sites - hence 3.89kW which is a lot of PV (approx 1kW is 8m2). The £99 admin fee is to weed out people who are seriously interested otherwise they'd be inundated with requests from people with little serious intention of buying.
FWIW my PV was installed by E.ON (I happen to work for them) though I paid myself and receive the FIT payments. Their FIT administration process is working well (I've had my install for over a year) with direct payments to my account every quarter. The installation took a couple of days.
Recommendation: If possible have the scaffolding put up on a Friday afternoon with the install to start on a Monday. That gives you the weekend to repoint your chimney/ridge tiles etc before they start.
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I think the £99 thing seems like a great deal for some people even if the spare juice is nicked. I'm thinking of people on a low income who won't qualify for a loan without risking their property, or afford to repay it.
Also, what about those who would use nearly all the power themselves?
I would be worried though if the roof ever needed work during the life of the solar panels. How much would it cost to have someone take them down and put them back up again? (Assuming one is too feeble or scared to DIY!).
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I think the £99 thing seems like a great deal for some people even if the spare juice is nicked. I'm thinking of people on a low income who won't qualify for a loan without risking their property, or afford to repay it.
Also, what about those who would use nearly all the power themselves?
I would be worried though if the roof ever needed work during the life of the solar panels. How much would it cost to have someone take them down and put them back up again? (Assuming one is too feeble or scared to DIY!).
Yes, you need to read the T's and C's well. Particularly questions like
1. Who is responsible for repairing breakdowns" as the inverter is likely to require replacement within the 25 years of the FIT. Since E.ON are taking the FIT income I'd imagine they'd want to replace it, but you need to check who picks up the cost.
2.Who owns the kit at the end of the FIT period, and is there any cost/admin fee at that time?
3. What are your obligations with regard to insurance (e.g. revaluing the rebuild value of your house?)
4. What happens if you sell the house?
etc
There are three benefits (ignoring smugness for a minute) of installing PV
1. FIT generation payment (43.3p/kWh) - this is paid for every kWh you generate - whether you use it on site or not. Either way, E.ON (or chosen "Free PV" provider) will still take the income.
2. FIT Export payment (3.1p/kWh) - this is paid for every kWh you export BUT for most domestic installations this will be deemed to be 50% of total generation.
3. The offset cost of imported kWh from the grid (i.e. your savings).
By comparison, I have a 3.5kWp array and relatively low usage, so the % of own generation that I use ranges from under 25% in peak summer to nearly 70% in December.
Hope that helps.
C
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bobbyllew today tweeted:
Indeed the Swallows have deposited some Watt sapping business on my Solar Panel and I have remonstrated with them most firmly!
Can bird poop be a serious problem?
...Especially when your neighbour puts out tons of bird food every day, so the area becomes Bird Mecca, meaning several birds (mainly pigeons) are perching on your roof all the time.
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On a typical pitch roof the panels seem to be pretty much self cleaning as far as I can tell from the ground. No noticeable turd related performance degradation!
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13-Year-Old Makes A Solar Breakthrough With Fibonacci Sequence
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2011/08/13-year-old-makes-solar-breakthrough-with-fibonacci-sequence.php
http://www.amnh.org/nationalcenter/youngnaturalistawards/2011/aidan.html
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I have just experienced the first example of total mis-selling of FIT installations. There are two houses local to me who have just had what look like 4kwh arrays installed. The roofs are ..............east facing. mmmm.
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I have just experienced the first example of total mis-selling of FIT installations. There are two houses local to me who have just had what look like 4kwh arrays installed. The roofs are ..............east facing. mmmm.
Mine is WSW - it's not a problem, you just get a lower output and longer payback, but I still generated nearly 3000 kWh in 12 months from a 3.5kW array, but it never does more than 2.85 because of the orientation. If it's east facing, you just get more generation in the morning, so you can put the dishwasher on after breakfast or load up the washing machine before you go out to work.
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I see that the Govt cocked up today and prematurely released the revised FIT figures; it's going down to 21p, which torpedoes the economics totally
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I see that the Govt cocked up today and prematurely released the revised FIT figures; it's going down to 21p, which torpedoes the economics totally
I doubt it was a cock up, rather a warning not to try and get on rapidly departing bandwagon.
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With the original object of giving a 5-6% return the new rates will not be too far off ( est 4%) because the install costs are dropping rapidly from @£16K a year ago to nearer £10K for a 4kW system. It looks like the new cutoff date is 8th Dec for the existing terms, installed, commissioned and paperwork submitted. It should be a major deterent for the rent a roof mob. It also looks like the bar is being raised for required installed energy saving measures, if you don't meet the requirements the rate will be even lower. These are only proposals from a PDF on the EST site, I downloaded it before it was removed but the timing would seem to fit in with the required 40 day notice of change. It may just be a ploy to gauge reaction but I doubt that.
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http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/
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"PRESS STATEMENT
In response to speculation on our position on the government’s review of Feed-in Tariffs, an Energy Saving Trust spokesperson said:
“We’ve been working on a draft consumer guidance document in relation to the Fast Track Review of Feed in Tariffs for Solar PV to pre-empt the Government consultation which is expected next week. Preparing advice on a potential announcement was the responsible thing to do as the leading consumer advice body in this area. Unfortunately, due to a technical error this document was made available for search.
“This is a work in progress document which is no longer on our web site and cannot be relied upon as the Government consultation has yet to be announced. Then and only then will we know the precise contents. We cannot confirm anything within our fact sheet until then.”
Ends"
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How could they possibly have decided the new rate when they haven't conducted the public consultation yet? :-)
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Even at at a FIT of 40p or whatever I still think the economics of this were marginal, and at 21p it seems to make little sense even with an install cost of say 10k. Either way it would rely on that FIT still being in place in 20 years time, and I have little confidence of that - or at least, that it would continue to be inflation-linked.
I've run the calculations every which-way, including compounding-up the FIT income etc, and I still reckon that you can find far better returns if you're happy to have your money tied up for 20 years
Given that I find the environmental case a bit sparse also, and that we'd have to apply for planning permission, then it looks as if this is the end of the road for our ambitions in this direction
My guess is that in a few years panel efficiencies will be much higher and install costs lower, and it might then be worth revisiting it.
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True, but having read through the original legislation for the FITs, these have the figures and RPI increases cast in stone.
Whilst it would not be beyond the realms of possibility to alter the rates for existing installations at some point down the line, it is very unusual for any Government to introduce retrospective legislation in this way, and realistically I couldn't see them getting away with it.
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There was a government minister (didn't catch the name) on You and Yours (R4) yesterday saying any changes to the FIT tariff would not affect those already registered. From what I gather this will likely also apply to anyone who is fully signed-up by December this year.
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Even at at a FIT of 40p or whatever I still think the economics of this were marginal, and at 21p it seems to make little sense even with an install cost of say 10k. Either way it would rely on that FIT still being in place in 20 years time, and I have little confidence of that - or at least, that it would continue to be inflation-linked.
This is precisely the conclusion I have come to after mulling over it for a year. The gamble is not so much on the stated payback terms but on whether you trust the government to stick to them.
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13-Year-Old Makes A Solar Breakthrough With Fibonacci Sequence
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2011/08/13-year-old-makes-solar-breakthrough-with-fibonacci-sequence.php
http://www.amnh.org/nationalcenter/youngnaturalistawards/2011/aidan.html
Sadly, an update: http://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/blog-debunks-13-year-olds-solar-power-breakthrough.html
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Sadly, an update: http://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/blog-debunks-13-year-olds-solar-power-breakthrough.html
Oops. The trees would have been ridiculously expensive to make anyway.
I like TreeHugger's upbeat comment:
The blog finally concludes with: "How did this confused science project became international news?"
While I can't do the calculations to prove or disprove the teen's science experiment, I can answer this question. Because we all love hearing about teens doing interesting, cool things in school. Because we all enjoy knowing that children still take an interest in something other than video games. Because it's exciting to hear that a teenager is thinking about things we care about. Because we would trust that when a teen gets an award from the American Museum of Natural History, then he's probably right, or at least right enough, to write about. Because he seems cool, and we like that.
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Even at at a FIT of 40p or whatever I still think the economics of this were marginal, and at 21p it seems to make little sense even with an install cost of say 10k. Either way it would rely on that FIT still being in place in 20 years time, and I have little confidence of that - or at least, that it would continue to be inflation-linked.
This is precisely the conclusion I have come to after mulling over it for a year. The gamble is not so much on the stated payback terms but on whether you trust the government to stick to them.
We had a bloke round the other week. I don't really like the idea of other consumers subsidising a high FIT, and I also envisage problems with the installation in terms of buggering up the slates. Which as the change in the tarrif rates will probably put the installers out of business would be down to me to sort out.
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I was all costed up and quoted out, poised with pen and chequebook to sign up on Friday last week when the news broke. My installer (the one with the best quote - £3.50/W and the one I trust most) cannot deliver by the 8th Dec so the deal is off. Second choice is more expensive, can deliver, but I have some reservations about the over budget quote and I have lost faith in the gubbinment not to pull out the rug in the future when paying that price.
Being a slightly more complicated install, mine would have been at the more expensive end of the available spectrum. Break even on 43.3p FIT vs another investment available to me for the same money would have been around 14 years - note, this is not the same as "paying for itself" which would have been 8.5 years, but reaching the same actual capital+return values. At 21p, it comes in at over 21 years with generous assumptions!
I suspect the thing to do is to wait until the costs fall a lot more, as indeed they will, so that the installation is cost effective on a lower and sustainable FIT, if a FIT is still necessary.
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I was talking to a person who runs a renewable energy business (an electrician who also does solar). He said that in his experience (a lot of fixing existing installations) the returns were not as good as anticipated because:
a) inverters fail relatively quickly and are expensive
b) the panels don't standup to a Scottish climate terribly well. (or to be precise, the fittings that come with them)
c) Scotland. Sunshine. lack of.
So whilst he wouldn't advise me to not go down that route if I was so inclined he suggested that if it broke even over the lifetime of the panels then I shoudl consider it a bonus.
So that will be a resounding NO then. Which is a shame.
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Some friends of mine in Rugby had solar in September 2010. Because of a willow tree on public land it meant that their calculations expected payback in 25 years. they were still happy to proceed. The willow tree had to be severely pollarded in September this year after a couple of large branches fell into the road and onto a public footpath. The differences this past three months compared to last year are startling. Of course they don't have enough data yet but their installer revised the original calcs based upon the tree no longer being there and they now get payback in fifteen years.
The payback calculation is interesting because you get paid for generating electricity as well as a feed in tariff. Apparently it works out better for them to use their generated juice rather than feed it in. I cannot remember the exact deal but as one of them is home a lot they tend to do the washing etc. during sunny days rather than by economy 7.