Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Freewheeling => Topic started by: alexb on 17 July, 2013, 05:02:51 pm
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Well they are for the most part aren't they?
If I was going to build a system from scratch, the last thing I'd do, or want is to copy what's already there.
When I'm riding down the road, I just want to be able to shift up and down gears. I don't want to have to remember if the middle chainring, smallest cog is higher or lower than outer chainring and third cog. In an ideal world there'd be two buttons and there aren't there are four.
My hub gear does it right and with all that fancy technology, that's what I'd expect Shimano and Campag to do. Have the system be intelligent and figure it out. It might take a calibration step, but after that the computer should know all the possible gear combinations and execute them correctly to provide a higher or lower gear on demand.
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While I'm inclined to agree, I'm not sure I'd want to get a front shift when I expected a rear one. There's an easing off on the pedals inherent in derailleur systems that makes them tricky to automate.
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I've come to the conclusion that Di2/eps solves a problem I haven't got, and at great expense.
A gear cable is £2.
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imo the "doing it wrong" bit is doing it at all. :)
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My hub gear does it right ....
...except that to do it right it adds massive weight, complexity and cost in order to achieve that.
As an aside, the only Di2 I am considering is Alfine Di2, as that would address the issue of imperfect shifting register on Versa shifters for drops
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I've come to the conclusion that Di2/eps solves a problem I haven't got, and at great expense.
A gear cable is £2.
Similarly I see it as a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
It's more of a stimulant to the manufacturers sales figures.
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While I'm inclined to agree, I'm not sure I'd want to get a front shift when I expected a rear one. There's an easing off on the pedals inherent in derailleur systems that makes them tricky to automate.
You'd get a front and back shift at the same time if your current and target gears required changing both. I'm with you that I'd rather know what's going to happen when I change gear - if I flick one shifter the front moves and if I flick the other the rear moves. I like it that way.
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While I'm inclined to agree, I'm not sure I'd want to get a front shift when I expected a rear one. There's an easing off on the pedals inherent in derailleur systems that makes them tricky to automate.
So you just need to introduce an automatic clutch. And then you might as well have fully automated gearing. And then... I'm not sure what's next after that, but there will be something!
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Similarly I see it as a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
It's a solution to a couple of problems that do exist. But one (hand disabilities) doesn't sell in quantity, and they seem to have forgotten about the other (shifters in multiple positions) entirely.
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While I'm inclined to agree, I'm not sure I'd want to get a front shift when I expected a rear one. There's an easing off on the pedals inherent in derailleur systems that makes them tricky to automate.
So you just need to introduce an automatic clutch. And then you might as well have fully automated gearing. And then... I'm not sure what's next after that, but there will be something!
Fully automatic gearing has been done, unsurprisingly with a hub gear.
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I wonder what would happen if one molished one of these into the drive chain
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-GO-KART-MINI-BIKE-30-SERIES-TORQUE-CONVERTER-CLUTCH-DRIVER-1-BORE-/330905160344
Anyone tried?
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Fully automatic gearing has been done, unsurprisingly with a hub gear.
With derailleur gears too.
As for an electronic sequential shift, I too would not want an unexpected front change, especially not when I am changing to a lower gear and the electronics decides that is best performed by changing small to large on the front and then down a couple on the back. That would really screw you up half way up a climb because of having to ease off a lot to allow the front shift.
I regard a double (other than a half step double) as being more like Land Rover gearing with high ratio for normal use and low for anything that high ratio does not cope with.
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I've come to the conclusion that Di2/eps solves a problem I haven't got, and at great expense.
A gear cable is £2.
You're so wrong, it rules. ;) Don't knock it till you've tried it.
A gear cable gets bunged up with water and mud and doesn't change up, even a gore fully sealed one after a bit.
But the front shifting of di2 really is very very smooth. I thought the blurb about the electronics timing the change to coincide with the chain going over the ramps and pins was bollocks but it obviously isn't.
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However I agree that I still want control over the front and rear individually.
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My finger is a mechanical lever. My gear shifter is a mechanical lever. My derailleur is a mechanical lever with a couple of pivots. Replacing what goes in the middle of that lot with a rechargeable battery, microprocessor, electric motor etc is just madness.
Campagnolo put a stronger spring in their pushbutton switches so it would feel like an ergolever. :facepalm:
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A gear cable gets bunged up with water and mud and doesn't change up, even a gore fully sealed one after a bit.
Ever heard of something called bike maintenance?
Keep your bike clean and lubed, with new cables every year or so and you won't need an electronics engineer when things go wrong.
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But the front shifting of di2 really is very very smooth. I thought the blurb about the electronics timing the change to coincide with the chain going over the ramps and pins was bollocks but it obviously isn't.
Okay, points to them for that.
Also for eliminating the trimming of the front shifter problem.
Bung a strain gauge in there and you could delay shifting until the load eases up sufficiently.
All good stuff, but marginal gains at best.
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I've come to the conclusion that Di2/eps solves a problem I haven't got, and at great expense.
A gear cable is £2.
You're so wrong, it rules. ;) Don't knock it till you've tried it.
A gear cable gets bunged up with water and mud and doesn't change up, even a gore fully sealed one after a bit.
But the front shifting of di2 really is very very smooth. I thought the blurb about the electronics timing the change to coincide with the chain going over the ramps and pins was bollocks but it obviously isn't.
A gear cable won't suffer from flat battery / electrical gremlins! ;)
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My finger is a mechanical lever. My gear shifter is a mechanical lever. My derailleur is a mechanical lever with a couple of pivots. Replacing what goes in the middle of that lot with a rechargeable battery, microprocessor, electric motor etc is just madness.
Campagnolo put a stronger spring in their pushbutton switches so it would feel like an ergolever. :facepalm:
I just don't think the idea of a bike that relies on the strength of a spring to pull a cable through its outer is seamless enough for me. Sure it can always be got to work eventually but it misses changes which riles me.
Road, mountain, shimano, sram, fully sealed, lubricated - they all fail to upshift at the rear at times, eventually.
It might be different if you are the sort of cyclist who is prudent enough to only ride their "summer" bike when it's dry, and their "winter" bike is fixed. Neither of which applies to me ;)
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But the front shifting of di2 really is very very smooth. I thought the blurb about the electronics timing the change to coincide with the chain going over the ramps and pins was bollocks but it obviously isn't.
Okay, points to them for that.
Also for eliminating the trimming of the front shifter problem.
Bung a strain gauge in there and you could delay shifting until the load eases up sufficiently.
All good stuff, but marginal gains at best.
Oh yeah , and the chain NEVER rubs the front mech 8)
Continue denying the advantages without having tried it for as long as you like, you're fighting a losing battle ;D
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I've come to the conclusion that Di2/eps solves a problem I haven't got, and at great expense.
A gear cable is £2.
You're so wrong, it rules. ;) Don't knock it till you've tried it.
A gear cable gets bunged up with water and mud and doesn't change up, even a gore fully sealed one after a bit.
But the front shifting of di2 really is very very smooth. I thought the blurb about the electronics timing the change to coincide with the chain going over the ramps and pins was bollocks but it obviously isn't.
A gear cable won't suffer from flat battery / electrical gremlins! ;)
There's an easy solution to bunged up gear cables. (Well, someone has to mention it in every thread about gears...)
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I'll let you know what I think once I've figured out what the problem is with my down tube friction shifters ;)
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Continue denying the advantages without having tried it for as long as you like, you're fighting a losing battle ;D
To be honest, Ben - you're fighting a losing battle against a bunch of luddites who think the bicycle reached the pinnacle of its design in about 1954 :P
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I wonder what would happen if one molished one of these into the drive chain
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-GO-KART-MINI-BIKE-30-SERIES-TORQUE-CONVERTER-CLUTCH-DRIVER-1-BORE-/330905160344
Anyone tried?
Torque converters only work at upwards of 1000rpm, rather beyond even Chris Froome's cadence :)
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Has no-one mentioned the NuVinci (or other Continuously Variable Transmissions) yet?
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The NuVinci hub is rather lossy.
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Continue denying the advantages without having tried it for as long as you like, you're fighting a losing battle ;D
To be honest, Ben - you're fighting a losing battle against a bunch of luddites who think the bicycle reached the pinnacle of its design in about 1954 :P
Well, yeah - probably right there ;)
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I'm far from a luddite, I just (like many on here) have no interest in racing, so see little benefit in racing-oriented electronic shifting.
And I'm not holding my breath for manufacturers to start producing electronic systems for other purposes, which is a shame, because there *are* advantages which are going to be worthwhile to some of the people some of the time.
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I've not got electronic gears and I don't particularly want them. But bike gears is just the latest in a long list of things where mechatronic systems have replaced purely mechanical systems. Often these started off as very expensive options but the economies of scale that you get with electronics are generally greater than the ones you can achieve when manufacturing and assembling complicated and precise mechanical systems.
Back in the late 70's early 80's if a car had fuel injection it was a real big deal for high performance cars only. Who'd want a carb fed engine now? In 20 years time, when Shimano Tourney gears are electronic, purely mechanical gears will be made in limited quantities for collectors and enthusiasts, like mechanical watches are now.
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Actually, that's an interesting point.
At a basic level, it's just a linear actuator, a sensor or two, some buttons, a power source and a microcontroller. Assuming comparable manufacturing costs due to economies of scale, it doesn't seem outside the realms of possibility that a Tourney-level electronic groupset would work better for longer than a mechanical one, purely because it could automatically recalibrate itself to compensate for the slop and wear in cheap mechanical parts.
Of course it would be unserviceable throw-away sealed units, but that's what people are used to these days, and is standard treatment for low end bikes as a whole. People running Tourney groupsets generally don't know how to adjust gears properly anyway, so automating that would be a major advantage.
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I've come to the conclusion that Di2/eps solves a problem I haven't got, and at great expense.
A gear cable is £2.
You're so wrong, it rules. ;) Don't knock it till you've tried it.
A gear cable gets bunged up with water and mud and doesn't change up, even a gore fully sealed one after a bit.
But the front shifting of di2 really is very very smooth. I thought the blurb about the electronics timing the change to coincide with the chain going over the ramps and pins was bollocks but it obviously isn't.
I have tried it
Its good...I know that. That isn't the point I'm making really. I don't really have an issue with cable derailleurs. If they are well set up they work fine, but I don't doubt that electronic is easier in the long run. Problem is it is pretty expensive, and I don't imagine it is going to prove to have a long life.
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Why don't you think it will have a long life?
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Lots more to go wrong mechanically and electronically.
Its the replacement cost of the parts that puts me off
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My problem is I get the urge to replace a component simply when it is not working 100% perfectly, rather than tolerate a minor annoyance and only replace it when it is actually broken, which it seems a lot of cyclists do.
I think di2 will be more black and white than that, so I think it would suit me. It wouldn't suit everybody, though - I admit.
I'm quite rich - I don't mind *spending* money on replacing something when it genuinely needs replacing, but I can't stand *wasting* money (or time), which cable gears tempts me to do.
The way I see it cable derailleurs just don't work for me, so di2 is a necessity, not just a luxury.
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At the moment it is expensive. So is the Dura Ace mechanical groupset. In many ways the system is more robust than mechanical systems - I know more or less the lifespan of mechs on my commuter bike - a bike where it is not possible to give it the TLC at 8.45 am after a wet ride in that I would give a race bike. It has to survive in poor conditions.
It is an interesting development and one which could make it much easier, especially when coupled with electric assist bikes, for those who are less than fully physically competent. (And having a second set of shifters on the ends of my tri-bars would be nice)
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Continue denying the advantages without having tried it for as long as you like, you're fighting a losing battle ;D
To be honest, Ben - you're fighting a losing battle against a bunch of luddites who think the bicycle reached the pinnacle of its design in about 1954 :P
Well, yeah - probably right there ;)
Ahem. Surely you're 20 years out. 531 was invented in 1934. Everything else is just waffle.
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Continue denying the advantages without having tried it for as long as you like, you're fighting a losing battle ;D
To be honest, Ben - you're fighting a losing battle against a bunch of luddites who think the bicycle reached the pinnacle of its design in about 1954 :P
Well, yeah - probably right there ;)
Ahem. Surely you're 20 years out. 531 was invented in 1934. Everything else is just waffle.
Nah, you're waaay out as well. Everything after the 1880s/1890s, when the safety bicycle with pneumatic tyres and chain drive came about, is just waffle. :demon:
;)
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It is an interesting development and one which could make it much easier, especially when coupled with electric assist bikes, for those who are less than fully physically competent.
Let's face it - when you're getting a battery and electric motors to change gear for you, you're already riding an electrical assist bike. Slippery slope. :demon:
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But the front shifting of di2 really is very very smooth. I thought the blurb about the electronics timing the change to coincide with the chain going over the ramps and pins was bollocks but it obviously isn't.
Okay, points to them for that.
Also for eliminating the trimming of the front shifter problem.
Bung a strain gauge in there and you could delay shifting until the load eases up sufficiently.
All good stuff, but marginal gains at best.
Oh yeah , and the chain NEVER rubs the front mech 8)
Continue denying the advantages without having tried it for as long as you like, you're fighting a losing battle ;D
I'm sure there are advantages. It's just that to a fat rider like me the advantages don't justify the price tag.
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It is an interesting development and one which could make it much easier, especially when coupled with electric assist bikes, for those who are less than fully physically competent.
Let's face it - when you're getting a battery and electric motors to change gear for you, you're already riding an electrical assist bike. Slippery slope. :demon:
Fair enough, as long as it lasts 4 figures of km and the battery isn't that heavy,I don't care if it is
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One place where I would pay good money for it (assuming good enough weather proofing) is my Rohloff-equipped MTB. I can live with grip shift as the price to be paid for the other advantages, but I'd Really, really like to go back to trigger shifters if I could. The nature of the Rohloff shifting mechanism makes it look like an ideal candidate for Eshifting to me. Unfortunately, I imagine that the market size wouldn't justify anybody doing the development work...
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But the front shifting of di2 really is very very smooth. I thought the blurb about the electronics timing the change to coincide with the chain going over the ramps and pins was bollocks but it obviously isn't.
Okay, points to them for that.
Also for eliminating the trimming of the front shifter problem.
Bung a strain gauge in there and you could delay shifting until the load eases up sufficiently.
All good stuff, but marginal gains at best.
Oh yeah , and the chain NEVER rubs the front mech 8)
Continue denying the advantages without having tried it for as long as you like, you're fighting a losing battle ;D
I'm sure there are advantages. It's just that to a fat rider like me the advantages don't justify the price tag.
Fair point it's s alright for me to say when I'm pretty much free to spend as much of my disposable income as I like on bikes, but I would like to make the point that the advantages are not just shaving 0.1s off your time to get ahead of a competitor, but that it's harder to get a gear change wrong when you're lazy and tired and thus makes a ride much more satisfying.
It's up to the individual how much that's worth to them, and what else they've got to spend that money on.
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One place where I would pay good money for it (assuming good enough weather proofing) is my Rohloff-equipped MTB. I can live with grip shift as the price to be paid for the other advantages, but I'd Really, really like to go back to trigger shifters if I could. The nature of the Rohloff shifting mechanism makes it look like an ideal candidate for Eshifting to me. Unfortunately, I imagine that the market size wouldn't justify anybody doing the development work...
Wouldn't be that hard to make, all you'd need is a motor that rotates a certain number of degrees each time, or until it goes past resistance. Connect that to your 8mm nut and you're there
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Wouldn't be that hard to make, all you'd need is a motor that rotates a certain number of degrees each time, or until it goes past resistance. Connect that to your 8mm nut and you're there
Bi-directional, too, of course.
Yeah, like I say, in principle it's an ideal candidate. But there are enough complicating factors (eg water-proofing; my bike frequently goes through BB depth liquid mud on winter after-work rides) to make it a non-starter as a cobbled-together-at-home project, even if I had the time. And I reckon the Market is too limited to justify a third party manufacturer developing something.
Now, if Rohloff themselves were to think about it... As Kim mentioned, up thread, multi-location shifting and special shifters for disabled users would be other good applications. And Rohloff are probably proportionately over represented in recumbents, hand cycles, etc, so it would be a good marketing tool for them. I wonder if they read this forum. ;)
I've also pondered hydraulic shifting...
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From an aesthetics point of view. It's way too early to buy into di2. The derailleurs look pig ugly, like the designers were too lazy to think of a radical new design so bolted on some plastic boxes to make the derailleurs look bulky.
When in the world of cable gears you have a beautiful work of art in the Dura ace 9000 series.
I think electronic will be the way to go, but ill wait about 5 years when they find a way to make it look pretty.
Lets be honest, that's all that matters right?
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I've come to the conclusion that Di2/eps solves a problem I haven't got, and at great expense.
A gear cable is £2.
You're so wrong, it rules. ;) Don't knock it till you've tried it.
A gear cable gets bunged up with water and mud and doesn't change up, even a gore fully sealed one after a bit.
Would Di2/eps work properly after you'd ridden through crossbar-deep water?
Cables do.
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Would Di2/eps work properly after you'd ridden through crossbar-deep water?
Cables do.
Yes. Although I don't know what sort of idiot would ride a road bike through crossbar-deep water though :P
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Interesting (obvious) point that Kim raises. Electronic shifting is introduced as an expensive tech for racing, as are most new bike technologies - tubeless tyres, disc brakes, carbon fibre, aluminium, derailleur gears, suspension, etc back to 1880 - but end up mass market, where some are more appropriate and some are bastardised. Tubeless tyres on a one-piece wheel with disc brakes might be perfect for commuters and utility riders, in ten years.
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Would Di2/eps work properly after you'd ridden through crossbar-deep water?
Cables do.
Yes. Although I don't know what sort of idiot would ride a road bike through crossbar-deep water though :P
1) I don't believe it would (anyone here tried it? test videos showing immersion under pressure.)
2) The sort of idiot who wants to get home - sometimes there isn't an option.
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1) I don't believe it would
And here lies the problem with this thread - most people are just making assumptions without any first or even second hand experience of electronic shifting. I just thought I'd carry that on :P
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I've tried Mavic Zap and Mavic Mechtronic in the past. I'll wait a fair while before trying this version of electronic shifting.
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1) I don't believe it would
And here lies the problem with this thread - most people are just making assumptions without any first or even second hand experience of electronic shifting. I just thought I'd carry that on :P
I'll put it another way then.
Based on my current experience with electronics (on bikes, boats and living a semi-outdoor life), I don't believe that the electronic shifters will cope with complete prolonged immersion. There is no reason why something designed for high-end bicycle racing would have that sort of protection built-in (reliable function and light weight being more important).
There may well be something produced in the future that would cope with this sort of abuse, but not yet.
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1) I don't believe it would
And here lies the problem with this thread - most people are just making assumptions without any first or even second hand experience of electronic shifting. I just thought I'd carry that on :P
You are of course spot on.
Witness the same with those with no real experience of carbon fibre feeling they have the ability to comment on its non-suitability.
I don't doubt that within a decade electronic will be the norm for mid-range road bikes.
Here's a point though....
Why no electronic MTb kit?????
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I'm pretty sure I've seen pics of electronic MTB kit.
My commenting on electronic shifting is not like someone whose never used carbon fibre commenting on its suitability. I have plenty of experience of working with electric motors in damp environments.
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Grovelling around in the bilges of some crappy old barge doesn't really relate to 21st century technology ;D
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niiiice
I'm not in a good mood atm so please excuse me if I now come across as rude.
wtf do you know about the systems I've worked on? Oh, absolutely nothing.
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Are you ever in a good mood ;D ;D ;D
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Grovelling around in the bilges of some crappy old barge doesn't really relate to 21st century technology ;D
The problems of waterproofing and electronics have not fundamentally changed. No reason it can't be done right, but it's not easy.
No reason it can't come down to more sensible prices either - electronics don't have to be expensive and the complex mechanical shifters at the handlebar are eliminated. They're just shafting the must-have brigade for a bit at the moment. :P
I'll see where it's at when my current kit wears out, but I'd need some convincing on the battery question for touring. Then again if my bike has a single battery for the shifting, lights and GPS then I could see that working.
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I think you are right about the shifters. Essentially they become a switch.....although of course they will never retail for less than mechanical
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I'm pretty sure I've seen pics of electronic MTB kit.
When Di2 first came out, there were quite a few Americans having a go at hacking it:
http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/article/shimano-di2-hacking-takes-off-in-us-31445/
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One place where I would pay good money for it (assuming good enough weather proofing) is my Rohloff-equipped MTB. I can live with grip shift as the price to be paid for the other advantages, but I'd Really, really like to go back to trigger shifters if I could. The nature of the Rohloff shifting mechanism makes it look like an ideal candidate for Eshifting to me. Unfortunately, I imagine that the market size wouldn't justify anybody doing the development work...
Wouldn't be that hard to make, all you'd need is a motor that rotates a certain number of degrees each time, or until it goes past resistance. Connect that to your 8mm nut and you're there
An electronic shifting unit already exists for the Rohloff. I'm not sure if it's actually any good.
I should also draw your attention to a trigger-style shifter (a bi-directional ratchet thing) that appeared in one of the videos from this year's SPEZI. I think it was a prototype.
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Data point: Someone's Di2 system drowned on the Exmouth Exodus (known for its apocalyptic weather) last year and got stuck in the highest gear.
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Data point: Someone's Di2 system drowned on the Exmouth Exodus (known for its apocalyptic weather) last year and got stuck in the highest gear.
That could be viewed as a sort of advantage. In a perverse way. A broken cable will always dump you in highest gear, but presumably an electronic system could be configured to 'crash' into a middle gear as its default failure.
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Nope, it can't. Fail = stuck in the current gear.
I've done some reading and seems campag had major problems with waterproofing but their current generation has IP67 cert. Working in (temp) total immersion down to 1m. That's very impressive.
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Data point: Someone's Di2 system drowned on the Exmouth Exodus (known for its apocalyptic weather) last year and got stuck in the highest gear.
That could be viewed as a sort of advantage. In a perverse way. A broken cable will always dump you in highest gear, but presumably an electronic system could be configured to 'crash' into a middle gear as its default failure.
What it needs (for touring and the like) is a screw you can stick your multi-tool in, or whatever, to crank it manually to a gear of choice.
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Nope, it can't. Fail = stuck in the current gear.
I've done some reading and seems campag had major problems with waterproofing but their current generation has IP67 cert. Working in (temp) total immersion down to 1m. That's very impressive.
You're probably right. But I was thinking something along these lines: if there's a failure of the switch but the shifting mechanism itself still functions, then the egubbins that mediates between switch and shifter says "switch kaput, default to middle gear". Being electronic rather than simply electric, it can be "self-aware" and know it's broken, was my thought.
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Data point: Someone's Di2 system drowned on the Exmouth Exodus (known for its apocalyptic weather) last year and got stuck in the highest gear.
That could be viewed as a sort of advantage. In a perverse way. A broken cable will always dump you in highest gear, but presumably an electronic system could be configured to 'crash' into a middle gear as its default failure.
What it needs (for touring and the like) is a screw you can stick your multi-tool in, or whatever, to crank it manually to a gear of choice.
That would be useful on conventional mechanical gears too.
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Data point: Someone's Di2 system drowned on the Exmouth Exodus (known for its apocalyptic weather) last year and got stuck in the highest gear.
That could be viewed as a sort of advantage. In a perverse way. A broken cable will always dump you in highest gear, but presumably an electronic system could be configured to 'crash' into a middle gear as its default failure.
What it needs (for touring and the like) is a screw you can stick your multi-tool in, or whatever, to crank it manually to a gear of choice.
What about if you extended the screw and put a lever on it then perhaps connected the end of teh lever by a bowden cable to another lever say on the down tube or handlebars, oh hang on a minute ...
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Campagnolo have already thought of that: http://eps.campagnolo.com/en/technologies/ride-back-home
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What it needs (for touring and the like) is a screw you can stick your multi-tool in, or whatever, to crank it manually to a gear of choice.
That would be useful on conventional mechanical gears too.
Doable to at least some extent with the lower limit screw. I've only done it on a front mech, but it was sufficient to select the middle ring of a triple. Rear mech botchery usually requires a bit of cable, though.
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Doable to at least some extent with the lower limit screw. I've only done it on a front mech, but it was sufficient to select the middle ring of a triple. Rear mech botchery usually requires a bit of cable, though.
I managed to get my rear mech up a gear (or two?) when the cable went recently using the top gear limit screw. Flat ride anyway so that was all I needed.
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Nah. Rear mech can easily be bodged onto a middle sprocket with a mechanical system. Probably not the largest one, but how often do you need that?
Data point: Someone's Di2 system drowned on the Exmouth Exodus (known for its apocalyptic weather) last year and got stuck in the highest gear.
That could be viewed as a sort of advantage. In a perverse way. A broken cable will always dump you in highest gear, but presumably an electronic system could be configured to 'crash' into a middle gear as its default failure.
What it needs (for touring and the like) is a screw you can stick your multi-tool in, or whatever, to crank it manually to a gear of choice.
What about if you extended the screw and put a lever on it then perhaps connected the end of teh lever by a bowden cable to another lever say on the down tube or handlebars, oh hang on a minute ...
You may be onto summat there.
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There's an electronic shift box for the Alfine 11 speed hub gear, it's actually cheaper than buying the mechanical hub!
One advantage of the Alfine system is that it appears to allow for multiple shift levers to be fitted, so you could have up/down button units fitted on the tops of the bars as well as the hoods.
This to me is where the future of electronic shifting lies. I don't see a need to make the shift levers look like the regular levers. The shift box could plug into the side of the lever body, or be placed wherever was most convenient.
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What it needs (for touring and the like) is a screw you can stick your multi-tool in, or whatever, to crank it manually to a gear of choice.
That would be useful on conventional mechanical gears too.
Doable to at least some extent with the lower limit screw. I've only done it on a front mech, but it was sufficient to select the middle ring of a triple. Rear mech botchery usually requires a bit of cable, though.
I've never tried it, but the 'standard' botch is to shove a bit of stick in the parylellygram.
Apparently.
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But the front shifting of di2 really is very very smooth. I thought the blurb about the electronics timing the change to coincide with the chain going over the ramps and pins was bollocks but it obviously isn't.
Okay, points to them for that.
Also for eliminating the trimming of the front shifter problem.
Bung a strain gauge in there and you could delay shifting until the load eases up sufficiently.
All good stuff, but marginal gains at best.
Oh yeah , and the chain NEVER rubs the front mech 8)
Continue denying the advantages without having tried it for as long as you like, you're fighting a losing battle ;D
I'm sure there are advantages. It's just that to a fat rider like me the advantages don't justify the price tag.
Fair point it's s alright for me to say when I'm pretty much free to spend as much of my disposable income as I like on bikes, but I would like to make the point that the advantages are not just shaving 0.1s off your time to get ahead of a competitor, but that it's harder to get a gear change wrong when you're lazy and tired and thus makes a ride much more satisfying.
It's up to the individual how much that's worth to them, and what else they've got to spend that money on.
Good point. I tend to be more careful than I used to be about value for money since my wife and I went for a massive life simplification. If the benefits are there and I'm happy they justify the price tag I'll go for them. I like the idea of being able to have multiple shifters wherever you want them (as I understand it you could have regular brifter-like shifters as well as shifters on tribar ends and on the flats and on the downtubes and anywhere else you felt like putting them), but don't quite see how they make it harder to get a gear change wrong. If I can press the wrong part of a physical brifter surely I can press the wrong button just as easily?
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Mainly front mech changes that you can get wrong that you can't with di2, on a cable system, to change to a larger cog it's not just pressing it but how hard (you can press it not hard enough, and it can fail to "catch on" ime ... yes ok it always works perfectly for you I hear you say, ok well maybe I'm just a bit more ham fisted )
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It's also the timing. The Di2 can time the push of the mech so it coincides perfectly with the ramps on the chainrings, making shifts almost seamless.
It can also park your bike nicely too (pace wiggins in the giro).
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If the front changing is so smooth with electronic shifting, then, back to the OP, why not a sequential shift for efficiency?
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Sequential shift would be the logical progression of this technology, but that could still involve front and rear derailleurs. You would press the up or down button and the system changes whatever is necessary, coordinating front and rear. But if the system's to become nice and friendly like that, it would also be sensible to put it on a bike that's friendly to people who don't care about bikes, so hub gears or something of that ilk, with chainguard etc. Add one-piece wheels to avoid the need to ever true them, all-weather braking (hub or disc or something yet to be invented), tubeless tyres for puncture resistance, and you have a hitech but practical omafiets.
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Och, I agree with that. I'm just thinking about higher end sports bikes, which seems to be where it's aimed atm.
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Higher end sports bikes are characterised by the need to appear high-end and sporty (but you know that!), which conventionally includes two chainrings and numerous sprockets. Then there are UCI regs, which probably say something daft and antiquated on the subject (I haven't checked, but... ). Once someone like Campag or Shimano starts marketing the MAMWASGS, then it'll happen, of course.
(Middle aged man with a sequential gear shift)
(Ooh, it could also be MAMWA slick gear shift!)
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Due electric-shifting bikes fall foul of the Audax regulation about human powered vehicles?
Electronic gear changing could be constured as powered assistance.
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Due electric-shifting bikes fall foul of the Audax regulation about human powered vehicles?
Electronic gear changing could be constured as powered assistance.
Is it the same situation as using battery powered lights? It's power assistance but it's not directly propelling the bike. Seeing where you're going helps as does being in the right gear but the power assistance is to these but all the propulsion comes from your legs.
9.3.1 The cycle is propelled solely by human effort.
A others have said it removes the need for STI - you can stick a gear change button next to anyone's brake lever. It will make drop bar hydraulic brake levers simpler to produce.
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I'm pretty sure the Tour de France is for human powered vehicles too!
[Challenge: can anyone come up with a pro-tour legal part that is not allowed on audaxes? I'm in danger of overlooking something bleedin' obvious here, no doubt ... ]
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Support car?
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Due electric-shifting bikes fall foul of the Audax regulation about human powered vehicles?
Electronic gear changing could be constured as powered assistance.
Easily solved with dynamo power.
Anyway, if it's good enough for the UCI...
(*wonders what the AUK line would be on regenerative braking or electric transmission, assuming the ride started with a flat battery*)
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Support car?
:thumbsup:
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Due electric-shifting bikes fall foul of the Audax regulation about human powered vehicles?
Electronic gear changing could be constured as powered assistance.
Easily solved with dynamo power.
Anyway, if it's good enough for the UCI...
(*wonders what the AUK line would be on regenerative braking or electric transmission, assuming the ride started with a flat battery*)
Do you mean regenerative braking with electric transmission? I'm trying to wonder about regenerative braking with muscle-powered transmission - as you wouldn't actually be receiving additional power, just returning what you'd put in before, it should be ok. Though by the same token you could argue that battery-powered lights and gears are cheating because they allow you to make savings in the pedalpower you'd otherwise need to power them. I can imagine AUK having a field day making origami underpants over that (before going to the pub ;D).
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Though by the same token you could argue that battery-powered lights and gears are cheating because they allow you to make savings in the pedalpower you'd otherwise need to power them. I can imagine AUK having a field day making origami underpants over that (before going to the pub ;D).
RUSA (the US version of Audax UK) used to (may still do) give time penalties to riders using battery powered lights.
(I say 'used to' because I can't find a reference to it anywhere on t'Interweb.)
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Not RUSA but a Jan Heine group, Cyclos Montagnards.
http://cyclosmontagnards.blogspot.co.uk/?m=1
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Not RUSA but a Jan Heine group, Cyclos Montagnards.
http://cyclosmontagnards.blogspot.co.uk/?m=1
Today I have learnt the US equivalent of "broad church" - it is "big tent". Apparently.
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[Challenge: can anyone come up with a pro-tour legal part that is not allowed on audaxes? I'm in danger of overlooking something bleedin' obvious here, no doubt ... ]
Depending on Audax and TDF stage, tri-bars.
(eg Banned in PBP, OK for TT in TDF)
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Whatever happened to Shimano's 1.5W dyno-hub ?
I thought that must be intended to keep electric shifter batteries topped up.
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If the front changing is so smooth with electronic shifting, then, back to the OP, why not a sequential shift for efficiency?
because ime you have to ease off slightly more. Not much more though, I'm not really sure it wouldn't work. It might well be fine.
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Not RUSA but a Jan Heine group, Cyclos Montagnards.
http://cyclosmontagnards.blogspot.co.uk/?m=1
Aha, yes. Ta.
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From an aesthetics point of view. It's way too early to buy into di2. The derailleurs look pig ugly, like the designers were too lazy to think of a radical new design so bolted on some plastic boxes to make the derailleurs look bulky.
When in the world of cable gears you have a beautiful work of art in the Dura ace 9000 series.
I think electronic will be the way to go, but ill wait about 5 years when they find a way to make it look pretty.
Lets be honest, that's all that matters right?
On this subject ... I would have thought that without the need for cable pulling wizardry the shifters could be slimmed down a bit, becoming more like old svelte brake levers. But they still look like big ugly brifters.
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at one time you could get extra shifters to put on the barends on mountain bikes - only lasted one season -- here you go XTR around 2000 (http://mombat.org/Shimano.htm)
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If the front changing is so smooth with electronic shifting, then, back to the OP, why not a sequential shift for efficiency?
because ime you have to ease off slightly more. Not much more though, I'm not really sure it wouldn't work. It might well be fine.
It has been hacked to do just that on an MTB
http://m.bikeradar.com/news/article/interbike-2010-fairwheel-bikes-di2-mountain-bike-27855/
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Whatever happened to Shimano's 1.5W dyno-hub ?
I thought that must be intended to keep electric shifter batteries topped up.
The DH-1N70 hub seems to have become defunct - a quick google shows only veloplus.ch, ebay links, reviews & Shimano manuals. It may have been superseded by a later model, but there's nothing visible on Rose.
It came about when the Germans took notice of the increased efficiency of LED lighting, and proposed a 1.5W LED lighting standard as being equivalent to the existing 3W/filament bulb lighting.