Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Topic started by: spenceey on 02 January, 2012, 10:06:47 am
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Hi all
I've been reading these forums for a while but this is my first post.
I'm looking for some wheels currently for my new build (VN Yukon) which will suit me for all year round commuting (40 miles a day), club runs on the weekends and the occasional audax event.
As I'll be riding on these all year round I need them to be durable, which brings me on to asking, Spa cycles have Chrina 32 on to ultegra hubs for £250. Are ultegra hubs durable enough for all year riding?
I'd like to know what other options I have available Ambriso zenith on to Chrina seem like a very good deal at under £200.
I'm not entirely sold on mavic op. I haven't ever used them but read many horror stories, unless I can be convinced otherwise.
I've looked at hope hubs (which I was pretty sold on) until I heard that damn hub noise!
My budget would be £300 but if I found perfect wheels for a little more I'm sure I could stretch.
Cheers,
Spence
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Welcome to the forum Spenceey.
Chrinas on Ultegra hubs would make ideal audax and general purpose wheels and Spa apparently build them very well. I would choose 36h rather than 32 though - the weight difference is minimal for a significant benefit in durability.
Some people here have had durability issues with Zenith hubs, so make sure you research those properly before committing to them.
Chrinas are excellent rims and have a thicker braking surface than Open Pros, so they are more durable, albeit a tiny bit heavier. They are very popular with audaxers.
I personally use Open Pro Ceramic on my audax bike, which are lighter than Chrinas but don't seem to wear at all due to the hard ceramic coating on the braking surface. Spendy though and you need the right brake pads for them.
A lot of people here build their own wheels too - it's not difficut with patience and the right kit - if you want to find out more get hold of Roger Musson's ebook from www.wheelpro.co.uk and have a read. There's an advantage for audaxers in learning to build wheels as you are then able to maintain them confidently on the road if you ever need to.
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I've looked at hope hubs (which I was pretty sold on) until I heard that damn hub noise!
As i started to read your post I was thinking Hope !
Personally I love the noise of the Hope hubs, especially now they have quietened down a bit after a 100 miles or so.
Plus points for me are:
audible warning for errant peds
remind me to keep pedalling
IMO they roll a lot better than the Shimano 105 hubbed wheels I had before (with OP rims)
My Hopes are built in to Ambrosio Excellence rims which are worth a look too, or if you can stretch to it DT Swiss RR465.
I'd echo Tewdric's comments about home-built wheels using Roger Musson's book as a guide. I won't ride anything else now.
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Ok glad to hear that Ultegra can hold up to year round riding, they will be picking up a lot of gunk during the winter months I'd imagine!
On the subject on Zenith hubs I've heard a lot of conflicting reviews, some people have said they are awesome for the money, but other people have had problems under 1k miles in. Could they be just a bad batch?
I have looked at the open pros and have also been swayed by them. Is there really much between them and Chrinas though? I can get a decent ultegra/ open pro CD (new ceramic) build for £265 here which is only £15 more than the Ultegra Chrina build.
I have thought of building my own wheels but at the moment time is of the essence, I may have a go at building up a wheelset during summer time, when I can sit out in the garden!
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I use the Ultegra/Chrina combo.. re. durability, it really is no problem at all as long as the hub is properly adjusted and serviced every 6 months or so (maybe 4-6 for your mileage). The only thing worth mentioning is that the hubs really need checking for grease and adjustment when brand new - I've had too many over-tight shimano hubs from the factory not to check this every time. Spa may well do that anyway but it really is worth asking them.
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You can't really compare Chrina and mavic OP. Chrina are a heavy-duty rim, and OP are lightweight.
I and several others have found that OP are a bit too lightweight for high mileage riding (unless you like replacing your rims frequently).
I have a Chrina on my bike and my only complaint about it is that it is a very big rim and fitting some tyres can be extremely difficult. Continental and Schwalbe are difficult to fit.
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I wouldn't worry about longevity of any decent hub if you service them regularly - in a winter I chewed through three chains/casettes + 1 BB on my similar legnth cross-London commute, the hub has remained a-ok. Stands to reason to me, as I would have said it is that much more protected than almost any other component (except the steerer, maybe) and the rotational forces would tend to throw crap out.
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You can't really compare Chrina and mavic OP. Chrina are a heavy-duty rim, and OP are lightweight.
I and several others have found that OP are a bit too lightweight for high mileage riding (unless you like replacing your rims frequently).
I have a Chrina on my bike and my only complaint about it is that it is a very big rim and fitting some tyres can be extremely difficult. Continental and Schwalbe are difficult to fit.
But I was under the impression that Chrina are a cheaper alternative (albeit heavier) version of OP's? I'll be riding with conti gatorskins 25mm most of the time, will this be a problem?
Does Ultegra sound like the best option? Rather than saving money and going for a 105 build on Chrina/ Open pro?
I just guess I'm stuck whether to go for Open pros or Chrina.
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I've looked at hope hubs (which I was pretty sold on) until I heard that damn hub noise!
As i started to read your post I was thinking Hope !
Personally I love the noise of the Hope hubs, especially now they have quietened down a bit after a 100 miles or so.
Plus points for me are:
audible warning for errant peds
remind me to keep pedalling
IMO they roll a lot better than the Shimano 105 hubbed wheels I had before (with OP rims)
My Hopes are built in to Ambrosio Excellence rims which are worth a look too, or if you can stretch to it DT Swiss RR465.
I'd echo Tewdric's comments about home-built wheels using Roger Musson's book as a guide. I won't ride anything else now.
From watching the you tube videos of hope hubs they sound as though they make a lot of noise.
With regards to building my own I won't be doing it with this wheel set (I'm currently in the stages of moving house so don't really have the time plus spending a lot of money I worry about my quality of wheels I'd produce.
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I have Hope hubs and have never actually noticed the noise. Oops!
IMHO, they are fabulous and have a colossal advantage over the Shimano hubs because they have sealed bearings instead of cup and cone. The latter require so much faffing about that I just CBA.
I'd go Hope and OP for fast and reliable wheels.
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I almost went for the Hope build on OP but the noise put me off. That and the fact I'd read a few horror stories about Mavic OP splitting. Not something I can deal with when I'm using 1 bike for everything.
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Chrinas are very much like Open Pros, (both have 15mm internal width) just a little heavier. They are heavier in a good way and seem to be a bit more durable.
Open Pros are good but sometimes they crack around the nipples. I have had this happen to me.
I have had bad experiences with Ambrosio hubs, I've had two sets of them and both were endless sources of toil and pain. I think they have a design flaw.
Hope Hubs are fabulous. I have one on my best bike. They are probably 150% the price of a Shimano hub though
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I got into Open Pros when they were inexpensive. One dealer at one time was even selling them for £15 each, with free postage. The weight to price ratio was fantastic.
You're unlikely to have a horrible experience with an Open Pro (remember that people are more motivated to post about bad rather than good experiences), but yes you should do better with an alternative make, in terms of ease-of-building and longetivity. I would miss having it so easy to fit and remove tyres, though.
I agree that any big-name hubs will be ok if serviced regularly and adjusted properly - though not all hubs can be serviced or adjusted at all, apart from changing the cartridge bearings (which may be easy or hard, depending on the model).
Go for 36 spokes at the back (at least), unless a particular 32h option happens to be a lot easier or cheaper to get hold of - otherwise there is extremely little disadvantage. 32 versus 36 spokes (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=53820).
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So the Chrina sound like a winner then. Don't get me wrong if this was a summer or fair weather (are they the same thing?) bike I would have jumped at having open pros. But I need them to be hard wearing and relatively light weight.
Ultegra also sound like the hubs to go for as there isn't much in price between them and 105, so the weight saving will come from the hubs. Are Ultegra as easy to look after as 105 though?
I've got Shimano 2200 hubs on Alex R450 on my bike at the moment so whatever I buy is going to be an improvement!
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You can't really compare Chrina and mavic OP. Chrina are a heavy-duty rim, and OP are lightweight.
I and several others have found that OP are a bit too lightweight for high mileage riding (unless you like replacing your rims frequently).
I have a Chrina on my bike and my only complaint about it is that it is a very big rim and fitting some tyres can be extremely difficult. Continental and Schwalbe are difficult to fit.
Chrina is given by Spa as 510g, Open Pro quoted elsewhere as 435g, so yes, a significant difference.
That's useful information about tyre fitting. I wish ease of fitting comparisons between rims & tyres were more generally available.
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I wish ease of fitting comparisons between rims & tyres were more generally available.
We started to try... http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=53372.0
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i've asked on this forum before about quiet good quality hubs, but it appears there aren't any, except shimano which are half decent. if i were you and needed a single all-rounder bike, i'd try to have it setup with disc brakes (maybe roadified cx bike?).
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It's hard to believe that 75g difference per rim is going to change a lot isn't it? Or should I be looking at something like the velocity A23 rim?
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It's hard to believe that 75g difference per rim is going to change a lot isn't it?
Yes. I don't believe it. I like lightweight components, and that's why I chose Open Pros, but I don't kid myself that I'd really be worse off with +75g rims.
By the way, quoted rim weights are just nominal. Actual weight varies according to the state of the dye at the time of extrusion.
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You can't really compare Chrina and mavic OP. Chrina are a heavy-duty rim, and OP are lightweight.
I and several others have found that OP are a bit too lightweight for high mileage riding (unless you like replacing your rims frequently).
I have a Chrina on my bike and my only complaint about it is that it is a very big rim and fitting some tyres can be extremely difficult. Continental and Schwalbe are difficult to fit.
Chrina is given by Spa as 510g, Open Pro quoted elsewhere as 435g, so yes, a significant difference.
That's useful information about tyre fitting. I wish ease of fitting comparisons between rims & tyres were more generally available.
Well, SJS have the Chrina at 13mm internal (and it does look narrow). They also list the weight as 590gm.
590 vs 435 is quite a big difference. I used a Chrina to replace an OP wheel and the rim did feel (in the hand) substantially heavier than the OP.
It will depend quite a lot on the number of drillings. The Chrina is double-eyeletted, so a 36 hole will be heavier (by a bit) than 32 hole.
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If it weighs in at 590 that is quite a big difference. Back to the drawing board I don't think an Open Pro rim would suit me riding it all year around in all weathers.
My other option looks like the Velocity A23 rim (with 25mm gatorskins) and Ultegra hubs. What do you think?
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That Velocity rim looks interesting. No experience of it though.
Ambrosio Excellence look a little chunkier than OP and quoted as 460g. http://www.samcycling.com/ can get 36h for you if struggling to find elsewhere.
Rim weight (rotating weight) counts more than hub weight though...so I keep being tempted by IRD Cadence...sub 400g !
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Spence,
I have open pro on hope, and while I do hate to say it I have come to the conclusion that the seals on them leave something to be desired.
They are good hubs however and they are fairly easily self serviceable.
I did like the noise until I experienced the complete silent freewheeling of my gym bike. Now I'm not so enamoured. Oh well. You can quiet it down by adding grease.
If (when) I were to get new wheels I would probably go for chrina on ultegra from spa. shimano apparently have much better seals.
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I am leaning more towards the chrina build but the weight issue is a little off putting. The velocity a23 are 23mm wide which is wider than both the open pro and chrina but as light as the open pro. Built up on a ultegra 32 hub these should be pretty strong. If the build for them comes in at under 250-300 I'm on to a winner. If not I'm sure ill be going with the chrinas just hearing different quotes on the weights has put me off a little.
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The velocity a23 are 23mm wide which is wider than both the open pro and chrina
The a23 has an external width of 23mm. All other rim makers give the internal width. If it really did have an internal width of 23mm you'd have to fit quite wide tyres
This stuff about the weight is a bit of a red herring if your real aim is to do all year riding and audaxes. If the wheel is lighter it will wear out quicker
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This stuff about the weight is a bit of a red herring if your real aim is to do all year riding and audaxes. If the wheel is lighter it will wear out quicker
He speaks with great wisdom, does this one.
TT wheels are not uber-light; they are aerodynamic. Light wheels only really matter for stop-start riding.
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I have Open Pro, Chrina, Exal XR2 and DRC ST17 at the moment. All similar profile.
Adtually I tell a lie, I have Chrina but will not use them. I built a Chrina based wheel a few weeks ago and then stripped it immediately. I found it simply too difficult to fit my usual Continental or Michelin tyres (at least when new). This would be something to consider in a commuting rim at least because I'd not want to be struggling to refit a tyre. These are tyres that I do not need levers to fit or even to remove on Open Pro. The wall of the Chrina is 2mm greater in diameter than the Open Pro. ST17 is slightly bigger than Open Pro so I cannot remove the tyre without levers but can fit it easily enough. Yes I know very well how to fit tyres properly, I've been doing it 50 years. Chrina and Exal XR2 are comparatively cheap rims so do not have the cosmetic finish of Open Pro or ST17.
So my input would be - forget Chrina, probably forget Mavic because of reputed quality issues in recent years, consider ST17 except that Spa do not do them, consider Exal XR2 which Spa supply.
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Spoken to Just Riding Along this morning. Their advice was to go for the velocity A23 build, as they supply a lot of these for audax and the purposes I've outlined they are stronger than Open Pros but the weight difference is small.
Ultegra on 32h Velocity A23 with black DT Comp spokes comes in at £284 which seems like a great deal. The Ultegra on Chrina was £250 so for a significant weight saving £30 isn't much. £276 was the price for Mavic OP Ultegra so again not much more.
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This stuff about the weight is a bit of a red herring if your real aim is to do all year riding and audaxes. If the wheel is lighter it will wear out quicker
[pedant]Not if the bits that wear are the same.[/pedant]
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If you're bothered about weight but want durability Open Pro Ceramic are the way to go. (They are changing over to a new version now though and stock seems hard to get hold of).
If you want a lightweight rim and don't mind paying more for quality look at DT Swiss RR465.
Beware of retailers saying they supply a lot of product x for your purpose - they will recommend what they get the biggest markup on.
I have never seen anyone use velocity rims on audax rides but have seen plenty using Open Pro and Rigida Chrinas.
Having a quick look around the bits to make Open Pro / Ultegra wheels with Sapim race spokes are a tad under £220, so the quoted price doesn't look all that competitive. If they're using genuine DT Competition spokes that would account for an extra tenner. Bits for Ultegra/Chrina/Sapim are just over £170.
Do shop around - Big Al at Wheelcraft has a good reputation and Spa's wheels are well thought of. The quality of build is critical by the way - that's where the wheel's strength comes from.
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If you're bothered about weight but want durability Open Pro Ceramic are the way to go. (They are changing over to a new version now though and stock seems hard to get hold of).
If you want a lightweight rim and don't mind paying more for quality look at DT Swiss RR465.
Beware of retailers saying they supply a lot of product x for your purpose - they will recommend what they get the biggest markup on.
I have never seen anyone use velocity rims on audax rides but have seen plenty using Open Pro and Rigida Chrinas.
Having a quick look around the bits to make Open Pro / Ultegra wheels with Sapim race spokes are a tad under £220, so the quoted price doesn't look all that competitive. If they're using genuine DT Competition spokes that would account for an extra tenner. Bits for Ultegra/Chrina/Sapim are just over £170.
Do shop around - Big Al at Wheelcraft has a good reputation and Spa's wheels are well thought of. The quality of build is critical by the way - that's where the wheel's strength comes from.
My problem is I'll be riding them almost every day. Mavic OP seem great but not for something I'd ride everyday of the year in all weathers.
Velocity A23 are used widely for Cyclecross and people rave about them, I thought that if they can hold up during CC surely they'll be more than tough enough for audax/ commuting?
I know It's more about the build quality hence why I'm having them built rather than doing them myself. I'm sure I could go for OP and have years of usage out of them without trouble. However I'm going with the ones which seem tougher and I can't afford to have a broken rim on my hands.
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My problem is I'll be riding them almost every day. Mavic OP seem great but not for something I'd ride everyday of the year in all weathers.
Tewdric mentions the ceramic version of the OP. The braking surfaces have a ceramic coating that basically doesn't wear out and so will last as long as you want them to. They need to be used with special brake pads. Some users say braking is good, some say braking is not so good. (I haven't tried them myself).
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Oh I know. I also thought you couldn't get hold of the Ceramic versions any more? Only the CD version?
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Oh I know. I also thought you couldn't get hold of the Ceramic versions any more? Only the CD version?
I didn't know that. Check via Google Shopping and eBay if anyone's got new old stock if they've been discontinued. Otherwise I agree with you that Open Pros won't be a good idea for the bike in question. You might as well go for the Chrinas that are recommended a lot on this forum. The ease of fitting tyres should be a secondary consideration once you've had some practice with the particular rim/tyre combination.
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My other concern was the weight of the Chrina rims. I can't seem to find a definite answer as to the weight. Most of the places online (apart from Spa) quote the wheels at 590g which is a lot. If someone could confirm that the weight is less than that I'd probably change my mind.
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But it's worth having extra weight for the sake of durability and relatively low cost. You could claw some weight back by using lightweight (but durable-enough) tyres - such as Vittoria Rubino Pro or folding Panaracer Paselas - and ultralight inner tubes.
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These http://www.alexrims.com/product_detail.asp?btn=1&cat=1&id=49 are the rims I've been using for the last 2 years and have held up well. I've had 2 spokes break in that time, been touring on them twice and cycled 40 miles commuting 3 days a week. They've got cheap Shimano 2200 hubs on the moment which are surprisingly doing OK.
I thought as I'm buying a new frame I'd also like some new wheels more suited to the type of riding I do and ideally weighing less than my current wheels but still be just as strong. The Velocity A23s look ideal for this. They are wider and weigh 450g as opposed to the 470g of my current rims.
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I had Ambrosio Excellence on my audax bike: I got 20,000 miles out of them before I replaced them with another pair last year. And the old ones are still doing service on my winter bike.
Built by Big Al, of course.
I've another pair, with Open Pros and Hope Hubs. The hubs are lovely, the rims are wearing much more rapidly than the Ambrosios. I got the rear wheel free from a mate, who didn't like the noise the freehub made. He asked if I could make it run more quietly. Adding more grease helped a bit, but not enough for him. 'Ach, just keep the f*ing thing, then!' He sold me the front wheel for £30. Not a bad deal IMHO.
Personally, I'd go for Excellence rims on Hope hubs.
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Chrina and Exal XR2 are comparatively cheap rims so do not have the cosmetic finish of Open Pro or ST17.
This is quite true. Open Pro are welded at the seams, wereas Chrinas are pinned.
Can we just discuss what a "strong durable fast" rim is?
1) Strong - should survive pothole hits, carrying 20 stone rider, panniers full etc
2) Durable - braking surfaces do not wear
3) Fast - light wheel that will accelerate well. I am ignoring aerodynamics
Open Pro are stronger and faster than Chrinas but not as durable.
If you add the 4th factor to the list, price, you will realise that no one rim can do it all. In fact if a rim came along claiming to be all those things and cheap then I would not believe it. Chrinas are half the price of Open Pros
In your deliberations you have also ignored spokes. Double or triple butted spokes will be slightly lighter and (debatably) give a better ride and be stronger
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In your deliberations you have also ignored spokes.
Sapim Race and DT Competition have been mentioned, and these are double butted. I hope plain gauge won't even be considered for a second.
It's fatigue resistance rather than strength that is the issue. Double or triple butted are more fatigue resistant than plain. Though I have used triple butted (DT Alpine III, on rear drive sides), they are heavier and more expensive than Competition and Race, and are probably OTT anyway for Spen.
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Open Pro are stronger and faster than Chrinas but not as durable.
Rim choice has very little to do with wheel strength in these cases. The strength is all in the build.
Before we start that debate in this thread (no problem if we do but I'll probably split it), here's a little light reading:
http://www.icelord.net/bike/thebicyclewheel.pdf
Oh I know. I also thought you couldn't get hold of the Ceramic versions any more? Only the CD version?
They are said to be bringing out a version 2. I'm sure someone must have stock if you search around!
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Another vote for Chrinas here.
I have been using them for the last 5 years and wouldn't change.
I would also recommend double-butted spokes as normal spokes break (for me).
H
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Some of the wheel strength comes from the rim, but I agree that it shouldn't normally be a big consideration, and Open-Pro-like rims are strong and stiff enough for most uses for most riders. But Chrina-like rims are preferable in this case for durability.
Regarding weight: don't think of the Chrina as being heavy; think of the Open Pro as being very light. A bike for which durability is important does not need very light rims. Yes rotating weight is more relevant than static weight, but it's not as a big deal as you're thinking, Spen, with the kind of weight differences in question.
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Balls all these recommendations flying around.
I find it hard to believe that my current cheap wheels do most of what I want but I'd like a lighter more durable pair and It's hard to find. I was sold on the Chrinas until the weight issue was raised that then lead me to the Velocity A23's which now people are saying go with the more durable.
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In that case, let's confuse matters even more for you.... Mavic Aksiums. *evil cackle*
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I'd say you've got enough info to make your own decision now, Spen. Sleep on it, then your mind will be clearer.
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I'd say you've got enough info to make your own decision now, Spen. Sleep on it, then your mind will be clearer.
I'd agree with you normally but I'm crap at making decisions. Took me well over 2 months to decide on a ti frame of about 3. I just need to be told I need X rims.
I suppose I don't want to spend a lot of money only to find out 6 months down the line their shot and I'll be coming back here whining.
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That's cycling fora for you :-)
Another thought - if performance is important to you and you go with Open Pros, and they wear out more quickly, it's not a big deal getting replacement rims laced on the the same hub and spokes.
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Balls all these recommendations flying around.
I find it hard to believe that my current cheap wheels do most of what I want but I'd like a lighter more durable pair and It's hard to find. I was sold on the Chrinas until the weight issue was raised that then lead me to the Velocity A23's which now people are saying go with the more durable.
What did you expect when you ask a varied selection of complete strangers the same question? ;)
I've never heard of the the Velocity A23s (they may be great for all I know) and although I know Mavic Open Pros are often used by Audax riders, have never ridden on them myself.
What I do know is that to a degree (and regardless of the rim used), the way the wheel is built, the spokes that are used, the terrain you will be riding on and the weather you will be riding in will have the most appreciable effect on the lifespan/durability of the finished article.
H
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Another thought - if performance is important to you and you go with Open Pros, and they wear out more quickly, it's not a big deal getting replacement rims laced on the the same hub and spokes.
Or to do it yourself if you know how to true a wheel. The actual lacing is almost a no-brainer, since the spokes are just swapped over one at a time.
BUT, Open Pros aren't great value for money any more, IMO, so I find myself in the odd position of suggesting that Spen doesn't get Open Pros, despite being a fan of them myself. I stocked up with spare rims when they were a lot cheaper.
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or, as TheLurker mentioned, get two pairs of mavic aksiums (if you shop around you can get a pair for £120), one for audax and commuting with appropriate tyres and wider range cassette, antother for club runs with faster tyres and close ration cassette. you will have the second pair as spare, in case something happens to the first. aksiums are pretty light, cheap and reliable, and they're easy to mount tyres on.
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Spoke to Spa at lunch the Chrina with 105 weighs 2240 grams and a whopping 46g less with the ultegra hub! 2kg seems like a lot for wheels though, or am I wrong?
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I've just received my Open Pros with DT swiss 370 hubs from Rose bikes and they way 2kg together without skewers or cassette. I weighed them myself.
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Spoke to Spa at lunch the Chrina with 105 weighs 2240 grams and a whopping 46g less with the ultegra hub! 2kg seems like a lot for wheels though, or am I wrong?
IIRC my Excellence rims on Hope hubs (combination also recommended by Eck earlier) came in somewhere between 1.8 kg and 1.9 kg... anyway slightly more than the Fulcrum 7s that came as standard on my Ti bike; but like spenceey durability was more important to me than the last few grams.... and they were 32/36 spoke rather than the 20/24 of the Fulcrums and common on many lighter wheelsets.
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Spoke to Spa at lunch the Chrina with 105 weighs 2240 grams and a whopping 46g less with the ultegra hub! 2kg seems like a lot for wheels though, or am I wrong?
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The weight isn't that important. If you have wheels/tyres that are 100g lighter then YES! you will notice the difference when doing stuff like accelerating out of corners BUT overall it is small potatoes. The difference in weight will give you a warm feeling but it will make a tiny, miniscule difference to real speed.
If you are really concerned there is a great web site http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings.php
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Now these are nice wheels.... http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=180791
If I had the dosh I'd snap these up right now :)
Usual disclaimer.
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So the weight saving if I went for the velocity A23 build would be almost half a kilo (400g) that's going to be noticeable.
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Now these are nice wheels.... http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=180791
If I had the dosh I'd snap these up right now :)
Usual disclaimer.
Lovely wheels those.
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This stuff about the weight is a bit of a red herring if your real aim is to do all year riding and audaxes. If the wheel is lighter it will wear out quicker
[pedant]Not if the bits that wear are the same.[/pedant]
This raises so many questions, which I suspect Mavic etc are unlikely to answer clearly:
- Are the 'wearing' bits the same material (ignoring ceramics)?
- Are they thicker, thus lasting longer?
- When two rims are worn to their limit, is the weight difference the same as when new?
etc ...
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Now these are nice wheels.... http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=180791
If I had the dosh I'd snap these up right now :)
Usual disclaimer.
But would these be ideal for what I want to do with them? Ceramic is much more hard wearing. But what about the bladed spokes?
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IIRC Chris Kings are noisier than Hopes.
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The noise is better though. Not as noticeable. They also look great for the price.
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Good quality bladed spokes are great in nearly every way, except for the price. They are so fatigue resistant that you can use the one set for the rest of your life. I got Sapim CX Ray for one of my front wheels. I couldn't afford to get them for the rear! Also, being not the world's most skilful wheel builder, I was worried about not getting high-enough tension from them, but I suppose that should be no problem for a good builder.
2 kg is NOT heavy for a pair of wheels. It is light for your type of bike. It's not very long ago that it would have been considered light even for a racing bike.
DATA FROM MY LITTLE BROWN BOOK...
My best wheels (without skewers):
Front (Chorus, Open Pro, 32 CX-Ray, alloy nipps): 728 grams
Rear (Chorus, Open Pro, 36 Alpine III (DS)/Laser (NDS)): 946 grams
Total: 1674 grams
Another one of my front wheels (Chorus, Open Pro, 32 Race, brass nipps): 764 grams.
But remember these aren't as durable as you want. An extra 200g per wheel WOULD NOT REALLY MATTER. Make up for it by using lighter tyres than you originally had in mind, with ultralight inner tubes. DT alloy nipps on front and rear NDS will be ok if lubed with anti-seize. You'll save 50g from using ultralight instead of standard inner tubes alone.
Warning: weight-weenieism leads to madness. You'll end up spending £3 to save one gram; changing steel bolts to titanium, aluminium or even nylon ones; and drilling holes in everything, including your head to release excess brain gravy.
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Make up for it by using lighter tyres than you originally had in mind, with ultralight inner tubes.
light tyres wouldn't by my choice for all-round use. even in an audax, a single puncture will cancel out all the imaginary (or real) speed benefit. and if it happens in the wrong time / inclement weather..
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Light tyres can be reasonably puncture resistant when weight is saved at the casing, sidewalls, and beads, rather than much at the tread. A kevlar puncture resistant belt needn't weight much either.
The folding version of the Panaracer Pasela, for example, is in the racing tyre category for weight, but in the light-touring tyre category for practicality. Some versions of the Vittoria Rubino Pro are also light for the amount of practicality.
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Are the ck wheels good for what I want to do though? The ceramic rims are the toughest aren't they? Which makes them perfect for commuting and audax.
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I've used Open Pro Ceramics a number of times and I have to say they can be a mixed blessing. Braking is good to start with but as time goes by, the ceramic can glaze and eventually the braking efficiency drops below the plain alloy equivalent. I've had it become so bad that I've had virtually no brakes in extreme wet although to be fair, those rims were pretty old and it was before I learnt about the glazing issue. Mavic even market a soft carborundum block to address this point but in my experience, it's more trouble than it's worth to keep having to grind through the glaze on a regular basis and I have in the past, junked rims for this reason even though they weren't worn out otherwise.
I've also had Open Pros regularly split on me before I learned that they are sensitive to too much tension and somewhere else on the forum someone recently pointed out that Mavic state that "the recommended tensions must be respected". Mavics have acquired a reputation for having let quality slip since they switched manufacture to the Far East and my very well respected LBS reckons the Ambrosios (Excellight for lightness, Excellence for something a bit more robust) are a better bet.
I'd certainly agree with other postings above with regard to the wisdom of going for 36 spokes - you'll never notice the difference in the ride but 36 is definitely more robust than 32. The Ultegra hubs are a first class piece of kit and will give very good life provided you give them an annual service, which is pretty simple to do at home. Servicing hubs yourself isn't always straightforward, even with cassette type designs, especially the rear hub; there are several different ways of putting cassette hubs together and some require special tools, whereas to tried-and-tested cup-and-cone is pretty straightforward, all good stuff for a bike that gets a lot of use and needs to be reliable.
I've not used the Velocity rims but I note this extract from http://www.dcrwheels.co.uk/products/manufacturers/ :- "Velocity rims and hubs: Made in Australia. A fantastic company making some of the best products on the market at great prices. ......... Some of their fixed gear based products have established quite a reputation here so potentially their presence here will grow."
I guess you pays your money and makes your choice ....
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Thanks mate. I think I'm gona go for the open pro ck build as its such a good price. The ceramic will hopefully have plenty of life in it and ill use the correct pads all the time. When it comes to replacing them ill move over to velocity.
If I don't like the ck for any reason. They seem perfect for me then ill go for the velocity build I think.
Doesnt the ck wheelset look perfect for what I want?
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......Doesnt the ck wheelset look perfect for what I want?
Technically you could say they are overkill in the bling direction for your requirements, but at the price, I don't think you can go far wrong, assuming they're put together properly (and given the cost of the original components, I think it's unlikely the chap who built them would be the sort not to build them right).
Given the reputation of Chris King stuff, it's pretty unlikely you'll need to go inside them for a very long time, so the servicing point won't trouble you soon. My comments about the Open Pro ceramics was just to strike a word of caution; they aren't the be-all and end-all that some people imagine. Just keep them as clean as you can (as with any rim) and look out for the glazing. In any event, they won't glaze sooner than a plain alloy rim will wear through, so you'll easily get the same life out of them. And when they do eventually expire the rest of the kit will be good for more than one set of replacement rims.
And they do look pretty!
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Thanks Pedro thats the kind of answer I was looking for! Very constructive. I never had my eyes on blade spokes before but since these wheels seem to be very well built if I can put up with the hub noise I think I'm on to a winner, even if they do look quite bling! My first concern was that of blade spokes not being as strong as convenional spokes.
Also your right about the hubs hopefully they'll last me years!
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If you are weighing up performance vs weight then perhaps Audax is not for you?
What about Sportives or road races? These are the events where (as I understand) weight vs component performance is (as I understand) jolly important.
Just a thought.
H
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If you are weighing up performance vs weight then perhaps Audax is not for you?
What about Sportives or road races? These are the events where (as I understand) weight vs component performance is (as I understand) jolly important.
Just a thought.
H
There's definitely room for more weight weenies in audax - it'll form a nice juxtaposition with our usual ramblings of how a saddlebag/light/route sheet holder was codged together :D
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If you are weighing up performance vs weight then perhaps Audax is not for you?
What about Sportives or road races? These are the events where (as I understand) weight vs component performance is (as I understand) jolly important.
Just a thought.
H
There's definitely room for more weight weenies in audax - it'll form a nice juxtaposition with our usual ramblings of how a saddlebag/light/route sheet holder was codged together :D
Consider the Mille Cymru (http://audaxing.wordpress.com/2010/06/30/stressing-over-the-mille-cymru/). I did. Loosing a lot of weight makes a tiny difference even on a long ride with lots of ascent.
If the OP fancies Velocity A23 wheels he should go ahead and get them. But don't imagine it will lead to any kind of physical advantage. The mental game is a different matter however
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I honestly wouldn't consider myself a 'weight weenie' at all. After all I've gone and brought a light touring/ audax bike. Surely I would have brought a CF or TI road bike? I just feel that as I've got the money to spend on a nice set of wheels I don't want them to weigh what I consider a lot.
I've set myself the challenge to do more audax rides during 2012 but this wheelset will be mostly used for commuting and weekend rides. The CK wheelset ticks all the boxes for this, sure enough the blades look a bit more blingy than I would have chosen but the ceramic rims and hub have way more advantages.
Funnily enough my next problem is looking for tyres.
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One can wander into the weight weenie way even when you start off with an average bike: in the form of upgrading madness. Just warning you. ;D The mindset is not to have the lightest bike possible, but to make the sort of bike that you want and can afford as light as possible. (I have been there and done that).
Well done for making a decision on the wheels. For tyres, start off by reading up on the various versions of Vittoria Rubino Pro. I'd get 25mm if I were you. 23mm are too harsh (and not fast) on worse than average road surfaces. 28mm on a long-distance bike, in my opinion, is only worth it if you'll be riding on a lot of bumpy paths or badly broken-up tarmac, and of course are heavier than 25mm tyres of the same models.
Recommended inner tubes: Schwalble Extra-Light, Michelin Ultralight, Vittoria Ultralight. An 18-23mm size can be used in 25mm tyres, at the expense of slightly less durability and air-holding ability, compared to the same model of a larger size.
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Rubino pro or Krylion carbon (or the new version) are both good choices. I agree with Biggsy about 23mm, but not about 28mm.
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I've been riding 28mm gatorskins for the last 3 years and have had 25mm gatorskins on my fixed gear for 2 years. They are both solid tires but given the choice I'm going to go for 25mm again I think, I can always buy a set of 28mm if I plan on light tours.
Are the Vittoria Rubino Pros grippy in the wet? That's my only criticism of the Gatorskins.
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Yes, they are pretty good. Not as long lasting as the Krylion carbon, but I think they have an even better feel (and are easier to get hold of).
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Funnily enough my next problem is looking for tyres.
These:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=20460
In 700x25c.
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Quite a few reviews saying that once you get to a certain distance on them the puncture resistance starts to give up.
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In my experience, that's true of most lightweight tyres (with the possible exception of marathon and durano plus).
I've found that width and pressures also matter. 1.5"x26" Paselas run at 65psi last 4-5000miles. 1"x700c Paselas run at 100psi last 2-3000miles.
I don't think you can have hardwearing, lightweight, puncture resistant and grippy in the same tyre.
Bontrager Hardcase have a good reputation for being lightish, hardwearing and puncture resistant - but slip slidy in the wet.
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Quite a few reviews saying that once you get to a certain distance on them the puncture resistance starts to give up.
I use Michelin Krylion and before the prices got silly I used Continental 4 Seasons all in 25mm. I use them for everything including cycle camping and mild off road riding. I tend to get flats caused by hawthorn, but hawthorn gets through just about everything. Longevity - Michelin say 5000km for a Krylion, so that's about 3000 miles. I've only done a bit more than 2000 miles on the Krylions but they look to be holding up well and I am happy enough that I have bought a stock of them. 4 Seasons, I suppose I got between 3 and 4 thousand miles - it is hard to tell because I fit new tyres before going on tour and then tend to put them on a hack to wear out the last 1000 or so.
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Or is it worth me going for a rigid version (would that get more life out of the tyres)?
If not I may go for the recommendations above. My commuting miles are about 4.8k a year, so I'd only have to replace them once (fingers crossed!)
The Michelin Krylion Carbon are only £20 each from ribble. Balls just checked they are no longer available.
EDIT -- OK it doesn't look like you can get hold of the 25mm version much any more.
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I don't think you can have hardwearing, lightweight, puncture resistant and grippy in the same tyre.
Cheap as well please!! I'm not getting into this tyre discussion. Agree that Krylions are quite nice
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EDIT -- OK it doesn't look like you can get hold of the 25mm version much any more.
Chain Reaction bought the last remaing stock from Michelin. They're being replaced or rebranded as Pro 4 something, no doubt at considerably more than 25 quid. Get some while you still can. Some of us have been stocking up..
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Or is it worth me going for a rigid version (would that get more life out of the tyres)?
No
Rigid is cheaper, heavier and lasts no longer.
I think the Krylion Carbon is rebranded as Pro 4 Endurance.
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What would be the difference of them and something like below;
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/continental-ultra-gatorskin-road-tyre-and-tube-set/
In 25mm of course.
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I'll leave that for someone else to answer - I've never used gatorskins.
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EDIT -- OK it doesn't look like you can get hold of the 25mm version much any more.
Chain Reaction bought the last remaing stock from Michelin. They're being replaced or rebranded as Pro 4 something, no doubt at considerably more than 25 quid. Get some while you still can. Some of us have been stocking up..
looks like they will be found at 40 EUR in Germany http://www.starbike.com/p/Michelin-PRO4-Endurance-4752-en
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looks like they will be found at 40 EUR in Germany http://www.starbike.com/p/Michelin-PRO4-Endurance-4752-en
27 Euro in France http://www.xxcycle.com/krylion-carbon-700x25,,en.php my favourite supplier.
Sorry - misread, your link is for the new PRO4-Endurance.
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I'll leave that for someone else to answer - I've never used gatorskins.
I'm a big fan of gatorskins. But not sure about the weight saving of the folding tyres
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Thanks for all the help with this subject guys. Chris King wheelset is on It's way. My next subject is off to tyres, depending on what I can get hold of maybe be the ones recommended above or Gatorskins.
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I would imagine that if you are cycling with
Hamsterskins Gatorskins in an area free from flint then fine.
I live in Hampshire and have only had grim experiences of these and now use/recommend the Continental 4 Seasons for Audax as they are pretty puncture resistant (until they wear down). Even so, a cursory glance to remove flinty incursions still stuck in the tyre is a good idea on a regular basis (if one remembers to do so :-[).
H
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Ok so the Chris king wheels fell through. What are your thoughts on the planet x a57 or model c wheelset. They look perfect for me and come in at a good price any experiences?
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I would imagine that if you are cycling with Hamsterskins Gatorskins in an area free from flint then fine.
I live in Hampshire and have only had grim experiences of these
H
Here we go again . . .
My experience has been very different, both on my bikes & Mrs B's. I wouldn't generalise from that to say they're bulletproof, & given that I've met many other people with a favourable view of Gatorskins, I can't take seriously those people who say that since they once fitted one to a bike & had a puncture, they're useless tyres.
PS. I live in Reading, & do a lot of my cycling in flint-ridden country, where there's so much of the stuff they built walls & houses from it.
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Ok so the Chris king wheels fell through. What are your thoughts on the planet x a57 or model c wheelset. They look perfect for me and come in at a good price any experiences?
A significant number of very experienced audax riders have already made recommendations, and none have suggested cheap taiwanese factory built wheels!
Ring Spa. Order Chrina rims on Ultegra hubs with Sapim Race spokes. Buy a pair of Michelin Krylion Carbon 700x25c from Chain Reaction. Then stop worrying about wheels and just ride your bike. ;)
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Whatever you buy, *DON'T* get factory built wheels. Just don't.
There are plenty of wheelbuilders around. Big Al. Spa. Woodrups. Many others suggested by people on here. Just don't get factory built wheels, even if they say 'hand tuned'.
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I'd get factory wheels if I had a couple of grand to spend and someone to come and rescue me at any time.
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Ok so factory wheels are a no no for audax. I may go for the a23 ultegra build.
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Ok so factory wheels are a no no for audax. I may go for the a23 ultegra build.
It's not so much a "no no".
FWIW my OH rode her first 200 last w/e on cheapish low spoke count factory wheels - Fulcrum 7
More a case of minimising the chances of failure - if you have the choice. If she'd broken a spoke it would have been a certain DNF.
With rims that are a known quantity (like the Chrina or the Open Pro) and a sufficiency of spokes (32 or better still 36) a broken spoke does not necessarily mean the end of the ride.
The A23 look like a very interesting rim.... but I don't know many on here or on CC who have it.
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Just riding along.
Miche Primato on Velocity A23 rims - recommended by a lot of wheel builders as they are easier to build on than Mavic OP. 32 spokes front and rear and only £242 for the set. Sounds like a winner to me!
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Just riding along.
Miche Primato on Velocity A23 rims - recommended by a lot of wheel builders as they are easier to build on than Mavic OP. 32 spokes front and rear and only £242 for the set. Sounds like a winner to me!
Went with this set.
Weighs in at 1822 for the set which is incredible, at the same time they are strong wheels, used by a lot of Cyclocross riders. Was worth going for the 32 spokes over the 28 just for a peace of mind. With postage it cost £253 which means I saved £50 on my other ideas which is a bonus.
The wheels are sealed bearings and can be replaced with ceramic too if that would make things any better?
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Funnily enough my next problem is looking for tyres.
These:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=20460
In 700x25c.
Shit no longer available.
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Shit no longer available.
:facepalm:
That's hard luck, spenceey. You must have just missed the last of them. I ordered some at the weekend, got them yesterday. (Not that that's any help to you.)
FWIW, people seem to like Schwalbe Durano Plus as an alternative. I've no experience of them myself. Or it might be worth looking at one of the many flavours of Vittoria Rubinos: I've used some of the cheaper models on my winter bike, and found them very reliable.
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The wheels are sealed bearings and can be replaced with ceramic too if that would make things any better?
For the love of god, please no, just ride the things as they are.
Send me your address - I'll bring some tyres round. Anything to end this madness.
;)
[ You can upgrade to ceramic when you've worn out the current ones! ]
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Oh no no way I'll be buying ceramic bearings just yet!!
I just need to order some decent tyres and I'll be happy. Gatorskins tick all the boxes but don't stick well in the wet which for a commuting, audax, club run bike isn't all that great!
Are these any good?
http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m2b0s121p32
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Send me your address - I'll bring some tyres round. Anything to end this madness.
;)
Don't relax just yet Matt - It'll be groupset next! ;D
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Oi! I'm riding the groupset which I'm swapping over.
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Shit no longer available.
:facepalm:
That's hard luck, spenceey. You must have just missed the last of them. I ordered some at the weekend, got them yesterday. (Not that that's any help to you.)
FWIW, people seem to like Schwalbe Durano Plus as an alternative. I've no experience of them myself. Or it might be worth looking at one of the many flavours of Vittoria Rubinos: I've used some of the cheaper models on my winter bike, and found them very reliable.
Durano Plus are a lot heavier. Given the OPs fear of weight a Schwalbe Ultremo DD might be better
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I reckon the slightly higher weight of the Durano Plus is far outweighed by never having to deal with punctures. If you're after durability and not having a bike that lets you down in a hurry you can't go far wrong with them IMO. They are also very easy to get onto Mavic OP rims. I changed mine after 5k miles for PBP with a new set just in case, but the old ones look brilliant still. I will be re-fitting them to my other bike also running Durano Plus's when they eventually wear out, but this may take some time :)
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Durano plus aren't actually a lot more than the Gatorskins.
Still undecided on tyres though. Is there a definitive tyre list?
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to be honest, I'm not sure tyres have ever been discussed on YACF before.
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to be honest, I'm not sure tyres have ever been discussed on YACF before.
;D
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My take on durano plus
Name well deserved.
Soggy ride unless pumped up hard - and then they are a very harsh ride.
Good tyre for the rear on a bike that does high miles.
You can use a lighter, smoother-riding tyre (such as Rubino Plus or Krylion carbon) on the front.
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I'm going to go with the 25mm gatorskin tyre and tube set from wiggle.
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Why? Why go for a tyre that gets a lot of complaints about poor grip and fragile sidewalls? Why ignore recommendations for Vittoria Rubino Pro?
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I've had Gatorskins for a while and have got on with them fine.
Although I never realised the Vittoria Rubino pro 3 folding were that cheap before! I may go for them then.
Are these the ones your talking about?
http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/sp/road-track-bike/Vittoria-TYRES-ROAD-TRI-TRACK-FOLDING-Vittoria-Rubino-Pro-3-Folding-Tyre/VITTTYRF610
Or Vittoria Rubino Pro 3 Tech Folding Tyre
http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/sp/road-track-bike/Vittoria-Rubino-Pro-3-Tech-Folding-Tyre/VITTTYRF630
If It's the first I'll plump for them they look quite good.
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Sorry, I didn't realise/remember that you already have experience with Gatorskins. You might as well stick with them as you've got on fine with them.
I was talking about all versions of Rubino Pro. Only try one of them if you fancy a change anyway.
Sorry again about my reply above. I've been feeling a bit odd today.
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No problem, don't worry about it.
What version on the rubino then? There's so many different vittoria tyres I'm lost!
If It's the cheaper ones I'd love to try them out. The Rubino Pro folding get quite good reviews actually.
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I reckon you'd like the Pro 3 version of Rubino Pro the best. The Tech version with reinforced sidewalls would be a bit over-kill for you, considering you don't mind the Gatorskin's sidewalls.
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Brilliant so the first cheaper choice?
It's not that I don't mind the Gatorskin side walls, just that I've never had anything happen to the side walls. Would it be worth me paying more for the tech?
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Just thought I'd let you all know I went with the 25mm Rubino Pro 3 tech folding. Look completely up to the job! Wheels should be here next week so should the last few bits I ordered for my bike build.
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The extra security from the Tech's reinforced sidewalls should be great for your commuting and audaxing. They'll only very slightly add something to the rolling resistance and weight.
Good luck with the build. I'll never forget the first ride on my Tifosi CK7. I deliberately didn't go for a test ride at all before it was absolutely finished*, complete with accessories. Its a nice feeling indeed to ride something that immediately feels almost perfect, that you've put together yourself.
* "Finished" for me doesn't mean leaving no excess fork steerer tube above the stem. You might want to raise the bars a bit one day.
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That's what I thought with the rubino pros, the extra protection may have a weight penalty but It's not something I can scrimp on at all.
I'm hoping mine will be ok if I measure them up with my current carbon forks. So long as the head tube is the same length.
Very excited now. Already planning some cycling rotues. Thanks for the help guys