Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => The Knowledge => Health & Fitness => Topic started by: Kev Sp8 on July 12, 2017, 06:09:45 pm

Title: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: Kev Sp8 on July 12, 2017, 06:09:45 pm
I DNF'd the Mille Pennines 1000km Audax on Sunday morning, after completing day 1 and 2; a performance I'm pretty happy with overall, but I'm now looking forward at ironing out the errors I made to go further next time.
Once of the big problems I had during the ride was what to eat, how much and when. When options are limited to petrol stations and shops, what do you favour to keep the energy levels topped up without ending up feeling bloated and sick? Are cycling specific energy bars/gels the answer? I'd rather stick to real food if I can, although I'm open minded to any option.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: Manotea on July 12, 2017, 06:52:38 pm
There is a solution but it's not for everyone... (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=67736.msg2187213#msg2187213)
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: Chinaski on July 13, 2017, 10:45:14 am
I DNF'd the Mille Pennines 1000km Audax on Sunday morning, after completing day 1 and 2; a performance I'm pretty happy with overall, but I'm now looking forward at ironing out the errors I made to go further next time.
Once of the big problems I had during the ride was what to eat, how much and when. When options are limited to petrol stations and shops, what do you favour to keep the energy levels topped up without ending up feeling bloated and sick? Are cycling specific energy bars/gels the answer? I'd rather stick to real food if I can, although I'm open minded to any option.

Just taking a very rough approximation, 1000km will burn about 20,000 calories. That's a lot of food.

Given the general low intensity nature of audax, it makes sense (especially where you are predisposed to gastro upset) to get as much as that from bodyfat as possible.

In order to fat adapt the surest way is go keto, you then have no choice as the brain will fire up it's backup system in the absence of glucose. Even if you switched easily, keto is really hard to maintain in the modern world. You will aslo be slower less powerful all things being equal. (DR Louise Bourke has some research on the body down regulating it's use of glycogen in it's absence and presence of ketones) So if you want to have a fairly quality but not too restricted diet I'd be inclined to
*eat well, not necessarily hflc but, if you are going to eat a good percentage of carbs have them decent with plenty fibre, low gi etc etc. Good clean quality food with minimal sugar, processed foods
* try intermittent fasting, say one day a week when doing something sedentary. Whether any physiological changes happen or not(they probably will) it'll help you mentally when exercising fasted.
* start with a short spin and build up. My first spin was 30km I think. Bring an apple, the world champion of cycling foods, tastier than a banana and rugged as fcuk! A lot of it is in your head, sip water when you think you are hungry.
You will adapt slowly.
*If you feel miserable, eat. It's not a misery contest.
*If you are ever travelling use it as a chance to avoid airport, convenience a do a 24hr fast. If you are used to IF it's surprisingly easy


Adaptation will take a while though so don't dive straight in. I'm at this 3 years or so and if I was riding a 1000km next week over 60hrs or so i'd probably do the following. I'd start each day fasted and consume very little on bike circa 1000-1500 calories over 350km or so. I would then eat a lot when finished with little regard to macros other than adequate protein given the catabolic nature of fasted endurance riding, just eat. Carbs won't be in short supply at any audax control! Same day after.

Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on July 13, 2017, 11:06:07 am
I would stay away from gels

We should be approaching this in the same way as someone doing heavy manual labour. Solid meals, work steadily but not too high an intensity.

The only difference is the sleep deprivation.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: hellymedic on July 13, 2017, 11:42:51 am
It is difficult to absorb food when exercising intensely, especially while hot.

Not everyone can digest fatty food on the move.

Avoid BIG meals unless having a LONG rest.

Real Food will get you most places.

Eat as soon as you stop; in a queue, after a puncture.

The foods you crave and fancy are a good clue as to what you need. They vary enormously between individuals. I might want a Frijj; you might not!
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: rob on July 16, 2017, 06:37:01 pm
I started only eating real food but eventually found I could do long rides using only sports food.   I was converted to gels and bars, but can't stomach carb drinks, preferring electrolyte drinks which are useful to carry around in tablet form.

On audaxes now, I use gels and bars from a top tube bag between controls but less frequently than if I was riding a time trial so, for example, 2 bars and 2 gels during a 50k leg.   I will then still eat normal food at the controls just less of it.   On PBP I averaged a full meal at every other control, preferring a baguette or other snack at the others.

Many people on here now preach keto and fat adaptation.   I've never tried it but get the feeling that my body really needs carbs on long rides.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: hellymedic on July 16, 2017, 06:45:27 pm
I have tried eating less carbohydrate at various stages. It has never worked for me.
Failed on a morning commute as I had skipped breakfast.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: Adam on July 16, 2017, 07:00:31 pm
I started only eating real food but eventually found I could do long rides using only sports food.   I was converted to gels and bars, but can't stomach carb drinks, preferring electrolyte drinks which are useful to carry around in tablet form.

On audaxes now, I use gels and bars from a top tube bag between controls but less frequently than if I was riding a time trial so, for example, 2 bars and 2 gels during a 50k leg.   I will then still eat normal food at the controls just less of it.   On PBP I averaged a full meal at every other control, preferring a baguette or other snack at the others.

Many people on here now preach keto and fat adaptation.   I've never tried it but get the feeling that my body really needs carbs on long rides.

The whole point about keto adaption, is that it is adaption.  Your body has to be trained to burn fat, and that process can take up to 8 weeks to run its course.  Until your body has converted to running on ketones you'll feel weak as though you've lost the top 25% of your power output.  Once you're out the other side, you've got to avoid eating too many carbs, as the body will simply take the easy way out and switch back.  However when burning fat, you don't need to eat to do long rides, as most people have plenty of fat reserves to keep them going.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: Chris S on July 16, 2017, 07:02:09 pm
Low carb takes adaptation. Some folks can do it in a few days, most take a few weeks.

For best results, give it a year. Few do - it takes focus.

X-post with Adam!
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: rob on July 16, 2017, 08:15:19 pm
I think if I were to move back to doing long Audaxes only then moving to fat burning would be something I would consider, however I spend a fair bit of time working at a higher level these days and I just don't think it would work.  I will fuel next weeks 24hr TT purely in carb using gels/bars as it works for me.

In typical forum fashion the OP asked whether to use sports food or avoid and he's been told to avoid gels and to use gels.  The best thing to do is to experiment over shorter distances until you come up with a formula.   I only fuel purely from sports food on TTs and mix and match when audaxing.   I think that little and often is my main recommendation.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: LMT on July 16, 2017, 08:57:32 pm
I started only eating real food but eventually found I could do long rides using only sports food.   I was converted to gels and bars, but can't stomach carb drinks, preferring electrolyte drinks which are useful to carry around in tablet form.

On audaxes now, I use gels and bars from a top tube bag between controls but less frequently than if I was riding a time trial so, for example, 2 bars and 2 gels during a 50k leg.   I will then still eat normal food at the controls just less of it.   On PBP I averaged a full meal at every other control, preferring a baguette or other snack at the others.

Many people on here now preach keto and fat adaptation.   I've never tried it but get the feeling that my body really needs carbs on long rides.

The whole point about keto adaption, is that it is adaption.  Your body has to be trained to burn fat, and that process can take up to 8 weeks to run its course.  Until your body has converted to running on ketones you'll feel weak as though you've lost the top 25% of your power output.  Once you're out the other side, you've got to avoid eating too many carbs, as the body will simply take the easy way out and switch back.  However when burning fat, you don't need to eat to do long rides, as most people have plenty of fat reserves to keep them going.

Would love for you or anyone else on a keto diet to do a sweetspot session or go tempo for a couple of hours.

OP, my advice would be to experiment, I've finally found what works for me and this some carb drink with some electrolyte tablets added for good measure. I still eat real food but this is in small measures but more frequently, for example a couple of bananas every couple of hours.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: vorsprung on July 16, 2017, 09:15:15 pm
"options are limited to petrol stations and shops" so learn to survive on Friji and sandwiches
try to stop at regular meal times (7am, 12noon, 5pm, 11pm) and eat whatever proper food is available
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: dim on July 17, 2017, 08:16:50 am
Ellas baby food ..... much better than gels, and it has natural sugars ... the fruit ones are best .... The banana and coconut is very good

(https://img.tesco.com/Groceries/pi/012/5060107338012/IDShot_540x540.jpg)

(http://www.happy-mothering.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Ellas-Kitchen-Organic-Baby-Food.jpg)
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: mattc on July 17, 2017, 10:29:26 am
"options are limited to petrol stations and shops" so learn to survive on Friji and sandwiches
try to stop at regular meal times (7am, 12noon, 5pm, 11pm) and eat whatever proper food is available
Yeah, there are usually a lot of pretty healthy options in petrol stations. Pick the right sandwiches, look out for chicken salads etc - lots of options usually :)

My tip is to look out for "local delicacies"; stuff only that shop sells (or the ones in that area), not made by some big brand at silly prices with billions of additives. The garage at Wick (on the Cheddar 300) does a great range of samosas and similar, in amongst the Frijj & Ginsters. Those and a Costa fuel me nicely for another 80k  :thumbsup:
(I seem to recall Yorkshire & Cumbria shops having various tarts/pies/cakes last weekend, Kev).
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: Ian H on July 17, 2017, 11:39:52 am
The harder the route, the more I try to stick to very easily digested foods.  Baked beans, soup, etc are good  for that. 
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: Manotea on July 17, 2017, 12:20:43 pm
"options are limited to petrol stations and shops" so learn to survive on Friji and sandwiches

Ketonauts pack or pickup some sausage, cheese, pork scratchings, whatever (all standard service station /corner shop fodder nowadays) and are good for the rest of the day... and much cheaper than regular carb/sugary snacks per calorie. #Ketowin #YPYPATYC
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: chris n on July 17, 2017, 03:35:36 pm
Not everyone can digest fatty food on the move.

Avoid BIG meals unless having a LONG rest.

I wish I'd remembered this at the weekend.  Big fat fry up (with oily fried bread) 1/3 of the way round a long 200  ruined me for the next four hours.  Couldn't eat anything or drink much for the next 100km, and it slowed me right down until I'd digested the grease.  Should've had beans on toast instead.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: Ian H on July 17, 2017, 05:15:00 pm
A full-English on the second day of my last 600 (route-checking the Buzzard) didn't seem to make much difference—I was grinding around anyway.

Many years ago, riding a Hard-boiled 300 (starting about four hours after finishing a Welsh 400), all I could cope with at about 5 in the morning was grilled tomatoes on toast.  It got better later.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: Manotea on July 17, 2017, 06:04:22 pm
There's the rub. On a Keto diet you don't eat large (carb heavy) fry ups. You don't need/want to because you just don't get that hungry.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on July 17, 2017, 11:01:37 pm
pork scratchings

Currently being reinvented as a superfood, so I’ve been reading.

It’s still the skin of a pig though.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: Manotea on July 17, 2017, 11:42:24 pm
pork scratchings

Currently being reinvented as a superfood, so I’ve been reading.

It’s still the skin of a pig though.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. In ten years time we'll all be eating whitchetty grubs. Fried, obvs. :)
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: hellymedic on July 17, 2017, 11:56:39 pm
Not everyone can digest fatty food on the move.

Avoid BIG meals unless having a LONG rest.

I wish I'd remembered this at the weekend.  Big fat fry up (with oily fried bread) 1/3 of the way round a long 200  ruined me for the next four hours.  Couldn't eat anything or drink much for the next 100km, and it slowed me right down until I'd digested the grease.  Should've had beans on toast instead.

The Brevet Cymru has a rather tempting cafe on the seas front at New Quay.
Some riders experience their fish and chips again on the climb...
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: HeltorChasca on July 18, 2017, 07:06:30 am
Ellas baby food ..... much better than gels, and it has natural sugars ... the fruit ones are best .... The banana and coconut is very good

(https://img.tesco.com/Groceries/pi/012/5060107338012/IDShot_540x540.jpg)

(http://www.happy-mothering.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Ellas-Kitchen-Organic-Baby-Food.jpg)

I think I may try this. Box, out, think.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: Ian H on July 18, 2017, 07:56:48 am
Not everyone can digest fatty food on the move.

Avoid BIG meals unless having a LONG rest.

I wish I'd remembered this at the weekend.  Big fat fry up (with oily fried bread) 1/3 of the way round a long 200  ruined me for the next four hours.  Couldn't eat anything or drink much for the next 100km, and it slowed me right down until I'd digested the grease.  Should've had beans on toast instead.

The Brevet Cymru has a rather tempting cafe on the seas front at New Quay.
Some riders experience their fish and chips again on the climb...

That's definitely a place to think carefully about what you eat.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: chris n on July 18, 2017, 08:43:48 am
The Brevet Cymru has a rather tempting cafe on the seas front at New Quay.
Some riders experience their fish and chips again on the climb...

I've eaten too much there too.  I could taste the lasagne all the way up to the Synod Inn. ::-) :facepalm:
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: Greenbank on July 18, 2017, 09:17:04 am
Double ordering at Pete's Eats.

Did not enjoy the subsequent excursion around Cefn Du.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: Kev Sp8 on July 18, 2017, 09:23:11 am
Thanks to everyone who's taken the time to reply. I'm intrigued by the whole Keto thing, but I just don't have the focus/resources to be able to make it work for me as my lodgers (girlfriend and 3 year old) are unlikely to want to go full on keto too. I would be intrigued to find out if there are keto devotees with families who do manage to make it work though.

I will be thinking much more carefully about my fueling. I'm riding a perm 300 with a pal on Sunday and will look to structure and schedule my eating better. I will also be taking a spork to open up the options of stuff like yoghurt/tins of rice pud. I recall feeling like I could've demolished some yoghurt half way through day 2 of Mille Pennines. I think another factor is that Mille Pennines was such an extreme leap forward for me that my digestive system was in shock from the dramatic increase of demands placed on it and just shut down in response.

I do like the Ella's kitchen baby food idea, stands to reason that it should be easily digestible.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: Manotea on July 18, 2017, 12:13:51 pm
Yes, the downside of living in a 'non Keto household' is that I do most of the shopping and cooking nowadays. It's the only way I get anything to eat... it's always a laugh buying cake and pasta , 'to keep the druggies happy'. As is the quality of my diet has vastly improved, and I eat far more veggies than I used to. The produce board of California who dreamt up the 5 a day scam would be proud of me.

The angry chef is a card. I've no doubt he's right and Keto is terrible for you for all sorts of reasons. On the other hand I know exactly what a so called mainstream balanced diet which it turns out was based on no science at all but entirely driven by the food industry has been doing to me my entire life. #IMAHAINGTTIAM #YPYPATYC

PS, the problem with the kiddie sachets is that they actually only contain about 100-150 cal or so, i.e., about 10 minutes worth. See also gel sachets. And guess what the primary ingredient of this easily digestable foodstuff is.... save your money and buy a can of beans with a ring pull lid, if you must...
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: mattc on July 18, 2017, 12:21:55 pm
Thanks to everyone who's taken the time to reply. I'm intrigued by the whole Keto thing, but I just don't have the focus/resources to be able to make it work for me as my lodgers (girlfriend and 3 year old) are unlikely to want to go full on keto too. I would be intrigued to find out if there are keto devotees with families who do manage to make it work though.

The ketonauts say otherwise, but I'm absolutely convinced of the benefits of going "part-keto"; cut right back on your everyday sugar, do more fasted riding, and fuel as much exercise as you can with non-carby stuff. There is science showing that some adaptations occur, and they're beneficial. I've certainly benefitted.

<resists urge to post tedious long-distance fat-burning anecdote ... >
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on July 18, 2017, 12:36:25 pm
cake ... , 'to keep the druggies happy'.
Funnily enough, the idea of sugar as an addictive substance came up in conversation recently about slavery.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: rob on July 18, 2017, 01:09:41 pm
PS, the problem with the kiddie sachets is that they actually only contain about 100-150 call or so, is, about 10 minutes worth. See also gel sachets. And guess what the primary ingredient if this easily digestable foodstuff is.... save your money and buy a can of beans with a ring pull lid, if you must...

You burn over 600 calories an hour audaxing ?    Half of that more like.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on July 18, 2017, 02:43:12 pm
Thanks to everyone who's taken the time to reply. I'm intrigued by the whole Keto thing, but I just don't have the focus/resources to be able to make it work for me as my lodgers (girlfriend and 3 year old) are unlikely to want to go full on keto too. I would be intrigued to find out if there are keto devotees with families who do manage to make it work though.

The ketonauts say otherwise, but I'm absolutely convinced of the benefits of going "part-keto"; cut right back on your everyday sugar, do more fasted riding, and fuel as much exercise as you can with non-carby stuff. There is science showing that some adaptations occur, and they're beneficial. I've certainly benefitted.

<resists urge to post tedious long-distance fat-burning anecdote ... >


This ^^^^  I went fully Keto for 6 months - lost loads of weight... long distance benefits are amazing but I found it impossible to maintain with a pregnant other half and 5 year old child.   Now im just very low carb and little or no sugar wherever possible.   We eat real food, with an emphasis on low carb.  I don't eat bread ect.   I still get most of the fat adapted benefits of keto with the added benefit of not worrying about eating some carbs before and after exercise.

My two biggest issues with a traditional (BAD) diet was gut problems during distance events and massive hunger and over eating once finished.   Both of these problems have gone now.   I feel so much better on a low carb diet on a day to day basis that I don't ever see myself going back.

I find I am fat adapted enough to without carb loading and comfortable with fasted exercise in order to do away with the massive over eating that used to sustain my cycling and recovery.

Im also convinced that doing away with sugar and carbs after exercise helps with recovery as your body has less inflammation to deal with.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: LMT on July 18, 2017, 08:20:20 pm
Thanks to everyone who's taken the time to reply. I'm intrigued by the whole Keto thing, but I just don't have the focus/resources to be able to make it work for me as my lodgers (girlfriend and 3 year old) are unlikely to want to go full on keto too. I would be intrigued to find out if there are keto devotees with families who do manage to make it work though.

The ketonauts say otherwise, but I'm absolutely convinced of the benefits of going "part-keto"; cut right back on your everyday sugar, do more fasted riding, and fuel as much exercise as you can with non-carby stuff. There is science showing that some adaptations occur, and they're beneficial. I've certainly benefitted.

<resists urge to post tedious long-distance fat-burning anecdote ... >


This ^^^^  I went fully Keto for 6 months - lost loads of weight... long distance benefits are amazing but I found it impossible to maintain with a pregnant other half and 5 year old child.   Now im just very low carb and little or no sugar wherever possible.   We eat real food, with an emphasis on low carb.  I don't eat bread ect.   I still get most of the fat adapted benefits of keto with the added benefit of not worrying about eating some carbs before and after exercise.

My two biggest issues with a traditional (BAD) diet was gut problems during distance events and massive hunger and over eating once finished.   Both of these problems have gone now.   I feel so much better on a low carb diet on a day to day basis that I don't ever see myself going back.

I find I am fat adapted enough to without carb loading and comfortable with fasted exercise in order to do away with the massive over eating that used to sustain my cycling and recovery.

Im also convinced that doing away with sugar and carbs after exercise helps with recovery as your body has less inflammation to deal with.

What?? :facepalm:

Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: dim on July 18, 2017, 10:27:45 pm
on long hard rides, you need sugar ...thats why the guys who rode Inipak were eating Conneto and Magnum ice creams etc , and thats why many people who ride long Audax always stop and eatc chocolate cake ...

 gels have a high sugar content, but it's artificial sugars similar / spin off of asparatine (which is very very bad for you)... rather use the baby food fruit stuff  which has natural sugars .... banana and cononut flavour has a high sugar content (from my personal taste)

and if you arce cycling and your body needs more food, it will tell you, and you will crave for what is needed (such as fish and chips, pizza, macdonalds etc) ....

when you really need a boost, have a Frijj chocolate milkshake

and forget about these fad diets ....

make a good smoothie everyday with a nutribullet (add stuff like spinnach, fresh beetroot, fresh fruit, coconut water etc), and have that for breakfast with cooked oats ....

eat sensibly for lunch and dinner, then go on a ride of approx 25 miles at pace most mornings, and you will loose weight, get fitter and ride faster


I'm speaking from experience  :)
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on July 19, 2017, 07:01:17 am
Thanks to everyone who's taken the time to reply. I'm intrigued by the whole Keto thing, but I just don't have the focus/resources to be able to make it work for me as my lodgers (girlfriend and 3 year old) are unlikely to want to go full on keto too. I would be intrigued to find out if there are keto devotees with families who do manage to make it work though.

The ketonauts say otherwise, but I'm absolutely convinced of the benefits of going "part-keto"; cut right back on your everyday sugar, do more fasted riding, and fuel as much exercise as you can with non-carby stuff. There is science showing that some adaptations occur, and they're beneficial. I've certainly benefitted.

<resists urge to post tedious long-distance fat-burning anecdote ... >


This ^^^^  I went fully Keto for 6 months - lost loads of weight... long distance benefits are amazing but I found it impossible to maintain with a pregnant other half and 5 year old child.   Now im just very low carb and little or no sugar wherever possible.   We eat real food, with an emphasis on low carb.  I don't eat bread ect.   I still get most of the fat adapted benefits of keto with the added benefit of not worrying about eating some carbs before and after exercise.

My two biggest issues with a traditional (BAD) diet was gut problems during distance events and massive hunger and over eating once finished.   Both of these problems have gone now.   I feel so much better on a low carb diet on a day to day basis that I don't ever see myself going back.

I find I am fat adapted enough to without carb loading and comfortable with fasted exercise in order to do away with the massive over eating that used to sustain my cycling and recovery.

Im also convinced that doing away with sugar and carbs after exercise helps with recovery as your body has less inflammation to deal with.

What?? :facepalm:


Im doing much better in life now on a fat-protein-based diet because it's packed with more of the nutrients that are used to rebuild muscle, such as protein. The low carb foods I eat are rich in antioxidants, which generate less inflammation and free radicals than sugar/carbs. For pure efficiency's sake, fat burns "cleaner" than sugar in that it leaves less metabolic junk behind in the mitochondria.

I can only speak from my own experience but I find my body recovers better after exercise when filled up with fats and protein rather than carbs and sugar.   
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: Kev Sp8 on July 19, 2017, 07:54:14 am
Fascinating to get such a wide range of perspectives. It seems that something that suits one person can be entirely unsuitable for another and diets that would once have been considered extreme are now accepted as almost mainstream.
Please keep your viewpoints coming. Whilst some of the dietary solutions seem to require full on commitment to see tangible results, I'm planning to pick and choose a few ideas that gut instinct is telling me might work for me and see how they go.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: Ian H on July 19, 2017, 10:09:13 am
...gut instinct...

:)
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on July 19, 2017, 10:26:59 am
HK and I find that as we get fitter, we naturally shift to a 'lean burn' metabolism. Nutritional needs drop, dips in performance level out and so on. There is no particular shift in our diets, a fair mix of carbs, fats and protein.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: hellymedic on July 19, 2017, 12:17:45 pm
LWaB makes a good point. The non-zealots shift to fat-burning with adaptation.

Some folk can neither absorb fat from food nor access body fat quickly enough to sustain anything more than minimal progress.

They either need to eat some carbs or move slowly.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: chrisbainbridge on July 19, 2017, 01:56:46 pm
Quote
on long hard rides, you need sugar
This is demonstrably untrue.  You need a source of fuel for your muscles and just like hybrid cars we are bifuel.  We can run on FFA or glucose.  Glucose/glycogen is in very limited supply and needs topping up regularly (think car battery).  The Free Fatty acids, FFA, are to all intents and purposes limitless.

We have to define what we mean by a long hard ride.  An Olympic triathlon or marathon is defined by many as an endurance sport but we in this group are realistically talking about 24+hours of exercise at Zone2/3 power levels. 

if you are Chris Froome then you need to fuel on glycogen because it is the fast response total power fuel.  We are doing manily zone 2/3 exercise and do not need glycogen/glucose as a major energy source.  I expect that I will run on FFA upto the hills and then probably drop into glucose metabolism for the hills and then have some carbs before setting off south again.  Until thirsk I am planning essentially zero carbs
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on July 19, 2017, 02:20:30 pm
My fuzzy memory of metabolism says that a normal non-adapted person runs on a mixture of energy pathways, normally breaking foods down to glucose/glycogen but also using some under the FFA pathway directly. Some Glycogen released slowly from stores in the liver.
Is that vaguely correct?

Whenever I've done super-long (more than 24hrs without sleep) stints of anything (with or without physical exertion), I reach a point where my body loathes the idea of ingesting any more sugary substances and craves savoury things, particularly savoury liquids. Soup or savoury stew seems like food of the gods then.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on July 19, 2017, 02:30:41 pm
I would also make the point that high performance doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with good long term health.   The way professional athletes are required to fuel in order to win isn't normally very "good" for them in the long term.

For the average audaxer... do you really need to be eating cakes, energy bars, gels and sports drink constantly through a ride and after?   I certainly didn't and it only took a few weeks for my body to adjust.   

My diet may not be the best possible way to fuel peak performance in a time trial....but ive lost the best part of 5 stone on this diet which I'm pretty sure has a bigger impact than being to access energy from sugar quickly.   
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: rob on July 19, 2017, 04:38:30 pm
I fuel purely from sports food (carb) when I ride TTs.    For audax it's normal food at controls and snacking on sports food between controls.

I found that my digestion worked better with little and often rather than large meals at 3-4hr intervals.   

Also don't forget hydration.   Many a well-planned feeding strategy has been ruined by forgetting to drink and then feeling too sick to take food on.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: hellymedic on July 19, 2017, 04:50:31 pm
Don't forget chilling/cooling/warming when thinking of hydrating and fuelling!

You won't absorb effectively if you're too hot or cold.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: dim on July 20, 2017, 06:53:41 am
Thanks to everyone who's taken the time to reply. I'm intrigued by the whole Keto thing, but I just don't have the focus/resources to be able to make it work for me as my lodgers (girlfriend and 3 year old) are unlikely to want to go full on keto too. I would be intrigued to find out if there are keto devotees with families who do manage to make it work though.

The ketonauts say otherwise, but I'm absolutely convinced of the benefits of going "part-keto"; cut right back on your everyday sugar, do more fasted riding, and fuel as much exercise as you can with non-carby stuff. There is science showing that some adaptations occur, and they're beneficial. I've certainly benefitted.

<resists urge to post tedious long-distance fat-burning anecdote ... >


This ^^^^  I went fully Keto for 6 months - lost loads of weight... long distance benefits are amazing but I found it impossible to maintain with a pregnant other half and 5 year old child.   Now im just very low carb and little or no sugar wherever possible.   We eat real food, with an emphasis on low carb.  I don't eat bread ect.   I still get most of the fat adapted benefits of keto with the added benefit of not worrying about eating some carbs before and after exercise.

My two biggest issues with a traditional (BAD) diet was gut problems during distance events and massive hunger and over eating once finished.   Both of these problems have gone now.   I feel so much better on a low carb diet on a day to day basis that I don't ever see myself going back.

I find I am fat adapted enough to without carb loading and comfortable with fasted exercise in order to do away with the massive over eating that used to sustain my cycling and recovery.

Im also convinced that doing away with sugar and carbs after exercise helps with recovery as your body has less inflammation to deal with.

What?? :facepalm:


Im doing much better in life now on a fat-protein-based diet because it's packed with more of the nutrients that are used to rebuild muscle, such as protein. The low carb foods I eat are rich in antioxidants, which generate less inflammation and free radicals than sugar/carbs. For pure efficiency's sake, fat burns "cleaner" than sugar in that it leaves less metabolic junk behind in the mitochondria.

I can only speak from my own experience but I find my body recovers better after exercise when filled up with fats and protein rather than carbs and sugar.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doo-R1eY_vI

Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on July 20, 2017, 11:14:21 am
Thanks to everyone who's taken the time to reply. I'm intrigued by the whole Keto thing, but I just don't have the focus/resources to be able to make it work for me as my lodgers (girlfriend and 3 year old) are unlikely to want to go full on keto too. I would be intrigued to find out if there are keto devotees with families who do manage to make it work though.

The ketonauts say otherwise, but I'm absolutely convinced of the benefits of going "part-keto"; cut right back on your everyday sugar, do more fasted riding, and fuel as much exercise as you can with non-carby stuff. There is science showing that some adaptations occur, and they're beneficial. I've certainly benefitted.

<resists urge to post tedious long-distance fat-burning anecdote ... >


This ^^^^  I went fully Keto for 6 months - lost loads of weight... long distance benefits are amazing but I found it impossible to maintain with a pregnant other half and 5 year old child.   Now im just very low carb and little or no sugar wherever possible.   We eat real food, with an emphasis on low carb.  I don't eat bread ect.   I still get most of the fat adapted benefits of keto with the added benefit of not worrying about eating some carbs before and after exercise.

My two biggest issues with a traditional (BAD) diet was gut problems during distance events and massive hunger and over eating once finished.   Both of these problems have gone now.   I feel so much better on a low carb diet on a day to day basis that I don't ever see myself going back.

I find I am fat adapted enough to without carb loading and comfortable with fasted exercise in order to do away with the massive over eating that used to sustain my cycling and recovery.

Im also convinced that doing away with sugar and carbs after exercise helps with recovery as your body has less inflammation to deal with.

What?? :facepalm:


Im doing much better in life now on a fat-protein-based diet because it's packed with more of the nutrients that are used to rebuild muscle, such as protein. The low carb foods I eat are rich in antioxidants, which generate less inflammation and free radicals than sugar/carbs. For pure efficiency's sake, fat burns "cleaner" than sugar in that it leaves less metabolic junk behind in the mitochondria.

I can only speak from my own experience but I find my body recovers better after exercise when filled up with fats and protein rather than carbs and sugar.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doo-R1eY_vI

no one is arguing Chris Froome should be on a low carb diet.

I will just repeat what I said above that elite performance doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with good long term health.   Audax UK isn't The Tour and fuelling constantly with refined sugar isn't a very good idea...and certainly isn't necessary.

The original poster was saying he couldn't fuel effectively with sugar and carbs without having bloating and stomach problems.   That's the exact issue I had and it wasn't solved by just eating different products or eating them in different quantities at different durations.   A high fat, low carb diet has helped me and many others with that exact issue with the added bonus that I lost loads of weight and became a much healthier person.   I am only offering an opinion.  Do your own research and make your own decisions until you find something that works.... but don't compare elite professional fuelling with good long term healthy diets for amateur endurance athletes.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: mattc on July 20, 2017, 03:27:59 pm
The OP asked about nutrition on a 1000k-in-3-days event. Typically 50hrs of riding over very hilly terrain. Chris Froome doesn't do anything like those durations, so it's quite possible that his optimum diet is very different. (most tour stages are 4-6 hours?)
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: DuncanM on July 20, 2017, 06:39:30 pm
The OP asked about nutrition on a 1000k-in-3-days event. Typically 50hrs of riding over very hilly terrain. Chris Froome doesn't do anything like those durations, so it's quite possible that his optimum diet is very different. (most tour stages are 4-6 hours?)
The power requirements for a hilly/mountainous stage are huge - there's no way anyone can produce 400W for an hour when burning fat, so it would make sense that the diet would have to be different to doing epic distances somewhat slower. 
I would argue that the dietary requirements for someone to do 1000km in 3 days are also extreme, just in a different way. It may well be that a keto style diet works better for that sort of athletic endeavour - given how nutrition (especially sports nutrition) is so personal, the only way for the OP to find out is to try it.

I like Angry Chef, and much of his argument is against woo when it is claiming to be able to do things that it really shouldn't be going anywhere near (such as eating disorders, cancer treatment etc). I'm sure he would be fairly critical of the sugar based diet of TdF riders if presented to him out of the TdF context. Fueling for extreme athletic feats is not really in scope for his ranting, so I'm not sure he'd be that bothered by a lower carb diet as a means of riding extreme distance events. I would find it interesting to hear his take on this discussion - I don't think there has been much un-adulterated evangelising here.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: LMT on July 20, 2017, 09:20:07 pm
Thanks to everyone who's taken the time to reply. I'm intrigued by the whole Keto thing, but I just don't have the focus/resources to be able to make it work for me as my lodgers (girlfriend and 3 year old) are unlikely to want to go full on keto too. I would be intrigued to find out if there are keto devotees with families who do manage to make it work though.

The ketonauts say otherwise, but I'm absolutely convinced of the benefits of going "part-keto"; cut right back on your everyday sugar, do more fasted riding, and fuel as much exercise as you can with non-carby stuff. There is science showing that some adaptations occur, and they're beneficial. I've certainly benefitted.

<resists urge to post tedious long-distance fat-burning anecdote ... >


This ^^^^  I went fully Keto for 6 months - lost loads of weight... long distance benefits are amazing but I found it impossible to maintain with a pregnant other half and 5 year old child.   Now im just very low carb and little or no sugar wherever possible.   We eat real food, with an emphasis on low carb.  I don't eat bread ect.   I still get most of the fat adapted benefits of keto with the added benefit of not worrying about eating some carbs before and after exercise.

My two biggest issues with a traditional (BAD) diet was gut problems during distance events and massive hunger and over eating once finished.   Both of these problems have gone now.   I feel so much better on a low carb diet on a day to day basis that I don't ever see myself going back.

I find I am fat adapted enough to without carb loading and comfortable with fasted exercise in order to do away with the massive over eating that used to sustain my cycling and recovery.

Im also convinced that doing away with sugar and carbs after exercise helps with recovery as your body has less inflammation to deal with.

What?? :facepalm:


Im doing much better in life now on a fat-protein-based diet because it's packed with more of the nutrients that are used to rebuild muscle, such as protein. The low carb foods I eat are rich in antioxidants, which generate less inflammation and free radicals than sugar/carbs. For pure efficiency's sake, fat burns "cleaner" than sugar in that it leaves less metabolic junk behind in the mitochondria.

I can only speak from my own experience but I find my body recovers better after exercise when filled up with fats and protein rather than carbs and sugar.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doo-R1eY_vI

no one is arguing Chris Froome should be on a low carb diet.

I will just repeat what I said above that elite performance doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with good long term health.   Audax UK isn't The Tour and fuelling constantly with refined sugar isn't a very good idea...and certainly isn't necessary.

The original poster was saying he couldn't fuel effectively with sugar and carbs without having bloating and stomach problems.   That's the exact issue I had and it wasn't solved by just eating different products or eating them in different quantities at different durations.   A high fat, low carb diet has helped me and many others with that exact issue with the added bonus that I lost loads of weight and became a much healthier person.   I am only offering an opinion.  Do your own research and make your own decisions until you find something that works.... but don't compare elite professional fuelling with good long term healthy diets for amateur endurance athletes.

If you are referring to keto here with an emphasis on animal products then it's not long term and it ain't certainly ain't healthy.
Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: dim on July 20, 2017, 09:43:20 pm
Thanks to everyone who's taken the time to reply. I'm intrigued by the whole Keto thing, but I just don't have the focus/resources to be able to make it work for me as my lodgers (girlfriend and 3 year old) are unlikely to want to go full on keto too. I would be intrigued to find out if there are keto devotees with families who do manage to make it work though.

The ketonauts say otherwise, but I'm absolutely convinced of the benefits of going "part-keto"; cut right back on your everyday sugar, do more fasted riding, and fuel as much exercise as you can with non-carby stuff. There is science showing that some adaptations occur, and they're beneficial. I've certainly benefitted.

<resists urge to post tedious long-distance fat-burning anecdote ... >


This ^^^^  I went fully Keto for 6 months - lost loads of weight... long distance benefits are amazing but I found it impossible to maintain with a pregnant other half and 5 year old child.   Now im just very low carb and little or no sugar wherever possible.   We eat real food, with an emphasis on low carb.  I don't eat bread ect.   I still get most of the fat adapted benefits of keto with the added benefit of not worrying about eating some carbs before and after exercise.

My two biggest issues with a traditional (BAD) diet was gut problems during distance events and massive hunger and over eating once finished.   Both of these problems have gone now.   I feel so much better on a low carb diet on a day to day basis that I don't ever see myself going back.

I find I am fat adapted enough to without carb loading and comfortable with fasted exercise in order to do away with the massive over eating that used to sustain my cycling and recovery.

Im also convinced that doing away with sugar and carbs after exercise helps with recovery as your body has less inflammation to deal with.

What?? :facepalm:


Im doing much better in life now on a fat-protein-based diet because it's packed with more of the nutrients that are used to rebuild muscle, such as protein. The low carb foods I eat are rich in antioxidants, which generate less inflammation and free radicals than sugar/carbs. For pure efficiency's sake, fat burns "cleaner" than sugar in that it leaves less metabolic junk behind in the mitochondria.

I can only speak from my own experience but I find my body recovers better after exercise when filled up with fats and protein rather than carbs and sugar.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doo-R1eY_vI

no one is arguing Chris Froome should be on a low carb diet.

I will just repeat what I said above that elite performance doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with good long term health.   Audax UK isn't The Tour and fuelling constantly with refined sugar isn't a very good idea...and certainly isn't necessary.

The original poster was saying he couldn't fuel effectively with sugar and carbs without having bloating and stomach problems.   That's the exact issue I had and it wasn't solved by just eating different products or eating them in different quantities at different durations.   A high fat, low carb diet has helped me and many others with that exact issue with the added bonus that I lost loads of weight and became a much healthier person.   I am only offering an opinion.  Do your own research and make your own decisions until you find something that works.... but don't compare elite professional fuelling with good long term healthy diets for amateur endurance athletes.

well watch this and give your comments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoU_7E_DIxU

Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on July 21, 2017, 08:20:17 am
Thanks to everyone who's taken the time to reply. I'm intrigued by the whole Keto thing, but I just don't have the focus/resources to be able to make it work for me as my lodgers (girlfriend and 3 year old) are unlikely to want to go full on keto too. I would be intrigued to find out if there are keto devotees with families who do manage to make it work though.

The ketonauts say otherwise, but I'm absolutely convinced of the benefits of going "part-keto"; cut right back on your everyday sugar, do more fasted riding, and fuel as much exercise as you can with non-carby stuff. There is science showing that some adaptations occur, and they're beneficial. I've certainly benefitted.

<resists urge to post tedious long-distance fat-burning anecdote ... >


This ^^^^  I went fully Keto for 6 months - lost loads of weight... long distance benefits are amazing but I found it impossible to maintain with a pregnant other half and 5 year old child.   Now im just very low carb and little or no sugar wherever possible.   We eat real food, with an emphasis on low carb.  I don't eat bread ect.   I still get most of the fat adapted benefits of keto with the added benefit of not worrying about eating some carbs before and after exercise.

My two biggest issues with a traditional (BAD) diet was gut problems during distance events and massive hunger and over eating once finished.   Both of these problems have gone now.   I feel so much better on a low carb diet on a day to day basis that I don't ever see myself going back.

I find I am fat adapted enough to without carb loading and comfortable with fasted exercise in order to do away with the massive over eating that used to sustain my cycling and recovery.

Im also convinced that doing away with sugar and carbs after exercise helps with recovery as your body has less inflammation to deal with.

What?? :facepalm:


Im doing much better in life now on a fat-protein-based diet because it's packed with more of the nutrients that are used to rebuild muscle, such as protein. The low carb foods I eat are rich in antioxidants, which generate less inflammation and free radicals than sugar/carbs. For pure efficiency's sake, fat burns "cleaner" than sugar in that it leaves less metabolic junk behind in the mitochondria.

I can only speak from my own experience but I find my body recovers better after exercise when filled up with fats and protein rather than carbs and sugar.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doo-R1eY_vI

no one is arguing Chris Froome should be on a low carb diet.

I will just repeat what I said above that elite performance doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with good long term health.   Audax UK isn't The Tour and fuelling constantly with refined sugar isn't a very good idea...and certainly isn't necessary.

The original poster was saying he couldn't fuel effectively with sugar and carbs without having bloating and stomach problems.   That's the exact issue I had and it wasn't solved by just eating different products or eating them in different quantities at different durations.   A high fat, low carb diet has helped me and many others with that exact issue with the added bonus that I lost loads of weight and became a much healthier person.   I am only offering an opinion.  Do your own research and make your own decisions until you find something that works.... but don't compare elite professional fuelling with good long term healthy diets for amateur endurance athletes.

well watch this and give your comments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoU_7E_DIxU


My comments?   Well for a start the guy making that video is one of the most renouned trolls on the internet so I wouldn't be using his videos for a basis of any argument I was making.  I subscribe to him - he's hilarious but only if you take it with a pinch of salt.

He's not wrong in what he's saying - but you don't seem to get that I am not promoting a low carb diet for The Tour.

I am also not promoting no carbs.   I have them when I need them - to fuel performance.

I am not quite sure what your point is - but however many peoples opinions you share isn't going to change the fact that some of us do better with some fasted training and a low carb approach to endurance sports.  I don't see it as being very controversial or any kind of "fad" diet.   I just eat real food, with less carbs than most and im quicker on a bike than I have ever been due to the weight loss and lack of gut issues that came with the change..... if I ever get a spot in the tour then im sure my diet would have to become more carb heavy.


Title: Re: Long Distance Nutrition - Audax
Post by: Adam on July 21, 2017, 10:39:24 pm
Im also convinced that doing away with sugar and carbs after exercise helps with recovery as your body has less inflammation to deal with.

I'm sure you're right.  Some people definitely have intolerance to carbs generally.  My partner had suffered from IBS all her life - tried all sorts of options - eliminating gluten, no bread, steering clear of numerous different things in turn, allergy tests etc.  Nothing helped stop the excruciating pain & cramps, diarrhoea or constipation, but she could only reduce the symptoms.


Until she went keto, and became a different person as far as her gut was concerned.  Provided she doesn't consume for than about 30g of carbs a day, then she's fine.

I didn't find it too much of an issue adapting what things were cooked for a year or so, but I went down the keto route only after doing the research, and reading various technical books from Drs Phinney & Volek.  Never had an issue now beating lots of people on sustained ascents.

As well as not bonking, another nice plus is that your bike isn't splattered in sticky residue from gels or from what's in your drinks bottle.