Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Rides and Touring => Cyclosportives and commercial or charity rides => Topic started by: Philip Whiteman on 09 June, 2011, 12:03:35 pm
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Perhaps I am a sad and sick individual by gloating, but is'nt it amusing to watch a verbal punch up about a disasterious sportive just to remind you why the commercialisation of cycle events is a bad idea.
Are The Dragon Ride Organisers Listening? | Sportives/Audaxes/Training Rides | Road | Forums - BikeRadar (http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12782598)
To Those Who Cut Into The Dragon Queue... | Sportives/Audaxes/Training Rides | Road | Forums - BikeRadar (http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12781985)
Dragon Ride-UCI Golden Bike World Series Status Not Deserved | Sportives/Audaxes/Training Rides | Road | Forums - BikeRadar (http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12781853)
I just feel sorry for the poor sods that coughed up a wodge to enter this event amongst others.
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I'm loving this comment on Bike Radar.
Sure, the route wasn't terribly exciting but I'm not sure many in Britain would be. It's hard to expect something akin to a European sportive given the terrain here.
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To Those Who Cut Into The Dragon Queue... | Sportives/Audaxes/Training Rides | Road | Forums - BikeRadar (http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12781985)
Bet they were the f'in Audaxers ;)
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I can't be bothered to go through all of those threads (the second is very long), but what I've read of it wouldn't exact encourage me to participate, and indeed, after reading all that, I'd avoid it like the plague!
I've done a smattering of large rides, but mostly things like the London Freewheel (The Sky-whatever these days), otherwise I've only done rides which top at just over one hundred riders (the FNRttCs). That many people, some of who clearly aren't behaving that well, and what doesn't sound like appropriate organisation for an event of that scale, makes me think that there's little reason to get involved in Sportives in general, and that specific event in particular.
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We need a 'Boutique Sportive' movement, with small fields which can use our extensive network of small roads without creating a fuss. It would chime well with aspects of the retrobike culture. Maybe we could even get Rapha involved.
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We need a 'Boutique Sportive' movement, with small fields which can use our extensive network of small roads without creating a fuss. It would chime well with aspects of the retrobike culture. Maybe we could even get Rapha involved.
Hmmm and what could we call this type of event I wonder. Any suggestions?
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We need a 'Boutique Sportive' movement, with small fields which can use our extensive network of small roads without creating a fuss. It would chime well with aspects of the retrobike culture. Maybe we could even get Rapha involved.
Hmmm and what could we call this type of event I wonder. Any suggestions?
'Sportique'; like an Audax but 10 times the price.
I'll sell you a 'Sportique' bike if you want, it 's got a Carradice Barley with carbon fibre and Titianium fittings as standard, there are even some carbon fibre cable ties included, and a carbon fibre toestrap with a ti buckle holding the spare tyre on.
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;D I think you shouldn't talk about it too much, ESL - someone will nick your idea and be off planning such an exclusive event already. In fact, I think I can hear the hype being stoked up right now!
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I'd best patent it. Sportique tm.
Although to be fair Rapha did have a go with 'The Continental'
Rapha Continental | Rapha (http://www.rapha.cc/rapha-continental)
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To Those Who Cut Into The Dragon Queue... | Sportives/Audaxes/Training Rides | Road | Forums - BikeRadar (http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12781985)
Bet they were the f'in Audaxers ;)
Second post is: "I expect they were the same considerate folk who dropped gel wrappers all over the place..."
Can't be audaxers then, those tight bastards wouldn't fork-out on Gels, besides, they make your beard all sticky ;)
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I'd best patent it. Sportique tm.
Although to be fair Rapha did have a go with 'The Continental'
Rapha Continental | Rapha (http://www.rapha.cc/rapha-continental)
Time to repost this then: Jahvahaah - Not enough cool to go around (http://internationale.teamjva.com/)
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I rode it and enjoyed it. Each to his own.
I am doing an Audax on Saturday ,will cost me double ethe Dragon price with fuel to get there cafe stops etc but what price is a good day out?
The Dragon organizers certainly need to have a rethink but with 4000 entrants from 37 countries it obviously has appeal. It sold out in 22 hours this year.
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To Those Who Cut Into The Dragon Queue... | Sportives/Audaxes/Training Rides | Road | Forums - BikeRadar (http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12781985)
Bet they were the f'in Audaxers ;)
Second post is: "I expect they were the same considerate folk who dropped gel wrappers all over the place..."
Can't be audaxers then, those tight bastards wouldn't fork-out on Gels, besides, they make your beard all sticky ;)
True Audaxers tuck their gel wrappers under their shorts legs for proper disposal later. Even when they're indulging in the very rare competitive Audaxing, as at 5mins.45sec in this film.
YouTube
- John Warnock, Mersey Roads 24, 2010‏
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW4o2ppA9Dw)
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I am doing an Audax on Saturday ,will cost me double ethe Dragon price with fuel to get there cafe stops etc but what price is a good day out?
Indeed. Reminds me about a similar conversation I was having during a recent 600km Audax:-
£12 entry fee.
£30 train tickets to/from the start (~300km each way).
£60 hotel on Friday and Sunday nights.
£30 on food during the event (not bad for ~15,000kcal).
= £132
Plus probably £5 of wear and tear on the bike (~£100 a year for 10,000km is about right).
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I'd best patent it. Sportique tm.
Although to be fair Rapha did have a go with 'The Continental'
Rapha Continental | Rapha (http://www.rapha.cc/rapha-continental)
Time to repost this then: Jahvahaah - Not enough cool to go around (http://internationale.teamjva.com/)
I'd not seen that, very funny, and a nod to Jens Voigt, what could be better?
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Time to repost this then: Jahvahaah - Not enough cool to go around (http://internationale.teamjva.com/)
Brilliant. Hadn't seen that!
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Even when they're indulging in the very rare competitive Audaxing, as at 5mins.45sec in this film.
YouTube
- John Warnock, Mersey Roads 24, 2010‏
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW4o2ppA9Dw)
I met John at the Barry's Bristol Ball Bash. He was riding a fixed with an obscene chain ring of 56 or something similar and riding at equally obscene pace. I take my hat off to him.
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Second post is: "I expect they were the same considerate folk who dropped gel wrappers all over the place..."
Can't be audaxers then, those tight bastards wouldn't fork-out on Gels, besides, they make your beard all sticky ;)
True Audaxers tuck their gel wrappers under their short legs for proper disposal later. Even when they're indulging in the very rare competitive Audaxing, as at 5mins.45sec in this film.
YouTube
- John Warnock, Mersey Roads 24, 2010‏
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW4o2ppA9Dw)
:thumbsup: What a gent.
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a clubmate did this ride;
he did the 70km route with 4500 ft (????) of climb;
I can do that from my house for £2.50 and get AAA
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a clubmate did this ride;
he did the 70km route with 4500 ft (????) of climb;
I can do that from my house for £2.50 and get AAA
You can get to climb Bwlch and Rhigos in a 70km loop from East Sussex?
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Perhaps I am a sad and sick individual by gloating, but is'nt it amusing to watch a verbal punch up about a disasterious sportive just to remind you why the commercialisation of cycle events is a bad idea. Viva Audax.
It's this kind of smug, superior attitude that puts me off audax. The Tour de France was started as a stunt to sell newspapers in 1903 FFS.
I rode it with a group of clubmates, many of whom who hadn't done it before. My timing chip didn't appear to work, but I'm not too bothered - it's not a race after all. To me it's a great day out - challenging route, spectacular views, a chance to meet up with old cycling friends from all over the country, and my £32 is well-spent on food & drink when I need it, marshalls & medical cover. I'm not a big sportive fan - this one is the only one I do, because it's such a great event practically on my doorstep.
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The organisation sounds utterly sh!t.
They had 4000 competitors and it took 2hours to get started?
I've done the Great North Run a couple of times. That has 54 000 runners, costs SFA to enter and starts on time. Takes maybe 30min for the last people to get past the start line, but that's just a function of how long it takes 54000 people to jog past a point.
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They had 4000 competitors and it took 2hours to get started?
So - about 10x the number of riders of the 2009 LEL; where it took a similar amount of time to register, AFAIA.
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Can't be audaxers then, those tight bastards wouldn't fork-out on Gels, besides, they make your beard all sticky ;)
You are almost right but instead the audaxer would simply rub the gel into their beard before starting the event and then suck out all the goodness en-route.
Actually, thinking about that thought makes me feel rather ill.
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I've done the Great North Run a couple of times. That has 54 000 runners, costs SFA to enter and starts on time. Takes maybe 30min for the last people to get past the start line, but that's just a function of how long it takes 54000 people to jog past a point.
Does the Great North Run have closed roads? Obviously you can't just set off 3,800 cyclists onto open roads in a steady stream - they have to be set off in groups, at short intervals. This year the groups where much smaller for some reason (I suspect simply due to the judgment of the marshall at the start) than the 100+ I've experienced in previous years.
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It has closed roads.
I still think the organisation sounds bad. Too few toilets for one thing (4 for 400people? seriously?)
Get rid of registration. It's slow and causes huge queues.
People pay their fee, get a number/transponder sent by post. Pre-nominate an estimated target time. At the start, you get in your group. Your start time is allocated by the group start time - if you are in the wrong group, tough.
People are more spread out at the finish and this is where individual finishing times need to be recorded, either by swiping a transponder or a bib number recorded.
Sure people can cheat (by nominating a longer estimate time then setting off with a fast group that starts earlier). But it isn't a race and they are only cheating themselves.
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a clubmate did this ride;
he did the 70km route with 4500 ft (????) of climb;
I can do that from my house for £2.50 and get AAA
You can get to climb Bwlch and Rhigos in a 70km loop from East Sussex?
better; The Wall and Toy's Hill
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Can't be audaxers then, those tight bastards wouldn't fork-out on Gels, besides, they make your beard all sticky ;)
You are almost right but instead the audaxer would simply rub the gel into their beard before starting the event and then suck out all the goodness en-route.
What happens if I forget my gels? At present my mate often has a spare.......surly sucking ones own beard is okay...but....
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On a more serious point, any organiser setting off this number off riders onto a public road at an event has got to pushing the barriers a tad too far. I have ridden sportives where the limit has been a bit more responsible.
Aside from the obvious discomfort to the participants involved, the organisers should deliberate concertively about the political ramifications of their actions. Police and highways authorities could easily adopt a negative view to events that yield this number of riders into traffic on open roads. The resulting actions would have implications for all events.
Police already have powers to forbid the racing of bicycles on the open road under the Cycle Racing on the Highways Regulations 1960. Races and time trials are strictly governed by BC & CTT with whom the Police negotiate. Equally AUK restricts its events from breaching these statutes by forbidding racing. Sportives are not governed and events such as the Dragon Ride feel that they can have carte blanche.
Unfortunately, some sportives occupy a grey area created which could fall foul of this legislation through the ranking of riders. This by default could cause authorities to classify the events as races. In the instance of the Dragon Ride, I note that they rank the fastest finishers and it could therefore easily deemed a race and vulnerable to existing legislation.
It will only take a serious fatility. A move to prevent such events would cause untold damage on other responsible sportive events. Even worse would be a restriction placed on all forms of cycling events, audax included.
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They had 4000 competitors and it took 2hours to get started?
So - about 10x the number of riders of the 2009 LEL; where it took a similar amount of time to register, AFAIA.
I know, I was at the back of that queue. Until it occured to me that I was an AUK member as well, and got behind the desk to help sort stuff out. That's the joy of volunteer-run events, anyone can pitch in.
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is there a maximum speed on sportives? that's how Audax and Reliability trials get round it
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is there a maximum speed on sportives?
In one word, no. But it is not speed that is the problem. The problem lays with the publication of times where the riders can be ranked in order of finishing. Sensible sportive organisers don't provide that facility or at the very least they produce bandings. AUK do even better by only publishing successful finishers.
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It's this kind of smug, superior attitude that puts me off audax.
I've some sympathy with Rhys's comment. Have we not done the Audax vs Sportive thing to death? I much prefer Audax, & if I was fast enough to be towards the front of Sportives I'd rather go road racing, where IMO it is done "properly" with sensibly sized fields, commisaires etc. But like Rhys if a Sportive is on my doorstep I will very probably ride it.
You can get to climb Bwlch and Rhigos in a 70km loop from East Sussex?
You can get to climb those two and more on "Down with the British", more of a 200k loop though. ;D
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I still think the organisation sounds bad. Too few toilets for one thing (4 for 400people? seriously?)
You shouldn't believe everything you read. I think this was a reference to the toilets in the car park. There were plenty more in the start/finish village, alongside the barriers at the start, and at all 3 feed stations.
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It will only take a serious fatility.
Most fatalities are, I think you'll find, rather serious to those involved. ;)
I don't know what the local police think (and the police in the Vale of Glamorgan are a law unto themselves when it comes to cyclists), but I'm always pleasantly surprised at the number of people sitting in their gardens, watching the spectacle go past and cheering the riders on. I think the police's only objection was riders jumping red lights, hence the marshalls at key junctions to take down numbers. What concerns me more is the number of people riding without entering, or under someone else's name - an accident involving those could be trouble for the organisers.
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What concerns me more is the number of people riding ......under someone else's name - an accident involving those could be trouble for the organisers.
I don't know what the problem would be if there was such an accident. Surely, an
ambulance would turned up and take the injured rider to hospital, the rider would
(hopefully) get better in time, and that would be it.
I know someone will come on say "what about the insurance implications?". Well, if there
are any, could someone please explain them to me?
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I've done the Great North Run a couple of times. That has 54 000 runners, costs SFA to enter and starts on time..
Doesn't the Great North Run cost over £40 to enter?
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They had 4000 competitors and it took 2hours to get started?
So - about 10x the number of riders of the 2009 LEL; where it took a similar amount of time to register, AFAIA.
I'm pretty sure riders complained about that (maybe not 4000, admittedly).
I'm always up for a bit of sportive-bashing, but to be fair:
LEL09:
- registration disaster as Chris mentions,
- start times not policed, so some riders 'gained' 40 minutes or more (but technically no q-jumping, cos AUKs are never rude!)
PBP:
- 20minute queues for food at some controls
- massive q-jumping at the start, which annoyed people who arrived 2hrs before start [not me, I arrived an hour after the start]
So I suspect all big events are prone to problems. Although some of the issues under discussion are brought on themselves by sportifs (or is that sportivists ?)
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What concerns me more is the number of people riding ......under someone else's name - an accident involving those could be trouble for the organisers.
I don't know what the problem would be if there was such an accident. Surely, an
ambulance would turned up and take the injured rider to hospital, the rider would
(hopefully) get better in time, and that would be it.
I know someone will come on say "what about the insurance implications?". Well, if there
are any, could someone please explain them to me?
I dont know about insurance but if you ride under someone elses name and have an accident the registered persons next of kin could be told their nearest and dearest is in hospital when in fact you are and they are down the pub.
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An unbiased and entirely non partisan 'review' here ;)
http://www.cyclosport.org/07-Jun-2011/news/the-wiggle-dragon-ride-wales-review.html (http://www.cyclosport.org/07-Jun-2011/news/the-wiggle-dragon-ride-wales-review.html)
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I am doing an Audax on Saturday ,will cost me double ethe Dragon price with fuel to get there cafe stops etc but what price is a good day out?
Indeed. Reminds me about a similar conversation I was having during a recent 600km Audax:-
£12 entry fee.
£30 train tickets to/from the start (~300km each way).
£60 hotel on Friday and Sunday nights.
£30 on food during the event (not bad for ~15,000kcal).
= £132
Plus probably £5 of wear and tear on the bike (~£100 a year for 10,000km is about right).
This is what I came to see as the 'hidden' cost of audax.
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Perhaps I am a sad and sick individual by gloating, but is'nt it amusing to watch a verbal punch up about a disasterious sportive just to remind you why the commercialisation of cycle events is a bad idea. Viva Audax.
It's this kind of smug, superior attitude that puts me off audax. The Tour de France was started as a stunt to sell newspapers in 1903 FFS.
I'm with you on this. I don't like the 'I do this type of riding and you're stupid because you do something else' attitude at all, whether what you do is sportive, audax, TT, crits, CTC rides or riding to the shop.
tbh Audax costs me a fortune unless I DIY due to the massive travelling costs, so I don't do much. I can ride some significant hills & scenic routes without paying for any entry fee - it's a public road. I choose to engage in whatever I want to engage in.
All that is important: whatever you ride, as long as you do
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Unless the sportives are nearby they ave travelling costs too. Looking at the list of costs of an Audax upthread, surely only the food is the difference. Plus you'd have to eat something during a day anyway.
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I am doing an Audax on Saturday ,will cost me double ethe Dragon price with fuel to get there cafe stops etc but what price is a good day out?
Indeed. Reminds me about a similar conversation I was having during a recent 600km Audax:-
£12 entry fee.
£30 train tickets to/from the start (~300km each way).
£60 hotel on Friday and Sunday nights.
£30 on food during the event (not bad for ~15,000kcal).
= £132
Plus probably £5 of wear and tear on the bike (~£100 a year for 10,000km is about right).
This is what I came to see as the 'hidden' cost of audax.
Greenbank is probably referring to the Bryan Chapman 600 which is a fairly extreme 2 day Audax event.
A 600km Sportive would incur some considerable costs I imagine.
Don't forget you get a night's accomodation thrown in for free on the Bryan Chapman (or 2 hours depending on who you are) as well as free food at some controls.
A 200km Audax is more akin to a Sportive and they really only cost the small entry fee if they are local.
Ride to the start, take some sarnies, ride to end and ride home. £5.
If you weren't riding all day then you'd probably be spending more money at Homebase or the Garden Centre anyway.
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Yes, but when people here are putting down sportives based on how expense they are, it needs to b put in perpective. For me, a 200 km audax vs 200 km sportive might be:
£5 entry vs £40 (I think the Dragon ride is one of the most expensive)
£75 train fare
£30 friday night accommodation (very late train in the evening after the event)
£15 on food vs £not much
Total £125 vs £145 - so not actually much in it considering they would both be over £100. Doesn't make audax look cheap, unless you live somewhere a lot of rides start.
But my point was that there is no need to sneer at the way other people choose to particpate in cycling. Putting sportives down doesn't make audax seem more welcoming. There can be a lot of snobbery and cliquiness in audaxing that might put people off it were the first thing new people encounter. It's not always like that, but I've come across a lot of it.
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Indeed, that was my point, by the time you add up all of the other costs (accommodation, travel, food, etc) the difference in entry fees (£5 vs £40) becomes a lot less significant.
Sure you can cycle to/from the start of events, take your own food, wild camp and mill you own inner tubes out of cow parsley but that's not the point of the comparison.
P.S. It doesn't matter what 600 it was, I was trying not to name it because it's unimportant what specific 600 it was (and it wasn't the BCM anyway).
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Whichever 600 it was the principal is the same. We were looked after on that ride as well ;). I've spent quite a lot driving round the country to do Audax events, but it'd be pretty similar if I was driving off to Sportives. And I bought a bike, which I had to pay for.
In a previous life I learned to fly. My brother likes participating in motor sport. Some freinds & relations seem to enjoy golf (which has always confused me, I wouldn't know which end to hold the bat). The expense involved in many other pastimes makes our Audax / Sportive / whatever form of cycling expenditure pale into insignificance.
Next year I plan to drive to only 1 event, I'll ride to the rest :smug:
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It is a good point though about the distance. I was comparing my experience of 600k and 400k audax vs a 200k sportive. If it was like for like then the audax on cost alone wins hands down for the lesser expense.
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I found the BikeRadar thread very useful - I've learned a new cliché:
Dentist on a Pinarello
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It is a good point though about the distance. I was comparing my experience of 600k and 400k audax vs a 200k sportive. If it was like for like then the audax on cost alone wins hands down for the lesser expense.
I forgot that some people spend a lot of money travelling to non-local 200km Auaxes. In that case the difference between Audax and Sportives wouldn't bother me. The cost of Sportives doesn't bother me anyway, if that's what they cost then that's what they cost. As mentioned above there are far more expensive hobbies.
I've never done a 200 Audax that I can't drive to or cycle to the morning of the ride so that keeps my Audax costs down.
The main drawback of Sportives seems to be the complete lack of a Full-English Breakfast option at any of their controls.
Note. What I do find staggering though is when you multiply the number of sportive riders on a prestigious event by the entry fee. You get some very large sums of money involved. Does all the money go back into the organisation (marshalls/insurance/admin/tech) or are these events profit-making?
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They're profit-driven, usually. Even if sometimes that profit goes to a charity.
Nothing wrong with that, and nothing wrong too if they're criticised when they fail to deliver.
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I found the BikeRadar thread very useful - I've learned a new cliché:
Dentist on a Pinarello
Yep, what a great a cliche. So are dentists the new estate agents?
And what about an audaxer:
Academic/social worker/geography teacher on a Mercian.
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I found the BikeRadar thread very useful - I've learned a new cliché:
Dentist on a Pinarello
Yep, what a great a cliche. So are dentists the new estate agents?
And what about an audaxer:
Academic/social worker/geography teacher on a Mercian.
Hedgelayer/ Film maker on a Hewitt in my case, but that is a very small part of the sample.
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I found the BikeRadar thread very useful - I've learned a new cliché:
Dentist on a Pinarello
Yep, what a great a cliche. So are dentists the new estate agents?
And what about an audaxer:
Academic/social worker/geography teacher on a Mercian.
IT worker on a Pompino?
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I am doing an Audax on Saturday ,will cost me double ethe Dragon price with fuel to get there cafe stops etc but what price is a good day out?
Indeed. Reminds me about a similar conversation I was having during a recent 600km Audax:-
£12 entry fee.
£30 train tickets to/from the start (~300km each way).
£60 hotel on Friday and Sunday nights.
£30 on food during the event (not bad for ~15,000kcal).
= £132
Plus probably £5 of wear and tear on the bike (~£100 a year for 10,000km is about right).
This is what I came to see as the 'hidden' cost of audax.
To avoid this you could organise (and ride) an event that starts near where you live.
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The main drawback of Sportives seems to be the complete lack of a Full-English Breakfast option at any of their controls.
[/quote]
;D
I did a sportive a year or so ago, one of the end of season 'Cotswold Something or other', and at the first feed station they were doing bacon sandwiches. Times went out of the window and most settled in for a long stay and an enjoyable feed!
I do handful of sportives a year versus lots of audax. Virtually all are well organised and enjoyable. You pays your money and makes your choice....
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IT worker on a Pompino?
Builder on an Enigma
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I am doing an Audax on Saturday ,will cost me double ethe Dragon price with fuel to get there cafe stops etc but what price is a good day out?
Indeed. Reminds me about a similar conversation I was having during a recent 600km Audax:-
£12 entry fee.
£30 train tickets to/from the start (~300km each way).
£60 hotel on Friday and Sunday nights.
£30 on food during the event (not bad for ~15,000kcal).
= £132
Plus probably £5 of wear and tear on the bike (~£100 a year for 10,000km is about right).
This is what I came to see as the 'hidden' cost of audax.
To avoid this you could organise (and ride) an event that starts near where you live.
Here! Here!
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Or just not bother. ;D
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I rode this event at the weekend largely because I wanted to enter a huge mass participation event and in that regard, it didn't disappoint.
If i'm honest, I don't ride a large number of events, mainly due to the associated costs - hotels etc.
I tend to do most of my riding close to home and if there is a cheap event on, I may enter.
I knew when I entered that with 4000 people, there would be delays at the start and food might run out at the feed stations, so I arrived as early as I could (and still waited an hour) and carried enough food that I was self sufficient.
I thought the course was well signposted, which meant I could concentrate on riding and enjoying the route.
The food stops were well stocked and the helpers all seemed to be really cheery which was nice to see. The marshalls were helpful and the motorcycle outriders did a fantastic job - I overheard one chatting to a motorist when we were waiting at a junction and he seemed to be doing a great PR job.
The thing I enjoyed most was riding en masse and seeing the local community come out to support us. There were loads of people clapping along the route and a good 50 spectators at the top of the Bwlch, cheering us on, which was much appreciated.
Sure, there were a few idiots riding but I just steered clear of them. I've read about the accidents (and witnessed one) but you can't really blame the organiser for this. If people are stupid enough to go full pace into corners for which they have no prior knowledge on road surface etc, then they take their own chances.
You can complain about the cost but if you don't want to pay, don't sign up. I think the issue is that people have different expectations of value for money. I went in with low expectations and was pleasantly surprised at how well the day went. I was a little ticked off about the timing fiasco but I have a Garmin which logged my time so all i've really lost is a few bragging rights.
I'll be signing up again next year I reckon and so is my other half, who is relatively new to cycling. I know that even though she won't want us riding together, she'll be well looked after throughout and I won't have the same fears that I would have if she was doing a similar ride solo.
It's a shame that people have to put down other groups within cycling. I enjoy all aspects of the sport and think as long as people are on 2 wheels and enjoying themselves, that's all that matters. Live and let live.
I would imagine any event of this size would have it's faults regardless of who was organising it.
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This point you made is interesting.
I'll be signing up again next year I reckon and so is my other half, who is relatively new to cycling. I know that even though she won't want us riding together, she'll be well looked after throughout and I won't have the same fears that I would have if she was doing a similar ride solo.
I've persisted with Audax for that reason, among others. It was always frustrating to do day rides and tours with Heather, I'd end up going too slow and she'd end up feeling pressured to go too quick. She doesn't like the idea of a tandem so Audax does what you describe.
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Audax doesn't look after the rider though.
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This point you made is interesting.
I'll be signing up again next year I reckon and so is my other half, who is relatively new to cycling. I know that even though she won't want us riding together, she'll be well looked after throughout and I won't have the same fears that I would have if she was doing a similar ride solo.
I've persisted with Audax for that reason, among others. It was always frustrating to do day rides and tours with Heather, I'd end up going too slow and she'd end up feeling pressured to go too quick. She doesn't like the idea of a tandem so Audax does what you describe.
We went out together yesterday for 30 miles and it was nice to be together but a slow ride for me. If it was an actual event, i'd have been frustrated.
I think organised events be it audax, sportives or whatever, offer the flexibility for couples to ride and enjoy an event at their own pace. The only added bonus that sportives have over audaxes, is a fully signposted route and a broom wagon/mechanical support which for the sake of a few quid offers peace of mind.
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It's a shame that people have to put down other groups within cycling. I enjoy all aspects of the sport and think as long as people are on 2 wheels and enjoying themselves, that's all that matters. Live and let live.
Here here.
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This point you made is interesting.
I'll be signing up again next year I reckon and so is my other half, who is relatively new to cycling. I know that even though she won't want us riding together, she'll be well looked after throughout and I won't have the same fears that I would have if she was doing a similar ride solo.
I've persisted with Audax for that reason, among others. It was always frustrating to do day rides and tours with Heather, I'd end up going too slow and she'd end up feeling pressured to go too quick. She doesn't like the idea of a tandem so Audax does what you describe.
We went out together yesterday for 30 miles and it was nice to be together but a slow ride for me. If it was an actual event, i'd have been frustrated.
I think organised events be it audax, sportives or whatever, offer the flexibility for couples to ride and enjoy an event at their own pace. The only added bonus that sportives have over audaxes, is a fully signposted route and a broom wagon/mechanical support which for the sake of a few quid offers peace of mind.
Heather has got a lot of stamina and is a good navigator, so she sometimes gathers a 'Lantern Rouge' group. She's made some good friends over the years. I ride in a very inconsistent way, which means that I get to film lots of different people. I only ride at a consistent pace when I need a consistent subject in shot. Often this means that I get the bonus of some very good company. Sometimes I drop all the way back to Heather if I think she might like some company or a bit of help into a headwind.
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It's a shame that people have to put down other groups within cycling. I enjoy all aspects of the sport and think as long as people are on 2 wheels and enjoying themselves, that's all that matters. Live and let live.
Here here.
+1 I dont want to be part of the 'back slappers cycling elite club' but just ride my bike!
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Whilst applauding people enjoying a sporting activity, as a cycling community I feel we have to recognise there is a risk that the increasing volume of events and field sizes will result in organised cycling events being, at best, regulated.
As an audax rider (and organiser), it's perfectly legitimate to worry about this prospect, given any regulations are unlikely to distinguish between a sportive and an audax event.
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As an audax rider (and organiser), it's perfectly legitimate to worry about this prospect, given any regulations are unlikely to distinguish between a sportive and an audax event.
Perhaps Audax will become an underground organisation like time trialling used to be and we'll all be using coded courses for events to prevent this from happening. That combined with the SAE entry system should keep things nice and quiet.
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As an audax rider (and organiser), it's perfectly legitimate to worry about this prospect, given any regulations are unlikely to distinguish between a sportive and an audax event.
I mainly agree with you, but most Sportives are overt races, whereas Audaxes aren't; so there is a simple distinction available for the authorities/lawmakers/enforcers.
<that should flush out a few nitpickers ... >
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As an audax rider (and organiser), it's perfectly legitimate to worry about this prospect, given any regulations are unlikely to distinguish between a sportive and an audax event.
I mainly agree with you, but most Sportives are overt races, whereas Audaxes aren't; so there is a simple distinction available for the authorities/lawmakers/enforcers.
<that should flush out a few nitpickers ... >
Yep, I refer back to my earlier message on racing legislation and the publication of ranked results.
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I think sportive organisers get around it by publicising results but not ranking them in order but providing the user with the facility to sort results by time, therefore ranking them personally.
Like providing a gun and bullets but not firing the weapon themselves.
Think accessory to race, rather than race.....
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As an audax rider (and organiser), it's perfectly legitimate to worry about this prospect, given any regulations are unlikely to distinguish between a sportive and an audax event.
I mainly agree with you, but most Sportives are overt races, whereas Audaxes aren't; so there is a simple distinction available for the authorities/lawmakers/enforcers.
<that should flush out a few nitpickers ... >
Audax rides do not exist as such, riders are out on a private excursion obeying the highway code. All the organiser does is suggest a route between controls and provide cake at some of them;
regulate that...
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Audax rides do not exist as such, riders are out on a private excursion obeying the highway code. All the organiser does is suggest a route between controls and provide cake at some of them;
regulate that...
Actually, LEL is making itself known to the police, loud and clear.
There's no way I'm going to put my neck on the line for a bike ride.
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Audax rides do not exist as such, riders are out on a private excursion obeying the highway code. All the organiser does is suggest a route between controls and provide cake at some of them;
regulate that...
Actually, LEL is making itself known to the police, loud and clear.
There's no way I'm going to put my neck on the line for a bike ride.
Matter of interest, what is their response? Are they generally helpful and supportive, or do you hear a sharp intake of breath?
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Helpful and supportive. I say the magic words 'it's not a race, it's just a ride' and they're cool. I suspect that one day I'll be asked for meetings or risk assessments, but that's fine.
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On the subject of the gels; maybe the organisers could provide bins by the marshalls and/or insist that riders return as many packets as they went out with, or no finishing position is awarded. I can see why people don't want to carry a sticky empty gel pouch (the damn things should be banned outside pro events IMO since they're such a temptation to litter), but there are ways round this, such as carrying a small freezer bag to put the remains in.
Disclaimer: I was given a gel once by a fellow rider on the Dun Run and it tasted vile.
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Too salty?
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Helpful and supportive. I say the magic words 'it's not a race, it's just a ride' and they're cool. I suspect that one day I'll be asked for meetings or risk assessments, but that's fine.
Don't forget that we have our own transparent risk assessment procedure on here. LEL - Road Surface on B709 (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=18528.0) The main issue is how we disseminate that kind of information to all participants.
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I can see why people don't want to carry a sticky empty gel pouch (the damn things should be banned outside pro events IMO since they're such a temptation to litter), but there are ways round this, such as carrying a small freezer bag to put the remains in.
A lot of the Topeak seat packs have a mesh area on one side. I find it handy to stuff gel wrappers in there to avoid that stickiness in the pocket. But of paramount importance when using a gel or considering using any item with a wrapper for that matter - one SHALL NOT LITTER. Pure and simple.
Littering is pure ignorance and there is no excuse.
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the people that throw litter on rides are filthy pigs; pure and simple. The only Audax I've ever seen this on was the Tour of the Hills which attracts a large proportion of riders that don't do other Audax events.
I don't know if sportive riders think their high entry fee covers someone to go and clear up after them; it doesn't.
Take your litter with you or take 10 seconds to find a bin like the rest of us >:(
or eat bananas?
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They are no better than the wind the car window down merchants, or flytippers. Lazy, ignorant fucks.
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Admittedly, the state of UK road verges is now so vile that they probably think it won't make much difference. We're not quite down to Portugese levels though; there is wind-blown litter everywhere you look in the Algarve.
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Admittedly, the state of UK road verges is now so vile that they probably think it won't make much difference. We're not quite down to Portugese levels though; there is wind-blown litter everywhere you look in the Algarve.
The Algarve, a favourite of British tourists and ex-pats? :-X
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I don't give a shit about Portugal. I live here. Littering and fly tipping and to a lesser degree poor recycling is pure and utter ignorance and or laziness. Scum.
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What concerns me more is the number of people riding without entering...
Sweet jesus, member of the public uses public road while it is open! I guess the tabloids might go crazy with it though.
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What concerns me more is the number of people riding without entering...
Sweet jesus, member of the public uses public road while it is open! I guess the tabloids might go crazy with it though.
A friend of mine didnt know it was on and got quite a shock when they started catching her on the Rhigos ;D
I wouldnt deliberately ride the route without entering but as you say theres no legal reason not to.
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What concerns me more is the number of people riding without entering...
Sweet jesus, member of the public uses public road while it is open! I guess the tabloids might go crazy with it though.
if the ride's full and people just turn up on the day who cares? as long as it does not make the event more overcrowded and dangerous (as happens on the L2B) they can't charge for atmosphere
on the French ones I've ridden they have a more draconian approach; your number has a tear off tag, if you try and get anywhere near the start (public road or no) without one the gendarmes don't let you in...
just went back over to Sportiveradar; noticed this, "Hardest sportive in the SE", what a load of wank, 1900m climb on a 200?
SRS Events - Burgess Hill Cyclosportives (http://www.srs-events.cc/event2/event-details.htm)
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Whilst applauding people enjoying a sporting activity, as a cycling community I feel we have to recognise there is a risk that the increasing volume of events and field sizes will result in organised cycling events being, at best, regulated.
As an audax rider (and organiser), it's perfectly legitimate to worry about this prospect, given any regulations are unlikely to distinguish between a sportive and an audax event.
This is the issue for me. I am convinced, and friends of mine , including serving police officers, that it will only take one serious incident, and ALL organised cycling events will be banned.
Most of the public don't see any distinction between Auaxes, Sportives, Road Races and even Time Trials. They also don't see why they are legal, when other competition on the roads isn't (their opinion, not mine!)
Let's hope it never happens, but just imagine a , for example, sportive, when a descending group meets a minibus full of Brownies. Bus goes off road - injuries and fatalities.
The public call for the stopping of all cycling in groups would lead to legislation.
If we don't sensibly control our own activities, then the law will. 4,000 riders of very diverse ability isn't controlling our own activities I'm afraid.
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What exactly do you mean by a serious incident though? There certainly have been fatalities in groups of cyclists, out for club runs and similar, which I'd say counts as pretty serious, and there have been fatalities on large organised rides, I know of one on the Dun Run (which admittedly is fairly lightly organised), and I'd imagine there have been others.
It would be almost impossible to legislate against group rides, after all what exactly would that cover? Even on commutes, I can find myself surrounded by a dozen other cyclists, by no sane definition would that be a group ride, but it could easily fall afoul of a legal definition designed to stop people going for a ride with a group of people (like a FNRttC).
Racing is slightly different, and it would be difficult to use any legislation against group riding to stop a time trial. Time trials of course actually have their origin in the potential risk of the authorities trying to stop racing on public roads, hence the historical wearing of all black, and the code names given to race routes.
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Fatality of a motor vehicle passenger, because they are humans whereas cyclists are perverted aliens from the planet Weirdo.
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I would think the number of occasions that a car occupant has been killed in a collision with a cyclist are very small (approaching zero).
Given that it's possible, in a modern car, to survive a fairly high speed impact with another motor vehicle, or stationary object, the chances of something as flimsy and lightweight as most cycles, doing much damage to a car or it's occupants, is very unlikely.
In a worst case scenario, if the car hit the cyclist fast enough and they went over the bonnet and then through the windscreen, that could involve a fatality of a car occupant, although it would almost certainly have a similar effect on the cyclist.
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What exactly do you mean by a serious incident though? There certainly have been fatalities in groups of cyclists, ...
If very occasionally we kill ourselves (or people die in the course of, like on L2B last year) that is a matter amongst us to a large extent.
If by being too fast, too large a group or not obeying the rules of the road due to "racing" some not involved is hurt then it becomes an external issue, as Giropaul's example suggests. As you say the chances of hurting a car occupant is small, but someone crossing a road being hit or a car being forced off the road is more plausible when large groups of cyclists misbehave.
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4000 riders sounds big but how many were actually on the road at a time?
I was passed by a (1200 rider apparently) sportive a few weeks ago; there were no more than a dozen riders in a bunch at a time. So it's up to us to control it.
Road races that I've seen are a lot more disruptive; with as a really bad example marshalls who think it's perfectly OK to park their motorcycle across the road blocking the entire carriageway both ways whilst awaiting a pass by the bunch :-\
(several times on the same lap)
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I know that I have contributed to a thread I should not have read because of my argument but here goes -
Sportive riders think they are in a race so behave like it.
Audax riders have a different point of reference and find the racing ethic annoying and pointless
We can muse all we like but it isn't going to change.
BB
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On the subject of the gels; maybe the organisers could provide bins by the marshalls and/or insist that riders return as many packets as they went out with, or no finishing position is awarded. I can see why people don't want to carry a sticky empty gel pouch (the damn things should be banned outside pro events IMO since they're such a temptation to litter), but there are ways round this, such as carrying a small freezer bag to put the remains in.
Disclaimer: I was given a gel once by a fellow rider on the Dun Run and it tasted vile.
Having ridden the dragon and peeved with hour wait to start and timing issues.
One of the things the organisers got sorted was the clean up operation at the feed stations, living in Porthcawl I rode past Cosy Corner feed station on way home about 3pm and the place was spotless, portable toilets had also gone into hyperspace. WELL DONE
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What exactly do you mean by a serious incident though? There certainly have been fatalities in groups of cyclists, ...
If very occasionally we kill ourselves (or people die in the course of, like on L2B last year) that is a matter amongst us to a large extent.
If by being too fast, too large a group or not obeying the rules of the road due to "racing" some not involved is hurt then it becomes an external issue, as Giropaul's example suggests. As you say the chances of hurting a car occupant is small, but someone crossing a road being hit or a car being forced off the road is more plausible when large groups of cyclists misbehave.
And that is exactly what I mean. I'm not trying to present a reasoned argument about risks, I'm trying to present the argument that the popular press will make if and when someone not involved in the cycling is hurt (it's not about motorists etc, it's about 3rd party implications); that will be picked up by an MP out to raise a profile, and that will result in legislation. We may feel that we have some moral high ground, but that won't matter.
The police are already writing to cycling clubs in the Surrey Hills area. The wording is very measured and helpful, but the message is clear, sort out the group riding or we'll have to sort it out for you.
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I guess there's loads of people who are saying stuff about the special ethos of audax but could it just be a function of size.
If you're on a 4,000 rider event it could feel a bit anonymous compared to a friendly event of 100 or so riders and few volunteers from the local WI knocking out cake.
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I guess there's loads of people who are saying stuff about the special ethos of audax but could it just be a function of size.
If you're on a 4,000 rider event it could feel a bit anonymous compared to a friendly event of 100 or so riders and few volunteers from the local WI knocking out cake.
You certainly lose some 'ethos' as events get bigger, but bigger and commercial are different things.
Riding LEL (which was 10 times bigger than most Audaxes, but 1/10th of the Dragon/Etape) felt like a tour between village halls staffed with WI volunteers. PBP is obviously huge and impersonal, but you could very much feel the love at controls, and from spectators on the streets.
Taking cake from a smiling volunteer vs
grabbing a gel from a box while a rent-a-marshall in Hiviz checks his watch for hometime.
[+ n Billion shades inbetween ]
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4000 riders sounds big but how many were actually on the road at a time?
I was passed by a (1200 rider apparently) sportive a few weeks ago; there were no more than a dozen riders in a bunch at a time.
That's the audax experience, where a group of half a dozen is exceptional and most are effectively riding solo but it seems that's not what Sportives are about. A Dragon Rider was telling me of moving between pelotons of up to 100 riders, riding flat out, 'You don't get that on Audax'.
Sounds lethal to me. As noted upthread, one major incident involving say a bunch descending through the surrey hills and causing an RTA with multi fatalities amongst bike riders and car occupants, and the outcry will force a response. Sadly it's only a matter of time. Let's hope the AUK recipe of non-competiveness / private excusion will offer some protection.
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A Dragon Rider was telling me of moving between pelotons of up to 100 riders, riding flat out, 'You don't get that on Audax'.
Sounds lethal to me.
The Vatternrundan was exactly that; but completely safe. I commend the ride to every AUK rider to see just how different and enjoyable (inna completely different stylee) a 300km event can be
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Reading some of the thread that was linked to in the OP has put me off entering any more sportives, certainly put me off th eDragon Ride. They all sound very serious for what is just another bike ride.
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Last audax I rode (some time ago), three chaps at the front were really annoying me. They wanted to treat it like a race but had no idea of how to read the simple route sheet, so they kept waiting for me and then asking me to explain the next few lines of the sheet before zooming off again. Then they'd get lost and either stop to wait for me, or catch me up from whatever wrong turn they had taken this time, and eventually they started trying to encourage me to ride faster so that I could show them the way. I told them several times that I was happy with my moderate pace and that they should just read the instructions and relate them to the sign posts but they wouldn't event make the effort, preferring instead just to continually complain about how crap audaxes were, what with no route markers, etc, and keep telling me that if I just made a little effort I could go so much faster.
Eventually I just stopped and let them ride off, and also let someone overtake me so they had someone else to annoy. At the finish I asked about them - last seen at the furthest point from home, heading off in totally the wrong direction.
So I like sportifs. Probably never ride one myself, but at least these three chaps will have a ride more suitable for their needs so they won't have to annoy audaxers again. And I can continue bimbling along, with fellow riders who are more interested in a nice chat and taking in the scenery. Each to their own and share the roads in peace.