I would have a bigger organising team.
I think it's fair to say that LEL has left me, Sue and Keith utterly crushed. On reflection I'm not sure I actually enjoyed organising it. The amount of work involved has been brutal, the pace unrelenting.
If you want more events like LEL, AUK and its members have to change the way they do things. Having hundreds of events organised by one person results in hundreds of incredibly well-organised club runs. It also results in no spare time to support LEL beyond the event itself and the month leading up to it.
I cannot and will not give the time again that I have given to LEL for the last four years. So either someone else steps up and takes over, or more people join us toand preparation.
I've done what I can - I have nothing left to give. I think I've demonstrated the way forward so now it's up to you.
EDIT - I would point out that I've loved working with Sue, Keith, Roger, Tony and John, aka the core team. I will miss that immensely.
We delivered what seems to be regarded as an absolutely superb event
Although you want to keep the size, don't forget the demand this time. Now you have delivered who knows the demand next time.
what do we want LEL to be -what do we want AUK to be - how can these be achieved.
I think it's fair to say that LEL has left me, Sue and Keith utterly crushed. On reflection I'm not sure I actually enjoyed organising it. The amount of work involved has been brutal, the pace unrelenting.
If you want more events like LEL, AUK and its members have to change the way they do things.
jacdaw - I don't know what a commercial sponsor would bring to the table that would be useful, money maybe..
My only minor suggestion would be to employ professional cleaners, perhaps those who normally work at the school, to free volunteers
Guys -- you are looking the wrong way. These are admin details that we will be well aware of and will have ideas to solve etc.
THE KEY POINT IS 2017 CAN NOT ASK THE SAME TEAM TO JUST DO IT AGAIN- DANIAL and SUE/KEITH HAVE TO HAVE MORE SUPPORT - they are entitled to have part of their life to themselves - rather than LEL becoming all consuming
2009 was a pickle financially- and I knew that I could offer something on the money side - so I did - and have been involved for all 3 1/2 years. I have learnt loads - which I can either use again or make freely available to someone else.
We now KNOW what a 1000 rider event can be put on for in £ terms. More money available - we might have ideas on how to spend it -- so money side is not a problem
But the hours and effort that D and S/K put in , will not be repeated -- we need real actual extra people putting hours of effort in -- OK Danial and S/K have the knowledge so they could supervise / mentor / do some them selves - but whio is going to join the team
Read Danials top post
I'm really keen to ride in 2017, but I am torn between this and volunteering. I think the voluntary efforts before and after the event were key to the success.
I also think the entry cost should be increased by at least 50 pounds.
I'm really keen to ride in 2017, but I am torn between this and volunteering. I think the voluntary efforts before and after the event were key to the success.
I also think the entry cost should be increased by at least 50 pounds.
Why?
The cost should only be increased (IMHO) if there is better service/value to offer to riders by doing so. If there are legitimate arguments for adding services to the ride that increase the rider's enjoyment and/or farm out some jobs to those with greater skillsets to deliver a product/service that just isn't possible to with volunteer effort.
LEL is not out to make a huge profit - it has to turn a small profit to leave seed money for the next LEL.
I also think the entry cost should be increased by at least 50 pounds.
Guys -- you are looking the wrong way. These are admin details that we will be well aware of and will have ideas to solve etc.Roger if you only want posts that are firm offers of help in specific roles - which would be very welcome - this will be a very quiet thread!
THE KEY POINT IS 2017 CAN NOT ASK THE SAME TEAM TO JUST DO IT AGAIN- DANIAL and SUE/KEITH HAVE TO HAVE MORE SUPPORT - they are entitled to have part of their life to themselves - rather than LEL becoming all consuming
LEL2017 is four years away (although I do realise planning starts a lot sooner). I don't know where I'll be living in four years, but if possible would love to ride again. I'd potentially be willing to help leading up to the event, but I've no idea what the list of jobs would entail. Communicating with ForceGB about clothing ??? Helping with the route ??? etc.Route checking/drafting and clothing seem like good areas for delegation - well volunteered ;) :)
it will however take a few skilled managers to coordinate stuff/people, let's not lose sight of that.
I understand your think, Chuffy, but instead of creating less work you are suggesting the team do MORE???Um, not really. I'm suggesting that AUK look at having a small team of permanent, paid staff, rather than relying on unpaid volunteers. Obviously it wouldn't be viable to have them just work on LEL, hence my suggestion of a series of prestige events which would be the gold standard in terms of what was being offered (catering, sleeping arrangements etc). These would complement LEL and could share many resources, such as bed stock, electronic brevet systems etc.
Looking at other posts on here, we're basically sticking to the old model of relying on goodwill and volunteers. That, I feel, is the point that Danial and Fidgetbuzz are trying to make - it's not sustainable and we need something more permanent.
Looking at other posts on here, we're basically sticking to the old model of relying on goodwill and volunteers. That, I feel, is the point that Danial and Fidgetbuzz are trying to make - it's not sustainable and we need something more permanent.
I am not sure that is their point, I may be wrong though (it happened once before; 1997 from memory). I think the suggestion is that it is not sustainable with a very small team (really just Sue, Keith, Danial, Roger and John dealing with the route).
The look to have created a good framework to now expand the teams and parcel up tasks for others to take on (either as third party sub-contractors or a volunteer role).
A couple of posts have mentioned a paid for full-time team/PM - is there any sort of budget for this anywhere?
It made a massive difference to riders to get a bit of encouragement, and more of that sort of thing would be brilliant.There's no doubt this is a key part of PBP's appeal (unless you are riding 2 hours out of time and then everyone f**ks off to bed at 1am on a lonely final night ... /whinge)
Don't forget that with the required employer contributions on top of the headline salary you could probably double that, so £100+ on the entry fee.A couple of posts have mentioned a paid for full-time team/PM - is there any sort of budget for this anywhere?
Even one person paid for 2.5 years at £20k p.a. = £50k
That's £50+ on the entry fee for 1000 riders.
Or £2.50 on the annual AUK subs for 4 years for 5000 members.
I just don't think paying for a full time role is workable at all.
It made a massive difference to riders to get a bit of encouragement, and more of that sort of thing would be brilliant.There's no doubt this is a key part of PBP's appeal (unless you are riding 2 hours out of time and then everyone f**ks off to bed at 1am on a lonely final night ... /whinge)
I just wonder if we had the rider flow for this to gain any momentum. Folks could be standing in the rain for hours only to see 3-4 riders. I really don't know. :-\
A couple of posts have mentioned a paid for full-time team/PM - is there any sort of budget for this anywhere?
Even one person paid for 2.5 years at £20k p.a. = £50k
That's £50+ on the entry fee for 1000 riders.
Or £2.50 on the annual AUK subs for 4 years for 5000 members.
I just don't think paying for a full time role is workable at all.
AUK might be a volunteer run organisation but it's not poor, not by a long stretch. We have massive surpluses sitting in the bank doing, ISTM, fuck all.A couple of posts have mentioned a paid for full-time team/PM - is there any sort of budget for this anywhere?
Even one person paid for 2.5 years at £20k p.a. = £50k
That's £50+ on the entry fee for 1000 riders.
Or £2.50 on the annual AUK subs for 4 years for 5000 members.
I just don't think paying for a full time role is workable at all.
Yes, the money has to come from somewhere and I don't expect AUK to have a magic pot of it.;D It has, though...
AUK might be a volunteer run organisation but it's not poor, not by a long stretch. We have massive surpluses sitting in the bank doing, ISTM, fuck all.
This is EXACTLY the kind of thing that the surplus should be doing. Our subs already generate this level of excess.
Well, in that case...Yes, the money has to come from somewhere and I don't expect AUK to have a magic pot of it.;D It has, though...
[Purely FYI:]
We had a couple of ex-Olympics staff at Pock. They had no previous experience of bike events. Plus one lady who'd worked on Pro Races who had never heard of Audax.
An unpaid management team is not unique to Audax - I think many 'medium' sized running events (including the 100km+ stuff) do the same (local marathon to me does - I've met the Race Director).
There must be a 'critical mass' at which it becomes too big. If Danial says it was like a 2nd full-time job then clearly we have nearly reached that limit, unless we can reduce the workload for the core team. Personally I think we would lose a little part of LEL's soul if it was run by professionals. For me this is another reason not to grow things, at least not yet.
It seems (to me) that a lot of workload for Danial, Sue, Keith was just dealing with the riders - I would like to see that off-loaded from those really running the show as I would guess that 95% of queries can be answered by someone with a reasonable understanding of the system (75% can be answered with 'read the website and/or riders email of XXth of July').
Are you implying that only a volunteer with experience of cycling and cycling events can be productive as a volunteer on LEL?Certainly not! I was addressing the point about LEL's volunteer recruitment strategy - which clearly succeeded in getting people from outside Audax. The mixture of experience and skills was a big plus.
I was at Pocklington (with this volunteer) and their work ethic and overall effort could not be faltered.
From my project management experience you don’t need more work to bring LEL 2017 together you need better ways of working.not entirely true, yes catering, cleaning, regestration will be simmilar but each control will experience a very different pattern of work load. e.g
For example:
1. Barring for location each control is basically identical, list what works, how and why and replicate that to all controls with a central volunteer being responsible.
No, not at all. Here were the huge jobs:
<snip>
One thing our experience tells us is that 90+% of the offers of help never materialise as anything helpful.
yes.From my project management experience you don’t need more work to bring LEL 2017 together you need better ways of working.not entirely true, yes catering, cleaning, regestration will be simmilar but each control will experience a very different pattern of work load. e.g
For example:
1. Barring for location each control is basically identical, list what works, how and why and replicate that to all controls with a central volunteer being responsible.
Loughton Busy Friday, Saturday and Sunday Morning - relax on Monday and prepare for returning riders, Tuesday first few finish, Wednesday the quicker riders arrive and then Thursday and overnight to Friday the bulk of teh rider come in, some in need of lots of TLC.
One thing our experience tells us is that 90+% of the offers of help never materialise as anything helpful.Which is why, although a part of me would love to say "Yup, I'll run a kitchen for you somewhere in four year's time!", I won't. Because I _know_ that is a commitment I can't fulfil because of personal circumstances. But I'll happily offer now that, unless circumstances change in the intervening years to prevent it, I'll turn up and repeat more or less what I did this year, because that is attainable for me.
If you do offer help to the 2017 team, please make sure that it amounts to more than empty promises.
Though we have now left the LEL room, and are patiently waiting by the AUK exit door for the end of the season to arrive, we will be very interested to see how plans for the 2017 event pan out.I for one would like to say that t'was an honour and a privilege to lend a hand on your Loughton team for some of this one.
Keith and Sue
One thing our experience tells us is that 90+% of the offers of help never materialise as anything helpful.I think part of the issue with this is that people say "I can help with such and such" but what they really need is a specific task, with a specific timescale.
LEL and AUK are like two galaxies in space, both speeding away from each other at a rate of knots.I love a good astronomical analogy, but I may disagree with this one :)
Neither offers anything much to each other.Maybe not contractually or officially, but there is such a huge overlap in the people involved that I would say this is untrue, in a practical sense.
I love a good astronomical analogy, but I may disagree with this one :)So if I was to suggest, that if the only sustainable way of keeping the current LEL structure going forward was like a galaxy being sucked into black hole akin to commercial Sportives, you'd still disagree? :P
One thing that does need separating out is publicity/press liaison - not having a go at Danial in anyway, but that is in itself a big task and it would be great to engage the local communities better next time. People were genuinely interested when you explained it to them - and many were happy to sit out front of their house and cheer people on. People just didn't know it was coming through, even in control towns. Every pub/cafe on the route could be informed somehow - it was nice to see a board out front a couple of them and some of them must have done some good trade (taking a little pressure off controls as well).
LEL and AUK are like two galaxies in space, both speeding away from each other at a rate of knots.I love a good astronomical analogy, but I may disagree with this one :)
One thing our experience tells us is that 90+% of the offers of help never materialise as anything helpful.I think part of the issue with this is that people say "I can help with such and such" but what they really need is a specific task, with a specific timescale.
I offered to do something, and hadn't started it when I heard that someone else was doing it. If I had been told 'we need this done by 3rd Feb' I would have done it by 3rd Feb.
Next time a lot of stuff is already framed. You'll need people to slot into roles/tasks that already have a framework, a lot easier than making it up as you go along. It's clearer what works and what doesn't, what's worth putting effort into, and what's not.
For all the talk of a Strategic Plan, I don't notice much action on this front and AUK is stuck in its low-profile, keep-our-heads-down, 'self-sufficiency', change-things-once-per-year-or-not-at-all, rut. Most of what is being mooted for 'a better LEL' is the polar opposite of all that. To use a mere planetary metaphor.
Changing direction slightly here (or maybe not) - how does PBP do it? All by volunteers? All done by ACP or whatever the French outfit is? I'm not saying LEL should copy that - I'm just curious.....
Changing direction slightly here (or maybe not) - how does PBP do it? All by volunteers? All done by ACP or whatever the French outfit is? I'm not saying LEL should copy that - I'm just curious.....
One thing our experience tells us is that 90+% of the offers of help never materialise as anything helpful.Which is why, although a part of me would love to say "Yup, I'll run a kitchen for you somewhere in four year's time!", I won't. Because I _know_ that is a commitment I can't fulfil because of personal circumstances. But I'll happily offer now that, unless circumstances change in the intervening years to prevent it, I'll turn up and repeat more or less what I did this year, because that is attainable for me.
If you do offer help to the 2017 team, please make sure that it amounts to more than empty promises.
QuoteThough we have now left the LEL room, and are patiently waiting by the AUK exit door for the end of the season to arrive, we will be very interested to see how plans for the 2017 event pan out.I for one would like to say that t'was an honour and a privilege to lend a hand on your Loughton team for some of this one.
Keith and Sue
I think it is as well it's not just you, if you want my possibly controversial opinion then I'd go one further and say it's out of order for auk to even expect/let them do it even once.
Is it just me or is asking for those involved at the centre of this to do it all again in 2017 a step too far, perhaps overall responsibility for one LEL is enough to ask of any individual(s).
Also, you haven't paid enough for the event. Much of the work was due to not paying others to do stuff. Expect a significant price rise next time, because I ain't doing a ton more free work to save you money.
WRT Route checking I think that requests to ride the proposed route were made over a year ago but I'm not sure how many actually did so.I rode Hull to London in April 2012 and April 2013. Th routesheet for the first time was a shambles, particularly around Spalding and I wrote about it in Arrivee. The routesheet for the second time was a vast improvement.
WRT Route checking I think that requests to ride the proposed route were made over a year ago but I'm not sure how many actually did so.I rode Hull to London in April 2012 and April 2013. Th routesheet for the first time was a shambles, particularly around Spalding and I wrote about it in Arrivee. The routesheet for the second time was a vast improvement.
And if you made suggestions for improving the route your name went ino a hat and the one pulled out had free entry. Which was nice. No, I didn't get it.
LEL 2013 represented a sea-change over earlier versions. But if the format is held broadly constant for 2017 much of the work done for 2013 can be re-used. The identification of the controls, creation of the website, creation of the rider entry/tracking, even the route are broadly done, and just need tweeking.
Danial, and Keith and Sue, have done a fantastic job in setting up the event; much of the work should not need repeating.
We started way back in 2010 with NO inherited knowledge - and a general perception - that it MUST be possible to do 2013 better than 2009. Obvious changes needed were Route and Control physical sizes, if as we estimated numbers were going to increase to 750.
Now if you look forward there is a enormous inherited knowledge base - whether it is used by some / all of the 2013 team - or made readily available to a new team - in one sense matters not -- the info is there for use.
We started way back in 2010 with NO inherited knowledge - and a general perception - that it MUST be possible to do 2013 better than 2009. Obvious changes needed were Route and Control physical sizes, if as we estimated numbers were going to increase to 750.
Now if you look forward there is a enormous inherited knowledge base - whether it is used by some / all of the 2013 team - or made readily available to a new team - in one sense matters not -- the info is there for use.
With our knowledge comes MY perception that it is impossible to run a LEL with more than 1000 starters - the controls just could not physically handle 1500 riders, and I think that bigger ones in the right places are not available.
We MIGHT be able to handle 1500 riders in catering terms - if we changed to using professional caterers everywhere and using volunteers for all other duties - BUT we would still have a physical size of control problem - especially on the controls that are going to be heavily used for sleeping.
We are also likely to pass not only a cash surplus over to 2017 but also some other assets that will be completely expensed against this year - ie all those beds and maybe the blankets which if washed and stored could be available. That would be a £10000 boost to 2017 not available to 2013.
2017 also gains entry system , rider tracking all of which we have purchased in full - Ok they will want up dating, tweaking ,improving but the base is there- and again at no cost to 2017.
Just writing this makes me realise how lucky the 2017 team is going to be !!
Don't get me wrong, this is in no way a criticism, but could not the 2013 controls (if still available of course) physically accomodate a greater number of riders in 2017 if the start times were spread out more ? Of course that also needs more volunteers at each one, I'd certainly not be the one asking them to work 24 hour shifts instead of 20 hour or whatever it was some of them did.
In 2005, there were 2 start locations chasing each other round the course, a similar effect to a wide variation in start times.
Don't get me wrong, this is in no way a criticism, but could not the 2013 controls (if still available of course) physically accomodate a greater number of riders in 2017 if the start times were spread out more ? Of course that also needs more volunteers at each one, I'd certainly not be the one asking them to work 24 hour shifts instead of 20 hour or whatever it was some of them did.
Paris Brest Paris copes by having chaos, I think.
Seen some comments on the route discussions along the lines of "well yes that is a nicer route but it would be irresponsible to route 1000 riders down there". Which is a big turn off really.
Seen some comments on the route discussions along the lines of "well yes that is a nicer route but it would be irresponsible to route 1000 riders down there". Which is a big turn off really.
Really? I think that's an entirely responsible approach.
While it's not a mandatory route between controls, you can do whatever you like - if you don't like the suggested route, go a different way. We did. We even rode the Guided Busway from St Ives, which was one of those points where you probably shouldn't send 1000 riders.
But it's when it starts getting into the realm of changing the actual control locations themselves because you need a bigger building, that it becomes a no-no for me.
...I like the idea of tweaking the route/controls each time....if it can be done without compromising the route, fine.
What about starting at Thirsk with half the field going clockwise north and half clockwise going south? Might need another control between Loughton and St Ives but Thirsk has good road connections and a frequent train service. Halves the number of riders at controls at any time. I grant you Thirsk- Edinburgh/London - Thirsk doesn't quite trip of the tongue like LEL but that can be worked on surely?
It's an idea I didn't say it was a good one ::-)What about starting at Thirsk with half the field going clockwise north and half clockwise going south? Might need another control between Loughton and St Ives but Thirsk has good road connections and a frequent train service. Halves the number of riders at controls at any time. I grant you Thirsk- Edinburgh/London - Thirsk doesn't quite trip of the tongue like LEL but that can be worked on surely?
No it doesn't really... :-\. Maybe to spread the load even further, some riders could instead go to Watford instead of London, then Aberdeen instead of Edinburgh, then back to Thirsk? :P :) I'd buy the jersey even if I didn't ride it. ;D
Ah, someone who’s not ridden the 2013 route. ;D
Depends on choice of A19 or Howardian Hills.
For Thorne I guess the closest thing in the 2013 version would be Pocklington.
I'd expect that the majority of foreigners would opt for a London start.
Many in the UK would opt for an alternative start (i.e. Thorne) as that's probably easier for them to get to than London. I'd probably even go for a Thorne/Thirsk start given the choice.
I wouldn't have a problem saying I rode LEL but starting/finishing in Thorne/Thirsk/etc. The only problem with that start is the huge amount of flat in the final 600 (if you begin by going North).
The earlier events were known as Edinburgh-London. The LEL tag only came with the London start.
There are a lot of "EL" references hanging around, which perhaps have confused Dave.The earlier events were known as Edinburgh-London. The LEL tag only came with the London start.
Wrong. It's always been LEL.
I haven't given this the thought that the original poster requested, though I certainly hope to at some stage. However, I've got a few thoughts now, for what they're worth:-
I was a helper who wants to be a rider BECAUSE of what I've experienced of this year's event. I don't want it to be any BIGGER. I don't want it to be more widely publicised. I don't want to be clapped through village after village as if I was on some gigantic sportive. I love the idea that it happens while most of the population is fast asleep or at least ignorant of what's going on - that's a big part of the charm of audax for me. It's slightly crazy and doesn't need normalizing.
I DO WANT it to be as easy on the organizers as possible - and the way to do that would seem to be to tweak, rather than grow.
Peter
The entry price could be increased greatly. If it was doubled it would still be a bargain.
The earlier events were known as Edinburgh-London. The LEL tag only came with the London start.
Wrong. It's always been LEL.
I agree. Over £400 would make catching the train to a civilised Continental 1200km the cheaper option.The entry price could be increased greatly. If it was doubled it would still be a bargain.
£450 would have put it well out of my reach this year, unfortunately.
And I don't think I'd look on it as a bargain at that price. It's not a straight comparison, but if you look you can find organised tours - with hotels! Proper beds! 3 course dinners even if you're running late! - for not much more per night (eg 8 days/7 nights in Alsace for €1000, including luggage transfer and even bike hire).
That's not to say £450 wouldn't be a fairer reflection of the work put into it, nor still below what a commercial organiser might charge, but I think I'd start wanting guaranteed beds and be cross about the lack of hot food at some controls for the money.
3 course dinners even if you're running late!Even at 2/4am? Hmmm? ;)
The earlier events were known as Edinburgh-London. The LEL tag only came with the London start.
Wrong. It's always been LEL.
I am used to being wrong but I was following the explanation given by Simon Doughty back in 2005.
EDIT: "1989. The longest Brevet de Randonneur event, the 1300km Edinburgh-London, was organised by Bernard Mawson. This also became the first event to be validated by the RM, ACP being responsible for 200km-1000km events and the PBP."
From http://www.aukweb.net/handbook/histauk.htm
p.s. about this:Quote3 course dinners even if you're running late!Even at 2/4am? Hmmm? ;)
The earlier events were known as Edinburgh-London. The LEL tag only came with the London start.
Wrong. It's always been LEL.
I am used to being wrong but I was following the explanation given by Simon Doughty back in 2005.
EDIT: "1989. The longest Brevet de Randonneur event, the 1300km Edinburgh-London, was organised by Bernard Mawson. This also became the first event to be validated by the RM, ACP being responsible for 200km-1000km events and the PBP."
From http://www.aukweb.net/handbook/histauk.htm
The LEL tag only came with the London start.is wrong. EDIT: A quick glance at Arrivée April 1989 proves my memory hasn't let me down (in this matter at least).
If separate Edinburgh and London starts would cause a pile up of riders wanting to sleep somewhere round the half-way point would a morning start for one end and an evening start at the other end alleviate this?
Just wondering.
BTW the 1989 calendar entry says it would be a 1200. It wasn't until the event had taken place and riders questioned that the concensus emerged that the distance was about 1385.
I agree. Over £400 would make catching the train to a civilised Continental 1200km the cheaper option.The entry price could be increased greatly. If it was doubled it would still be a bargain.
£450 would have put it well out of my reach this year, unfortunately.
And I don't think I'd look on it as a bargain at that price. It's not a straight comparison, but if you look you can find organised tours - with hotels! Proper beds! 3 course dinners even if you're running late! - for not much more per night (eg 8 days/7 nights in Alsace for €1000, including luggage transfer and even bike hire).
That's not to say £450 wouldn't be a fairer reflection of the work put into it, nor still below what a commercial organiser might charge, but I think I'd start wanting guaranteed beds and be cross about the lack of hot food at some controls for the money.
(IMHO any significant increase will shift the demographic in an undesirable direction.)
If separate Edinburgh and London starts would cause a pile up of riders wanting to sleep somewhere round the half-way point would a morning start for one end and an evening start at the other end alleviate this?Yes, lf course, good point. But the bulge from the north will inevitably meet the bulge from the south at some point. It might not be the middle but it will be somewhere.
IF we were looking at a bigger event (please see the first reply on this thread!), I'd suggest considering a split route where the bulges might meet. We already have controls only used 1-way.If separate Edinburgh and London starts would cause a pile up of riders wanting to sleep somewhere round the half-way point would a morning start for one end and an evening start at the other end alleviate this?Yes, lf course, good point. But the bulge from the north will inevitably meet the bulge from the south at some point. It might not be the middle but it will be somewhere.
And given comments from Fidgetbuzz and Danial, I guess anyone who indulges in talk of more riders than this year is on a hiding to nothing. It seems to me the most likely, and IMHO the easiest, option taken by the orgs will be a complete rerun of this year's event in very many ways.
IF we were looking at a bigger event (please see the first reply on this thread!), I'd suggest considering a split route where the bulges might meet. We already have controls only used 1-way.My thinking too.
Evening start and spread it out more, then you can use bigger towns and roads early on with little traffic. Add some extra intermediate sleep stops to spread the load a bit. As PBP did last time. Also avoids interaction with London to Cambridge.
It seems to me the most likely, and IMHO the easiest, option taken by the orgs will be a complete rerun of this year's event in very many ways.
This is what i wanted the thread to contemplate - WHO is willing to do real hard work to make 2017 a success.Like I said earlier - did you only want people to post if they want DW's job?
Not the way it has developed, with tweaky suggestions to modify/improve the event
Started PBP 2007 at 9.40 pm and never really got over it.
This is what i wanted the thread to contemplate - WHO is willing to do real hard work to make 2017 a success.Like I said earlier - did you only want people to post if they want DW's job?
Not the way it has developed, with tweaky suggestions to modify/improve the event
Gonna be a quiet thread ...
Also avoids interaction with London to Cambridge.
It was an unfortunate clash - I am not sure what time the l-c ride started, I would guess the early start LEL riders saw nothing of it. I was off at 9:30 and, as is typical for a ride, we'd soon fallen into pretty fast groups (we had Lordy and cyclofabrica up front).
It certainly had its moments as we passed the riders going to Cambridge.
I would have preferred not to have had the clash, but that is life.
Hopefully not too many of them followed us and ended up in Edinburgh thinking that it was a bit tougher than they were expecting.
My only minor suggestion would be to employ professional cleaners, perhaps those who normally work at the school, to free volunteers
This happened at Brampton. I cleaned the toilets a couple of times and the showers once in the early hours of the morning. The professionals did it during the day
What it is like to put up with hour after hour of exhausted, impatient, incoherent stinking peopleI was at Loughton. It was great.
hour after hour of exhausted, impatient, incoherent stinking people
hour after hour of exhausted, impatient, incoherent stinking people
That's a little harsh. We weren't all in quite that bad a state you know.
Maybe we're giving the world a poor impression of Randonneurs on very long rides. At no time was I impatient, incoherent, and not particularly stinky given the two complete changes of clothes in my bag drops.
hour after hour of exhausted, impatient, incoherent stinking people
That's a little harsh. We weren't all in quite that bad a state you know.
Maybe we're giving the world a poor impression of Randonneurs on very long rides. At no time was I impatient, incoherent, and not particularly stinky given the two complete changes of clothes in my bag drops.
In my experience, all riders were remarkably patient and tolerant. And mostly coherent. It was a pleasure to help.
Not that I'm organising in 2017 you understand, but my blue-sky thinking is £299, with much more money spent on IT, cooks, cleaners and sag wagons.
My only minor suggestion would be to employ professional cleaners, perhaps those who normally work at the school, to free volunteers
This happened at Brampton. I cleaned the toilets a couple of times and the showers once in the early hours of the morning. The professionals did it during the day
Yes indeed - when I was on cleaning duty I mopped the showers out and changed a few bin bags, but everything else had been done by the school cleaners - so I went back to the kitchen.
I feel at this stage very torn between really wanting to ride it again in 2017 and wanting to be a helper to pay everyone back for what they did for me this time around.
One thing I was wondering having read some of the aftermath, is would there be a way of making sure that the slower/first time >600k/ full value riders get earlier start times? I was a pretty full value rider on the last day because I was injured, but because I had a 6.15am start I ran into none of the problems that later riders did with less food available, controls winding down/closing etc. etc. Full value riders are also more likely to have company on the road if they start earlier. They are also more likely to get a bed the first night which they probably have more need of than the racing snakes. Just a thought.
I feel at this stage very torn between really wanting to ride it again in 2017 and wanting to be a helper to pay everyone back for what they did for me this time around.
You could do what iddu did...
What e diddo was ride most of the route the week before, then ride more of it to get to his Helper's Post!
Anyhoo: I suspect faster riders starting first works best. You get a better spread.
On PBP the 84h riders [starting 8h later] tend to catch up at some point - in the past this was typically at Loudeac for sleep, resulting in chaos. (In 2011 they changed it around a bit, for the better I think.)
As GB says, many faster riders were kicked out of beds for you sloths. (This doesn't happen on PBP. O:-) ). We should certainly look at problems for the last riders arriving, but in reality I think these were minimal. Most controls had plenty of food. And slow/late riders would have had quieter controls at least some of the time northbound (and probably later).
If you were a real emergency case, there were more people to spot/help you than if you arrived in the bulge.
Pocklington was one of the better ones, in my experience, as was Brampton. Others less so. Market Rasen had no food when I arrived (well in time, remember) and very little when I got up to leave, not even milk for cereal/coffee (apart from some nasty powdered milk which was separating in the jug :sick:).
Having quieter controls was a bonus, true, but there was a definite air of arriving long after the party had ended.
Reading these stories, I'm awestruck not so much by the achievements of the riders (although those are inspiring), but by the volunteers. What it is like to put up with hour after hour of exhausted, impatient, incoherent stinking people is something I can only have nightmares about.
To all of you who coordinated and volunteered at controls, I offer my admiration and praise.
Close of Market Rasen was crap, food-wise. My apologies. By then I think we were all ground down by the chef, and just wanted him to leave.
Apparently riders were still turning up at Davenant on Tuesday this week - four days after the event finished!! Premises manager says some were surprised that there was nobody still around to welcome them.
We were still serving tea up to a couple of hours after closing time - sorry if you felt unwelcome when you arrived.
Given that some of us hadn't slept for 48 hours, it was very difficult to stay focussed. We had been open for a week and all anyone wanted to do was go home.
Reading these stories, I'm awestruck not so much by the achievements of the riders (although those are inspiring), but by the volunteers.
To all of you who coordinated and volunteered at controls, I offer my admiration and praise.
Close of Market Rasen was crap, food-wise. My apologies. By then I think we were all ground down by the chef, and just wanted him to leave.
He started packing up with 100 riders to go and was deaf to our protestations. But to be honest I don't think anyone was willing to engage with him.
Close of Market Rasen was crap, food-wise. My apologies. By then I think we were all ground down by the chef, and just wanted him to leave.
He started packing up with 100 riders to go and was deaf to our protestations. But to be honest I don't think anyone was willing to engage with him.
What e diddo was rideMi bold; (*) mostly as given, just using the B roads from S. Walden...fun ;)most of theall of A(*) route the week before, then ridemore of it2 by 440 DIY's to/from Barney, to get to his Helper's Post!
I did not volunteer in advance of LEL and therefore didn't need to receive communication about my duties etc. However, I am aware of volunteers who felt they had not been communicated with effectively prior to the event and were very unsure if they'd be helping, on which day(s) they'd be needed etc. I hope for LEL2017 the volunteers receive the same excellent level of communication as the riders did for LEL2013.
As for the party being over, that really hit me back at Loughton. I knew I was well out of time (though well before bag-drop returns closed), but I really felt excluded from the whole arrivee atmosphere.
Something like a Late Arrivals desk - or even someone primed to say something like 'Well done for finishing, such a shame you're out of time, how are you feeling, would you like a cup of tea?' - would have made me feel like I was still part of the event. As it was, all those things did get said and were welcome, but it was obvious that (probably rightly) everyone's attention was now on packing up the control.
(I have no idea how many others turned up even though they'd passed their own cut-off, so maybe I'm asking for special treatment just for me, because I'm special.)
My only minor suggestion would be to employ professional cleaners, perhaps those who normally work at the school, to free volunteers
This happened at Brampton. I cleaned the toilets a couple of times and the showers once in the early hours of the morning. The professionals did it during the day
Yes indeed - when I was on cleaning duty I mopped the showers out and changed a few bin bags, but everything else had been done by the school cleaners - so I went back to the kitchen.
Not quite the whole story. The cleaner (Jackie) did a sterling job when she could, but there was a lot of cleaning done in the male facilities where she could not access due to the high demand. Overall, she was a star and did enable volunteers to concentrate on other things. Sorting out showers/toilets in the wee hours after the onslaught of riders was when cleaners would have helped. It was all about timing and peak/troughs.
My favourite was one rider who'd crashed due to tiredness at some point in the morning on their way from St Ives. He'd ended up sleeping by the road side as he knew he couldn't go on, but carried on to the finish once he'd woken up (via Gt Easton too). I congratulated him and signed his card so that he had something to show he'd completed the entire ride (despite being out of time), but he was aware that it would never be validated (especially as he kept the card). He was insistent that he'd back in 2017.
I'm tempted to tell you that there was a fete, and that if you'd pedalled a bit harder it would still have been happening when you arrived.
We thought the arrivee was pretty good, actually. There was plenty of space to relax and cheer the riders back.
It could also give the ride a bit of a grander finish I'd hope, with finished riders clapping the finishers (which we did anyway, but the more the merrier).If we want the last riders to feel welcome - and let's say (overegging it) that there are 100 sorry souls arriving; then the 800 riders already finished vastly outnumber any volunteers manning the Arrivée. Draw your own conclusion ...
(I'm intrigued by the idea of Greenbank as the "Face of Loughton". Was their a contest? With talent and swimsuit rounds?)
The treatment of "full value" riders and modestly out of time riders was something that concerned me at BC. Our control was fully operational (with a choice of hot food) until about an hour after the control closure time. But our contract with the school required us to be out of the place, fully cleared up and cleaned, by 3 1/2 hours after control closure time. That was a tough condition, and did require us to do some preparatory work before we were officially closed, which may have appeared less welcoming to the late riders. I'm sorry about that.
Next time I shall try to negotiate more time at the end.
I'm tempted to tell you that there was a fete, and that if you'd pedalled a bit harder it would still have been happening when you arrived.
We thought the arrivee was pretty good, actually. There was plenty of space to relax and cheer the riders back.
We considered beer, but we couldn't afford to give it away, and you need a license to sell it.
We considered beer, but we couldn't afford to give it away, and you need a license to sell it.
Sell raffle tickets. Each one wins a beer.
We considered beer, but we couldn't afford to give it away, and you need a license to sell it.
Sell raffle tickets. Each one wins a beer.
Now that is a level of low cunning that I am impressed by
See https://www.gov.uk/temporary-events-notice - £21 for am alcohol licence and live music for upto 7 days as long as you have under 500 people in a control at a time. The sentence about food between 11pm & 5am doesn't apply as you're not providing it to "the public."
Something like a Late Arrivals desk ...
the odd volunteer (and controller).Which one? Weren't we all odd?
One thing I was wondering having read some of the aftermath, is would there be a way of making sure that the slower/first time >600k/ full value riders get earlier start times?Didn't we pick our own start time?
We were discussing how to maintain the LEL camaraderie.
... we could make a significant contribution to PBP in terms of understanding the process, and making English-speakers less anxious about being understood. Potential lead organisers would benefit from seeing similar events of a much larger scale in action.
2013 was a success - we REALLY have something to build on now.
Come on step up - and maybe the 2013 team will lend a hand - change their minds etc etc - who knows.
One thing I was wondering having read some of the aftermath, is would there be a way of making sure that the slower/first time >600k/ full value riders get earlier start times?Didn't we pick our own start time?
...Yeah, it's tricky. PBP is worse, with 3 very different start times (and time limits) - it takes two rides to get a feel for the event, let alone working out whether starting on a whole different day would suit you better!
This, of course, isn't something that anyone, let alone the organising team, can be expected to take into account.
Didn't we pick our own start time?
...Yeah, it's tricky. PBP is worse, with 3 very different start times (and time limits) - it takes two rides to get a feel for the event, let alone working out whether starting on a whole different day would suit you better!
This, of course, isn't something that anyone, let alone the organising team, can be expected to take into account.
[OT: in 2009 we had the rather odd situation of female riders getting priority on the morning start times. I wonder what Feline thinks of that ... ]
One thing I was wondering having read some of the aftermath, is would there be a way of making sure that the slower/first time >600k/ full value riders get earlier start times?Didn't we pick our own start time?
...Yeah, it's tricky. PBP is worse, with 3 very different start times (and time limits) - it takes two rides to get a feel for the event, let alone working out whether starting on a whole different day would suit you better!
This, of course, isn't something that anyone, let alone the organising team, can be expected to take into account.
[OT: in 2009 we had the rather odd situation of female riders getting priority on the morning start times. I wonder what Feline thinks of that ... ]
It was suggested by one female rider that there were a lot of men with no previous long distance experience compared to the women.that seems likely to me - sheer bravado by the male of the species - without due thought -
The range in start times was about 4 hours. The range in finish times was about 50 hours. Would it really make much of a difference to full-value riders whether they started at 6am or 10am? I think starting nearer the back if being overtaken by hundreds of riders gets you down seems like a reasonable strategy to me.
Janet Thacker and Sue Barnes bailed at Brampton south, and are keen to have another crack. Jeffmcg OTP made it to Pocklington on the way back. All could have done it with a better run of luck, but none seem too downcast.
The range in start times was about 4 hours. The range in finish times was about 50 hours. Would it really make much of a difference to full-value riders whether they started at 6am or 10am? I think starting nearer the back if being overtaken by hundreds of riders gets you down seems like a reasonable strategy to me.
The trouble you have starting at the back, as we did at PBP 2011:
- everyone is ahead of you. If you are the slowest rider, starting at the back, you will never get a faster group coming past that you can get a tow from. The groups we found in 2011 were useless.
Janet Thacker and Sue Barnes bailed at Brampton south, and are keen to have another crack. Jeffmcg OTP made it to Pocklington on the way back. All could have done it with a better run of luck, but none seem too downcast.
Special mention too to Becky Burns, who bailed near Great Easton. That must have stung. She arrived at Market a little out of time and suffering what we'll call an emotional low. A quick shower and an emergency roast dinner (Vincent wasn't all bad) and she seemed determined to claw it back. A good scrappy ride, that didn't quite work out in the end.
I agree with boab here. ED: the figures support this (the median start time is 0800 for DNFs and the others.)The range in start times was about 4 hours. The range in finish times was about 50 hours. Would it really make much of a difference to full-value riders whether they started at 6am or 10am? I think starting nearer the back if being overtaken by hundreds of riders gets you down seems like a reasonable strategy to me.
The trouble you have starting at the back, as we did at PBP 2011:
- everyone is ahead of you. If you are the slowest rider, starting at the back, you will never get a faster group coming past that you can get a tow from. The groups we found in 2011 were useless.
Those of us who started at 9:30pm+ managed fine (didn't we Danial?). I'd say the 'problem' is being a slower rider, not what time you start.
Lots of lessons learnt - agree with earlier posts about starting noobs like me earlier, I hadn't really taken the morale side of things into account - I'm used to riding alone but knowing you're the VERY last rider having had 5 hours sleep in a week makes you a bit wobbly. I'm pretty sure I'd have completed the final 70k if I'd had company to gee me along/ share the headwind on the effing fens ;)
Firstly thanks to Woobly and the Finnish guy I sheltered with under trees on way to MH for getting me on this site, top blokes. Although didn't catch the yacf name of the Finnish guy, he was a small wheeled tourist! I suspect you all know him.
Firstly thanks to Woobly and the Finnish guy I sheltered with under trees on way to MH for getting me on this site, top blokes. Although didn't catch the yacf name of the Finnish guy, he was a small wheeled tourist! I suspect you all know him.
lotum
I find it amazing how few Scots there were, compared to the number of, say, Indians? Taiwanese?I can sort of see the problem (as explained by Collonach). There are quite a few Audaxes that run close to me, and I really hate travelling to a start point (say) 100km away, only to ride back to my door, turn-round etc ...
It's a 1400km internationally recognised event. London is closer to your doorstep than Berlin.
hmm ... so you're suggesting something like the hop-on-hop-off tourist buses? LEL could run all summer, you could do whichever bits you like, or as much as you like. Get a medal once all your boxes are stamped, a bigger medal if you get them all in 116hours.
I like it.
Maybe thinking outside the box the solution is to alternate between LEL and ELE every 4 years?!
Maybe thinking outside the box the solution is to alternate between LEL and ELE every 4 years?!
Why not a London-Edinburgh-London where the start time is the same for all but you can start from any control and you do the complete loop in the time limit. That way the controls would only need to be open for one extra day (-ish). Or what about extending it to London-Cardiff-Edinburgh-London, with options for London-Cardiff, Cardiff-Edinburgh, etc
Certainly worth adding to the "blue sky" list. As a rider I'd find it a refreshing change. Lots of people don't like repeating an event, so this would increase sales.Maybe thinking outside the box the solution is to alternate between LEL and ELE every 4 years?!
Hey, that's actually a pretty good idea!
Yep. Feline gets my vote.
Maybe thinking outside the box the solution is to alternate between LEL and ELE every 4 years?!
Anything to stop the scots whinging ...
Edinburgh would be difficult, because the average speed on the first hilly section would be too low
Those with a GPS record of the ride might like to predict how much time they would have in hand for sleep if Edinburgh to Thirsk or Pocklington was their start leg.
We clocked a J group rider at the Humber bridge going through at exactly 12 hours. So he had almost as much time as that as a cushion at that point. He finished in 100 hours 44 minutes, so he picked up another 4 hours somewhere, during the next 88 hours and 44 minutes. So cushion time was accumulated at the rate of one hour per hour for the first 12, and one hour per twenty two hours for the remainder. I'd like to know if that was typical.
The letter prefix worked very well, as it defined the rider as part of a cohort at a glance.
We (shit climbers) built time between Edinburgh-Barney, includingThose with a GPS record of the ride might like to predict how much time they would have in hand for sleep if Edinburgh to Thirsk or Pocklington was their start leg.
At a rough guess - not much!
I had around 4 or 5 hours in hand when I left Edinburgh, and about the same when I left Pock. In between I had around 3 or 4 hours sleep at Brampton, and a 30min cat nap at BC. So having neither eaten into, or built up my buffer zone, over that stretch I must have been around the 13Km/h speed average overall (or whatever the exact figure was).
So if we started at Edinburgh, riding at my speed I'd get about 4 hours at Pock, and be out of buffer zone. On the way up, I had 8 or 9 hours of buffer when I slept at Pock.
There were comments that St Ives to Gt Easton was an unreasonably lumpy finish -- just imagine the kerfuffle finishing Esk , TraqI think that it was the unexpectedness that had people complaining. "Scotland has Hills" is not a surprise.
We (shit climbers) built time between Edinburgh-Barney, includingThose with a GPS record of the ride might like to predict how much time they would have in hand for sleep if Edinburgh to Thirsk or Pocklington was their start leg.
At a rough guess - not much!
I had around 4 or 5 hours in hand when I left Edinburgh, and about the same when I left Pock. In between I had around 3 or 4 hours sleep at Brampton, and a 30min cat nap at BC. So having neither eaten into, or built up my buffer zone, over that stretch I must have been around the 13Km/h speed average overall (or whatever the exact figure was).
So if we started at Edinburgh, riding at my speed I'd get about 4 hours at Pock, and be out of buffer zone. On the way up, I had 8 or 9 hours of buffer when I slept at Pock.wastingenjoying time with my dad at Eskdalemuir, ice creams at Alston & cowering, shivering, in the pub at Langdon Beck. With 700k less in our legs it'd be easier.
It's not that hilly.There were comments that St Ives to Gt Easton was an unreasonably lumpy finish -- just imagine the kerfuffle finishing Esk , TraqI think that it was the unexpectedness that had people complaining. "Scotland has Hills" is not a surprise.
With 700k less in our legs it'd be easier.
It's not that hilly.
I promised my better half LEL would be a one-off, but I didn't make any promises about not doing an ELE!Genius ;D
I'll let your put up or shut up comments go over my head. It is *very* bad form to challenge anyone who gives feedback to organise the event themselves.
Please dont post to this thread without a lot of hard thought- sit back and think carefully - what do we want LEL to be -what do we want AUK to be - how can these be achieved.Nearly all the posts on this thread have been exactly this. "what do we want LEL to be"
There were comments that St Ives to Gt Easton was an unreasonably lumpy finish -- just imagine the kerfuffle finishing Esk , Traq
There were comments that St Ives to Gt Easton was an unreasonably lumpy finish -- just imagine the kerfuffle finishing Esk , Traq
But not the Market Rasin - Kirton route?
That was a real killer with long flat boring road fighting against a headwind with 1,000km in your legs with only yourself for company (well, me).
I loved the St Ives - Loughton route, brilliantly fun.
I'm loath to comment on this, not having been involved.
...
Why not a London-Edinburgh-London where the start time is the same for all but you can start from any control and you do the complete loop in the time limit. That way the controls would only need to be open for one extra day (-ish). Or what about extending it to London-Cardiff-Edinburgh-London, with options for London-Cardiff, Cardiff-Edinburgh, etc
You are way off beam - every control would have to be open for all 116 hours - and exactly where would we get the volunteers to do that from??
One of the reasons I've been left feeling utterly deflated by this running of LEL is the failure of more than one person to deliver something that was delegated to them. In some respects a delegated but undelivered piece of work is more hassle than something never volunteered for. First you have the stress of having to persuade/chivvy/motivate/ said volunteer to do the work, then the stress of taking the job off them (which always makes you look like a shit) and finally the stress of having to do the job yourself anyway.
All of my LEL work is on dropbox, neatly filed. A few clicks and someone else can have the lot. It's already available to much of the team.
I recognise that situation. If it's any consolation, in my experience this kind of thing goes on even when people are being paid. It always happens at the wrong time, in the furthest away place, when no-one else is available to sort it out other than.....you guessed it.
I recognise that situation. If it's any consolation, in my experience this kind of thing goes on even when people are being paid. It always happens at the wrong time, in the furthest away place, when no-one else is available to sort it out other than.....you guessed it.
That's the way it is. When someone volunteers, you are at their mercy, they can and eventually will, walk away. That's not to criticise the volunteering ethos - but this is just part of the package.
And I agree with the above - if you pay people a minimum wage say, that really isn't going to change anything, if something better turns up they will walk away just the same.
All that said - a 25% no-show - that's quite shocking. But you just have to build that statistic into the plans, next time.
Riders need (and get) to know well in advance when and where and for how long they are required so that they can make appropriate domestic arrangements and carry out proper preparation. Volunteers (at all levels of the event) need exactly the same details.
/snipped ..... I'm a bit surprised by the 25% no shows, but as a dentist we always phone patients the day before their appointment to make sure they haven't forgotten....This is a nightmare, being rung up by a dentist reminding me of an appointment.
TBF the controllers had problems with volunteers not delivering too. About 25% of volunteers failed to show up, without giving us any warning. You can allow for it if you know it's going to happen, but this rate of no-show without warning meant a lot of people had to work much longer than planned.
It's not really a question of when anyone was required either. We'd have had all the time you had to offer us.
What was interesting this year was the number of European volunteers we had. They typically stayed for the duration, and were more than happy to move around controls. It made me realise that LEL's actually quite a nice little working holiday if you want to see Britain. What I've realised is that it could often be worth paying budget air fare for these sorts of volunteers, especially if you can then give them lifts between controls in cars and vans already carrying stuff, and put them up in simple accommodation. Everyone seems very happy with the arrangement.
Must admit i didn't pay much attention to the rota. We were there to work and as I was away from home i worked all the hours I was awake and slept as little as I could. This suited me fine cos I'm a cyclist and had a lot invested in helping the 'intrepid' riders and I loved every single minute of it
Do we gain by being a "home spun" support system - and is it one to try to build on. Thinking about it -- each of our controls have a BOSS - who will be totally committed to his/her control - does PBP work the same way - or is it more of a control cooperative.
Do we gain by being a "home spun" support system - and is it one to try to build on. Thinking about it -- each of our controls have a BOSS - who will be totally committed to his/her control - does PBP work the same way - or is it more of a control cooperative.
In PBP 2003 I was knocked off by a scooter. I was at the back of the field supporting Heather, but I'd stopped to film the riders climbing the hill out of Fougeres. The owner of the house next to where the accident happened took me in initially. The chief controller at the, now closed, Fougeres came out, and sorted out the paperwork which kept the Police out of the equation. A passing doctor declared me fit, and I told the organisers that I wanted to finish so as not to disappoint Heather.
I knew Heather would be concerned at my absence, so I recorded a video explaining the situation on a camera, and a volunteer took that up the road, found Heather, and played her the message.
Meanwhile I'd cadged a ciggie off the controller, Cecile Besnard, who was now organising a pair of new wheels, mine having been totalled in the crash. I paid for those, they were fitted, and off I went, with a note in my Brevet card allowing me three hours.
I went off course at one point, so I came into Mortagne late. There I met the lady who had carried the message to Heather. The organisation had been observing me, and could see I would finish, so my luggage was taken from me, to help me on my way. The next control was informed of my arrival, and I had my pick of the surplus food. I arrived two hours over time, and was credited with 90 hours. The check-in system had been dismantled, and my Brevet Card was signed by the lady who had carried my luggage.
I interviewed Cecile again in 2007. She said they generally started the planning three years from the event.
The attention given to the great mass of the riders cannot be compared to the attention that you get if you are the back and in trouble. The French love a trier, think of the Lantern Rouge, and will put themselves out to help once they have time.
The time I broke my fork steerer in 1999, and my bottom bracket axle on LEL 2005 also stand out.
I've got video of Adrian calling your mother a star, of your mother handling sausages in an interesting way, and I presume your sister chiding her for doing the same. She seemed to having a great time. If we could clone Veloman, the LEL would run like clockwork, well it would for anyone with full Campag groupsets!
It's not really a question of when anyone was required either. We'd have had all the time you had to offer us.
What was interesting this year was the number of European volunteers we had. They typically stayed for the duration, and were more than happy to move around controls. It made me realise that LEL's actually quite a nice little working holiday if you want to see Britain. What I've realised is that it could often be worth paying budget air fare for these sorts of volunteers, especially if you can then give them lifts between controls in cars and vans already carrying stuff, and put them up in simple accommodation. Everyone seems very happy with the arrangement.
That actually sounds like a brilliant option. I guess a number of the European volunteers had partners or friends riding too, and so would be there for the duration anyway. Volunteering was a way to both be a part of the event, and see their loved ones at some point on the way around.
Do we gain by being a "home spun" support system - and is it one to try to build on. Thinking about it -- each of our controls have a BOSS - who will be totally committed to his/her control - does PBP work the same way - or is it more of a control cooperative.
In PBP 2003 I was knocked off by a scooter. I was at the back of the field supporting Heather, but I'd stopped to film the riders climbing the hill out of Fougeres. The owner of the house next to where the accident happened took me in initially. The chief controller at the, now closed, Fougeres came out, and sorted out the paperwork which kept the Police out of the equation. A passing doctor declared me fit, and I told the organisers that I wanted to finish so as not to disappoint Heather.
I knew Heather would be concerned at my absence, so I recorded a video explaining the situation on a camera, and a volunteer took that up the road, found Heather, and played her the message.
Meanwhile I'd cadged a ciggie off the controller, Cecile Besnard, who was now organising a pair of new wheels, mine having been totalled in the crash. I paid for those, they were fitted, and off I went, with a note in my Brevet card allowing me three hours.
I went off course at one point, so I came into Mortagne late. There I met the lady who had carried the message to Heather. The organisation had been observing me, and could see I would finish, so my luggage was taken from me, to help me on my way. The next control was informed of my arrival, and I had my pick of the surplus food. I arrived two hours over time, and was credited with 90 hours. The check-in system had been dismantled, and my Brevet Card was signed by the lady who had carried my luggage.
I interviewed Cecile again in 2007. She said they generally started the planning three years from the event.
The attention given to the great mass of the riders cannot be compared to the attention that you get if you are the back and in trouble. The French love a trier, think of the Lantern Rouge, and will put themselves out to help once they have time.
The time I broke my fork steerer in 1999, and my bottom bracket axle on LEL 2005 also stand out.
Wonderful account - enjoyed reading it.
The scooter makes a brief appearance in this short edit of the 2003 film, at 4.40. I made sure he came down with me, it probably broke my fall.
https://vimeo.com/9211423
It would certainly be something to consider for 2017 (I like the village fete idea - involve the local WI or whatever to bake lots of cakes, and a beer tent for Hummers). The tug o'war would be optional if you weren't feeling too strong after your bike ride.
As those of us who finished earlyish on Thursday had to wait for bag drops, it would have been nice to have a bit more of a focussed area to relax and chat with people. The heat did mean that I spent large parts of the day under the trees in the bike park.
It could also give the ride a bit of a grander finish I'd hope, with finished riders clapping the finishers (which we did anyway, but the more the merrier).
Will look out for you in Paris. I've volunteered for catering again and I will be happy to pass on what I learnt from last time (about preparation and organisation) and what I think I got right - around menus and getting riders fed.
Although after Teethgrinders exploits this year I guess everyone will only want sausages....
Does anybody know what date LEL2017 will take place?
Will look out for you in Paris. I've volunteered for catering again and I will be happy to pass on what I learnt from last time (about preparation and organisation) and what I think I got right - around menus and getting riders fed.
Although after Teethgrinders exploits this year I guess everyone will only want sausages....
Yes please! !
Have been round the kitchens at the proposed St Ives control. Unlikely to be sausages, but there could be a curry on the way back!!
Right now I'm having to eat every 20km on a long ride. If this continues LEL will be a ride of 70 meals for me. I'll be delighted if one is curry :thumbsup:You're going to need some bigger jerseys too ;)
(I'm going to need more jersey pockets.)
Right now I'm having to eat every 20km on a long ride. If this continues LEL will be a ride of 70 meals for me. I'll be delighted if one is curry :thumbsup:
(I'm going to need more jersey pockets.)
Right now I'm having to eat every 20km on a long ride. If this continues LEL will be a ride of 70 meals for me. I'll be delighted if one is curry :thumbsup:
Right now I'm having to eat every 20km on a long ride. If this continues LEL will be a ride of 70 meals for me. I'll be delighted if one is curry :thumbsup:
In my (very limited) experience, the need for frequent eating tend to decrease with long distance training. When I came back to cycling in 2010, after about 10 years of doing no exercise, I had to eat a whole energy bar every 20km. Now, I can easily ride 80km without eating anything. (but that's probably my limit, I'm not sure I can improve that distance anymore)
..... mudguards for LEL?
........ wondering if I should ditch (or at least saw off) mine in the name of efficiency.
Do people bother with mudguards for LEL?
If we have weather anything like the 2009 (?) offering I suspect you'd lament their lack. Severalhoursdays of road skog to the face and backside would be grim.
Do people bother with mudguards for LEL?
I've been on a few winter audaxes where people have been using short 'guards at most and wondering if I should ditch (or at least saw off) mine in the name of efficiency.
Does kind of micro optimisation that removing mudguards offers to aerodynamic efficiency have any benefit on LEL? Most riders will be averaging 25kph when moving
Does kind of micro optimisation that removing mudguards offers to aerodynamic efficiency have any benefit on LEL? Most riders will be averaging 25kph when moving
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/05/02/aerodynamics-of-real-world-bicycles/ suggests that there is no aero cost to mudguards.
However micro-optimisations are probably more worthwhile on LEL than most rides since there is so much distance to multiply up each small % gain.
A wet gritty arse is more likely to have impact on your LEL ride than minor aero tweaks.
A wet gritty arse is more likely to have impact on your LEL ride than minor aero tweaks.
It was not that easy to convince them to fit mudguards for LEL2013. None of them had them to start with.
I think if you ride with no guards or mudflaps if the conditions are bad you should expect to be on your own for large parts of the ride or at least not be offended if you are asked to sit at the back of the group which I have seen happen, you can turn your flashing red light on as well then ;D
If you have a bike that lacks eyelets
QuoteIf you have a bike that lacks eyelets
Then use P clips to fit proper mudguards
We will put a lot of effort into making sure that this qualification regulation is not abused.Delighted to hear it.
A wet gritty arse is more likely to have impact on your LEL ride than minor aero tweaks.
Can someone confirm the dates. Its work holiday booking time. I have looked on the LEL website but they are not obvious. (if they are please point me to them)
thx
Can someone confirm the dates. Its work holiday booking time. I have looked on the LEL website but they are not obvious. (if they are please point me to them)
thx
You have to book a year in advance or you're just nabbing the dates before colleagues?
Admittedly it's not obvious on the site, but Registration is 29th July, Starts are on the 30th July, so finishes will be on the 3rd August.
https://londonedinburghlondon.com/faq/
I noticed that at some of the controls you have to remove your shoes, will this be the same for 2017? And is this before or after the point where you get your brevet stamp?It depends what colour your valve caps are.
I noticed that at some of the controls you have to remove your shoes, will this be the same for 2017? And is this before or after the point where you get your brevet stamp?It depends what colour your valve caps are.
Having just watched the rather excellent film on LEL 2013 I have some questions:-
I noticed that at some of the controls you have to remove your shoes, will this be the same for 2017? And is this before or after the point where you get your brevet stamp?
I'd say if it is a big problem for you, you have a long time between now and the start to perfect handstand walking.
Might be a problem if your brevet card falls out of your pockets half way in though?
Tricky one this.
One thing that does need separating out is publicity/press liaison - not having a go at Danial in anyway, but that is in itself a big task and it would be great to engage the local communities better next time. People were genuinely interested when you explained it to them - and many were happy to sit out front of their house and cheer people on. People just didn't know it was coming through, even in control towns. Every pub/cafe on the route could be informed somehow - it was nice to see a board out front a couple of them and some of them must have done some good trade (taking a little pressure off controls as well).
It made a massive difference to riders to get a bit of encouragement, and more of that sort of thing would be brilliant.
Having just watched the rather excellent film on LEL 2013 I have some questions:-
I noticed that at some of the controls you have to remove your shoes, will this be the same for 2017? And is this before or after the point where you get your brevet stamp?
I would say it is likely to be the same again this time, it is mainly because of the wooden floors that a lot of the schools have, & that they can get easily damaged.
Why would you want to bounce any control when all the fine food is included in your entry fee.
Last time the food was excellent :thumbsup:
Because the first 200 or so k is next to flat and I don't fancy sitting on my arse wasting time eatingThere's one control before you reach 200k and if you think spending 30 seconds taking off your shoes will make that much difference to your event then I suggest you may not enjoy LEL.
I'm focussing work elsewhere, in particular using my time and money for publicity to try and drum up some more volunteers to help make the controls run more smoothly.Well hurrah for that. The PBP crowds were nice-to-have and undoubtedly compensated for the dull route (at least the small bit I rode). But what's important is to know what's important - smooth-running controls.
Letters? Who do you think I am? David Hudson?Nearly but not quite..........
Many people love the crowds cheering you along PBP and I think it's something quite special. However on reflection I don't like it. Something like LEL is indeed a huge achievement, but I'm uncomfortable with getting praise for pursuing something I enjoy doing. It feels selfish.
Many people love the crowds cheering you along PBP and I think it's something quite special. However on reflection I don't like it. Something like LEL is indeed a huge achievement, but I'm uncomfortable with getting praise for pursuing something I enjoy doing. It feels selfish.
Really? In that case, feel free to praise me for doing the washing up and commuting to work because neither activity is something I enjoy doing. Praising somebody for doing something admirable, regardless of whether they are enjoying it at the time, seems reasonable to me.
Because the first 200 or so k is next to flat and I don't fancy sitting on my arse wasting time eatingThere's one control before you reach 200k and if you think spending 30 seconds taking off your shoes will make that much difference to your event then I suggest you may not enjoy LEL.
And thinking about, please tell me that the toilets are before you take your shoes off. Please tell me that I don't have to stand at a urinal with piss on the floor in my socks. Because that really will suck.
cheap polyamide slippers . . . I might yet put a pair in the rider bags at the startHang on Danial.....
However riders are free to carry a pair of flip flops with them if it bothers them sufficiently.
riders are free to carry a pair of flip flops with them if it bothers them sufficiently.Having read horror stories from PBP and from the 2009 edition, this is what I did for LEL 2013.
You miss my point, I don't mind taking off my shoes. But if things can be done an easier way that allows people who wish to bounce controls to bounce them without taking off their shoes then this should be the case. The time taken to take off and then out back on footwear will probably take longer then getting the stamp.
Further more, if it's raining, and you've been riding down lanes in said rain then more than likely you'll have overshoes covered in shite. I can imagine that this could potentially get quite tedious after taking off your shoes for the nth time.
And thinking about, please tell me that the toilets are before you take your shoes off. Please tell me that I don't have to stand at a urinal with piss on the floor in my socks. Because that really will suck.
* toilets (the mental image of the French style squat toilet at one of the secret controls will stay with me for ever) - good luck squatting in cleated shoes on slippery porcelain
You miss my point, I don't mind taking off my shoes. But if things can be done an easier way that allows people who wish to bounce controls to bounce them without taking off their shoes then this should be the case. The time taken to take off and then out back on footwear will probably take longer then getting the stamp.
Further more, if it's raining, and you've been riding down lanes in said rain then more than likely you'll have overshoes covered in shite. I can imagine that this could potentially get quite tedious after taking off your shoes for the nth time.
And thinking about, please tell me that the toilets are before you take your shoes off. Please tell me that I don't have to stand at a urinal with piss on the floor in my socks. Because that really will suck.
PBP had similar, if not worse, scenarios in all of these departments (no pun intended):-
* long walks from where you left your bike to the start of the control
* long walks inside the controls to get to the Brevet card desk and out again, long walks to the separate food halls at some controls too
* sometimes shoe removal was required (I think, maybe)
* toilets (the mental image of the French style squat toilet at one of the secret controls will stay with me for ever) - good luck squatting in cleated shoes on slippery porcelain
More often than not it's a restriction of the control (wooden floored halls require shoes removed, toilets are not by the entrance, etc) and in many places there isn't a great choice of controls.
Oh, and despite all of the above, find zigzag's post where he lists how much time he stopped at each control on PBP. Utterly bonkers.
Pissing in a field was so much easier. Actually sleeping in a field probably would have been, too - ewwwww..!
I'm uncomfortable with getting praise for pursuing something I enjoy doing.
But can you get the required stamp without having to take of your shoes if you want to bounce the control?
Oh, and despite all of the above, find zigzag's post where he lists how much time he stopped at each control on PBP. Utterly bonkers.
45h12m moving
4h25m stopped
no sleep
stopped times - minutes:
villaines 220km - 4
fougeres 310km - 7
tinteniac 363km - 2
quedillac 389km - 11
loudeac 448km - 24
st.nicholas 493km - 4
carhaix 526km - 13
brest 614km - 54
carhaix 698km - 26
loudeac 780km - 12
illifaut 820km - 32
tinteniac 865km - 14
fougeres 919km - 22
villaines 1008km - 10
mortagne 1089km - 7
dreux 1166km - 11
Oh, and despite all of the above, find zigzag's post where he lists how much time he stopped at each control on PBP. Utterly bonkers.
Found it:-insert numbers that lead to a <50hr ride here
No going quite far enough it seems. What's all this talk of stopping to piss?
I suppose one way of dealing with LMT's problem isto ignore him If he wants something he can bring it himself.
I suppose one way of dealing with LMT's problem isto ignore him If he wants something he can bring it himself.
I suppose one way of dealing with LMT's problem is mats. A specific route from entrance to toilets to control then out?
I'm not even suggesting the controls do this because tired cyclists are brain dead on these events and are incapable of following simple instructions. I know most of you are saints and will not divert from the path but I can assure you all I'd have to see is a nice cake in the distance and I'd be off clippety clopping on the floor in its direction. Ok first 200k I'd be capable but last 200k ... forget it.
Too much work and setting up though at the end of the day .... my opinion anyway.
we are far more interested in helping those who are struggling to finish than those who want to do a fast time.Well hurrah for that
I don't generally concern myself with control layouts. That's for the controllers to decide. Some of them read this forum but not all of them. We are all involved in this event because we like to make people happy. But for the most part we don't really care about your targets, and we are far more interested in helping those who are struggling to finish than those who want to do a fast time.
you’ll ride from London to Edinburgh and back in under five days. It’s not a race, but you have just over 100 hours to get back to London (https://londonedinburghlondon.com/about/)
I don't even want to get off my bike at the controls. You will arrange it so that if I phone ahead one of the controllers will pop out and stamp my brevet as I pass by won't you?
'Minutes are miles'
;)
No. Nominal distance only. Though some over-distance LRM 1200s have had extra time allowed, I'm not sure LEL is sufficiently over-distance.
No. Nominal distance only. Though some over-distance LRM 1200s have had extra time allowed, I'm not sure LEL is sufficiently over-distance.
Usually it's the organiser's call if they give you extra time for the overdistance or not, there's no specific rule about this.
Don't know whether it's a connection problem or not at my end but the LEL website, www.londonedinburghlondon.com appears to be down.
Andy Corless
Right thanks. It must be a problem at my end.
Andy Corless
I was just looking at the details for next year. I've now fixed the problem with the connection. It was at my side.
Andy Corless
Anybody know how the search for volunteers is shaping up?
After DNFing an entire SR2000 series this year, I'm giving up long rides until the kids are older, so looking to volunteer and pay forward some of the fun I had in 2009/2013.
Any days/locations in trouble? I can probably only do 2 days & am based in the south east
Cheers
Anybody know how the search for volunteers is shaping up?
After DNFing an entire SR2000 series this year, I'm giving up long rides until the kids are older, so looking to volunteer and pay forward some of the fun I had in 2009/2013.
Any days/locations in trouble? I can probably only do 2 days & am based in the south east
Cheers
You can register interest here (https://londonedinburghlondon.com/volunteer/)
There will be at least 2 of us (including the controller!) travelling from South Oxon to man the St Ives control, if you're interested.
(I am thinking it might be quite a nice day ride to get over there ... )
So just a heads up in case this hasn't yet been noticed by anyone. On the morning of the LEL prologue it looks as if the Mall will be closed for the end of RL100 and the prologue will have to find a way east out of London while thousands of cyclists will be hurtling west on closed roads from the Olympic Park.
Remember, sleeping during the event costs you riding time, sleeping before the event costs you nothing.
They might be in bed for 8pm the night before the start! We're saying the same thing but on different times scales :)
But you can not please all the people all the time and all that.
All times before 8am will be reserved for people riding at the 14kph minimum speed. The remaining am slots will be for people riding the prologue.
For everyone else, the start times will be between 2pm and 4pm.
Don't worry about intermediate times. None of the controls heading north will be closing, and I'm intensely relaxed about riders who turn up after an intermediate control has closed.With thanks to everyone else who chipped in :thumbsup: this is the reply that gives me the reassurance I needed, ie that I don't actually need to worry about Day 2 control times because they won't be being enforced. I can therefore plot a sleep strategy that will get me from L to E and back within the overall time limit, regardless of start time.
And one confused drunk, standing on a traffic island, asking where everyone was going.Did he finish? :)
And one confused drunk, standing on a traffic island, asking where everyone was going.
All times before 8am will be reserved for people riding at the 14kph minimum speed. The remaining am slots will be for people riding the prologue.meh. that doesn't suit me either. I'd be more in favour of spreading the start times if they gave the speed merchants the (for me) crummy start times*. (I've hear missing a night's sleep at the beginning of a 4-5 day ride does suit some people, just not me.)
For everyone else, the start times will be between 2pm and 4pm.
In fact, as a FVR what I actually need is the earliest possible start time in order to build up a practical sleep buffer for night one.
In fact, as a FVR what I actually need is the earliest possible start time in order to build up a practical sleep buffer for night one.
Not sure if this is really true on LEL, as orgs have already said they don't care about control closing times and won't disqualify anyone who run out of time at an intermediate control. So there is no technical reason for building up a time buffer for sleep. You can go into a time deficit at night and make the time good during the day. Mentally, this may be a bit stressful, though. Moreover, my problem on long brevets is that I' so excited that I often struggle to fall asleep at all.
The main thing that has changed my thinking is the late start times for 116 hr riders. Unless I was willing to ride; or say I was going to ride, the Prologue I must start between 14:00 and 16:00 on Sunday. So, that would mean riding through the night to get ahead of the clock and earn some sleep; or it should if LEL was an Audax.
To be fair to Alwyn, he has already said that one of his priorities this time is to ensure that those at the back end of the field don't feel they're getting a second class, second rate service.Indeedy.
While I would never categorise the 2013 experience in that way, those of us who were pushing the time limits did sometimes experience more limited menus and facilities than if we'd been a little quicker ...And I think you'd agree, at several controls the volunteers went to great lengths to make sure all riders got fed. :thumbsup:
To be fair to Alwyn, he has already said that one of his priorities this time is to ensure that those at the back end of the field don't feel they're getting a second class, second rate service.Indeedy.
I'd add that in 2009 I had a late start-time and finished in about 117hours - if anything the controls were nicely quiet when I got there - although I never lacked sociable company - making the experience very relaxed!
(Cant remember the exact start-time - lunch-ish? But I didnt rush the first day, got reasonable kip that night, and didnt miss any N-bound control times.)
Start time is possibly the least of the issues you might face out on a long brevet.
So ummmmm ::-) do we think this will fill with Audax members in January before the civvie entries open ?
So ummmmm ::-) do we think this will fill with Audax members in January before the civvie entries open ?
(Asking for a friend you understand)
I'd add that in 2009 I had a late start-time and finished in about 117hours - if anything the controls were nicely quiet when I got there - although I never lacked sociable company - making the experience very relaxed!
(Cant remember the exact start-time - lunch-ish? But I didnt rush the first day, got reasonable kip that night, and didnt miss any N-bound control times
All times before 8am will be reserved for people riding at the 14kph minimum speed. The remaining am slots will be for people riding the prologue.
For everyone else, the start times will be between 2pm and 4pm.
So - in theory - it would be possible to take part in the Ride London event, also on the Sunday, and still get over to Loughton in time to start LEL ;)
So - in theory - it would be possible to take part in the Ride London event, also on the Sunday, and still get over to Loughton in time to start LEL ;)
I've just entered the Ride 100 ballot for 2017, despite intending to ride LEL and am wondering if it will be possible to combine the two...
So - in theory - it would be possible to take part in the Ride London event, also on the Sunday, and still get over to Loughton in time to start LEL ;)
I've just entered the Ride 100 ballot for 2017, despite intending to ride LEL and am wondering if it will be possible to combine the two...
So - in theory - it would be possible to take part in the Ride London event, also on the Sunday, and still get over to Loughton in time to start LEL ;)
I've just entered the Ride 100 ballot for 2017, despite intending to ride LEL and am wondering if it will be possible to combine the two...
And the Mersey Roads the weekend before ?
So - in theory - it would be possible to take part in the Ride London event, also on the Sunday, and still get over to Loughton in time to start LEL ;)
I've just entered the Ride 100 ballot for 2017, despite intending to ride LEL and am wondering if it will be possible to combine the two...
That's one of those theoretical possibilities that I think I wish hadn't been mentioned.
Hmmm
So - in theory - it would be possible to take part in the Ride London event, also on the Sunday, and still get over to Loughton in time to start LEL ;)
I've just entered the Ride 100 ballot for 2017, despite intending to ride LEL and am wondering if it will be possible to combine the two...
And the Mersey Roads the weekend before ?
So ummmmm ::-) do we think this will fill with Audax members in January before the civvie entries open ?
(Asking for a friend you understand)
I would expect not, I do not know the split, but I suspect non-auks were significantly more prevalent than auks on the start line last time.
Of course with the carrot of guaranteed entry, many people may have become auks since then.
But I would still expect that there will be many places left after the auk registration period. There are probably only a few hundred auks who want to ride the longer brevets. PBP is the flagship gold standard of long distance randonneuring and something like 600 auks did that in 2015. So I would expect a little less for LEL. sorry - went to check. Only 402 AUKs completed PBP in 2015. I am not sure of DNF rate, but that can't be much more than 450 AUKs who were on the start line of PBP? Looking at http://www.aukweb.net/results/archive/2013/listevent/?Ride=13-1 a rough guestimate on the the composition of the 805 finishers would be 30-40% are AUKs? 300ish? Again, probably no more than 350 AUKs on the startline of LEL in 2013 So, really nothing much to worry about, with the caveat of the carrot.
Anyway, someone who knows the numbers will be along soon.
I suppose over winter, I better think about whether to do it or to volunteer next year.
Edit - much x-post with jsabine!
So ummmmm ::-) do we think this will fill with Audax members in January before the civvie entries open ?
(Asking for a friend you understand)
I would expect not, I do not know the split, but I suspect non-auks were significantly more prevalent than auks on the start line last time.
Of course with the carrot of guaranteed entry, many people may have become auks since then.
But I would still expect that there will be many places left after the auk registration period. There are probably only a few hundred auks who want to ride the longer brevets. PBP is the flagship gold standard of long distance randonneuring and something like 600 auks did that in 2015. So I would expect a little less for LEL. sorry - went to check. Only 402 AUKs completed PBP in 2015. I am not sure of DNF rate, but that can't be much more than 450 AUKs who were on the start line of PBP? Looking at http://www.aukweb.net/results/archive/2013/listevent/?Ride=13-1 a rough guestimate on the the composition of the 805 finishers would be 30-40% are AUKs? 300ish? Again, probably no more than 350 AUKs on the startline of LEL in 2013 So, really nothing much to worry about, with the caveat of the carrot.
Anyway, someone who knows the numbers will be along soon.
I suppose over winter, I better think about whether to do it or to volunteer next year.
Edit - much x-post with jsabine!
This calculation won't work 100%. Among the foreign AUK members quite a large percentage did LEL in the past So using the UK PBP participation as a starting point for your calculations will leave out the foreign AUK members. I know of quite a few, some of them also being volunteers of the 2013 LEL.
I just watched the MadeGood film of the 2013 event; hoping it would spur me on to build more enthusiasm for entering the 2017 edition.
Sadly, all it's done is serve to remind me just how much pain and suffering this level of self-harm induces. :facepalm:
Ah well - early days...
I just watched the MadeGood film of the 2013 event; hoping it would spur me on to build more enthusiasm for entering the 2017 edition.
Sadly, all it's done is serve to remind me just how much pain and suffering this level of self-harm induces. :facepalm:
Ah well - early days...
Go on, go on, go on, go on...
I just watched the MadeGood film of the 2013 event; hoping it would spur me on to build more enthusiasm for entering the 2017 edition.
Sadly, all it's done is serve to remind me just how much pain and suffering this level of self-harm induces. :facepalm:
Ah well - early days...
Go on, go on, go on, go on...
You riding it Graeme?
I just watched the MadeGood film of the 2013 event; hoping it would spur me on to build more enthusiasm for entering the 2017 edition.
Sadly, all it's done is serve to remind me just how much pain and suffering this level of self-harm induces. :facepalm:
Ah well - early days...
I just watched the MadeGood film of the 2013 event; hoping it would spur me on to build more enthusiasm for entering the 2017 edition.
Sadly, all it's done is serve to remind me just how much pain and suffering this level of self-harm induces. :facepalm:
Ah well - early days...
(https://scontent.fman2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/1013285_10201826269644544_1956480077_n.jpg?oh=445fd2f215154d1f2c4fb5dbd2dfcc92&oe=5814BB8C)
Yeah, so much pain.
And how many people in the photo are wearing their own sandals?I just watched the MadeGood film of the 2013 event; hoping it would spur me on to build more enthusiasm for entering the 2017 edition.
Sadly, all it's done is serve to remind me just how much pain and suffering this level of self-harm induces. :facepalm:
Ah well - early days...
(https://scontent.fman2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/1013285_10201826269644544_1956480077_n.jpg?oh=445fd2f215154d1f2c4fb5dbd2dfcc92&oe=5814BB8C)
Yeah, so much pain.
;D
Pwn3d :)
I just watched the MadeGood film of the 2013 event; hoping it would spur me on to build more enthusiasm for entering the 2017 edition.
Sadly, all it's done is serve to remind me just how much pain and suffering this level of self-harm induces. :facepalm:
Ah well - early days...
(https://scontent.fman2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/1013285_10201826269644544_1956480077_n.jpg?oh=445fd2f215154d1f2c4fb5dbd2dfcc92&oe=5814BB8C)
Yeah, so much pain.
;D
Pwn3d :)
Preparation. Did my first RRtY this year, finally rode an Easter Arrow without anyone dying, and have a DIY600 planned for August Bank Holiday weekend. Then if that goes well will use it as the beginning of another RRtY which will be completed with LEL. Also - just off the route as we cross the Humber Bridge is my new home - also known as 'change of clothes central'.
Oh the best laid plans of mice!
I'm not going to ride. I've done it before and for me, fun as it was, I'd rather spend that £350+ on new roads, preferably somewhere with MOAR CHEESE.
So ummmmm ::-) do we think this will fill with Audax members in January before the civvie entries open ?
(Asking for a friend you understand)
To be fair to Alwyn, he has already said that one of his priorities this time is to ensure that those at the back end of the field don't feel they're getting a second class, second rate service.
While I would never categorise the 2013 experience in that way, those of us who were pushing the time limits did sometimes experience more limited menus and facilities than if we'd been a little quicker ...
I'm not going to ride. I've done it before and for me, fun as it was, I'd rather spend that £350+ on new roads, preferably somewhere with MOAR CHEESE.
I'm not going to ride. I've done it before and for me, fun as it was, I'd rather spend that £350+ on new roads, preferably somewhere with MOAR CHEESE.
Pretty much my conclusion. I've done the last two - 2009 was a survival exercise due to the weather, whereas 2013 was comparatively fast and enjoyable (particularly the international riding company). So I've had the best and worst of LEL and ride the route northbound annually anyway, so I think I'll give it a miss this time and put the money towards a foreign tour.
Yeah, this was our second top negative from 2013, trumped only by running volunteers into the ground. The latter almost certainly leads to the former.
This is going to be even more important anyway, as spreading out the start times means the controls are busier for longer before their closing time. Much like the riders, it's tempting to waste all your energy at the beginning when you're all fresh and excited. The controllers will have to temper that in their teams, so they don't burn out.
Heather ran a workshop on this at our controllers' meeting last October. Having much more budget this time allows us to buy in a lot more supporting service, so every control will have a proper, professional catering option this time. This should mean that the riders at the back get a proper meal and not the dregs. We've also given a lot more thought about how to downsize a control so riders aren't rattling around empty halls and canteens. We're also spending a lot of the increased fee on giving volunteers a proper bed to sleep in and some non-canteen meals, so they're not hollowed out by the end of the event.
I'm not going to ride. I've done it before and for me, fun as it was, I'd rather spend that £350+ on new roads, preferably somewhere with MOAR CHEESE.
Pretty much my conclusion. I've done the last two - 2009 was a survival exercise due to the weather, whereas 2013 was comparatively fast and enjoyable (particularly the international riding company). So I've had the best and worst of LEL and ride the route northbound annually anyway, so I think I'll give it a miss this time and put the money towards a foreign tour.
Not wanting to turn this into a thread about why we're not going, but I'm also going to skip this one. I don't have firm plans for next year, but LEL doesn't really work for me.
Yeah, this was our second top negative from 2013, trumped only by running volunteers into the ground. The latter almost certainly leads to the former.
This is going to be even more important anyway, as spreading out the start times means the controls are busier for longer before their closing time. Much like the riders, it's tempting to waste all your energy at the beginning when you're all fresh and excited. The controllers will have to temper that in their teams, so they don't burn out.
Heather ran a workshop on this at our controllers' meeting last October. Having much more budget this time allows us to buy in a lot more supporting service, so every control will have a proper, professional catering option this time. This should mean that the riders at the back get a proper meal and not the dregs. We've also given a lot more thought about how to downsize a control so riders aren't rattling around empty halls and canteens. We're also spending a lot of the increased fee on giving volunteers a proper bed to sleep in and some non-canteen meals, so they're not hollowed out by the end of the event.
I have every faith in the LEL team getting things right and I'm sure things will run smooth. A warning about professional caterers though. We all experienced the problems at the PBP Velodrome with the meal at the start, the caterers there seemed totally unprepared for the numbers and quantities that cyclists consume, they really need to be warned of our appetite. Similarly at Carhaix, the professional caterers there simply worked to a budget and once the food was gone they refused to improvise and make any effort to help out the team at Carhaix. You paid your money, we provided the food, it's gone, tough.
Not as simple as that but in short that's what happened. I'm sure you are aware of this but having a professional team in to help can have consequences.
A warning about professional caterers though. We all experienced the problems at the PBP Velodrome with the meal at the start, the caterers there seemed totally unprepared for the numbers and quantities that cyclists consume, they really need to be warned of our appetite. Similarly at Carhaix, the professional caterers there simply worked to a budget and once the food was gone they refused to improvise and make any effort to help out the team at Carhaix. You paid your money, we provided the food, it's gone, tough.
Not as simple as that but in short that's what happened. I'm sure you are aware of this but having a professional team in to help can have consequences.
Our big lesson from last time was that controls that focussed on a basic menu did much better than those that tried to offer many more options. More options leads to longer queues and much more food waste.
The last three controls I've run for other people, I've made trays of corned beef has and cheese pie, both based on heavily seasoned mashed potato. No chewing required. I can't make it fast enough, it flies out.
The last three controls I've run for other people, I've made trays of corned beef has and cheese pie, both based on heavily seasoned mashed potato. No chewing required. I can't make it fast enough, it flies out.
Was that on the National 400?
both based on heavily seasoned mashed potato. No chewing required. I can't make it fast enough, it flies out.
both based on heavily seasoned mashed potato. No chewing required. I can't make it fast enough, it flies out.
:o
I'll be avoiding those then...
Yeah, soft food is always more popular. Mince, mash, sausages, rice pudding, soup, pasta.
The last three controls I've run for other people, I've made trays of corned beef has and cheese pie, both based on heavily seasoned mashed potato. No chewing required. I can't make it fast enough, it flies out.
I've had my fill of bland pasta (in flavour-free veggie sauce) and bland soup (often similar to the pasta sauces) at "fully catered" controls over the last few years. I'm not keen on rice pudding, but yes, it does go down easily enough. I'd rather pay £5-6 extra for some morale-boosting food somewhere.
I long for sausages, corned beef hash, cheese pie ... sounds like bliss. Then again I could eat beans-on-toast at every other control and be pretty happy, so I may be unusual.
Yes, can't please everyone. FWIW I'd vote for bland sloppy food - rice or pasta. Can see why jacket potatoes wouldn't be so popular.
"what I'm doing is paying money for good freelance cooks who can make a decent meal with that sort of cost of ingredients. It's cheaper to pay for talent than to pay Brakes to make it all and deliver it to us."
Alwyn sounds like he knows what he is doing.
Vegetable soup is great for electrolytes but useless for energy (unless soaked into bread ± butter)...
Yes, can't please everyone. FWIW I'd vote for bland sloppy food - rice or pasta. Can see why jacket potatoes wouldn't be so popular.
"what I'm doing is paying money for good freelance cooks who can make a decent meal with that sort of cost of ingredients. It's cheaper to pay for talent than to pay Brakes to make it all and deliver it to us."
Alwyn sounds like he knows what he is doing.
Jacket potatoes might need too much effort per Calorie for the exhausted AUK. They are good nutrition but need to be chewed and digested; There's also the fibre. The exhausted AUK might prefer instant mashorand custard.
Some will need easy calories but some will want interesting food.
Vegetable soup is great for electrolytes but useless for energy (unless soaked into bread ± butter)...
Warm jacket potatoes are great to eat on the move too.Hmmm. Cheesy beans is obvs the best. Next ride I might try that, scooping out the soft stuff, leaving the skins as takeaway food (they seem much more portable than a whole one).
...
and also cheese and baked beans (even messier on the move).
Changing the topic a touch...
I'm increasingly inclined to scratch the prologue. Ride London have bagsied all the nice roads. I thought I could work around this, and using Tower Bridge as a start would have provided a fresh route and photo opportunity for everyone. However, many of the roads around there are blocked too. To make matters worse still, Tower Bridge is a trunk road which meets with other trunk roads by the tower.
What's more, it'd cost £1,000 to hire the start location.
So, I might abandon an official ride in favour of something unofficial for those who are staying in town and want to ride to the start.
I had decided to make riding the prologue a condition of a morning start at a tourist pace, so those riders weren't waiting around at the start all morning. There's obviously no need for this now. However I'm aware that this will mean a bit of a bunfight for morning starts. I have no idea yet how I will allocate those. Any idea gratefully received, though obviously I reserve the right to make the final decision about what to do.
Changing the topic a touch...
I'm increasingly inclined to scratch the prologue. Ride London have bagsied all the nice roads. I thought I could work around this, and using Tower Bridge as a start would have provided a fresh route and photo opportunity for everyone. However, many of the roads around there are blocked too. To make matters worse still, Tower Bridge is a trunk road which meets with other trunk roads by the tower.
Thank Marcus, all useful stuff.
We're going to have a bit of party somewhere in East London anyway on Friday night, so we can certainly build in a social element before the event. Joining the free ride might work too.
A boiled potato is approx 72 kcal/100g http://www.weightlossresources.co.uk/calories-in-food/veg/boiled-potatoes.htm (http://www.weightlossresources.co.uk/calories-in-food/veg/boiled-potatoes.htm)
Food calories are not all equal.
:sick:
Why have gels when you can have CAEK, Frijj and PIES? (Pies aren't something I like but others like Ginster's pasties.)
That's the problem - one man's meat is another's poison...
and I think food desires change as a ride progresses.
I had decided to make riding the prologue a condition of a morning start at a tourist pace, so those riders weren't waiting around at the start all morning. There's obviously no need for this now. However I'm aware that this will mean a bit of a bunfight for morning starts. I have no idea yet how I will allocate those. Any idea gratefully received, though obviously I reserve the right to make the final decision about what to do.
Did I imagine it, or do volunteers from previous LELs get preferential choice of start time?
I had decided to make riding the prologue a condition of a morning start at a tourist pace, so those riders weren't waiting around at the start all morning. There's obviously no need for this now. However I'm aware that this will mean a bit of a bunfight for morning starts. I have no idea yet how I will allocate those. Any idea gratefully received, though obviously I reserve the right to make the final decision about what to do.
How about this :)Did I imagine it, or do volunteers from previous LELs get preferential choice of start time?
Well, that would certainly be one way to do it, and one I'd be very relaxed about doing.
Changing the topic a touch...
I'm increasingly inclined to scratch the prologue. Ride London have bagsied all the nice roads. I thought I could work around this, and using Tower Bridge as a start would have provided a fresh route and photo opportunity for everyone. However, many of the roads around there are blocked too. To make matters worse still, Tower Bridge is a trunk road which meets with other trunk roads by the tower.
What's more, it'd cost £1,000 to hire the start location.
So, I might abandon an official ride in favour of something unofficial for those who are staying in town and want to ride to the start.
I had decided to make riding the prologue a condition of a morning start at a tourist pace, so those riders weren't waiting around at the start all morning. There's obviously no need for this now. However I'm aware that this will mean a bit of a bunfight for morning starts. I have no idea yet how I will allocate those. Any idea gratefully received, though obviously I reserve the right to make the final decision about what to do.
I quite like the idea of the Freecycle the day before - 8 mile closed road pootle around the sights/sites of London.
I quite like the idea of the Freecycle the day before - 8 mile closed road pootle around the sights/sites of London.
Me too. Could be good if timed with registration
Perhaps arrange for the LEL riders to complete the route in a single block to the exclusion of casual riders.
One of the most dangerous rides I've ever done! Loads of cyclists together, many children and I reckon 95% of them had never cycled in close proximity to other cyclists. Random stopping, turning etc etc.
Did I imagine it, or do volunteers from previous LELs get preferential choice of start time?
Well, that would certainly be one way to do it, and one I'd be very relaxed about doing.
I struggled with the problem of filming the prologue in 2013. It had rained heavily in the night, and it was unclear if there'd be enough light at 6am to do a decent job.
I decided to film the Davenant School starts instead, as I'd have missed a lot of riders otherwise. I knew that I'd be able to film on the Ride London on the following Saturday. The central London scenes in our film are from that. I knew that Mem Sec would be around in his LEL top, so that would link it back.
Some sort of 'registration lite' on the Ride London route might free up the day for visitors. All that's needed is a banner and a laptop at a pre-determined point. Bring out a load of jerseys on a cargo bike, and you've got endless photo opportunities. Those who opted for that could then arrive a couple of hours before their start time to complete the process. Same effect as the prologue without the need for two trips to Loughton.
FWIW, registration worked really well last time (for us at least - others may have found different). I appreciate the increase in numbers in 2017, but might the previous model simply scale up?
I am happy with previous volunteers getting early starts. For the rest why not let people pay extra for an early start. Setup an auction and let people bid for the early start slots at the same time as registration in January. The. You will know how much premium the early start is worth for next time!
For the rest why not let people pay extra for an early start. Setup an auction and let people bid for the early start slots at the same time as registration in January. The. You will know how much premium the early start is worth for next time!
hmmm...I'm increasingly drawn towards the audacious option of doing Ride London then a late and lazy start and short first day, picking up speed and distance on following days...if say I start at 4pm and ride say about 150k by midnight, will there be a control with beds around there?
The other advantage of a late start is that you could sleep at St Ives or Great Easton (if you got lucky) on Thursday night and enjoy a leisurely ride back to Loughton.
A convincing schedule for a 115 hour ride, starting in the middle of the day, may help allay fears that a 6am start is the only way to have a chance of finishing the ride.
Given the stated relaxed attitude at the intermediate controls on the way north, I do quite fancy a late start. A 4pm departure would even allow a leisurely train journey from Edinburgh on the day after a full last night in my own bed and not having to get up too early - sounds increasingly attractive! :)
EDIT: 1st train from Edinburgh on a Sunday doesn't get into King's Cross until 13:44, if it's on time ... probably cutting it too fine, especially with time needed for registration?
My only preferred option to that would be - if there were a need for an experimental small ELE group to test the flow of riders or something - to be part of that ;-). Complete cloud cuckoo land? Just thinking out aloud ...
I just made a rough schedule:
hour time for stage total time control distance for stage
01h30 5h 108h30 Great Easton 72km
sleep 2h 110h30
07h30 4h 114h30 Loughton 48km
I'll have to plan things carefully if I want to be cycling fit enough to get round LEL while also continuing my rowing development.
On the LEL facebook pager there's a poll asking whether you think you'll want to ride in sub 100 hours or sub 116 hours.
How does this sit with Audax time rules ? I thought events 1300 to 1800 are 12KPH limit.
I'm not critisising in any way, just asking for an explanation.
On the LEL facebook pager there's a poll asking whether you think you'll want to ride in sub 100 hours or sub 116 hours.PBP has 90h, 84h and 80h limits; ask them!
How does this sit with Audax time rules ? I thought events 1300 to 1800 are 12KPH limit.
I'm not critisising in any way, just asking for an explanation.
How is it decided who is in the invite only group?
Asking for a friend.
there isn't an hour of the day I would have a Mr Softee I've cream. Any mileage in getting ice cream van companies tendering for pitches at each of the controls? Our school PTA usually gets a donation to allow an ice cream can in for school fetes.
How is it decided who is in the invite only group?
Asking for a friend.
I've already invited a few people, and will probably put a call out in due course for other interested folk. I'm likely to ask for evidence of fast times on similar events or other feats of endurance. A sub 90-hr 1001 Miglia or LEL or a sub 70-hr PBP would almost certainly earn you an invite.
... A sub 90-hr 1001 Miglia or LEL or a sub 70-hr PBP would almost certainly earn you an invite.
there isn't an hour of the day I would have a Mr Softee I've cream. Any mileage in getting ice cream van companies tendering for pitches at each of the controls? Our school PTA usually gets a donation to allow an ice cream can in for school fetes.
As a volunteer at Barnard Castle, I heard of quite a few riders who bought ice cream from the garage nearby - I think the garage all but sold out at one point.
Would a sub 76hr for last LEL be recent enough?
...
Would a sub 76hr for last LEL be recent enough?
...
So you have been in the top 7, right?
I'm sure that @alwyn will invite you.
Regarding the 05:00 start. I'm flexible on the criteria for getting an invite to this. It depends on how many people want a slot and their previous palmares.
What I'm not flexible on though is the event entry criteria. You'll need to get a place before you get an invite to the 05:00 group. It's not a fast-track to getting a place on the ride.
Can we have Francis Cade do the videos?
You Tube: Francis Cade (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHyBWpfAggsFPDc5A7l_eWA)
You Tube: Transcontinental (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKRsd5HOKbR2O4517b7cmLA)
I think ice creams and ice lollies are the sort of product best left to others to supply.
If LEL2017 turns out like LEL2009 weather-wise, we'd be left with a lot of unwanted ice cream after the event.
If LEL2017 turns out like LEL2009 weather-wise, we'd be left with a lot of unwanted ice cream after the event.
If LEL2017 turns out like LEL2009 weather-wise, we'd be left with a lot of unwanted ice cream after the event.
I'm not sure it can ever get cold enough to make ice cream unattractive.
Maybe if your lips have frozen together?
Maybe you forget evaporative cooling.
2009 had 'Biblical flooding' over parts of the northern section. Coupling a temperature of 5C with wind-driven rain can leave the Exhausted AUK very cold, especially if low on food.
Maybe you forget evaporative cooling.
2009 had 'Biblical flooding' over parts of the northern section. Coupling a temperature of 5C with wind-driven rain can leave the Exhausted AUK very cold, especially if low on food.
Indeed. Add in the lack of any heating, emergency blankets or warm food/liquid at the emergency shelter that was opened up between Edinburgh and Eskdalemuir and it's amazing that none of us that had to spend the night there, having battled our way through howling winds and torrential rain, ended up with hypothermia. ISTR Matt C and I forcing ourselves back out on the road just after dawn only on the warped logic that it was probably warmer outside!
I think ice creams and ice lollies are the sort of product best left to others to supply.
If LEL2017 turns out like LEL2009 weather-wise, we'd be left with a lot of unwanted ice cream after the event.
I think ice creams and ice lollies are the sort of product best left to others to supply.
If LEL2017 turns out like LEL2009 weather-wise, we'd be left with a lot of unwanted ice cream after the event.
Thanks for the feedback, I'm sure you've got plenty more important things to think about.
On the first day of LEL, I might nip into the garage near the Barnard Castle control and let them it might be worth topping up the ice cream freezer - at their own risk and discretion, of course.
That night between Traquir and Eskdalemuir ..
Is the only time EVER on an audax that I have thought .. If this goes wrong I could die.
Accident .. Off bike .. side of road in grass .. lying down .. hypothermia .. might I have died ????.
fortunately i did not find out.. but I was shit scared.
and overseas readers .. that was Scotland in summer.
I think ice creams and ice lollies are the sort of product best left to others to supply.
If LEL2017 turns out like LEL2009 weather-wise, we'd be left with a lot of unwanted ice cream after the event.
Thanks for the feedback, I'm sure you've got plenty more important things to think about.
On the first day of LEL, I might nip into the garage near the Barnard Castle control and let them it might be worth topping up the ice cream freezer - at their own risk and discretion, of course.
You know the control location's changed, right? It'll now be the posh school near the Bowes Museum, rather than the Teesdale School. Good for riders as we won't have to hack up the high street.
You know the control location's changed, right? It'll now be the posh school near the Bowes Museum, rather than the Teesdale School. Good for riders as we won't have to hack up the high street.
That night between Traquir and Eskdalemuir ..
Is the only time EVER on an audax that I have thought .. If this goes wrong I could die.
Accident .. Off bike .. side of road in grass .. lying down .. hypothermia .. might I have died ????.
fortunately i did not find out.. but I was shit scared.
and overseas readers .. that was Scotland in summer.
You know the control location's changed, right? It'll now be the posh school near the Bowes Museum, rather than the Teesdale School. Good for riders as we won't have to hack up the high street.
You'll still go up the high street on the way out. North of Barnard Castle the route takes a small loop up to Middleton.
Would a sub 76hr for last LEL be recent enough?
...
So you have been in the top 7, right?
I'm sure that @alwyn will invite you.
yes i was.
A convincing schedule for a 115 hour ride, starting in the middle of the day, may help allay fears that a 6am start is the only way to have a chance of finishing the ride.
I just made a rough schedule:
hour time for stage total time control distance for stage
12h00 0h 0h Loughton 0km
07h30 4h 114h30 Loughton 48km
Assumption is in this schedule that you ride (except for the first stage) 15km/h including stops between the sleepstops, for the return leg a tad slower.
So you have been in the top 7, right?
I'm sure that @alwyn will invite you.
yes i was.
If I recall you were fifth to arrive at Barnard Castle on the way up at not long after midnight.
The first four were all on uprights and all mainland Europeans, so you were also the first British rider at that point.
Just let the bloke finish his beans on toast off for goodness sake.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBIU38fbiyA
So you have been in the top 7, right?
I'm sure that @alwyn will invite you.
yes i was.
If I recall you were fifth to arrive at Barnard Castle on the way up at not long after midnight.
The first four were all on uprights and all mainland Europeans, so you were also the first British rider at that point.
Not entirely correct. I guess @yanto started in the D-group, right? The first british rider who reached Barnard Castle on the way north was A32 on an upright. German rider A28 used a recumbent at that time and was the first non upright in BC. Meanwhile he nearly always drives a velomobile.
Take a look at this list (http://axel-koenig.com/results/lel2013/en?sort=K6&sortorder=asc), which is sorted by time of arrival for the control in Barnard Castle.
Take a look at this list (http://axel-koenig.com/results/lel2013/en?sort=K6&sortorder=asc), which is sorted by time of arrival for the control in Barnard Castle.
So you have been in the top 7, right?
I'm sure that @alwyn will invite you.
yes i was.
If I recall you were fifth to arrive at Barnard Castle on the way up at not long after midnight.
The first four were all on uprights and all mainland Europeans, so you were also the first British rider at that point.
Not entirely correct. I guess @yanto started in the D-group, right? The first british rider who reached Barnard Castle on the way north was A32 on an upright. German rider A28 used a recumbent at that time and was the first non upright in BC. Meanwhile he nearly always drives a velomobile.
Take a look at this list (http://axel-koenig.com/results/lel2013/en?sort=K6&sortorder=asc), which is sorted by time of arrival for the control in Barnard Castle.
What is the main road bash between Thirsk and Pocklington (A19, round/through York , then A1079?) like in the evening/night? Worthwhile considering at the right time of day/night?
I just made a rough schedule:Thanks. I guess it would be best to adjust this so that the sleep-stops on the way up and on the way down correspond with each other?
[...]
Assumption is in this schedule that you ride (except for the first stage) 15km/h including stops between the sleepstops, for the return leg a tad slower.
I just made a rough schedule:Thanks. I guess it would be best to adjust this so that the sleep-stops on the way up and on the way down correspond with each other?
[...]
Assumption is in this schedule that you ride (except for the first stage) 15km/h including stops between the sleepstops, for the return leg a tad slower.
I just made a rough schedule:Thanks. I guess it would be best to adjust this so that the sleep-stops on the way up and on the way down correspond with each other?
[...]
Assumption is in this schedule that you ride (except for the first stage) 15km/h including stops between the sleepstops, for the return leg a tad slower.
Absolutely no need to match sleep stops north and south. Just have them when you need them.
I just made a rough schedule:Thanks. I guess it would be best to adjust this so that the sleep-stops on the way up and on the way down correspond with each other?
[...]
Assumption is in this schedule that you ride (except for the first stage) 15km/h including stops between the sleepstops, for the return leg a tad slower.
Absolutely no need to match sleep stops north and south. Just have them when you need them.
The only justiification for aiming to sleep at same places north & south would be to access bag drops at sleep both ways. Then you don't have to carry your teddy bear and pyjamas with you. The problem with that is that it tends to lock you (mentally) into a schedule, and you either stop to sleep before you need to - or you push on in increasingly tired state, going slower and slower, trying to reach the control where your bag drop is....& by the time you get there you've no time to sleep anyway, and are in too befuddled a state of mind to use the contents of the bag. DAMHIKT :facepalm:
Putting teddy bears in bags is cruel so find room for him too.
One of the staff at the Alston garage/mini-market noticed my LEL top whilst I was on The Old 240 this weekend. She asked 'when the next audax is', meaning the next LEL. She asked for the dates, but I couldn't tell her off hand. She commented that there was a group of riders waiting outside for coffee/breakfast etc when they opened in the morning. I think she was implying that if they had a bit of notice they would be better prepared. They might even open early/late? I said I would pass it on, so hope this suffices.
One of the staff at the Alston garage/mini-market noticed my LEL top whilst I was on The Old 240 this weekend. She asked 'when the next audax is', meaning the next LEL. She asked for the dates, but I couldn't tell her off hand. She commented that there was a group of riders waiting outside for coffee/breakfast etc when they opened in the morning. I think she was implying that if they had a bit of notice they would be better prepared. They might even open early/late? I said I would pass it on, so hope this suffices.
I just made a rough schedule:Thanks. I guess it would be best to adjust this so that the sleep-stops on the way up and on the way down correspond with each other?
[...]
Assumption is in this schedule that you ride (except for the first stage) 15km/h including stops between the sleepstops, for the return leg a tad slower.
Absolutely no need to match sleep stops north and south. Just have them when you need them.
The only justiification for aiming to sleep at same places north & south would be to access bag drops at sleep both ways. Then you don't have to carry your teddy bear and pyjamas with you. The problem with that is that it tends to lock you (mentally) into a schedule, and you either stop to sleep before you need to - or you push on in increasingly tired state, going slower and slower, trying to reach the control where your bag drop is....& by the time you get there you've no time to sleep anyway, and are in too befuddled a state of mind to use the contents of the bag. DAMHIKT :facepalm:
I just made a rough schedule:Thanks. I guess it would be best to adjust this so that the sleep-stops on the way up and on the way down correspond with each other?
[...]
Assumption is in this schedule that you ride (except for the first stage) 15km/h including stops between the sleepstops, for the return leg a tad slower.
Absolutely no need to match sleep stops north and south. Just have them when you need them.
The only justiification for aiming to sleep at same places north & south would be to access bag drops at sleep both ways. Then you don't have to carry your teddy bear and pyjamas with you. The problem with that is that it tends to lock you (mentally) into a schedule, and you either stop to sleep before you need to - or you push on in increasingly tired state, going slower and slower, trying to reach the control where your bag drop is....& by the time you get there you've no time to sleep anyway, and are in too befuddled a state of mind to use the contents of the bag. DAMHIKT :facepalm:
Right. Assuming by teddy bear & pyjamas, you mean change of clothes, would you stop & shower/change clothes at the bag drop even if it wasn't your sleep stop?
.... would you stop & shower/change clothes at the bag drop even if it wasn't your sleep stop?I don't ever recall doing so.
All sounds good advice so far, as a first timer my question is how you all plan a strategy? where to stop? How do you split the ride up?
Any advice on this would be helpful.
Yesterday I had a sneak preview of the event-specific jerseys the Thai riders are bringing to LEL. Very classy.
None of my bag drops were at the sleep stops in 2013.... would you stop & shower/change clothes at the bag drop even if it wasn't your sleep stop?I don't ever recall doing so.
But a shower /change of clothes certainly has a strong revitalising effect, if one wakes up and thinks "that was not a long enough sleep".
Sufficiently so, that it's worth carrying at least a tiny bottle of shower gel, toothpaste & sawn-off toothbrush, even a diposable razor, possibly a fresh jersey & shorts, just in case you don't manage to link up with drop bag at opportune moment.
Yesterday I had a sneak preview of the event-specific jerseys the Thai riders are bringing to LEL. Very classy.
I hope there will be a thai rider as big as I am, so we can exchange jerseys!
All sounds good advice so far, as a first timer my question is how you all plan a strategy? where to stop? How do you split the ride up?
Any advice on this would be helpful.
Guess and be prepared to throw the plan away and have to come up with a completely new one (which may only last 200km, etc.)
Have you ridden a 600km ride? If so, how far in did you sleep? When did you start to feel (sleepy) tired? Did you finish comfortably in time or are you more of a full value rider?
If you've not done a 600km Audax, what's the longest ride you've done and how did you feel?
Yesterday I had a sneak preview of the event-specific jerseys the Thai riders are bringing to LEL. Very classy.
I hope there will be a thai rider as big as I am, so we can exchange jerseys!
There only a dozen or so aiming to go and most of them are not built to Dutch dimensions. Good luck.
All sounds good advice so far, as a first timer my question is how you all plan a strategy? where to stop? How do you split the ride up?
Any advice on this would be helpful.
Guess and be prepared to throw the plan away and have to come up with a completely new one (which may only last 200km, etc.)
Have you ridden a 600km ride? If so, how far in did you sleep? When did you start to feel (sleepy) tired? Did you finish comfortably in time or are you more of a full value rider?
If you've not done a 600km Audax, what's the longest ride you've done and how did you feel?
FWIW my initial plan for LEL 2009 was to cover the minimum required a day (24h * 12kph = 288km) and then sleep until I should be moving again.
This meant getting to the control at ~320km at the end of day 1 (the previous control wasn't far enough) and then eating/resting/sleeping until about 6am.
Day 2 ended up at a control about 620km. Again I set off early on Day 3, but the atrocious weather set in and slowed things (and most people) down.
I left the 800km control with 5 hours in hand and lost a small amount of time (thanks to a 1h emergency nap) by the time I got to the ~900km control.
I slept at the 900km control until I was on the time limit and then plodded on through the mildly hilly terrain.
My next sleep stop was at the 1100km control. I arrived with ~2 hours in hand but left slightly behind the time limits but knew I'd make it up by the next control as the weather was nice and I'd done all of the hills.
http://www.greenbank.org/misc/lel_time_in_hand.jpg
An afternoon start time makes it more interesting, on PBP 2011 I just rode straight through the first night after my 8pm start time (to get more time in hand) with the plan of having a bigger sleep at the end of night 2. It worked (kind of).
However, I'm lucky in that I can get by on 3h sleep a night during events like this (although spending 3 hours chatting to people at the 800km control on LEL 2009 would have been far better spent sleeping, I paid for that mistake shortly afterwards!)
So just to be clear?... there will be no control 'closing time' for a rider, until the very last one at 116:40. That makes it much easier to plan as you just have to ride 1400k in 116:40 and dont have to worry about intermediate times.
So just to be clear?... there will be no control 'closing time' for a rider, until the very last one at 116:40. That makes it much easier to plan as you just have to ride 1400k in 116:40 and dont have to worry about intermediate times.
I'm sure there will be control closing times. Think of the extremes; I don't think the first control (~100km) will be open until much more than a few hours after the last riders are supposed to be through. It's certainly not going to be open for days after that (until it's due to open for the fastest riders coming back South). Nor will it close the second the 12kph time limit is up for the last starting group.
If you have an early start time then the controls will still be officially open for the later start riders for hours after they have closed for you. (8am start vs 4pm start gives 8 hours 'spare', if such a wide spread of start times is offered). I wouldn't want to count on there being anything more than a few hours leeway after that.
As long as someone is making steady progress towards the finish (and would finish within the time limit) I'm sure that will be fine. What 'no control closing times' does not mean is that you can sit around at the start for 2 days and then smash the whole thing in just under 70 hours.
I, personally, would never consider a plan that has me arriving at a control when it has officially closed for me. Leaving a control when it has officially closed isn't a problem if I'm confident I can make it up on the next leg (and I've had to do this before).
Surely the northbound controls for you will be open on your Day 2 anyway, awaiting (or dealing with!) the southbound riders?
| km from start | km from end | Control close NB 12kph 4pm start | Control open SB 30kph 8am start |
| 100 | 1300 | 24:20:00 | 51:20:00 |
| 200 | 1200 | 32:40:00 | 48:00:00 |
| 300 | 1100 | 41:00:00 | 44:40:00 |
| 400 | 1000 | 49:20:00 | 41:20:00 |
But. But. But.
But what we're now doing is disincentivising the late starters all over again. Speaking only for myself, I shall be willing to do as suggested and request a late start but if and only if I have complete confidence that after a 4pm Day 1 start and, say, 3 hours sleep on Sunday night I shall still find fully-stocked Controls on Day 2. My target will be to be back within the time limits only by the end of Day 2.
What does it matter what time you start, you get the same time to do the ride in.
But. But. But.
But what we're now doing is disincentivising the late starters all over again. Speaking only for myself, I shall be willing to do as suggested and request a late start but if and only if I have complete confidence that after a 4pm Day 1 start and, say, 3 hours sleep on Sunday night I shall still find fully-stocked Controls on Day 2. My target will be to be back within the time limits only by the end of Day 2.
If you start late, you won't get any further than Moffat by day 2. All the controls up that point will still be open, either preparing for or supporting riders on the way back. With the greatest of respect, you're quite wrong.
All sounds good advice so far, as a first timer my question is how you all plan a strategy? where to stop? How do you split the ride up?LEL 2013 was my first ride beyond 600k. I did not have any sort of plan other than to ride until I was too tired to keep going, rest for a while, get up and do it again. It worked for me. And, even though I am not a particularly fast rider, I still spent quite a bit time enjoyably faffing at controls, and slept a good amount too. For most of the ride I kept up a buffer of 5 or 6 hours in case of emergency, until I decided the heat on the last day did constitute an emergency. I napped and waited out the day, and finished in the middle of the night with an hour to spare. So, I guess the point is that having a well planned strategy before hand is not really necessary. At each control you can assess what you need to do (eat, sleep, rest, or just ride through) to make it to the next control.
Any advice on this would be helpful.
In 2013 the hills didn't start until just outside Market Rasen, and then it was just one gasper to get up before screaming down to the bridge.
This time they start about 30km before Louth, and they roll continuously until you rejoin the 2013 route just before Caistor.
Bear that in mind with your calculations.
http://www.coachmag.co.uk/fitbit-50Pretty good going. Especially when you realise they have to run 50k along the way. Will I be that quick when I'm 50?
"Friday 30th September, morning: Event begins in front of Buckingham Palace
Saturday 1st October, morning: Teams reach Edinburgh Castle
Sunday 2nd October, morning: Teams reach the finish line in front of Buckingham Palace"
Bunch of loons... ;D
http://www.coachmag.co.uk/fitbit-50
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http://www.coachmag.co.uk/fitbit-50
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Teams of six with two riders on the road at any one time. So if split fairly each rider only has to do ~400km, all have to do the full 50km of running though (which is split up into 5 x 10km runs).
400km of riding and 50km running in 50 hours seems much more reasonable.
Ah, I see. The 2-stop controls will stay open until all the southbound riders have passed through. So if you're late heading north as far as Brampton, you're fine.
It's after Moffat that things become a bit tighter.
Apologies if that wasn't clear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBIU38fbiyA
At 6:11. wearing a German ARA jersey and holding a can of beer, and standing next to maverick otp, is Bernd Kaminski, who many people will remember as the captain of the comedy German tandem at the last LEL. I stayed with him a couple of weeks ago on my way back from the Arctic, and he tells me he's got a new stoker for next year.