Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Further and Faster => Topic started by: ramchip on 28 January, 2016, 11:15:29 am
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Really struggling with gels as they seem to rot my stomach. Keep finding myself getting close to bonking on long rides so I end up having to stop and have some real food. I would like to have “real” food that I can eat on the bike. What are you fuelling with?
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dried bananas
dates (compressed blocks of cooking dates, destoned)
nuts
pre-packaged nut/seed bars - 9 bars, NAKD bars etc
pies
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Try going LCHF. plenty of info on the health section
I am sure one of the experts will be along soon (Chris S, fboab)
I can now happily do 100k fasted but have lacked time to go further recently
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O, I'm not LCHF at the moment. Carb dependant sugar thing, me. I can only do LCHF if I haven't got much else to worry about, and I've far too much Real Life going on.
Real food is pretty much what most people will recommend- I don't really ever eat on the bike. Even now, when I'm all over the chocolate, I can make it to a stop before I shovel it in.
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(http://img.tesco.com/Groceries/pi/088/5000295144088/IDShot_540x540.jpg)
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Try going LCHF. plenty of info on the health section
I am sure one of the experts will be along soon (Chris S, fboab)
I can now happily do 100k fasted but have lacked time to go further recently
I'd second that. I'm lchf, typically sub-50g carbs per day, last time I did 70k on the bike that went up to about 90 for the day. Note all my choices above are low GI.
I find 50g OK for general living and midweek 1 hour or so sessions, but need to up it a bit for longer. As a type 1 diabetic it gives me better controlled more stable flood sugars, though I always carry bonk rations. Bonk being potentially life threatening, not just slightly inconvenient these days.
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Pork pies for me.
Don't do gels or any of that muck anymore. Pointless unless racing.
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Malt loaf.
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Tesco granola tray bake cut into squares and put in a zip seal bag. The stuff seems to be edible for a looooooooong time after you've forgot its in your luggage, quite possibly until the sun goes nova. Can't be good for you but it works for me.
Carry some jelly babies / haribos for emergencies.
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Shot blocks or Cliff bars.
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(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j433/Lighthorse2/lw-pizza-challenge_zpsqsrcih7c.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Lighthorse2/media/lw-pizza-challenge_zpsqsrcih7c.jpg.html)
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what sort of distance are we talking of. I'm on a LCHF regime, and I can easily ride 60-70km before breakfast, and not even feel hungry. Ok I'm not fast (prob avg 21km/hr ish) but this riding fasted took a wee while to get used to, but now, if I have a breakfast, then ride , I feel sluggish and tired. Often I'll do 60-70, get back and miss breaky altogether, and have a brunch instead.
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Thanks for all the replies. I have tried LCHF but it was not for me. I'm fine with distances up to 80K but start to struggle around the 100K mark. Gels are just upseting my stomach as does malt loaf for some reason? At the moment my rides are around 160k but I want to start increasing my ride distance so I can ride 320k+. Looks like experimenting with oats, nuts and dried fruit would be a good starting point.
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When I was doing the miles sometimes on a 300k I would have a couple of full English breakfasts. Other foods would be for instance a Cornish pastie, pork pies, beer, raisins, bananas, sandwiches, malt loaf, apple pie & custard, cakes, Mars bars & the like & always washed down with maltodextrin carb solution. Towards the end of a 300k a can of coke & say 2 Belgium buns would go down a treat.
Gels & milkshakes have always been like poison to my stomach.
Strange that a couple of milkshakes the next day used to work as a recovery drink, but not when cycling. Now I'm older milk is a definite no even the day after.
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Completed a couple of centuries without gels, just with real food. Oatmeal Balls, small boiled potatoes rolled in Olive Oil and Sea Salt with just a little cheese plus a homemade Scotch Egg seems to get me nicely through a century. :-)
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This might be a bit radical but what about a sandwich?
Gels are for emergencies only, in my opinion, but should be carried regardless. Small soft rolls cut into half with whatever you want inside, and snacked in every 30 minutes. Dried fruit etc are fine, but are still high in sugar and will upset your tummy eventually.
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This might be a bit radical but what about a sandwich?
Gels are for emergencies only, in my opinion, but should be carried regardless. Small soft rolls cut into half with whatever you want inside, and snacked in every 30 minutes. Dried fruit etc are fine, but are still high in sugar and will upset your tummy eventually.
Not universally popular, but for long runs (being all day on the Cumbrian fells) I used to break out sardine sandwiches half way through
Seemed perfect to me, if not my companions
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Sandwiches are GOOD.
You'll have to experiment with what suits you best.
I believe it was jam for Graeme Obree but other people like peanut butter or ham or cheese.
I like teacakes (yeasty buns).
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Sandwiches are GOOD.
You'll have to experiment with what suits you best.
I believe it was jam for Graeme Obree but other people like peanut butter or ham or cheese.
I like teacakes (yeasty buns).
Oh yeah, peanut butter and banana/jam bagels are a fave of mine at the minute too.
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Ginger nut biscuits.
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You might struggle finding them for a bit. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35482789)
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Thanks, better stock up....
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Gingerbread, mini-salami, dried banana. I used to carry crystallized ginger too - eaten together with a bit of salami it tastes wonderful. Bad for teeth, though.
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Thanks for all the replies. I have tried LCHF but it was not for me. I'm fine with distances up to 80K but start to struggle around the 100K mark. Gels are just upseting my stomach as does malt loaf for some reason? At the moment my rides are around 160k but I want to start increasing my ride distance so I can ride 320k+. Looks like experimenting with oats, nuts and dried fruit would be a good starting point.
You don't need to eat LCHF to ride fasted.
If you start with short fasted rides you'll stress your body and force and adaptation where it'll use fat more for fuel. You can increase distance it time.
When you do a longer ride you'll need less food over course of day (you'll just eat it later after you stop). On recent 320km ride my heat rate averaged 63% max (including stops) and while I probably burned circa 7000 calories I consumed in range of 1500-2000 calories ( Icounted accurately for 400km at 2000 calories and it's a very consistent pattern on long rides).
Within 3 months of fasted training rides I was doing 100km with 1000m climbing at 25- 27km/h and feeling fine. It took about two years to get to doing 300/400km rides fasted and using the calories outlined above.
When I eat, it is always of the following list apples, chocolate milk(hydrating and contains sugar with some protein and a little fat), nuts, meat/cheese sandwich, a little chocolate and if tired can of coke 30/40km from home.
Digestion and exercise put demands on different hormonal system, one which call for blood in muscles the other in stomach/gut. Two both together is never easy and some people find it harder than others. Gels on long rides are not a clever option and cause many people trouble.
Given convenience food is primarily junk, try homemade flapjack type foods, you can use oats, dried fruit, seeds, crushed almond the options are endless; mainly carbs but with some protein and fat. You can make in small bite sizes and nibble as needed
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Disagree on gels I'm afraid.
I've used gels and bars as support food on audax for the last 3-4 years. I fill a top tube bag with them and snack every 10-20k. this means I need to eat less at the controls, wasting less time off the bike.
On a 12hr time trial I take on 60g carb/hr. My racing weight is circa 68kg so the rue of 1g carb per hour per kg roughly works for me. This consists of one energy bar (cut in half) and one gel (I use Torq as they seem to have the highest bang for buck of g carb per item). I can ride a 100m TT entirely on gels, using 6-7 over 4hrs. It's a little bit of a weird feeling as your belly rumbles telling you you're hungry but you still feel like you have enough energy to hammer it.
The main thing I wound with gels was to make sure you take on enough water at the same time. I don't use energy drink but have half a nuun tablet per bottle.
I use the same gels and bars all year round for my longer training rides to make sure that my body is accustomed to them. I save chocolate milk, nuts and other protein based foods for recovery only.
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Gels are great for racing but they're a pretty expensive and tooth-rotting source of fuel for normal riding. To the OP: how fast do you go? If your heart rate is ~150+, nothing beats a gel for getting energy into your system without having to slow down to digest. However, if you're going a bit slower you can afford to eat other food. Good foods are carb-rich and easily portable, and preferably easily obtainable when on the road. Examples include bananas (which also contain a lot of water so go down well), snickers bars, fig rolls, nutri grain bars - or other energy bars, but I don't cope well with the drier cereal bars.
I use Torq as they seem to have the highest bang for buck of g carb per item
Zipvit gels, surely? They have 51g carbs to the 30g in Torq gels. As for the tummy rumbling effect, I tend to do 3:1 gels to energy bars (Zipvit ZV8 - and no, I'm not sponsored by Zipvit) to give a bit of substance for my stomach to work on.
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I use Torq as they seem to have the highest bang for buck of g carb per item
Zipvit gels, surely? They have 51g carbs to the 30g in Torq gels. As for the tummy rumbling effect, I tend to do 3:1 gels to energy bars (Zipvit ZV8 - and no, I'm not sponsored by Zipvit) to give a bit of substance for my stomach to work on.
Oh. Need to look at those.
One Torq bar and one gel gives me 60g. I used to use Hi-5 but they had less grammes and were mostly fructose so I found I got a good sugar kick but it wasn't sustained. With Torq using maltodextrin and fructose I found a more sustained release worked on the longer distances.
My club have a deal with one of the newer nutrition suppliers so I should probably look at their stuff as well.
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I thought the OP didn't get on with gels...
TEA & CAKE are great if you have them sitting down in a nice place. Cake's pretty good for fast fuelling too.
Different people favour different cakes.
Enjoy experimenting!
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Yeah, that's why i was recommending other foods!
Gels have only two uses IMO:
1) Racing
2) Bonk rations
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I thought the OP didn't get on with gels...
Yeah, sorry.
For me, I started using gels when I returned to racing and found that they gave me an advantage on audax rides and long training runs. My body runs much better on little and often rather than big feeds on rides.
The thing with gels and any sports food is to experiment with how you use them. I struggled with carb drinks early on as I was mixing them at the recommended strength which upset my digestion. Further reading taught me to mix them half strength as they were easier to digest. From my experience gels are similar - you need to measure how often you use them and make sure you hydrate correctly at the same time. Just because you get an upset stomach on a ride doesn't mean that it's what you've taken on that is causing it but sometimes the way you take it on and how you combine it with other feeding.
Rather than offer an alternative I would suggest not giving up completely on sports food until you've tried a few combinations and manufacturers.
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Jelly babies/liquorice allsorts washed down with lots of water for emergencies IF you like them.
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An extreme example of how little food is necessary for ultra running, an event which makes audax look like a Sunday stroll!
This guy wasn't making up the numbers but winning
https://eoinkeith.wordpress.com/2016/01/29/the-spine-race-2016-nutriton/
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An extreme example of how little food is necessary for ultra running, an event which makes audax look like a Sunday stroll!
This guy wasn't making up the numbers but winning
https://eoinkeith.wordpress.com/2016/01/29/the-spine-race-2016-nutriton/
Made me hungry reading that.
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Gels make me want to barf but I usually have one on me for dire emergencies. I like shot bloks if you want "sports" nutrition but prefer jelly babies until I get to that point where I am sick of sweet stuff. Then something savoury and cheesy suits best. Or dry roasted nuts and a shandy!
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Jam doughnuts. 10 for £1.
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Ring doughnuts are less messy, and you can carry them on tri-bars.
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Pork pies for me.
Don't do gels or any of that muck anymore. Pointless unless racing.
Mini pack of 6 work great, each one just the right size for a snack.
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(http://img.tesco.com/Groceries/pi/088/5000295144088/IDShot_540x540.jpg)
I like the taste, but not so much the after effects :-\
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(http://img.tesco.com/Groceries/pi/088/5000295144088/IDShot_540x540.jpg)
I like the taste, but not so much the after effects :-\
Are you lactose intolerant?
Quite a few people are and suffer for AGES before anyone twigs they have a problem, or what the problem might be.
My Mum persuaded my sister to cut out all dairy bar lacto-free milk for a few days and sister felt TONS better as a result.
Mum is wise.
Mum always knows best.
Mum has a lactose intolerant husband and two lactose-intolerant daughters...
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Also, there are surprisingly few calories in Frijj.
What I find it is good for is stimulating hunger when you've been riding for a while and don't want to eat.
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To wash down my jam doughnuts I quite like those chocolate milks they sell in petrol stations.
I hasten to add that this is my long ride diet not my daily sustenance.
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Also, there are surprisingly few calories in Frijj.
What I find it is good for is stimulating hunger when you've been riding for a while and don't want to eat.
Frij and the like are good as they are wet.
370kcal for a 471ml bottle you can down in a minute seems fair. It's more than a Mars bar.
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370kcal for a 471ml bottle you can down in a minute seems fair. It's more than a Mars bar.
Ah, I must have been reading the per 100ml value or something. Probably while tired on some bike ride or other.
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The Sainsbury's wibble (my usual source of information) only quotes values per 100ml.
I think that's misleading without misinforming IYSWIM.
Frijj are on Special Offer at Sainsbury's right now: 2 471ml bottles for £2 (cf £1.30 per bottle)
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An extreme example of how little food is necessary for ultra running, an event which makes audax look like a Sunday stroll!
This guy wasn't making up the numbers but winning
https://eoinkeith.wordpress.com/2016/01/29/the-spine-race-2016-nutriton/
This is SUCH a good read for those riders brought up in The Church of Glycogen (and I probably was one!).
You only need to shovel carbs in constantly if that's what you've trained your body to need. The rate we burn calories on 99% of rides completed by YACFers is far below the rate that sugar consumption provides:
- real food is good
- fat is great fuel.
- stay off the sugar and refined carbs!
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An extreme example of how little food is necessary for ultra running, an event which makes audax look like a Sunday stroll!
This guy wasn't making up the numbers but winning
https://eoinkeith.wordpress.com/2016/01/29/the-spine-race-2016-nutriton/
This is SUCH a good read for those riders brought up in The Church of Glycogen (and I probably was one!).
You only need to shovel carbs in constantly if that's what you've trained your body to need. The rate we burn calories on 99% of rides completed by YACFers is far below the rate that sugar consumption provides:
- real food is good
- fat is great fuel.
- stay off the sugar and refined carbs!
i agree with all of this. it's the abundance of refined carbs, convenience of eating them, fast digestion and almost instant energy delivery that makes them so hard to resist.
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Well I have now completed 4 x 160kms; all fuelled with REAL food and the difference in my performance has been immense. I’m finishing my rides without major fatigue plus I feel must fresher after the ride especially the next day. Looks like for the last couple of years my fuelling has been completely wrong. Thanks for all the advice.
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Nougat.
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Well I have now completed 4 x 160kms; all fuelled with REAL food and the difference in my performance has been immense. I’m finishing my rides without major fatigue plus I feel must fresher after the ride especially the next day. Looks like for the last couple of years my fuelling has been completely wrong. Thanks for all the advice.
You've completed 4 x 160 kms since your original post? In British weather? If so, whatever you've eaten obviously works - Bravo!
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Well I have now completed 4 x 160kms; all fuelled with REAL food and the difference in my performance has been immense. I’m finishing my rides without major fatigue plus I feel must fresher after the ride especially the next day. Looks like for the last couple of years my fuelling has been completely wrong. Thanks for all the advice.
You've completed 4 x 160 kms since your original post? In British weather? If so, whatever you've eaten obviously works - Bravo!
I live in South East Spain :-)
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Ah, I see! All the same, it does seem that kicking the gel habit was a good thing. Enjoy the sunshine - it's tipping down in Yorkshire :(
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If you ever forget what to eat on a bike ride, remember,,,
"The word 'bike' is constructed with the first two letters of 'biscuit' and the last two letters of 'cake'."
Easy.
Now there's no need to continue this thread, :thumbsup:
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Much though I love cakes and biscuits, there might well be a point when the thought makes you :sick:
Eat what you crave and can get.
Always eat as soon as you get a puncture or other mechanical issue (unless you have just left a control).
It might be the last time you have clean hands.
Your mind works best when your blood sugar is not in your boots.
Food is absorbed better when you are not exerting yourself.
I know I've said this before...
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Should I eat the punctured tube ???
;)
As a BTW, one Digestive biscuit of 80 cals can get a cyclist along for ten miles. The remaining energy requirement is taken from lipids. On a 300km, less than one large pack of McV’s Digestives will suffice.
One bickie every 15 km.
Milk in one’s bidon is best for night-time riding, but beware you don’t fall asleep at the handlebars.
;D
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Aren't half the calories in McV's digestives from fat?
Will look it up...
Well, only 39% calories from fat...
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Aren't half the calories in McV's digestives from fat?
Will look it up...
Well, only 39% calories from fat...
Digestive biscuit, smothered with pate de foie gras.
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Aren't half the calories in McV's digestives from fat?
Will look it up...
Well, only 39% calories from fat...
Digestive biscuit, smothered with pate de foie gras.
39% Calories from fat is your DULL, dry, uncoated McVitie's Digestive.
In other news these have a lower sugar percentage by weight than All-Bran.
There again, they both taste of cardboard...
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But don't forget, a well trained long distance cyclist ( or ice sled pusher ) is fuelled mostly by fats.
At the intesnsity of yor regular Audax event, more than 75% of energy rquirements prob come from lipids and lipolysis.
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But don't forget, a well trained long distance cyclist ( or ice sled pusher ) is fuelled mostly by fats.
At the intesnsity of yor regular Audax event, more than 75% of energy rquirements prob come from lipids and lipolysis.
I wish that had been true for me when I was cyclin BIG distances.
It never was if I wanted to complete events in time.
I tried.
I failed.
I ate.
Mostly carbs.
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If it's any help, at the weekend I rode 120 miles, on a fairly hilly route, with a stop at 56 miles. The lunch stop was wind and gravity neutral (if anything there was slightly more climbing and headwind in the second half. Average speed for the return was 0.5mph faster than the outward section, so it can only be down to what I had for lunch....
Cheese & Ham toastie plus salad
Coffee & Walnut cake
Large black Americano
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Should I eat the punctured tube ???
;)
As a BTW, one Digestive biscuit of 80 cals can get a cyclist along for ten miles. The remaining energy requirement is taken from lipids. On a 300km, less than one large pack of McV’s Digestives will suffice.
One bickie every 15 km.
Milk in one’s bidon is best for night-time riding, but beware you don’t fall asleep at the handlebars.
;D
I won't be falling asleep, I'll be vomiting all over the handlebars, and anyone lucky enough to be in the vicinity.
I'll stick to my zero or nuun, failing that a large coffee.
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"One man's meat,,,".
I rode the Two Battles 200 on a Big Johns 20" pizza with all the meats.
In fact, I gained fat weight that weekend, so I went for a 10 mile run ( jogging ) on the Monday evening to shift the fat I'd laid down.
Some of the other riders were slurping pink coloured energy drinks out of Bidons they carried with them. I don't take bidons. I stop for coffee.
"...is another man's poison."
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I'm doing some very low intensity "training" (it's so low intensity, I hesitate to call it "training") which includes a long fasted weekend ride; in conjunction with a very low carb diet - less than 50g a day.
Last Sunday, I managed 102km completely fasted, around where we're going to be living very shortly (and where even the flat bits have hills - at least, for this flatlander's legs) without any energy issues. Sure I was VERY ready to eat by the time I finished, but I didn't need any carbs (tea was cheese, chicken, ham and a fruit salad at Wetherby services - classy) and energy flow and focus was easily good enough for me to drive 300 miles back south in shitty weather, without any problems whatsoever.
Get the fat burning right - and you simply don't need to worry about food. Or digestive issues during a ride, because you're trying/having to force food in. But to get it this useful, you have to follow what most people would regard as a really unbalanced diet (75% fat, 20% protein, 5% carbs). No bread (no grains of any kind) and no sugar except small incidental amounts in fruit.
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Get the fat burning right - and you simply don't need to worry about food. Or digestive issues during a ride, because you're trying/having to force food in. But to get it this useful, you have to follow what most people would regard as a really unbalanced diet (75% fat, 20% protein, 5% carbs). No bread (no grains of any kind) and no sugar except small incidental amounts in fruit.
Sorry to disagree but you don't have to restrict carbs to that extent to run primarily on fat.
I eat at least 5/6 portions of fruit daily with no restrictions on veg type of quantity and can easily do 100km with 1000m climbing fasted and have gone up to 150km completely fasted.
You can force the necessary adaptation by eliminating junk carb/high gi with fasted training.
Right now I'm eating circa 100g of carb daily, as I'm doing a block of weight training, and I did a 113km ride Sunday at 25km/h. I'm normally a little faster but my issue was fatigue from heavy stuff rather than food, or lack thereof.
Given how restricted a ketogenic diet is (especially in the modem world) along with how the body down regulates its ability to use glycogen (and hence power loss) I'm not sure it's the best strategy for audax.
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http://sigmanutrition.com/episode86/
This is excellent
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I don't find a ketogenic diet at all restrictive.
I'm eating more veggies than I used to. Instead of deriving bulk from cheap nasty refined carbs, the voluminous veggies now suffice.
Normal days c.50g carbs is absolutely sufficient with that being deived from root veggies, fruit, oatcakes in place of bread or crackers. Fats and proteins from a wide variety of meat/white fish/oily fish/soya/quorn/eggs/beans
My concession is a slight hybrid approach on longer rides where for other reasons, I end up needing to consume small amounts of carbs, typically 20-30g/hr of activity, whereas the classical approach would have you taking consuming c.100g/hr at my typical running and riding paces, which I can't see anyone replacing ta that rate without serious stomach issues.
I still use a few gels, hardly ever use liquid carbs, these days tend to use fruit/nut/flapjacky/oaty things as lower GI.
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I don't find a ketogenic diet at all restrictive.
I'm eating more veggies than I used to. Instead of deriving bulk from cheap nasty refined carbs, the voluminous veggies now suffice.
Normal days c.50g carbs is absolutely sufficient with that being deived from root veggies, fruit, oatcakes in place of bread or crackers. Fats and proteins from a wide variety of meat/white fish/oily fish/soya/quorn/eggs/beans
My concession is a slight hybrid approach on longer rides where for other reasons, I end up needing to consume small amounts of carbs, typically 20-30g/hr of activity, whereas the classical approach would have you taking consuming c.100g/hr at my typical running and riding paces, which I can't see anyone replacing ta that rate without serious stomach issues.
I still use a few gels, hardly ever use liquid carbs, these days tend to use fruit/nut/flapjacky/oaty things as lower GI.
Are you measuring ketones in your blood/urine? How often?
When I was in ketosis I had no fruit and no oats of any sort. Even then you have to be careful of not eating too much protein; as the liver will make glycogen out of it. Peter Attia was dumping egg whites in order to keep in ketosis due to protein content and just eating yokes.
Dr Louise Burke has a podcast on thescienceofultra.com where she talks about ketogenic experiments and the difficulty in keeping to diet WITH all the support the comes with funded studies. Lots of the subjects thought they had previously tried a ketogenic diet but it seems they were off by quite a bit.
Why do you need 30g/hr of carbs if you are in ketosis?
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I don't find a ketogenic diet at all restrictive.
I'm eating more veggies than I used to. Instead of deriving bulk from cheap nasty refined carbs, the voluminous veggies now suffice.
Normal days c.50g carbs is absolutely sufficient with that being deived from root veggies, fruit, oatcakes in place of bread or crackers. Fats and proteins from a wide variety of meat/white fish/oily fish/soya/quorn/eggs/beans
My concession is a slight hybrid approach on longer rides where for other reasons, I end up needing to consume small amounts of carbs, typically 20-30g/hr of activity, whereas the classical approach would have you taking consuming c.100g/hr at my typical running and riding paces, which I can't see anyone replacing ta that rate without serious stomach issues.
I still use a few gels, hardly ever use liquid carbs, these days tend to use fruit/nut/flapjacky/oaty things as lower GI.
Are you measuring ketones in your blood/urine? How often?
When I was in ketosis I had no fruit and no oats of any sort. Even then you have to be careful of not eating too much protein; as the liver will make glycogen out of it. Peter Attia was dumping egg whites in order to keep in ketosis due to protein content and just eating yokes.
Dr Louise Burke has a podcast on thescienceofultra.com where she talks about ketogenic experiments and the difficulty in keeping to diet WITH all the support the comes with funded studies. Lots of the subjects thought they had previously tried a ketogenic diet but it seems they were off by quite a bit.
Why do you need 30g/hr of carbs if you are in ketosis?
Periodically test blood ketones. And yes, I'm careful about not going OTT with proteins for exactly the reason you suggest.
In terms of the 30g/hr, I'm a T1 diabetic, and it's all about getting the balance right between my insulin on board and the exercise. You non-pancreatically challenged folks effectively turn off insulin production whereas I turn my pump down. I'm at a point where I think I'm happy with it and it's manageable, but with the trade-off of needing a bit of carbs now and then. Only during exercise though, so although they may be restricting fat burn they are not contributing to blood sugar rise.
That said, I may do further experimentation, unless it has negative post-exercise impacts.
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I like tortilla wraps for longer rides. Spread with peanut butter, a bit of jam or nutella as well if like, folded up, wrapped in cling film and stuffed in a jersey pocket. Easy to eat on the move and contain a fair number of calories. Roast chicken and guacamole is also a good filling.
I also detest gels and have always faired well on rides when I've eaten solid carbs (bread or pasta) plus protein and fat in a roughly 3:1:1 ratio. Then have a cake at the cafe or control.
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Big fan of a double sausage and egg McMuffin too. :thumbsup:
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An extreme example of how little food is necessary for ultra running, an event which makes audax look like a Sunday stroll!
This guy wasn't making up the numbers but winning
https://eoinkeith.wordpress.com/2016/01/29/the-spine-race-2016-nutriton/
That's certainly extreme.
I’ve won the New York 6 day race when I ate almost nothing (just a few ice cream treats in the heat) for the first 5 days (and only ate on the last day because I was so far in front that I could indulge the luxuries!).
Most people would find going 5 days without food extremely difficult and weakening even without running at the same time. So I don't think he can really be taken as a guide to 'fuelling' for most of us any more than Wiggo's time trial results can be a guide to audax finish times.
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An extreme example of how little food is necessary for ultra running, an event which makes audax look like a Sunday stroll!
This guy wasn't making up the numbers but winning
https://eoinkeith.wordpress.com/2016/01/29/the-spine-race-2016-nutriton/
That's certainly extreme.
I’ve won the New York 6 day race when I ate almost nothing (just a few ice cream treats in the heat) for the first 5 days (and only ate on the last day because I was so far in front that I could indulge the luxuries!).
Most people would find going 5 days without food extremely difficult and weakening even without running at the same time. So I don't think he can really be taken as a guide to 'fuelling' for most of us any more than Wiggo's time trial results can be a guide to audax finish times.
Kinda ironic you should mention Wigging as the OP got in trouble using "food" which is very TT appropriate on long endurance rides....
What I quoted is pretty extreme but does that mean audax riders, who's events are as long as the run in question, can't learn something from it?
The main point being body fat, of which even us lean people have huge amounts, is an entirely appropriate fuel for audax. A few minor adaptations allow it to become the primary fuel choice, hence reducing the food required on the go and the issues it causes many people. The OP is far from unique.
I do a lot of fasts, two 24hrs fast every month. They are much easier than I would have thought possible before and extending it for a few days isn't difficult either. We have all the hardware to deal with fasts quite well, but as we are always surrounded by food it seems some alien concept now.
While Wigging speed is far beyond an audax riders does that mean we can learn anything from him which could help our riding.
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Personally, I fast very well.
So long as I don't exert myself.
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It's Ash Wednesday today; religious practices as an introduction to audax? !?!?!?
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To successfully achieve a 200km rando in a state of ketosis, it ought to be after a year of gradually decreasing one’s CHO daily intake.
Jumping straight in, as Atkins prescribed, was to see large amounts of fat % loss ASAP, FOR EFFECT, not necessarily Health.
Many sudden converts to the Atkins or ZeroCarb diet get tremendous headaches, which IMHO, is not healthy, as the ‘normal operation’ of the human brain is NOT having a headache.
I embarked on a Keto diet in 1996 by reversing Atkins’ procedure to assess ‘Carbs to achieve weight loss’ value. I gradually reduced carbs, not totally cut and subsequently added.
I was riding 35 miles per day to work then, and over three months, I didn’t get a headache at all and then rode the Castleton Classic 200 in a state of Keto.
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I'm doing some very low intensity "training" (it's so low intensity, I hesitate to call it "training") which includes a long fasted weekend ride; in conjunction with a very low carb diet - less than 50g a day.
Last Sunday, I managed 102km completely fasted, around where we're going to be living very shortly (and where even the flat bits have hills - at least, for this flatlander's legs) without any energy issues. Sure I was VERY ready to eat by the time I finished, but I didn't need any carbs (tea was cheese, chicken, ham and a fruit salad at Wetherby services - classy) and energy flow and focus was easily good enough for me to drive 300 miles back south in shitty weather, without any problems whatsoever.
Get the fat burning right - and you simply don't need to worry about food. Or digestive issues during a ride, because you're trying/having to force food in. But to get it this useful, you have to follow what most people would regard as a really unbalanced diet (75% fat, 20% protein, 5% carbs). No bread (no grains of any kind) and no sugar except small incidental amounts in fruit.
May I interject here?
I am trying to fathom this issue out for myself and find I'm a little lost in all the info, if I could iterate my understanding of fat burning;
For mostly fat burning I would have to cycle at a heart rate of 70% of MHR or less which with my lowish power output, I would be travelling too slow overall to finish a 200Km Audax in time I'm sure. So I'm doing some interval training to increase my power output overall which appears to be slowly having the desired effect of raising my power output right through my heart rate range, but not enough yet to propel me fast enough at this low level (130bpm in my case).
My understanding of fat conversion in the body to useful fuel for working muscles is several hours from consumption, which is too slow for most audaxes? so fuelling on the ride is useless, it would have to be done before and after the ride in normal body operation.
What exactly do I need to do to make my body burn fat more efficiently, I understand as Chris has stated very low level cycling but how much and for how long?
Ta for any answers.
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My understanding, or rather my assumption, was burning fat reserves, so unimportant when you ate.
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You're conflating two things- fat burning zone- where your intensity is such that you don't strip through your reserves, and ketosis, where you only burn fat whatever the intensity.
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What exactly do I need to do to make my body burn fat more efficiently, I understand as Chris has stated very low level cycling but how much and for how long?
Ta for any answers.
OK, you're not (AFAIR) Sami Inkinen, but this blog post shows how he transformed his energy usage profile: http://www.samiinkinen.com/post/86875777832/becoming-a-bonk-proof-triathlete-fat-chance.
An N=1 anecdote isn't worth much, but Jeff Volek's FASTER study has reproduced this experience in others: http://www.enduranceplanet.com/pt-1-dr-jeff-volek-and-zach-bitter-introducing-the-faster-study-and-low-carb-fueling-for-athletes/.
So - if you can make a LCHF diet work for you, you're well on your way :thumbsup:.
The Low intensity stuff I'm doing is a variation on Maffetone training that runners do; basically it concentrates on demonstrable improvements to one's aerobic base before even attempting training at anaerobic work-rates.
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Having had RQ fat burning test, at peak fat burning was about 55% of total calories. I could quite comfortably cycle 200km within the time limit, riding at that sort of intensity, eating only food I carried.
That 55% was within 20 minutes or so of commencing exercise. Fat burning would tend to increase over time. When I was relatively untrained a couple of months beforehand, it was peaking at 25-30%.
Regarding zones, I was burning fat at roughly a constant absolute rate up until I approached LT. Basically I had a fixed fat burning capability and above that intensity of work, carbs made up the gap. Until it got hard, at which point fat burning switched off.
If you train at lower intensities and avoid eating lots before and during - especially before - then you should see an increase in fat burning ability. Particularly avoid lots of sugary stuff in your diet.
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I did a 2h15 fasted base session on the turbo yesterday. Two coffees beforehand don't count, right? ::-)
It's hard to think of anything more tedious, even with Netflix.
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I suspect that different types of fat are not equally accessible for purposes of fuelling exertion.
Recently eaten food > visceral fat > subcutaneous fat IMO.
Not everyone can digest and absorb much fat whilst on the move.
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I did a 2h15 fasted base session on the turbo yesterday. Two coffees beforehand don't count, right? ::-)
It's hard to think of anything more tedious, even with Netflix.
that's why I do those rides to a seller of high-fat delectable breakfast goods. Ideally down nice roads.
You turbots must have different internal wiring to me.
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I believe big doses of caffeine can increase fatty acid release and are classed by some as ergogenic.
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Thanks for the replies everyone, some good reading there for sure. LCHF appears to be the way to go, will look further into it.
Cheers all. :)
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I'm doing some very low intensity "training" (it's so low intensity, I hesitate to call it "training") which includes a long fasted weekend ride; in conjunction with a very low carb diet - less than 50g a day.
Last Sunday, I managed 102km completely fasted, around where we're going to be living very shortly (and where even the flat bits have hills - at least, for this flatlander's legs) without any energy issues. Sure I was VERY ready to eat by the time I finished, but I didn't need any carbs (tea was cheese, chicken, ham and a fruit salad at Wetherby services - classy) and energy flow and focus was easily good enough for me to drive 300 miles back south in shitty weather, without any problems whatsoever.
Get the fat burning right - and you simply don't need to worry about food. Or digestive issues during a ride, because you're trying/having to force food in. But to get it this useful, you have to follow what most people would regard as a really unbalanced diet (75% fat, 20% protein, 5% carbs). No bread (no grains of any kind) and no sugar except small incidental amounts in fruit.
May I interject here?
I am trying to fathom this issue out for myself and find I'm a little lost in all the info, if I could iterate my understanding of fat burning;
For mostly fat burning I would have to cycle at a heart rate of 70% of MHR or less which with my lowish power output, I would be travelling too slow overall to finish a 200Km Audax in time I'm sure. So I'm doing some interval training to increase my power output overall which appears to be slowly having the desired effect of raising my power output right through my heart rate range, but not enough yet to propel me fast enough at this low level (130bpm in my case).
My understanding of fat conversion in the body to useful fuel for working muscles is several hours from consumption, which is too slow for most audaxes? so fuelling on the ride is useless, it would have to be done before and after the ride in normal body operation.What exactly do I need to do to make my body burn fat more efficiently, I understand as Chris has stated very low level cycling but how much and for how long?
Ta for any answers.
Google "Carbo loading".
Also
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipolysis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triglycerides
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i have been experimenting on my recent long rides with how little food i can get away and at what intensity i can carry on riding. it turns out if i keep it steady (10-20% below my usual audax pace) the body needs only so much to keep going. for example taking a 312km hilly (4700m ascent) ride - big breakfast, then two bread rolls with butter and cheese and four bananas during the ride and a normal dinner afterwards.
i would normally eat more during the day without any cycling!
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Remember speed vs power is a curve.
Doubling speed requires much more than double the power.
Halving speed saves much more than half the power exertion.
:thumbsup:
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I am no physicist/mathematician but my 1974 O Level in Physics taught me that kinetic energy went up with the square of the velocity ½mv2 so doubling the speed will quadruple the energy needed.
And that's in a vacuum...
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I am no physicist/mathematician but my 1974 O Level in Physics taught me that kinetic energy went up with the square of the velocity ½mv2 so doubling the speed will quadruple the energy needed.
And that's in a vacuum...
It's not about the kinetic energy of the cyclist+bike, though. That's relatively small. It's mostly about the kinetic energy of all the air you have to shove out of the way, and that's cubic with speed.
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Air drag isn't much of a factor below 10mph or so.
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Does anyone remember Alas Smith & Jones? And did they ever discuss the physics of cycling? :P
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Does anyone remember Alas Smith & Jones? And did they ever discuss the physics of cycling? :P
In all the trains and banks they robbed, they never stole a bicycle.
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(http://img.tesco.com/Groceries/pi/088/5000295144088/IDShot_540x540.jpg)
The one time I really wanted to just abandon an Audax I was rescued by those. Not that particular flavour, but having taken a bit of time to take stock of the situation and realise I had plenty of time in hand a couple of those and a 15 minute timeout did the trick nicely.
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I like Muller Corners to bring me off the 'edge of doom'.
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I like Muller Corners to bring me off the 'edge of doom'.
Frijj needs fewer hands...
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Last month I had a friij type drink with a banana in Audlem while on the mere 200 audax. First time for me, didn't half hit the spot. Got me mojo back I can tell you. This is what I will be looking for in future.