Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => GPS => Topic started by: john the bike on 14 November, 2013, 09:49:50 am
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Hello all!
Can anyone please advise me on the simplest most user friendly GPS my eyesight and hearing are now a little impaired so tone and loud verbal instructions would be required, as such a good battery capacity also essential.
I have no knowledge of this equipment, and feel sure this would help with my audax riding. Am I asking the impossible? Please help.
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Are you looking for a SatNav guidance unit which shouts instructions, or a GPS enabled data recorder which makes feeble bleeps?
If the former, there is one out there, but it weighs 460g and battery refresh is necessary on a 200+ km ride.
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There are others on here who are better qualified to answer your question, though it would be helpful for you to describe what type of cycling you'd want it for. eg. mainly day rides or Audax, long tours or taining sessions. Different gps' are good at different things IME.
[Edit: just noticed you said Audax riding - Doh, RTFQ etc................ :-[ ]
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Are you looking for a SatNav guidance unit which shouts instructions, or a GPS enabled data recorder which makes feeble bleeps?
If the former, there is one out there, but it weighs 460g and battery refresh is necessary on a 200+ km ride.
And the former is? I'd be interested for day rides, never get anywhere 200km ...
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What you need is a mate with a GPS who shouts left, right or straight on as appropriate.
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I believe Ningishzidda is referring to the TomTom Motorcycle GPS:
http://www.tomtom.com/en_us/products/customised-navigation/motorbike-rider-series/tomtom-rider/#tab:specifications
Presumably it speaks directions, although you should check as from my time on motorized two wheels I doubt I could have heard a normal spoken GPS over the wind and through a full face helmet.
I'd say the main knock against it would be the claimed 6 hour battery life. There are larger screen Garmin models like the Montana, Monterra and Oregon; you might also consider just using a smart phone with a battery extender - in fact if you have a smart phone already I'd suggest trying that before investing in a GPS device, it may well cover all of your needs.
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It’s the previous model. Much lighter and lends itself to a neat homemade handlebar mount.
Spoken word is via Bluetooth earpiece. No problems hearing over traffic noise.
Battery life is extended by a homeadapted 4 x AA USB battpack.
This unit is NOT for the Technophile. There are no comms glitches, third party mapping misinterpretations and routing anomalies, so the technophile will be hard pushed to put his brain to work.
I jest.
The bottom line is it guides me round an Audax route with total success, so it fulfils its purpose.
Garmins have features which TT doesn’t ( cadence and HR ), and TT has features that Garmin doesn’t ( road type routing options )
My ‘must have’ requirement was a guidance system, with datalogging a secondary ‘nice to have’.
I do not use the logging facility on the TT. The Time displayed in the lower right corner of the screen tells me when I can get cake. ;D
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While most of my GPS use is logging related, so I make do with the foibles of navigating with an eTrex, I can't help thinking this makes a lot of sense if you're mainly interested in navigation that actually works.
TomTom app running on that Android-based Garmin anyone?
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I had a Garmin once upon a time. I used the logging features to record my commute home from work.
Strangely, these few months coincided with my closest near-misses with other vehicles, because of the “PB” thing.
I dabbled with Strava recently and soon realised it was actually encouraging cyclists to ride faster and unwittingly less careful. The two go hand in hand on the public roads.
I dumped Strava. I dumped Garmin for its ‘silly routing’ ideas.
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The routing is not great on a Garmin Edge, but doesn't bother me because I never use it. In fact I don't suppose many garmin users here do. Why would they? Being prepared (a few minutes with a web-based mapping page) is all it takes.
If you want some kind of magical mystery tour that you only decide to have when you are already out on your bike then I'm sure Ningish's Tom Tom is great.
I'd expect that most people here know their commute, and if they have a GPS for audax they have it to avoid any buggerring about at all with navigation, in which case the Garmin system is ideal. Plus they are small and light and don't look ridiculous.
In 7 years of using one I can only recall a couple of minor malfunctions, both of which were solvable with a reboot. So reliable have they been, that I've become blase about not carrying maps and route sheets.
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While most of my GPS use is logging related, so I make do with the foibles of navigating with an eTrex, I can't help thinking this makes a lot of sense if you're mainly interested in navigation that actually works.
TomTom app running on that Android-based Garmin anyone?
Just had search for Garmin Monterra. Just less than £600 with maps installed.
After lengthy thought ( approx. 4 nanoseconds ), I decided to stick with TT.
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The routing is not great on a Garmin Edge
Hmm, I'm not sure I agree with that.
The routing on the Edge is exactly the same as the routing on any other Garmin device I've used.
The routing is really not much a function of the device: they all use ( approximately! ) the same algorithm. Differences in routing decisions are 99.999% down to differences in maps, and the granularity of the routes you create and download to the device.
If you obtain or create a route from a 3-rd party source ( like a routing website ) and dump it straight onto the device, then don't be surprised if the route is not what you expect when following it. The maps in the device will have different routing data to the maps on the website.
To get consistent routing between your route planning on the PC and route following on-the-ride, you really need to be planning the route using the same maps and same routing logic as the device will use on-the-day. That means using mapsource / basecamp.
My workflow is like this:
1) If a GPX is available, download it.
Load it up in Mapsource. Examine it for sanity. Mapsource will now have 1 track, in grey.
Notice how the track will not exactly follow the roads in Mapsource: this is due to differences in the mapping between the source of the GPX and Mapsource.
2) Create waypoints at the controls.
Zoom in on Mapsource, and place the control waypoints as accurately as possible.
Give them short names that can be distinguished if truncated on a small screen.
Mapsource will now have 1 track, and N waypoints.
3) Create routes.
I usually create a minimum of 2 routes: an 'out' and 'back'.
I tend to set the routing for 'car / motorbike' on both Mapsource, and the device.
Use the route tool to create a route using the 'start' waypoint, and the waypoint at the furthest control.
Mapsource will auto-route between these points, ( the wrong way most likely ) exactly on the roads.
Now, I need to 'force' the route to follow the track.
Drag the route to furthest extremities of the track, which is visible.
This creates intermediate 'via' points. The route will re-calculate.
Continue to drag sections of the route onto the track untill there are sufficient 'via' points to constrain the route onto the top of the track all the way round.
Repeat for as many routes as you wish to use.
Mapsource will now have 1 track, N waypoints and 2 or more routes.
4) Sanity Check.
Go round the entire ride in Mapsource, and be sure the 'route' is following the 'track'. The route will exactly follow the roads, the track will not.
5) Send to device.
Clear all old routes / tracks / tracklogs / waypoints from the device, and use Mapsource to upload the new track, routes and waypoints.
Set the track to 'always show on map', and it will appear in the background. I usually set it to a lime green colour to make it visible both day and night.
6) Follow the route.
Since the device will have the same maps and routing logic as Mapsource, the should be no surprises.
The purple route will obscure the underlying green track if all is well.
If the purple route deviates from the underlying green track, something has gone wrong with the routing.
Follow the green track untill it resolves itself.
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Excellent advice.
Under point (6) - actually the Track sits on top of the Route, not underneath it (on my Etrex).
Here is an example of the Routing going wrong and the Track saving the day.
(http://www.aukadia.net/gps/colours3.gif)
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I think Flatus is meaning a situation where a point on the map is chosen and the device is asked to navigate there, without the device being connected to a computer, ie Ad-Hoc roaming.
If he does mean this, I agree.
To give an example.
I went to Go Outdoors in Castle Bromwich, Birmingham. I was browsing round and my phone rang. It was a friend in the Jewelley Quarter who said he had a particularly nice gemstone I ought to see before it went to the customer.
I asked for his address on my TT and it generated a route along roads, avoiding the A38(M) and Birmingham's inner ring road Queensway ( cus I'd set the Prefered Road type to mid range between Major amd Minor, and the Routing to 'Only by Bicycle' ).
When I departed my friend's workshop ( without stealing the diamond ) I asked TT to take me home, which it did by avoiding Queensway taking part of the No. 8 bus route to Tyseley.
When a Garmin is adjusted to 'Car/Motorcycle', forget ETA, 'Time to next' and 'Time to Finish'.
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On an Audax, all I need is the Address, postcode or Lat/Long of the controls and Infos and I can get round.
I usually build an Itinerary by using a routing package called Tyre. It works just like Googlemaps and can save the route as a ‘Garmin Global Positionig eXchange’ file or TomTom ‘ITiNerary’ file.
Copy the ITN to the folder on the unit and it can be picked up in the ‘Itineraries’ menu.
A supplied GPX can be chopped and edited on Tyre before saving as an ITN. Points on the supplied GPX can be deleted or moved to make it easier for both Garmin and TT to use.
I usually break down a whole Audax route into 50 km sections, and have a waypoint on the ITN about every 1.5 km.
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Excellent advice.
Under point (6) - actually the Track sits on top of the Route, not underneath it (on my Etrex).
Here is an example of the Routing going wrong and the Track saving the day.
(http://www.aukadia.net/gps/colours3.gif)
In that example, it's obvious that the route is wrong and the track is right...
The route just follows along the contours, whereas the track cuts across the contours at 90 degrees...
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That track is a railway, BTW ;D
I jest.
As a matter of interest, what caused the route to be different from the track?
What was the temporary remedial action to get the route to agree with the track during that ride?
What was the permanent remedial action to get the route to agree with tracks on subsequent rides?
What is the method of ensuring the route will agree with the track, and whereabouts in the procedure is it performed?
How many itterations of that stage of the procedure need to be done to get 99.999% confidence?
And finally, how would the non-Engineering, computer communications technology illiterate cyclist cope?
A final jest, and then I will shut up.
'NW to Market Street, his badge upon his chest, his name was Frankie, and he rode the longest Audax in the west."
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As a matter of interest, what caused the route to be different from the track?
Several things can.
1 - The maps you planned the route with may have been subtly different to the maps on the device. Perhaps you never got round to transferring the updated mapset from Mapsource. So the route weightings may have changed.
2 - The routing preferences may have been set differently during route planning on Mapsource vs on the device.
3 - The routing algorithm may be subtly different, but I've not observed this in practice.
4- 'Route Recalculation' enabled on the device.
I do not advise this normally. If Route Recalculation is enabled, then every time you deviate from the route, eg perhaps to go down a village street to a shop or toilets, then this will trigger a re-calculation. If you intend to deviate from the route ( and you almost always will ) then leave re-calculate off, and the purple line will stay where it always was, and it's up to you to manually return to the route.
I've seen cases when the re-calculated route does not correctly revert to the original route upon returning from a deviation. In this case, the fix is to to Stop Navigating, then re-start navigating the route from scratch. This will re-load the original route, and the device will discover you are already part-way along the route and continue as normal.
The only time I'd use Recalculation was if I'd been diverted significantly off-route for some reason, unable to return to the point where I deviated, and unsure of how to get back on-route, and needed guidance to get to the next control.
What was the temporary remedial action to get the route to agree with the track during that ride?
In most cases, simply ignore the purple route line and follow the green track one.
They will meet up again soon enough.
That's why I advised to have both displayed.
What was the permanent remedial action to get the route to agree with tracks on subsequent rides?
Careful planning using the method I described upthread, and a bit of practice.
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Regarding the Garmin Edge's sound, I have two, a 305 and an 800. I am half deaf and tone deaf as well, and despite the fact other riders around me can hear them beeping etc I very rarely hear them. I also have a Garmin Dakota 20 and the sound from that is more audible but it is only beeps etc and not verbal instructions
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For my unit, waypoints are place in the middle of the road, on the road well away from junctions. Waypoints are put about 1 mile apart.
Recalculation.
If the Org uses a gap in a hedge where the mapping doesn’t have a road or path, I put a waypoint immediately in front of the gap in the hedge where I should visibly see it in real life. I commit to memory this deliberate diversion off mettled road.
The device will guide me to the entrance of the gap and then the route on the screen will double back to take me a road and path route to the next waypoint, which is on the route the other side of the gap in the hedge.
As soon as I push my bike through the gap in the hedge and the unit recognises my position is on a road or path, it recalculates a new route to the next waypoint 1 mile away.
If I take a lengthy detour to a shop or lavvy, recalculation will recalculate to the next waypoint, which as far as the unit is concerned, is the next drop-off for a M/C courier rider. If it’s a real lengthy detour and I have local knowledge, I can go to the Itinerary details menu and tap waypoints as ‘Visited’ manually. Then the device will recalculate to the next unvisited waypoint on the list.
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...................................Now, I need to 'force' the route to follow the track.
Drag the route to furthest extremities of the track, which is visible.
This creates intermediate 'via' points. The route will re-calculate.
Continue to drag sections of the route onto the track untill there are sufficient 'via' points to constrain the route onto the top of the track all the way round.
Repeat for as many routes as you wish to use....................
This (above) is interesting to me. Although I am a long term confirmed 'Tracks' user, having found the Routing mechanism unreliable, it's been a long time since I attempted to devise Routes in Mapsource/Basecamp, one of the reasons being because I couldn't 'click-and-drag' the draft route to where I wanted it in the same manner I could with Autoroute (and now Google Maps).
I've just had a little play with Mapsource and Basecamp and I still can't see how to do that. I've looked in both their Help files and they still advise a method of creating and inserting extra points and re-ordering the viapoints, etc.
Am I missing something? How do you 'Drag the route' ?
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Yes, it's non-obvious.
Here's how to do it:
Use the 'selection tool' ( Arrow icon in the toolbar. )
Click on the route to 'select' it.
It goes from being light semi-transparent purple to dark opaque purple with arrows on it.
Once it is in this 'selected' state, click ( single click-and-release ) on it a second time, at the point you want to drag.
Now, move the mouse.
You see a new via-point with connecting lines to adjacent via-points.
Click on the new place you want the route to go via.
Pressing 'esc' will cancel a drag-in-progress.
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Have apply with this.
http://www.tyretotravel.com
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Yes, it's non-obvious.
Here's how to do it:
Use the 'selection tool' ( Arrow icon in the toolbar. )
Click on the route to 'select' it.
It goes from being light semi-transparent purple to dark opaque purple with arrows on it.
Once it is in this 'selected' state, click ( single click-and-release ) on it a second time, at the point you want to drag.
Now, move the mouse.
You see a new via-point with connecting lines to adjacent via-points.
Click on the new place you want the route to go via.
Pressing 'esc' will cancel a drag-in-progress.
Well I'm blowed! How on earth did you find that out?! Just experimenting? And how typical of Garmin to keep it a secret!
I can make it work, just as you say, in Mapsource, but I can't get it to do so in Basecamp, which is a shame because it could be very handy and I've been training myself to focus more on Basecamp because Garmin have stopped supporting/developing Mapsource.
I suppose though, that it still leaves the problem of never being certain that the GPS unit, when in use out on the road, will create the same route along the series of way/via-points that one sees on the PC screen at home, partly because of the factors you mention and partly because I believe your point 3 (different algorithms in the GPS unit) actually can often be a problem. It was explained to me by a Garmin support adviser a long time ago that since the GPS unit has far less computing power than a desktop, the route calculating algorithms cannot be as complex. Whether this is true today (or perhaps even was true then, knowing Garmin!) I cannot say, but it was a major reason in my decision a long time ago to avoid using Routes and just stick to Tracks.
I also avoided using Routing because I felt it ate up the battery power, but now I've found a way to run the GPS from my dynohub it might be fun to revisit this decision and try Routing again.
EDIT: actually, I've been playing in Basecamp and I think I've found it. You have to use the 'Insert' tool, click anywhere on the map and hover until a thick opaque line appears and then left click on it to activate the same 'moveable washing-line' between the two adjacent viapoints; then left-click where you want the additional viapoint to be to force a re-Route
Son of EDIT: cross-post with Fuaran!
Thanks guys.
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Well I'm blowed! How on earth did you find that out?! Just experimenting? And how typical of Garmin to keep it a secret!
I can make it work, just as you say, in Mapsource, but I can't get it to do so in Basecamp, which is a shame because it could be very handy and I've been training myself to focus more on Basecamp because Garmin have stopped supporting/developing Mapsource.
In Basecamp, select the route, then choose "Insert" on the toolbar. Then point the cursor at the route, and it will show a grey line for that leg of the the route. Then you can select that leg, and click to add extra points.
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Yes, it's non-obvious. Here's how to do it:
<blah blah>
Well I'm blowed! How on earth did you find that out?! Just experimenting? And how typical of Garmin to keep it a secret!
I can't remember, but I do recall it was a PITA to discover.
I suppose though, that it still leaves the problem of never being certain that the GPS unit, when in use out on the road, will create the same route along the series of way/via-points that one sees on the PC screen at home, partly because of the factors you mention and partly because I believe your point 3 (different algorithms in the GPS unit) actually can often be a problem.
Yes, that is always an un-known.
In reality, I've not found it to be an issue.
The best mitigation is to place many via-points, constraining the route as much as necessary.
But that's why I always have a track displayed at the same time as the route.
And in case of disagreement, I go with the track.
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Yes, sorry, I wasn't very clear about describing the routing facilities of the Garmin Edge. I don't like it because it is very fiddly to use and difficult to edit on the fly. Sure, it will get you where you want to go, but usually down roads I'd rather not use.
I must say wrt to plotting routes, I never use Map source. In fact I avoid, and always have avoided, Garmin software as I find it awful. I first tried it in 2003 and I've noticed that it still appears to be about 3 years behind everything else in terms of useability. Initially, I had to resort to the expensive and fiddly memory-map system in its pre-usb days.
These days, its a five minute romp on bike hike, one route only. Absolutely no need for splitting routes into out and back, nor if they cross over themsekves , the 705 takes care of this if you use the gpxx extension. One gpxx route file and that is it. Never lets me down. Purple line and flashed up junctions.Never had any real difficulties with differences between Googlemaps based plotting systems and Garmins maps.
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Have apply with this.
http://www.tyretotravel.com
Bloody autospell.
Have a PLAY with this.
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How to annoy the breeches off a Garmin Edge user.
Walk up to him five minutes before an event with TomTom in hand and say,
"The route's changed. A load of lanes have been blocked off by the police keeping demonstrators away from the county hunt, and we have to go a completely different way."
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I think you'd need two hands for your Tom-tom.
Looks like one of those child bike speedometers from the 70's
;D
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That’s an old joke that I’ve got over now.
I’ve heared them all.
“What’s on telly?”, “Where’s the keyboard?”, “Do you need a shoulder bag for the batteries?”
;D
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Thank you to all those who responded I have much to think about
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In fact, I bought a Huret cable speedometer for my 26" wheel youth's sports tourer in 1972.
It had a little post at 40 mph, but I made sure I could 'bend the needle'.
I had to take the bezel and glass off to return the needle back past the post after Gorcot Hill.