Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => On The Road => Topic started by: Wendy on 26 October, 2011, 01:31:57 pm
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Intolerance of skaters, obv. a subject close to my heart:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/bike-blog/2011/oct/25/cyclists-rollerbladers
I've experienced this also from a few cyclists when skating in Hyde Park. They are just as bad as the drivers who beep and don't tolerate cyclists on the road. Skaters are perfectly justified in using a cycle lane.
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That article says
"I'm not saying that I've ever witnessed any wheel-on-wheel hostility, far from it. But when I first got on my rollerblades I was expecting to find a multi-wheeled fraternity of spontaneous high-fives and lycra. And overall we do get on.
We agree on the big issues: we said no to cars, got sick of public transport or decided that walking was too slow. And we have common enemies on every front - bad lighting, cracked pavements and that person who stops in the middle of a cycle lane to send a text message."
and then goes on to pose a whole pile of theoretical problems. Shoddy journalism... and a complete non-story.
And while we're at it:
Maybe cyclists think it's unfair that I get an access all areas pass to pavements, alley ways, stairs and cycle paths?
No you don't. A cycle track/path* is just that - a track/path for cyclists, where cyclists have priority and where pedestrian may be excluded**. Just like footpaths are for pedestrians.
*The terms tend to be used interchangably. From the tone of the article, I doubt whether the author knows the legal differences.
** See the Cycle Tracks Act 1984, Section 329 of the Highways Act 1980 and the Road Traffic act 1972.
[Edited for clarity]
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Cyclists have priority over pedestrians?
Secondly, a skater on a cycle path is just another HPV. I don't think you can argue cyclists have priority over them.
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I've come across the odd skateboarder (never blade or rollerskater) on a segregated cycle path and I don't mind sharing it with them as it's got to be safer than skating on the road.
They've always been expectant of cyclists so can't see a problem with sharing it.
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Cyclists have priority over pedestrians?
Secondly, a skater on a cycle path is just another HPV. I don't think you can argue cyclists have priority over them.
On some cycle tracks (in fact on most) pedestrians are excluded. Most people don't realise that.
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I'm sceptical of this - could you provide an exact quote and link to the section that bans pedestrians from cycle tracks?
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I'm sceptical of this - could you provide an exact quote and link to the section that bans pedestrians from cycle tracks?
See Section 329 of the Highways Act 1980 (referred to above). It allows the right of access on foot to be removed from cycle tracks - in fact, IIRC, when a cycle track order is made, it requires a positive action to enable pedestrians to use the track (the default is that they can't).
The exact wording is (its from a definitions section):
“cycle track” means a way constituting or comprised in a highway, being a way over which the public have the following, but no other, rights of way, that is to say, a right of way on pedal cycles [F679(other than pedal cycles which are motor vehicles within the meaning of [F680the Road Traffic Act 1988]] with or without a right of way on foot;
(bold added to highlight relevant words).
You need to read it in the context of the rest of the legislation.
A cycle track is only automatically open to pedestrians if it was put in place on an existing footpath (this was brought in under the Cycle Tracks Act 1984).
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So, you actually have no idea about the status of any particular cycle track/path/lane? I'm almost certain that this is not the case in the Royal Parks, with cyclists required to give way at all times under the Parks code of use.
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She doesn't "exactly feel welcome in the cycle lane" because cyclists ring their bells. ::-) She's just paranoid.
I've cycled in Hide Park when cyclists outnumbered bladers and when bladers outnumbered cyclists, with no trouble, seeing no trouble, and feeling no trouble, except sometimes I'm worried that someone might skate sideways into me when they might not have noticed me, so I flip my dingaling if I have one, or click my Campag freehub if I don't.
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I read that article with a view to starting a thread on it but concluded that it was just a space-filler and wasn't worth the effort.
@Reg: for all practical purposes I'd say that pedestrians and skaters are entitled to use cycle paths. You'd never get anything enforced in cases where they are not.
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@Reg: for all practical purposes I'd say that pedestrians and skaters are entitled to use cycle paths. You'd never get anything enforced in cases where they are not.
Oh indeed, I agree that enforcement is rare - but that's very different to saying that you have entitlements which you may not have.
If the author of the article is going to berate cyclists for imagined slights, then she should at least know what she's talking about. :demon:
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She doesn't "exactly feel welcome in the cycle lane" because cyclists ring their bells. ::-) She's just paranoid.
I've cycled in Hide Park when cyclists outnumbered bladers and when bladers outnumbered cyclists, with no trouble, seeing no trouble, and feeling no trouble, except sometimes I'm worried that someone might skate sideways into me when they might not have noticed me, so I flip my dingaling if I have one, or click my Campag freehub if I don't.
I'm not surprised that an excellent rider like you never has any trouble, and that's the case for most people I expect. OTOH I suppose it's all in the way the bells are rung - sometimes the ringing of bells is extremely pushy and aggressive. It's pretty obvious she means the latter, and describes such a manner of riding too.
For example, should we really be defending c0cks like this rider? He is the sort of person I'm sure the article refers to, and the sort of person I've had swear at me. There are loads of great cyclists, but also a minority of silly and aggressive ones who I won't be defending.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6-2hUF2kms
And for Regulator:
http://www.royalparks.org.uk/about/cyclingtips.cfm
Pedestrians have priority over all other users of pathways, even in areas designated and marked for other purposes. You are asked to use these pathways considerately, especially when passing.
I'm not quite sure that says anything about what relative priorities cyclists and skaters have, but I would expect them to be treated similarly since they are both HPVs and tend to move at somewhat similar speeds, more than pedestrians and less than motor vehicles. I'm also not sure what the law is backing up the code above, but the spirit and intention seem extremely clear to me. As a skater or a cyclist I'd expect to give way to pedestrians regardless of whether they were in the cycle path or not.
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She doesn't "exactly feel welcome in the cycle lane" because cyclists ring their bells. ::-) She's just paranoid.
I've cycled in Hide Park when cyclists outnumbered bladers and when bladers outnumbered cyclists, with no trouble, seeing no trouble, and feeling no trouble, except sometimes I'm worried that someone might skate sideways into me when they might not have noticed me, so I flip my dingaling if I have one, or click my Campag freehub if I don't.
Yeah, that's the part of the article that rang false (as it were) to me. Ringing a bell is far less aggressive than sounding a horn, and tends not to be used as a rebuke because it's not a very effective one.
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I doubt very much the slights are imagined. There are quite a few skaters who I know personally who've had a bad experience from aggressive and pushy cyclists. It's obvious similar complaints have come from pedestrians going by how much re-work the Parks are doing to defuse the situation.
It's very obvious to me that there are a minority of utter arseholes on bikes - I spend a lot of time in the park and I get to see a lot of cyclists.
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Yeah, that's the part of the article that rang false (as it were) to me. Ringing a bell is far less aggressive than sounding a horn, and tends not to be used as a rebuke because it's not a very effective one.
See the video example above - that was extremely aggressive ringing, and riding. Sadly it's not that uncommon, although it is a minority of riders who ride like this.
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It's true that bicycle bells can sound alarmingly loud when you're close to one. I suppose this can be mistaken for aggression even when none is intended.
With most bells, you can minimise the volume by giving the lever only a gentle push/pull, or mute it by touching the dome.
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For example, should we really be defending c0cks like this rider?
No. I mean I've never noticed deliberate aggression from cyclists towards skaters. Of course there are too many cocks about that pose a danger to everyone and themselves. Usually it seems to me to be caused by ignorance and lack of foresight, rather than deliberate aggression
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For example, should we really be defending c0cks like this rider?
No. I mean I've never noticed deliberate aggression from cyclists towards skaters. Of course there are too many cocks about that pose a danger to everyone and themselves. Usually it seems to me to be caused by ignorance and lack of foresight, rather than deliberate aggression
Indeed. Just as there are cock drivers, there are cock cyclists, cock skaters and cock pedestrians.
To do as the author of the article did and paint all cyclists as being cocks is the sort of shoddy journalism that seems to be beginning to pervade the pages of the Grauniad on a startlingly frequent basis.
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I saw a bloke really holler at a kid on the path through Kensington Gardens the other day - he'd just come in from the road at the gate near the memorial playpark and was riding along Broad Walk (I think that's what it's called) and a kid walking along drifted sideways so he swerved round and proper shouted. I thought it was a bit out of order (and I'm quite bolshy with my kids about NOT walking on cycle paths/NOT riding on pavements/watching out for other road and path users wherever you happen to be) since it appeared to be a shared use path and was a few metres away from an outdoor cafe and a popular kids play area - surely he must expect to see unpredictable small people there?
However I also saw hundreds of other cyclists (including plenty of boris-bikers and several hipsters on fixies so bling that even I noticed them enough to think I really wasn't keen) and pedestrians and the odd skateboarder although, thinking about it, no skaters. All mingling in a perfectly non-stressful way. There certainly didn't appear to be a significant problem to this country bumpkin.
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Oh, no, I've spent enough time in the park, seeing thousands of cyclists coming through to easily tell the difference between the majority of great cyclists and the few bad ones. Excellent cyclists like yourself and Regulator, and I imagine just about everyone on this board, have a distinctive way of ringing that isn't aggressive at all. It's a ting or three from further back, and usually accompanied with a little slowing down and care.
You guys are just so nice I suspect you find it hard to imagine how badly some cyclists can behave. The few bad ones are much like the one in the video I linked - multiple loud dinging right up to them, no slowing down, and riding at the pedestrians/skaters/other to make them jump out of the way, often shouting at them too. Perhaps you come across fewer bad ones too, as you're riding along with the flow, whilst I'm often teaching in one spot so have a flood of cyclists come past, from which the few bad ones are very obvious.
Put it this way, her article rings a bell with my own experience, so I find it much easier to accept the truth of it. I don't think we should be defending the bad cyclists and pretending that they don't exist, even when I don't like what it says about us as cyclists. I think we should accept that they exist, just as there are bad drivers humans too.
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It's true that bicycle bells can sound alarmingly loud when you're close to one. I suppose this can be mistaken for aggression even when none is intended.
You have to be right next to someone, and in a very quiet area. And the someone needs to turn their iPod off.
Some people are deaf, or chatting on the phone, or have iPods set to 11 - the only option sometimes is to keep ringin until they notice you.
So unless you deliberately creep upto someone silently, and THEN ring your bell I can't see any need for offence to ever be taken.
But of course it will be!
Anyhoo, I'm sure we can all agree there are knobs using every transport type. Is that all this thread is about? :(
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The article writer is not even complaining of bad cyclists exactly. She just has a (I think somewhat paranoid) perception that cyclists are aggressive. She revealed that her feeling comes from a lack of hive-fives and one incident where several cyclists rang bells. That's it. No nearly getting hit, nothing like that.
"I'm not saying that I've ever witnessed any wheel-on-wheel hostility, far from it. But when I first got on my rollerblades I was expecting to find a multi-wheeled fraternity of spontaneous high-fives and lycra. And overall we do get on."
"Or perhaps I just need to get over one particular incident. It was my first outing on the cycle path along the Serpentine. It was early in the morning and cyclists, lots of cyclists, were coming at me, in front of me and behind me. I kept getting bells chiming in my direction - and they weren't playing Happy Birthday."
Of course there are bad cyclist, but this article isn't about bad cyclists. It's about not feeling loved enough. It's quite a tall order to expect love from strangers all the time.
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Now you mention, it is shocking just how few cyclists give you a high five these days. The off-roaders started the rot, but the MAMILs are even worse. >:(
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I have seen cyclists "kicked off" their bikes accidentally by skaters in the past. To be fair, this was in Chicago, not here, but it could just as easily happen here which is why I'm dead wary about passing skaters without letting them know I'm behind them and coming through.
How does a skater kick a cyclist off their bike?
Skaters don't "walk" along the path with their feet moving backwards and forwards like a runner, their feet come back and out to the sides. If they are moving quite fast, they can counterbalance this as well by leaning out to one side or throwing their arms out. A skater might therefore move in a long S shape with quite deep side kicks. If they use up all of the path doing this, then they can be impossible to pass safely.
If they're wearing headphones as well, then it can be quite irritating trying to find a way past.
Disclosure - I used to skate almost every lunch hour up in Hyde Park
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Intolerance of skaters, obv. a subject close to my heart:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/bike-blog/2011/oct/25/cyclists-rollerbladers
I've experienced this also from a few cyclists when skating in Hyde Park. They are just as bad as the drivers who beep and don't tolerate cyclists on the road. Skaters are perfectly justified in using a cycle lane.
If they're not riding a bicycle/tricycle/'bent, then they should not be in the cycle lane. I am one of those who finds skaters/bladers/skateboarders etc' a bloody dangerous nuisance in cycle lanes, and when passing I WILL ask them 'Where's your bicycle?'
This argument differs quite a bit from motons' 'cyclists shouldn't be in the road' because roads are not called 'car lanes' and are not built specifically for cars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1JIRn0UPyE
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In some parts of the US you'll come across segregated cycle and skater lanes next to each other. From my limited experience of using them, in LA, each respects the other and pedestrians don't wander into either. It shouldn't be necessary though, in the same way it shouldn't be necessary to have separate cycle lanes at all.
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Skaters don't "walk" along the path with their feet moving backwards and forwards like a runner, their feet come back and out to the sides. If they are moving quite fast, they can counterbalance this as well by leaning out to one side or throwing their arms out. A skater might therefore move in a long S shape with quite deep side kicks. If they use up all of the path doing this, then they can be impossible to pass safely.
+1
Waiting until you can pass someone is one thing. Being stuck behind them because of this behaviour for 100 metres or more is another.
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If they're not riding a bicycle/tricycle/'bent, then they should not be in the cycle lane. I am one of those who finds skaters/bladers/skateboarders etc' a bloody dangerous nuisance in cycle lanes, and when passing I WILL ask them 'Where's your bicycle?'
This argument differs quite a bit from motons' 'cyclists shouldn't be in the road' because roads are not called 'car lanes' and are not built specifically for cars.
+1
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It's true that bicycle bells can sound alarmingly loud when you're close to one. I suppose this can be mistaken for aggression even when none is intended.
With most bells, you can minimise the volume by giving the lever only a gentle push/pull, or mute it by touching the dome.
This is why I don't have bells on most bikes. "Excuse me" is sufficient when on a path, and cannot be seen as aggressive. Bells are pointless against cars in the road.
I hate bells, and really get wound up when cyclists come up behind me ringing them. I don't lean on the car hooter everytime I catch up a slower road user, so no need to start doing that when cycling.
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I hate bells, and really get wound up when cyclists come up behind me ringing them. I don't lean on the car hooter everytime I catch up a slower road user, so no need to start doing that when cycling.
Why do you hate them? (I could understand if they made a noise like a car horn!)
There are very few more pleasant noises on our highways and byways (made by humans, anyways).
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I ring my bell to let people know I'm approaching, not to say 'Get out of the way'.
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Why do you want them to know you are approaching?
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Why do you want them to know you are approaching?
Because if I pass them and they step or cycle into me the first thing said will be 'Why didn't you ring your bell?'
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If they're not riding a bicycle/tricycle/'bent, then they should not be in the cycle lane. I am one of those who finds skaters/bladers/skateboarders etc' a bloody dangerous nuisance in cycle lanes, and when passing I WILL ask them 'Where's your bicycle?'
This argument differs quite a bit from motons' 'cyclists shouldn't be in the road' because roads are not called 'car lanes' and are not built specifically for cars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1JIRn0UPyE
That's not really any different to a car driver telling you to get on the cycle path, and just as wrong. That would be justification for a submission to Silly Cyclists, IMO.
OTOH that skater you filmed there was not being particularly responsible. Bit of a silly skater really. AlexB will be amused to note that I don't know him. :D
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That's not really any different to a car driver telling you to get on the cycle path, and just as wrong.
It's VERY different. Roads are not called car paths, or car lanes or car tracks, because they are not specifically for cars. CYCLE lanes CYCLE tracks and CYCLE paths on the other hand ARE specifically for cyclists.
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I hate bells, and really get wound up when cyclists come up behind me ringing them. I don't lean on the car hooter everytime I catch up a slower road user, so no need to start doing that when cycling.
Why do you hate them? (I could understand if they made a noise like a car horn!)
There are very few more pleasant noises on our highways and byways (made by humans, anyways).
Walking along a path, enjoying the birdsong and peace and quiet, then jump out of my boots with
DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING
coming up from behind.
I ring my bell to let people know I'm approaching, not to say 'Get out of the way'.
A common soundtrack to your seafront cycle path videos is DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING. Sorry to say this, but I end up muting the laptop usually.
In the same way that fire alarms are pitched to hurt the ears and discourage anybody staying in the building, I find that DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING makes my head RING RING RING RING and it is something that really winds me up.
I have a bell on one bike, it gives a lower pitched "ding dong" when rung. I rarely use even that (saying "hello", or "excuse me" is much more polite) but "ding dong" from a distance away is much more pleasant than how most cyclists use a bell - DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING. (If you must DING, then that's enough, DING DING is starting to push it, and DING DING DING is just way too far)
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That's not really any different to a car driver telling you to get on the cycle path, and just as wrong. That would be justification for a submission to Silly Cyclists, IMO.
Agreed. Sorry, but true.
I was amused to see
a) no bell was rung*
b) fast and close pass.
*
Why do you want them to know you are approaching?
Because if I pass them and they step or cycle into me the first thing said will be 'Why didn't you ring your bell?'
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It's VERY different. Roads are not called car paths, or car lanes or car tracks, because they are not specifically for cars. CYCLE lanes CYCLE tracks and CYCLE paths on the other hand ARE specifically for cyclists.
No it's not, skaters are also HPVs and are perfectly entitled to use the cycle lane. I feel a lot less entitlement and much more tolerance will make your road and cycle lane sharing a much more pleasant and fair experience for everyone. We saw that same sense of unfair entitlement when it came to the rowing club example.
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When in pedestrian mode, I don't mind what is efectively a polite request to allow someone to pass who is travelling faster than me, or as a warning that someone is coming along: effectively a request to not suddenly dart sideways.
I went for a long long time without a ding a ling (stoppit), and still don't have a bell on one of my bikes (for space/weight saving), but I realised again how useful they can be after one came with my Brompton. It was integrated with the gear shifter, and very small and light, so wasn't worth removing (which I might have done instantly otherwise).
I find a bell most useful on roads - to make some more pedestrians notice me instead of step out in front of me, particularly at the corners of left turns (for me). It doesn't make it safer. It just means I go faster when I reckon there's a high chance that I've been seen. I don't rely on them to hear me, I only change my actions if hearing me as made them turn to look.
So it's a convenience device, not safety device. I'm not ashamed to increase my convenience, within reason. SPARING use of a bell is reasonable.
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I ring my bell to let people know I'm approaching, not to say 'Get out of the way'.
A common soundtrack to your seafront cycle path videos is DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING. Sorry to say this, but I end up muting the laptop usually.
In the same way that fire alarms are pitched to hurt the ears and discourage anybody staying in the building, I find that DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING makes my head RING RING RING RING and it is something that really winds me up.
I have a bell on one bike, it gives a lower pitched "ding dong" when rung. I rarely use even that (saying "hello", or "excuse me" is much more polite) but "ding dong" from a distance away is much more pleasant than how most cyclists use a bell - DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING. (If you must DING, then that's enough, DING DING is starting to push it, and DING DING DING is just way too far)
And if those you are trying to warn of your approach take no notice? Is it better to approach in silence and risk a collision - at whatever speed someone will be hurt - or is it better to do the best you can to let them know you are approaching? In the video posted if I had been stationary that idiot would have skated straight into me, I did not see his headphones until he passed, so I had to do all I could to get his attention.
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It's VERY different. Roads are not called car paths, or car lanes or car tracks, because they are not specifically for cars. CYCLE lanes CYCLE tracks and CYCLE paths on the other hand ARE specifically for cyclists.
No it's not, skaters are also HPVs and are perfectly entitled to use the cycle lane. I feel a lot less entitlement and much more tolerance will make your road and cycle lane sharing a much more pleasant and fair experience for everyone. We saw that same sense of unfair entitlement when it came to the rowing club example.
It is not called an HPV Lane, it is called a CYCLE Lane. If you're not on a cycle don't be in it.
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This is why I don't have bells on most bikes. "Excuse me" is sufficient when on a path, and cannot be seen as aggressive. Bells are pointless against cars in the road.
I hate bells, and really get wound up when cyclists come up behind me ringing them. I don't lean on the car hooter everytime I catch up a slower road user, so no need to start doing that when cycling.
Well said Nutty. I feel much the same way as you do, and so often bells are used in the same way and with the same aggression as car horns. I think it's you who got me into talking politely to path users, and it's the obvious best and nicest approach, combined with the slow down and take care.
I see quite a few pedestrians who react negatively to a bell being rung, btw. Maybe they've been trained that way by bad cyclists?
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It is not called an HPV Lane, it is called a CYCLE Lane. If you're not on a cycle don't be in it.
Why are you so intolerant and unsharing? You are the same as the car drivers who tell you to get off the road. You don't have any right to tell skaters to get out of the cycle lane, nor pedestrians either. Waay too much sense of entitlement, IMO.
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It is not called an HPV Lane, it is called a CYCLE Lane. If you're not on a cycle don't be in it.
Why are you so intolerant and unsharing? You are the same as the car drivers who tell you to get off the road. You don't have any right to tell skaters to get out of the cycle lane, nor pedestrians either. Waay too much sense of entitlement, IMO.
Why are you so anti-cyclist? Wouldn't you be better over on the Top Gear forum pontificating on why cyclists should take second place to everyone else not only on roads but in cycle lanes too?
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I see quite a few pedestrians who react negatively to a bell being rung, btw. Maybe they've been trained that way by bad cyclists?
Or maybe they have 'Waay too much sense of entitlement' to be wherever they choose to be.
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....
And if those you are trying to warn of your approach take no notice? Is it better to approach in silence and risk a collision - at whatever speed someone will be hurt - or is it better to do the best you can to let them know you are approaching? In the video posted if I had been stationary that idiot would have skated straight into me, I did not see his headphones until he passed, so I had to do all I could to get his attention.
I tend to slow down and do whatever I can to avoid a collision. I believe that is my duty.
Even if I had a bell* then I wouldn't rely on the fact I'd rung it as a guarantee the pedestrian/cyclist had heard it. It's the same as when driving, if I need to alert somebody to my presence (e.g. motorist reversing out of driveway) then I don't hoot and keep the right foot down, I hoot and prepare to stop/take evasive action.
*(Biggsy had just reminded me I have one on each of the Bromptons - that's how rarely I use them!)
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I see quite a few pedestrians who react negatively to a bell being rung, btw. Maybe they've been trained that way by bad cyclists?
Or maybe they have 'Waay too much sense of entitlement' to be wherever they choose to be.
I've had this before, coming over the Humber Bridge on the way to Southend and slowing in order to carefully avoid the pedestrians ahead. I was just about to say "excuse me" when the cyclist behind started up that ruddy DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING
The pedestrians jumped out of their skin, as I would have done too in their place, and believing me to have been the source of the racket gave me a real earful re not being considerate and sharing the space. Since it was a shared use path, I fully agreed with them. I just wish the cyclist responsible for the racket had taken the earbashing instead.
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Why are you so anti-cyclist? Wouldn't you be better over on the Top Gear forum pontificating on why cyclists should take second place to everyone else not only on roads but in cycle lanes too?
And yet that is so not like me. You'll remember that video where you got a lot of comments about riding in the door zone, and deleted them all. IIRC we all suggested that you should have taken the lane there, and that you had priority over the driver, and that the driver was pretty poor for left hooking you. That doesn't match with your comment above.
Skaters have just as much responsibility to look out for others - as might have been missed, I agree that the skater you filmed was using the path badly there. Skating backwards, using more than half of it, and not looking properly. OTOH, Nutty's point about your fast and close pass on him is just as valid.
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I see quite a few pedestrians who react negatively to a bell being rung, btw. Maybe they've been trained that way by bad cyclists?
Or maybe they have 'Waay too much sense of entitlement' to be wherever they choose to be.
Isn't that the delights and enlightened approach of the UK? Pedestrians can go just about everywhere with few exceptions, and rightfully so.
What amazes me is how a number of people on this topic just refuse to recognise quite how bad a minority of cyclists can be.
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Why are you so anti-cyclist? Wouldn't you be better over on the Top Gear forum pontificating on why cyclists should take second place to everyone else not only on roads but in cycle lanes too?
And yet that is so not like me. You'll remember that video where you got a lot of comments about riding in the door zone, and deleted them all. IIRC we all suggested that you should have taken the lane there, and that you had priority over the driver, and that the driver was pretty poor for left hooking you. That doesn't match with your comment above.
Skaters have just as much responsibility to look out for others - as might have been missed, I agree that the skater you filmed was using the path badly there. Skating backwards, using more than half of it, and not looking properly. OTOH, Nutty's point about your fast and close pass on him is just as valid.
I deleted the comments because I was not riding in the door zone, but people were too stupid to comprehend a wide angle lens, and the discussion was detracting from the real issue of being left-hooked.
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What amazes me is how a number of people on this topic just refuse to recognise quite how bad a minority of cyclists can be.
Speaking for myself I'm sick of reading your anti-cyclist nonsense. Being polite, staying quiet has got UK cyclists how far? Pretty much nowhere, we are harassed and bullied on the roads, and we have people who claim to be pro-cycling whining that we should also get out the way of non-cyclists on cycle lanes.
I've been riding for forty years, and I for one will no longer be 'polite and silent', because it gets us nowhere.
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It's a bit OT from this topic, and my point that I'm not putting cyclists in second place to anyone. Instead it's about tolerance and sharing, and our responsibilities to others.
No, you were most definitely riding in the door zone. The comments you deleted were from a number of experienced camera users correctly judging your position in the road, some of whom had specific experience with your own camera. Taking the lane and staying out of the door zone would have been correctly asserting your priority, and would have prevented that bad driver from left hooking you too.
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It's a bit OT from this topic, and my point that I'm not putting cyclists in second place to anyone. Instead it's about tolerance and sharing, and our responsibilities to others.
No, you were most definitely riding in the door zone. The comments you deleted were from a number of experienced camera users correctly judging your position in the road, some of whom had specific experience with your own camera. Taking the lane and staying out of the door zone would have been correctly asserting your priority, and would have prevented that bad driver from left hooking you too.
I was there, you were not. I was not in the door zone.
As for your point, I don't see it as 'tolerance and sharing', I see it as taking another step back and letting everyone else walk over us. You might be prepared to be a doormat, I'm not.
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Speaking for myself I'm sick of reading your anti-cyclist nonsense. Being polite, staying quiet has got UK cyclists how far? Pretty much nowhere, we are harassed and bullied on the roads, and we have people who claim to be pro-cycling whining that we should also get out the way of non-cyclists on cycle lanes.
I've been riding for forty years, and I for one will no longer be 'polite and silent', because it gets us nowhere.
Srsly? Just remind me, how many Roadsafe reports/company contacts and youtube videos do we each have, respectively, and what does that say about how we both stand up for cyclists' rights?
I'm sorry you don't like what I'm saying, and it's really not a dig at you. OTOH I think I might feel a little bit more strongly about our responsibilities that go with those rights.
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Dear Nutty,
I don't often say this, but:
You need to get a sense of proportion.
Somehow you've leapt from:
"ding dong" from a distance away is much more pleasant than how most cyclists use a bell - DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING.
To:
I hate bells,
And BTW, have you ever used a traditional bell?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413XHKFBKFL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Their standard mode is NOT a single ding; everyone knows the traditional sound these things make, so if you do something different, other RofW users may not register your approach. So leave off the lectures about how many dings constitute rudeness.
Try and rein in the nuttiness, please.
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What amazes me is how a number of people on this topic just refuse to recognise quite how bad a minority of cyclists can be.
It might have helped if you had picked a stronger article to illustrate your point. The Guardian one is pathetic.
Of course there are bad cyclists, but not enough bad enough ones to make a big fuss about, IMO. I'm basing that on what I see. I cycle at various speeds, so I get to observe all sorts of cyclists doing all the things that cyclists do. By far the biggest problem is cyclists not taking enough care of themselves. They're injuring and killing themselves far more than hurting others. I appreciate that many more should be more friendly polite, but that's not an issue that excites me very much.
People like to moan about cyclists. It's a national pastime. It's a classic old chestnut for local radio phone-ins, for example. Much of it is just not based on reality, IMO.
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What amazes me is how a number of people on this topic just refuse to recognise quite how bad a minority of cyclists can be.
Speaking for myself I'm sick of reading your anti-cyclist nonsense. Being polite, staying quiet has got UK cyclists how far? Pretty much nowhere, we are harassed and bullied on the roads, and we have people who claim to be pro-cycling whining that we should also get out the way of non-cyclists on cycle lanes.
I've been riding for forty years, and I for one will no longer be 'polite and silent', because it gets us nowhere.
I don't know what you mean by "anti cycling nonsense." I can't see how letting someone rollerblade in a cycle lane is anti cycling. Isn't it similar to a slow cyclist in the cycle lane? It's not cyclists keeping out of their way, it's just accepting someone else using the cycle lane. I personally have no problem with that, unless they are being a tit, but I generally don't like people being a tit, regardless of whether they are on rollerskates, foot, bicycles or whatever.
You do get tits on bikes who behave like selfish arseholes.
Being polite, curteous and sharing the road/cyclepath just makes life more pleasant and less stressfull. I'll still be rude and aggressive to anyone who is rude and aggressive to me though, or better still find a better way of putting them down a peg or two. I agree that we should stand up to bullies, but I don't think we should become bullies ourselves.
I often come across small kids on foot scooters on my way to work on the cycleways. They're just kids having fun. Where exactly would my being impolite and noisy at these happy kids get me? I can't see any benefit to myself, nor the image of cycling. Why would a kid want to grow up to be an angry cyclist who shouts at little children?
I reckon the fact that the yummy mummies I see every day and their kids feeling safe and relaxed that I wont intimidate, threaten, scare, bully and certainly not injure them or their kids when I cycle past them is much better for cycling than being an intolerent beast full of self importance of people who dare to use anything other than a cycle or their feet on a shared use cycle path. Seeing the kids happily playing is one of the best bits of my very short commute. If I was in that much of a hurry, I'd use the road.
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What amazes me is how a number of people on this topic just refuse to recognise quite how bad a minority of cyclists can be.
It might have helped if you had picked a stronger article to illustrate your point. The Guardian one is pathetic.
By far the biggest problem is cyclists not taking enough care of themselves.
I'd like to see a source for this. I've never seen any such claim backed up by evidence.
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What amazes me is how a number of people on this topic just refuse to recognise quite how bad a minority of cyclists can be.
It might have helped if you had picked a stronger article to illustrate your point. The Guardian one is pathetic.
Well, that's true enough. Perhaps it's because it resonates more with me as I have encountered far too many really rude and impatient cyclists, and a few actually dangerous ones. Been ridden into a couple of times in the Park too, though no fault of my own. Both times the cyclist went down heavily and had a bent bike, me no more than bruises. A mate got hit by a cyclist and broke his thumb. The cyclist hit his head and died almost a week later, I don't believe that was the skater's fault, not according to the rider, the skater, or the police after the rider talked to them (he was conscious for a little while).
Spinners, I do recall seeing a statistic that the most common cyclist crash was a single vehicle one, i.e. all by the cyclist on their own with no-one else involved. I suspect it's true, though I don't have a link for you. I'm sure that's even more true for skaters, by perhaps an order of magnitude. Certainly skate instructor insurance is an order of magnitude more than cycle instructor insurance, which is very cheap indeed.
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Oh, I see, yes, most cycling accidents don't involve other vehicles. With those that include other vehicles the driver's usually at fault.
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I didn't make myself quite clear. I'm referring to cyclists injuring or killing pedestrians and skaters compared to getting injured or killed themselves, whether or not anyone else is invloved in the cause.
I'm basically saying that cyclists are more often the victims than the perpetrators of actually dangerous things.
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I can't see how letting someone rollerblade in a cycle lane is anti cycling. Isn't it similar to a slow cyclist in the cycle lane? It's not cyclists keeping out of their way, it's just accepting someone else using the cycle lane.
It is not similar at all. A slow cyclist in the cycle lane is still a cyclist in the cycle lane. A rollerblader should not be in the cycle lane.
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It is not similar at all. A slow cyclist in the cycle lane is still a cyclist in the cycle lane. A rollerblader should not be in the cycle lane.
What is the problem for you with them being in the cycle lane, and where else do you want them to go?
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I can't see how letting someone rollerblade in a cycle lane is anti cycling. Isn't it similar to a slow cyclist in the cycle lane? It's not cyclists keeping out of their way, it's just accepting someone else using the cycle lane.
It is not similar at all. A slow cyclist in the cycle lane is still a cyclist in the cycle lane. A rollerblader should not be in the cycle lane.
I expect that you are technically correct.
I still don't care. Unless they are putting me in danger, I'm happy for them to be on rollerskates, pogo sticks, space hoppers or whatever. In fact, I'd find it mildly entertaining. I can't see what there is to get angry about.
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It is not similar at all. A slow cyclist in the cycle lane is still a cyclist in the cycle lane. A rollerblader should not be in the cycle lane.
What is the problem for you with them being in the cycle lane, and where else do you want them to go?
They are dangerous and unpredictable, they have no brakes. I don't care where they go so long as it isn't in the cycle lane.
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Brake
(http://www.inlineplanet.com/2006-08/31/Resources/adjustablebrake.jpeg)
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They're injuring and killing themselves far more than hurting others.
But it's not whether "bad" cyclists are killing and injuring other road users or not, it's that they just pee people off.
You're walking on the pavement, and a person on a bike comes up silently from behind at 15mph and overtakes right next to you; no one is getting killed or injured but it's not a pleasant experience.
I rarely drive, but one time I overtook a cyclist, I eased off my speed and when there wasn't any oncoming cars I moved slightly to the right and passed with plenty of space, and it wasn't a narrow road, most drivers would have just gone in a straight line. Then I stopped at the next lights, the same cyclist then jumps the red light and goes onto the pavement to avoid the one way system after the lights. This is a busy High Street area with very narrow pavements and loads of pedestrians around.
Again nobody's died or injured, but even I got a bit peed off and I'm a cyclist!
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What is the problem for you with them being in the cycle lane, and where else do you want them to go?
I was wondering this. The only reason I've seen is the "weaving" gait described by Alexb: http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=53184.msg1076606#msg1076606
I can see how that could be a problem, but I don't know how BIG a problem.
I have a horrible feeling this will descend into unquantifiable opinions on how unpredictable/careless/hasty each user group is :(
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Dear Nutty,
I don't often say this, but:
You need to get a sense of proportion.
Somehow you've leapt from:
"ding dong" from a distance away is much more pleasant than how most cyclists use a bell - DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING.
To:
I hate bells,
And BTW, have you ever used a traditional bell?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413XHKFBKFL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Their standard mode is NOT a single ding; everyone knows the traditional sound these things make, so if you do something different, other RofW users may not register your approach. So leave off the lectures about how many dings constitute rudeness.
Try and reign in the nuttiness, please.
Dear mattc, apologies for quoting your post in full but the thread has moved on somewhat while I cooked and ate.
You are right, nuttiness reigned in a little; and I acknowledge that the lecture on rudeness was rudeness itself ;D Sorry about that.
Yes I have used a traditional bell, and the "ding dong" one I have looks quite similar to your picture. I suppose the issue isn't so much "the bell" but how the majority of cyclists seem to use them.
I do hate bells. I hate the intrusion their noise makes on the peace and quiet, I hate how the sudden noise makes me jump out of my skin, I hate being given earfuls when another rider sounds off (see post upthread re my experience on the Humber Bridge), I hate how they alienate the cyclist into "a thing" dinging along as opposed to a human being sharing the great outdoors with other humans, I hate how cyclists seem to think that ding ding = a given right to ride through without slowing down.
I wouldn't be so nutty as to call for a ban on bells, they do have their place and everybody should have a right to ring one. What I would call for though is for more give and take and for everybody to take care.
As I said upthread, I rarely sound the horn on the car so why should I ring the bell on the bike? It's much safer, and more pleasant, for all for me to simply ride with care and slow down if necessary. I walk relatively fast, and on narrow footpaths say "excuse me" if I want to pass somebody else; I take the same attitude when cycling. Or should I get a town crier's bell for when rambling and ring that when my path is obstructed ;D ;D ;D
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Again nobody's died or injured, but even I got a bit peed off and I'm a cyclist!
I know, but would it prompt you to start an anti-cyclists thread or phone a radio station?
In fact I instantly switch off now when I hear people moaning about cyclists on radio or TV - makes me puke - so what am I doing reading this thread? I shall stop! I'm out! See you on the rest of the forum, everyone.
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I was wondering this. The only reason I've seen is the "weaving" gait described by Alexb: http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=53184.msg1076606#msg1076606
I can see how that could be a problem, but I don't know how BIG a problem.
I have a horrible feeling this will descend into unquantifiable opinions on how unpredictable/careless/hasty each user group is :(
Here's about the most extreme and biggest you'll see, drafting a Sprinter van:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMUk11Tjtbw
The problem is that skates generate power by pushing sideways - essentially they are inclined planes that translate lateral force into forwards motion, so need more space than a cyclist takes up. OTOH it's easy to time your strides and go narrow when you need to pass someone, or someone needs to pass you.
And despite this large sideways space, on crowded rides such as the London to Brighton, skaters can filter through cyclists that can't move anywhere. Skaters are much more manoeuvrable and can fit through much smaller gaps than cyclists can. Peaceful and happy co-existence isn't a problem for either side.
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They are dangerous and unpredictable, they have no brakes. I don't care where they go so long as it isn't in the cycle lane.
But that's just your opinion, exactly the same as many car drivers feel about us cyclists. Can you quote and link a law that says skaters aren't allowed in cycle lanes, or are you just making it up?
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They are dangerous and unpredictable, they have no brakes. I don't care where they go so long as it isn't in the cycle lane.
But that's just your opinion, exactly the same as many car drivers feel about us cyclists. Can you quote and link a law that says skaters aren't allowed in cycle lanes, or are you just making it up?
Can you quote a law that says they are, or are you just appeasing non-cyclists?
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I hate how cyclists seem to think that ding ding = a given right to ride through without slowing down.
I don't see anyone here saying that. So it must be just some cyclists.
I wouldn't be so nutty as to call for a ban on bells, they do have their place ...
OK, woah, let's just stop there. I think we can all agree on that :thumbsup:
It's much safer, and more pleasant, for all for me to simply ride with care and slow down if necessary. I walk relatively fast, and on narrow footpaths say "excuse me" if I want to pass somebody else; I take the same attitude when cycling.
It's been said a hundred times - if you do this, there's a 50:50 chance they'll challenge why you haven't got a bell. We can't win!
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They are dangerous and unpredictable, they have no brakes. I don't care where they go so long as it isn't in the cycle lane.
But that's just your opinion, exactly the same as many car drivers feel about us cyclists. Can you quote and link a law that says skaters aren't allowed in cycle lanes, or are you just making it up?
Can you quote a law that says they are, or are you just appeasing non-cyclists?
I don't need to - the UK is a permissive society. I win if you can't find said law. The cycle lane is entirely appropriate for HPVs such as skaters.
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I've never been challenged about my lack of bell. If I want pedestrians to be aware of my existence, I should "Bike coming!" if I'm going reasonably quickly, or "Excuse me please."
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It's been said a hundred times - if you do this, there's a 50:50 chance they'll challenge why you haven't got a bell. We can't win!
Precisely. I passed a couple of elderly dog walkers on a shared use path a few weeks ago. I rang my bell from about thirty yards behind them, they turned, called their dogs over and made space for me to pass. As I did so one of the ladies said "Nice to hear a bell for a change, thank you".
So I will always ring the bell.
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Again nobody's died or injured, but even I got a bit peed off and I'm a cyclist!
I know, but would it prompt you to start an anti-cyclists thread or phone a radio station?
In fact I instantly switch off now when I hear people moaning about cyclists on radio or TV - makes me puke - so what am I doing reading this thread? I shall stop! I'm out! See you on the rest of the forum, everyone.
Me too, the anti-cyclist idiots are so ill-formed about cycling that there's no point trying to argue with them.
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On the other hand..
(http://www.triplethire.com/images/goodies_jpg.jpg)
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Again nobody's died or injured, but even I got a bit peed off and I'm a cyclist!
I know, but would it prompt you to start an anti-cyclists thread or phone a radio station?
In fact I instantly switch off now when I hear people moaning about cyclists on radio or TV - makes me puke - so what am I doing reading this thread? I shall stop! I'm out! See you on the rest of the forum, everyone.
Me too, the anti-cyclist idiots are so ill-formed about cycling that there's no point trying to argue with them.
That's all true, most of the time they are. In this case though, it's my experience that there's at least some justification.
p.s. I'm sad you're out Biggsy, I thought you made some excellent contributions here.
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I hate how cyclists seem to think that ding ding = a given right to ride through without slowing down.
I don't see anyone here saying that. So it must be just some cyclists.
In my first reading of the response, I got the implication of that from AndyK's post (possibly due to some of the videos I've seen), but that might just be me reading it wrong.
...And if those you are trying to warn of your approach take no notice? Is it better to approach in silence and risk a collision - at whatever speed someone will be hurt - or is it better to do the best you can to let them know you are approaching? ....
But yes, it might be "some" cyclists who I've met when out walking/cycling and who seem to use the bell instead of the brake.
It's much safer, and more pleasant, for all for me to simply ride with care and slow down if necessary. I walk relatively fast, and on narrow footpaths say "excuse me" if I want to pass somebody else; I take the same attitude when cycling.
It's been said a hundred times - if you do this, there's a 50:50 chance they'll challenge why you haven't got a bell. We can't win!
I was challenged once, when I was actually waiting to speak to somebody in the group as opposed to wanting to get past. After several rounds of "ring your bell if you want to get through, oh you don't have a bell do you" "I don't want to pass I'm waiting for kevin" "ring your bell if you want to get through, oh you don't have a bell do you" "I don't want to pass I'm waiting for kevin" "ring your bell if you want to get through, oh you don't have a bell do you" "I don't want to pass I'm waiting for kevin" "ring your bell if you want to get through, oh you don't have a bell do you" "I don't want to pass I'm waiting for kevin" I was grateful I was on the commuter which at that time had a traffic warning AirZound. I leant on the button, and when they climbed back out of the trees I said "that's why I don't have a bell". ;D
I'm sticking with what I said upthread. My vocal chords are good enough for shared use/segregated paths, and when on the road I either shout if required or possibly use an airzound as warning (not had it fitted in ages though as I got fed up with keep topping the air up but never using it). Ultimately though, slow down and take avoiding action rather than sound a warning.
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I quite enjoyed this clip from tonight, it seems very appropriate given this discussion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV7GDc1DvgA
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That's not really any different to a car driver telling you to get on the cycle path, and just as wrong.
It's VERY different. Roads are not called car paths, or car lanes or car tracks, because they are not specifically for cars. CYCLE lanes CYCLE tracks and CYCLE paths on the other hand ARE specifically for cyclists.
+1
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It's VERY different. Roads are not called car paths, or car lanes or car tracks, because they are not specifically for cars. CYCLE lanes CYCLE tracks and CYCLE paths on the other hand ARE specifically for cyclists.
No it's not, skaters are also HPVs and are perfectly entitled to use the cycle lane. I feel a lot less entitlement and much more tolerance will make your road and cycle lane sharing a much more pleasant and fair experience for everyone. We saw that same sense of unfair entitlement when it came to the rowing club example.
It is not called an HPV Lane, it is called a CYCLE Lane. If you're not on a cycle don't be in it.
+1
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It is not called an HPV Lane, it is called a CYCLE Lane. If you're not on a cycle don't be in it.
Why are you so intolerant and unsharing? You are the same as the car drivers who tell you to get off the road. You don't have any right to tell skaters to get out of the cycle lane, nor pedestrians either. Waay too much sense of entitlement, IMO.
<sigh>
No, it's nothing like the same.
Cycle lanes are for cyclists only. Not for anyone else. Like pavements and footpaths are for pedestrians.
Roads are for all, with pedestrians, cyclists, horse-riders and, probably, rollerbladers being the only ones with a right to use them.
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Honest John, but where is the law banning inline and quad skaters from cycle lanes? If you can't find that, it's only your opinion, and it's wrong.
Cycle lanes, for example especially in Hyde Park, are also the most appropriate place for skaters, since they are HPVs and move more similarly to cyclists than to pedestrians or cars.
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Oh, and skaters are fine on pavements too, quite legal. It'd be rude to use them at any speed, but that's a different matter.
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Oh, and skaters are fine on pavements too, quite legal. It'd be rude to use them at any speed, but that's a different matter.
Thats only because there are so few of you lot ;)
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Honest John, but where is the law banning inline and quad skaters from cycle lanes? If you can't find that, it's only your opinion, and it's wrong.
I've already referred you to the relevant legislation.
Some cycle lanes/tracks/paths can be only for cyclists. It is only those cycle lanes/tracks/paths which have been created from a pre-existing footpath which by default can be used by pedestrians.
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I've already referred you to the relevant legislation.
Some cycle lanes/tracks/paths can be only for cyclists. It is only those cycle lanes/tracks/paths which have been created from a pre-existing footpath which by default can be used by pedestrians.
Have you proved that skaters aren't permitted? I'm not seeing that.
In Hyde Park, per the code of conduct, the expectations of cyclists giving way to all other path users is very obvious. Do you agree?
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I've already referred you to the relevant legislation.
Some cycle lanes/tracks/paths can be only for cyclists. It is only those cycle lanes/tracks/paths which have been created from a pre-existing footpath which by default can be used by pedestrians.
Have you proved that skaters aren't permitted? I'm not seeing that.
What are you blathering about? I've given you the legislation.
In Hyde Park, per the code of conduct, the expectations of cyclists giving way to all other path users is very obvious. Do you agree?
We all know that Royal Parks are subject to special rules and legislation (e.g. speed limits for cyclists). Nobody has suggested otherwise.
Frankly, it seems clear that you are not going to change your view, despite being presented with evidence and will simply continue to put up straw man arguments.
I'm out of this thread...
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Additionally, all on road cycle lanes can be used by skaters since they are part of the public highway. Any argument on that?
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More importantly, Regulator, why do you keep dismissing her experience of bad and rude cyclists as wrong/unjustified/imagined? It matches my own experience and that of a number of other skaters, which is that it's more than a minor problem, and similar to what we cyclists get on the road.
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Additionally, all on road cycle lanes can be used by skaters since they are part of the public highway. Any argument on that?
So I can drive in a Bus Lane then, because it is part of the public highway? Oh wait, no, I can't. ::-)
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And on foot in a bus lane? Instant fail of your argument via the right to pass and repass.
Contrary to Reg's assertions, he's not shown an example of a single cycle lane that is only for pedal cycles, and more importantly not a general status either. For example, drivers are allowed to use mandatory cycle lanes on the road when they have to, and advisory ones at any time.
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And on foot in a bus lane? Instant fail of your argument via the right to pass and repass.
Pass and repass is not the same as traveling along. You are trying ti justify cyclists being second class citizens on the only place actually designated to them. Maybe you're pissed off at your super injunction being made public this week (http://www.metro.co.uk/showbiz/879844-jeremy-clarkson-drops-pointless-injunction-against-ex-wife-affair-claims), but seriously, you're wrong, accept it.