Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => On The Road => Topic started by: Robh on 11 May, 2015, 11:30:01 pm
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Bugger. Riding home tonight (at a moderate speed) a woman stepped off the pavement right in front of me without looking. I braked and went over the handlebars. I ended up on the floor and, despite the fact that I had collided with her - she broke my fall! - she just walked away. A couple of lads came to ask if I was all right, and a couple of cars stopped to check if I needed help. Fortunately, I seem to have just bruised an elbow and wrenched my knee - but here's the thing, it was the knee I had replaced just a couple of months ago. Lots of ice this evening and more of the same over the next few days are in order, I reckon. Could have been a lot worse.
Still shaken, but feeling lucky, and amazed that she could just walk away like that without even turning around to see if I was all right.
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Does this constitute "Leaving the scene of an accident", or is that just a motoring offence?
Hope you're OK, and mend quickly.
In the meantime: Bike OK?
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The bike is my Thorn Raven and it just picked up a scuff on the handlebar extension. Also, the back wheel was rubbing the brake, but I re-set the qr and it moved back - it had shifted in the drop out, probably because my weight was going through the pedal when the rear end raised up and the brake was on.
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During years of walking from station to work in London and back, along which route there are numerous cyclists, I have never seen a cyclist hit by a car, but on several occasions, collisions with unthinking pedestrians. It would appear that cyclists are more at risk from peds than from cars, albeit the consequences of collision may be less catastrophic for the cyclist.
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During years of walking from station to work in London and back, along which route there are numerous cyclists, I have never seen a cyclist hit by a car, but on several occasions, collisions with unthinking pedestrians. It would appear that cyclists are more at risk from peds than from cars, albeit the consequences of collision may be less catastrophic for the cyclist.
I'm reasonably sure that cyclists are at more risk of an off from non-motor-vehicle causes - poor surfaces (including ice, diesel, gravel, chutney etc), wildlife (including lemming pedestrians and insect attacks), mechanical failure, their own incompetence and so on, but the consequences are usually less severe.
My own collection of scars would certainly support this theory.
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During years of walking from station to work in London and back, along which route there are numerous cyclists, I have never seen a cyclist hit by a car, but on several occasions, collisions with unthinking pedestrians.
Yep, the areas near stations are bad for this, especially in the morning when people are rushing for their trains.
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And tourist areas - Westminster Bridge on a sunny afternoon like it is today will be horrendous later. Even worse if we get a sustained, proper summer. I tend to divert via Lambeth Bridge at those times.
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Yes - Parliament Square is lemming central.
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I hope the knee's doing OK. Just walking away does seem bizarre.
To add to the anecdata, I've been hit by a bike as a pedestrian. (Bike was going against a red light / the wrong way (a while ago, I forget exactly) on a crossing in Shepherds Bush that is designed so that you don't know quite where the danger is coming from at the best of times. We were both OK.)
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Since the last time I cycled down the Lea Bridge Road end of Hoe Street some genius has put in a road-narrowing scheme and wide cycle path, the latter at pavement level. Wouldn't be as much of a problem if it didn't pass behind a bus stop. Lemmings disembark from the bus without a care in the world and wander blithely into the bike path without due care, attention or diverting their gaze away from their fucking phones. Bonus points to tonight's twat du jour who, in addition to getting off the bus and walking along the bike path with his back to the oncoming Larrington, also deployed a Yorkshire Terrier on an extendible lead :facepalm:
Also, bloke on the way home: if me and the Towpath Bike run into you at 15mph then dropping your chips will be the least of your problems.
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Yes - Parliament Square is lemming central.
Not helped by the fact that one of the desire lines is to go from the centre of the square to Whitehall, north side, so that you can walk along past 10 Downing Street and Horseguards, which doesn't actually have a proper crossing. So all the peds (all tourists) walk straight through the ASL at the front, in between the bikes, or in front of the ASL (usually quite busy), and three lanes of traffic behind it, just as the traffic light changes. Then all perch on the little bit of kerb where the traffic light is that separates the left filter lane into Whitehall.
The crossings are at the other 3 corners of the square, but on this one - the bottom right corner, as it were, the crossing is at the bottom of Bridge Street, closer to the tube station.
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GWS.
In all my years commuting in the big smog, I missed all the lemmings that stepped out, but my squealing v-brakes gave many peds the fright of the morning, dropped phones, spilled coffee etc :)
Good reason for riding away from the kerp and not turn one's commute into a bum up head down sprint.
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Good reason for riding away from the kerp and not turn one's commute into a bum up head down sprint.
It's a toss-up between being shouted at by peds saying they don't expect you to be riding in the gutter, and being shouted at by motorists saying there's a law that you must stay in the gutter at all times...
But yes, cycling a reasonable distance from the kerb when there are peds about is, on balance, safer.
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But yes, cycling a reasonable distance from the kerb when there are peds about is, on balance, safer.
The flaw in this strategy, as I've ranted about before: Contraflow cycle lanes. They're pretty much engineered to cause lemmingings.
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Since the last time I cycled down the Lea Bridge Road end of Hoe Street some genius has put in a road-narrowing scheme and wide cycle path, the latter at pavement level. Wouldn't be as much of a problem if it didn't pass behind a bus stop. Lemmings disembark from the bus without a care in the world and wander blithely into the bike path without due care, attention or diverting their gaze away from their fucking phones. Bonus points to tonight's twat du jour who, in addition to getting off the bus and walking along the bike path with his back to the oncoming Larrington, also deployed a Yorkshire Terrier on an extendible lead :facepalm:
Also, bloke on the way home: if me and the Towpath Bike run into you at 15mph then dropping your chips will be the least of your problems.
Known as a floating bus stop. Commonly used in Netherlandish cities, therefore promoted by the Holland fetishists here. There are only two near me, one of them — I'm reliably informed by someone who commutes past it — works pretty well. The other, I'm not sure about.
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The flaw in this strategy, as I've ranted about before: Contraflow cycle lanes. They're pretty much engineered to cause lemmingings.
Oh yes my pet hate too. Or lanes within the pedestrianised area, green paint don't make it safe.
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What's the current thinking on AirZound use on the streets of London?
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What's the current thinking on AirZound use on the streets of London?
There are more sociable and endearing ways of communicating with those one shares the road with.
If I'm going to use an airzound, I may as well use a stick.
Or gun.
ETA - Those wearing earphones are unlikely to hear your airzound, when the 'phones are cranked up to 11.
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Advice I was given is: anticipate pedestrians in London will walk out without looking, moderate your speed, ride wide (i.e. give yourself space from things and people), and ALWAYS have your fingers resting on your brake levers.
It's worked for me so far.
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When I was learning to drive in Germany we were warned that "if a dead drunk pedestrian dressed head to foot in black staggers out backwards from between two parked vans on an unlit street and you hit him, you're responsible". 'Tis graven on me 'eart.
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I try to ride wide or slow enough to allow for anyone stepping out at any time, but I've been caught out a couple of times. An outstretched arm has deflected the pedestrian without too much harm to them or myself. The last thing you want is a person contacting your bike.
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What's the current thinking on AirZound use on the streets of London?
About as useless as an AirZound anywhere else. You're better off assuming that all other road users are deaf, blind, distracted and angry until proven otherwise, and ride accordingly.
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Kim has it, again :)
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Floating bus stop, eh? FOREIGN?
(Sinks the Bismarck)
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During years of walking from station to work in London and back, along which route there are numerous cyclists, I have never seen a cyclist hit by a car, but on several occasions, collisions with unthinking pedestrians. It would appear that cyclists are more at risk from peds than from cars, albeit the consequences of collision may be less catastrophic for the cyclist.
I'm reasonably sure that cyclists are at more risk of an off from non-motor-vehicle causes - poor surfaces (including ice, diesel, gravel, chutney etc), wildlife (including lemming pedestrians and insect attacks), mechanical failure, their own incompetence and so on, but the consequences are usually less severe.
My own collection of scars would certainly support this theory.
+1
On my once a month commutes into central London pedestrians can be a danger, particularly those that decide to cross within 10 metres of a traffic light controlled pedestrian crossing but not use the crossing as your attention is on the crossing and not the lummox that steps out between two cars ahead of where you were expecting to stop.
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Floating bus stop, eh? FOREIGN?
(Sinks the Bismarck)
Funny that, this works ik Denmark where peds knows that they need to look before they step out into a cycle lane or road.
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I'm sure floating bus stops would work fine with British pedestrians if the cycle lane looks sufficiently road-like. That may require it to be at least 5m wide, with regular motor traffic.
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Floating bus stop, eh? FOREIGN?
(Sinks the Bismarck)
They're crying out now for some torpedo graffiti. :D
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A pedestrian walked out in front of me today. She was on a pelican* at a crossroads, I had a green light. She walked out when I was already beyond the middle of the junction, not dangerously close but closer than is wise. I think she was totally oblivious of my presence. Bereft of Airzound, I said 'Ting-a-ling' which at least makes me smile, in some silly way.
Similar happened on Sunday, except that time it was a quiet road — possibly a cycle contraflow — in Stratford. And on Monday two blokes started walking across my path as I was winding my way up my hill — one at the bottom, the other at the top — but both stopped when they saw that, laden as I was with four panniers, I wasn't giving up my momentum to anyone without either a flashing blue light or some cake.
I think a large part in this phenomenon is that people cross with their ears, though the current cluster suggests the weather may play a role.
*Google is not playing today, so draw it yourself.
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I think a large part in this phenomenon is that people cross with their ears
This is certainly true on quiet roads. The residential roads I frequent always have people crossing without looking. It doesn't much bother me any more, I'm ready to dodge them.
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Iused the underpass near Sainsbury's this arvo, as it was rush hour and the roundabout above it fills with idiots at this time of day. The cycle path is separated from the footpath by a handy kerb to raise the latter.
Ped walking down the middle of the cycle path txtng? Check. And for balance:
Hi-viz martlehatted cyclist on a fair-to-middling Perfectly Good Gentleman's Mountain Bicycle, on the footpath? Check.
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I think a large part in this phenomenon is that people cross with their ears, though the current cluster suggests the weather may play a role.
Many years ago, on King's Parade in Cambridge, I had a pedestrian cross sort of diagonally, so I was travelling at walking pace behind her.
I put it down to the relative silence of the straight six engine in the car I was driving.
I assume that the Teslas and Nissan Leafs are seeing this problem.
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I think a large part in this phenomenon is that people cross with their ears, though the current cluster suggests the weather may play a role.
Many years ago, on King's Parade in Cambridge, I had a pedestrian cross sort of diagonally, so I was travelling at walking pace behind her.
I put it down to the relative silence of the straight six engine in the car I was driving.
I assume that the Teslas and Nissan Leafs are seeing this problem.
I had a similar incident on US-12 in rural Idaho in a car with a trick exhaust that made a noise like the BBMF above 3000 rpm, so I'm not sure about this Stuffs :-\
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I'm sure floating bus stops would work fine with British pedestrians if the cycle lane looks sufficiently road-like. That may require it to be at least 5m wide, with regular motor traffic.
The ones in Brighton have a kerb to step down from the bus stop and are becoming quite widely used, particularly on routes with heavy cycle traffic (that'd be the flat roads). I don't cycle into the city much these days, but from what I've seen they work better than I expected.
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I think a large part in this phenomenon is that people cross with their ears, though the current cluster suggests the weather may play a role.
Many years ago, on King's Parade in Cambridge, I had a pedestrian cross sort of diagonally, so I was travelling at walking pace behind her.
I put it down to the relative silence of the straight six engine in the car I was driving.
I assume that the Teslas and Nissan Leafs are seeing this problem.
ISTHH that as from <near future date - this year?> all leccy cars (in EU at least — and that means it will become default for a lot of the rest of the world too) will have to artificially generate some sort of noise because of this.
So we balls up the chance of reducing noise pollution.
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I can hear the tyre noise from even a slow moving car on a quiet road. 15mph+ anyway.
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IIRC the Leaf's gentle wooshing noise generator only works below 20mph (unless you turn it off). On the two occasions a known electric car has passed me at speed on a quiet road, the sound has been little different to that of a modern ICE car in a cruising gear (that is, almost entirely tyre noise).
So it seems that Nissan have got it pretty much right, other than the whole arms race aspect.
What the wooshing noise generator doesn't do is make a sound when the car is idle. Which is equivalent to an ICE car that automatically stops the engine. Which I'm sure is also confusing to visually impaired road-crossers.
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AIUI under new regs you won't have the option to turn it off. Don't know if it mandates a particular level of noise or is in any way connected to speed.
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During years of walking from station to work in London and back, along which route there are numerous cyclists, I have never seen a cyclist hit by a car, but on several occasions, collisions with unthinking pedestrians. It would appear that cyclists are more at risk from peds than from cars, albeit the consequences of collision may be less catastrophic for the cyclist.
I'm reasonably sure that cyclists are at more risk of an off from non-motor-vehicle causes - poor surfaces (including ice, diesel, gravel, chutney etc), wildlife (including lemming pedestrians and insect attacks), mechanical failure, their own incompetence and so on, but the consequences are usually less severe.
My own collection of scars would certainly support this theory.
My worst crash would support your theory (a mixture of bad luck, road camber, weather and not enough competence at high speeds; no-one else involved).
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Advice I was given is: anticipate pedestrians in London will walk out without looking, moderate your speed, ride wide (i.e. give yourself space from things and people), and ALWAYS have your fingers resting on your brake levers.
It's worked for me so far.
Ah but sometimes there's no accounting for lemmings. I once had one run from the right hand side of the road to get under my wheel. I was to the right of a stationary line of traffic, saw her, assumed she wouldn't try to cross a lane of moving traffic and so concentrated on the greater risk (in my mind) of cars deciding to u-turn, peds coming through gaps in the stationary traffic etc. Next thing I knew she was right in front of me with nowhere for me to go. Picked myself up, picked her up, checked she was ok and then walked her the 50 yards or so to her house and called her friend for her. A few people asked if we were ok which was nice but no one else was prepared to walk her to her house
Apparently, despite the fact I'm not the smallest person in the world, she had only seen the bus further down the traffic queue behind me and not registered me at all.
What was worse for me is that it was only a week after cracking a couple of ribs on the famous Emsworth FNRttC and my doc had told me not to cycle. As I picked myself up and felt some new pains all I could do was run through a conversation in my head that started "Doc I know you told me not to cycle but......"
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Without having any accurate figures I'd say that about 1/3 of all pedestrians start to take an initial step off the kerb before looking if anything is coming.
The increase in Electric vehicles should hopefully provide some form of Darwinian-related decrease in such behaviour.
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Over 50 years ago we had trolleybuses, I don't recall people stepping out in front of them particularly.
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It would tend to be a once in a lifetime experience....
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I think a large part in this phenomenon is that people cross with their ears, though the current cluster suggests the weather may play a role.
Many years ago, on King's Parade in Cambridge, I had a pedestrian cross sort of diagonally, so I was travelling at walking pace behind her.
I put it down to the relative silence of the straight six engine in the car I was driving.
I assume that the Teslas and Nissan Leafs are seeing this problem.
ISTHH that as from <near future date - this year?> all leccy cars (in EU at least — and that means it will become default for a lot of the rest of the world too) will have to artificially generate some sort of noise because of this.
So we balls up the chance of reducing noise pollution.
In my experience the number of pedestrians who use sound as their only sense before crossing the road is frightening (not even a slight glance at the road before they launch across) - I favour nice clicky freehubs for that reason - I get quite a few comments about my noisy freehub from fellow cyclists on audax rides but if saves me a crash with a lemming it's something I'm quite happy to put up with. It's a bit annoying when approaching horses though as you need to pedal to be quiet which doesn't really help being slow also.
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I boggle at the number of deaf/HOH people who claim they can't cross roads safely.... I prefer to travel hearing aid out when walking in public. I'm generally safer not having partial distorted nonsensical sound than I am having nothing, I use my EYES, they're dead good are eyes, even mine with their dodgy visual processing of moving objects!
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Even in cycling utopia of Holland bikes & pedestrians frequently clash. Less likely with cars & bikes as they are more separated.
On holiday yesterday I parked my Brompton in a shoping centre in the suburbs of Veenendaal. Then walked to the ATM as a group of teenagers, six abreast, eating a pack of fresh donuts between them, rode into the crowd taking out another cyclist, & pushed me into the wall of Rabobank.
Cycling without due care & attention.
Despite the cycling credentials of the bank there was a lot of shouting from the staff.
At first I heard my self saying sorry, then I started shouting loud Anglo Saxon epithets as I picked myself up off the floor.
The group escaped by riding up onto the station platform.
Strangely no-one seemed bothered, even the Dutch lady cyclist who was toppled by the group.
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When I was learning to drive in Germany we were warned that "if a dead drunk pedestrian dressed head to foot in black staggers out backwards from between two parked vans on an unlit street and you hit him, you're responsible". 'Tis graven on me 'eart.
Which is exactly how it should be - and why we need to introduce presumed liablity into the UK. This means it is the responsiblitiy of the driver (or in this case cyclist) to ensure they operate their vehicle safely and can stop within the distance they can see to be clear and not blindly expect everybody else to keep out of their way.
Pedestrians move slowly - and if one appears to materialise suddenly in your path then then that is entirely due to you attempting to ride too fast and too close to them. We rightly expect drivers to overtake us with care and leave us sufficient space to swerve to avoid unexpected objects or to fall off - we need to excercise the same care when we are passing more vulnerable users than ourselves.
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Pedestrians move slowly - and if one appears to materialise suddenly in your path then then that is entirely due to you attempting to ride too fast and too close to them. We rightly expect drivers to overtake us with care and leave us sufficient space to swerve to avoid unexpected objects or to fall off - we need to excercise the same care when we are passing more vulnerable users than ourselves.
Unfortunately this isn't always the case. Having been in a car when a small child sprinted out from between two parked cars it was horrifying just how suddenly he appeared. The solid line of parked cars and his lack of height meant we had no idea there were any kids playing on the pavement. Because it was a narrow residential road with lots of parked cars mercifully we were only doing about 20mph, despite the 30mph limit, so we managed to screech to a stop just in time.
My friend who was driving had to pull over and take 10 minutes to pull himself together because of how close a shave it had been.
Admittedly this was partly bad luck. If we had set out 10 seconds later then the child running out would have been sufficiently far in front of us that we could have stopped without worry. But by the same token, if we had set off a second earlier then I don't think we could have avoided hitting him.
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Not sure I agree with that. If you cannot see if there is a kid about to run out that does not mean that there isn't.
Maybe if a kid jumped out of a first floor window into your path, but not appearing from a pavement on a residential road.
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If you can't see something is not there/jumping out - assume it is. Drive/cycle accordingly.
Its not rocket science.
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Bugger. Riding home tonight (at a moderate speed) a woman stepped off the pavement right in front of me without looking. I braked and went over the handlebars. I ended up on the floor and, despite the fact that I had collided with her - she broke my fall! - she just walked away. A couple of lads came to ask if I was all right, and a couple of cars stopped to check if I needed help. Fortunately, I seem to have just bruised an elbow and wrenched my knee - but here's the thing, it was the knee I had replaced just a couple of months ago. Lots of ice this evening and more of the same over the next few days are in order, I reckon. Could have been a lot worse.
Still shaken, but feeling lucky, and amazed that she could just walk away like that without even turning around to see if I was all right.
Hi Rob - only just read this :(. Are you OK?
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Bikesdontfloat and Jaded's posts above got me thinking about last nights close call.
That was one rainy commute!
At Bank, a chap crossing the road commented "solid beard, very solid mate" :smug:
I had a good run to London Bridge, just after the station I tested the limits of Brompton brakes in the wet. A chap on a hybrid looked comfortably stationary and not intending to pull out to the right. I was approaching quite fast, spotted him and scrubbed a little speed off. With about 2 metres to go, still without a single glance over his shoulder, he pulled away. Que the classic 'whoa-whoa-whoa!' much braking effort and not much braking result! I bumped him very gently, he apologised and neither of us actually quite stopped rolling.
I was off my game for the rest of the journey and hit a few manhole covers. Not something I'd normally make a habit of, especially in the wet.
Ive done a bit of playing around with a speed-distance-time calculator, and found that something is wrong with my memory off it.
I know that I was riding at 9mph after scrubbing a little speed off and I still had my fingers on the brake levers and that I was dragging the brakes lightly.
My estimate of 2.5 metres can't be correct. :-\
If we are generous regarding my reaction time by calling it 1sec as I was fully prepared to drop the anchors, he must have pulled out when I was at least 8 metres away.
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My estimate of 2.5 metres can't be correct. :-\
If we are generous regarding my reaction time by calling it 1sec as I was fully prepared to drop the anchors, he must have pulled out when I was at least 8 metres away.
I bet it felt like 2.5m though - or even 1.5 ...
Pedestrians move slowly - and if one appears to materialise suddenly in your path then then that is entirely due to you attempting to ride too fast and too close to them. We rightly expect drivers to overtake us with care and leave us sufficient space to swerve to avoid unexpected objects or to fall off - we need to excercise the same care when we are passing more vulnerable users than ourselves.
If you can't see something is not there/jumping out - assume it is. Drive/cycle accordingly.
Drive like that on your test though, and your "failure to make progress" will ensure a fail. So instructors instruct you to make progress. So making progress becomes ingrained.
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Bugger. Riding home tonight (at a moderate speed) a woman stepped off the pavement right in front of me without looking. I braked and went over the handlebars. I ended up on the floor and, despite the fact that I had collided with her - she broke my fall! - she just walked away. A couple of lads came to ask if I was all right, and a couple of cars stopped to check if I needed help. Fortunately, I seem to have just bruised an elbow and wrenched my knee - but here's the thing, it was the knee I had replaced just a couple of months ago. Lots of ice this evening and more of the same over the next few days are in order, I reckon. Could have been a lot worse.
Still shaken, but feeling lucky, and amazed that she could just walk away like that without even turning around to see if I was all right.
Hi Rob - only just read this :(. Are you OK?
Hi Julia, I think I was more shaken up by it than anything physical. The elbow was sore for a day or so but the knee seems OK.
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Ive done a bit of playing around with a speed-distance-time calculator, and found that something is wrong with my memory off it.
I know that I was riding at 9mph after scrubbing a little speed off and I still had my fingers on the brake levers and that I was dragging the brakes lightly.
My estimate of 2.5 metres can't be correct. :-\
If we are generous regarding my reaction time by calling it 1sec as I was fully prepared to drop the anchors, he must have pulled out when I was at least 8 metres away.
The highway code assumes 0.675 s reaction time. I think that includes the time taken to release accelerator and press the brake. If you were already dragging the brakes, and you had already considered the possibility of him pulling out I would guess around 0.3 s.
9 mph is 4 m/s, so that would only be 1.2 m
I would estimate 0.5 g stopping. Cars can manage about 1 g, and the highway code allows for 0.67g.
From 4 m/s, the distance would be 1.5 m at 0.5 g
Total would be 2.7 m
Obviously that figure is heavily dependent on the estimates for reaction time and deceleration, and the accuracy of the speed recorded.
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0.5g sounds optimistic for stock Brompton brakes in the wet. Even with the post-2013 levers. That said, if he was already dragging them, the rims may have cleared.
(I fitted mine with Kool Stop Salmons. Much improvement in wet weather performance, though it still stops like a Brompton.)
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I feel that a Brompton deceleration test is in order. I need to molish a acceleration logger.
I don't have much confidence in my estimate of 0.5 g, and I wouldn't be surprised if best deceleration was a quite a bit worse.
However, 8 m for reaction and stopping from 9 mph looks very unlikely. It would need the deceleration to be only 0.11 g, and I would think that a Brompton could do significantly better than that.
If the deceleration were 0.11 g, the time from 9 mph to stationary would be around 3.5 seconds, and even in the wet I am sure I can do a lot better than that on my Brompton.
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It is fairly easy to lift a Brommie back wheel under braking (with decent hand strength), so 0.5G isn't too hard to achieve.
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I had a bloke walk across a narrow street in front of me this morning, from left to right. He didn't look in either direction but was I was going slow enough (up hill) that it didn't matter. Except when he was 2/3 of the way across, he then turned round and went back, still not looking. Still wouldn't have been too much of a problem — except of course it's raining and the huge umbrella he was carrying effectively blocked the whole available width, parked car to parked car, of the narrow street.
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I feel that a Brompton deceleration test is in order.
I tried this unscientifically a few of times on yesterday's ride. Bromptom with damp rims from a convenient puddle, travelling at 9mph on drying road. 2014 brake levers, Kool Stop salmon pads. Mk 1 Kim grabbing as much front brake as possible (While on a good day I can apply a gripping force of at least 25kg[1] with my right hand, the ergonomics are very much the weak point in this setup - I find the levers hard to reach, as the fold necessitates they point almost vertically downwards, and there's a lump of twist shifter in the way).
It would consistently stop in about two bike lengths. At no point could I lift the rear wheel.
[1] According to barakta's physioterrorist's grip meter, which approximates a 4-finger MTB brake lever. I didn't pick the units.
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My centre of gravity is higher, helping with applying lever force and worsening pitch-over. Lifting a Brommie rear wheel isn't too tough, albeit it means pulling hard.
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I will say that turning out of my drive and down the 25% hill on the Brompton generally ensures that it's not just the brake levers that are being clenched.
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I've done a couple of double-chevron descents on the Brommie. Very carefully. Hand cramps were involved at the bottom of one of them.
That said, it's at least as good at stopping as the low-end mountain bikes I used to ride as a kid. I've just been spoiled by bikes with discs and well-adjusted V-brakes.
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Aye, Lady Bertie doesn't stop with the same kind of enthusiasm that Spesh does. Although Spesh's front rotor is almost the same size a Brommie wheel :P Also, i'm not all that sure how much I'd like to see how much the stem would flex under the force of proper brakes.
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If you can't see something is not there/jumping out - assume it is. Drive/cycle accordingly.
Its not rocket science.
Darn right - if we'da thought like that, we werent ever gonna git to the moon!
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That proves Apollo 11 was a fake. Brakes were crap in the 60s.