Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => The Knowledge => Camping It Up => Topic started by: Blodwyn Pig on April 09, 2018, 11:22:04 am

Title: what little stove?
Post by: Blodwyn Pig on April 09, 2018, 11:22:04 am
MSR pocket rocket 2? prob only for heating water, or simple fry up, Triangia is too much bulk I think.  New to all this. ???   canister compatibiliity?
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: andrew_s on April 09, 2018, 12:40:22 pm
The small canister-top stoves are mostly pretty much the same.
You may like to consider burner size and pot supports against your pan size - a bigger burner spreads the heat out more, reducing the tendency for things to burn on, but used with a small pan you lose heat round the side.
Some have piezo ignition, which is nice when it's working, but reportedly has a tendency to break.

Ones that are different from normal that you may like to think about are...
Optimus Crux - the burner folds flat enough to allow it to fit in the recess in the base of a 220g canister, in a pan. May be slightly wobbly as a result.
MSR Superfly & Primus Duo stoves - allow the use of blue Camping Gaz canisters as well as regular threaded ones.

I prefer the remote canister/hose versions like this Alpkit Koro (https://www.alpkit.com/products/koro), which allows the canister to be turned over to combat the loss of power you get at the end of the canister or in cold weather. The preheat loop (brass-coloured tube next to the burner) is necessary to allow this - not all hose-connected stoves have it.

Threaded canisters are pretty much all interchangeable. The only exception is that Coleman canisters can occasionally not work with non-Coleman stoves - the valve is set fractionally deeper.

The blue Camping Gaz canisters don't have screw threads on the valve, and can't be used with stoves that attach using the threads. These are much more common than threaded canisters on the near continent (i.e. many/most supermarkets, rather than just outdoor shops).

If using a canister-top stove, it's useful to get some feet for the canister to assist with stability. I prefer the MSR version (http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/msr-universal-gas-canister-stand-p200306)
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Blodwyn Pig on April 09, 2018, 01:04:44 pm
what about the little Esbit ones?
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Karla on April 09, 2018, 01:34:30 pm
I recently got a Soto Amicus - similar to a Pocket Rocket but with a piezo and a larger burner, and apparently harder to blow out.  I haven't used it yet though so can't confirm any of that.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Oxford_Guy on April 09, 2018, 01:42:16 pm
MSR pocket rocket 2? prob only for heating water, or simple fry up, Triangia is too much bulk I think.  New to all this. ???   canister compatibiliity?

If you're looking for something small without a connecting house, I can highly recommend the Soto Amicus stove, I have the version without the built in piezo ignition (I didn't want it), but it's available with that, if preferred. It's surprisingly good

https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/equipment-c3/stoves-c12/all-stoves-c145/soto-amicus-stove-p7354

I actually use an MSR Wind Pro II most of the time, though, as generally prefer remote canister stoves, and it's still small enough to fit into my MSR Titan cookset:
https://www.msrgear.com/windpro-ii

Regarding canister compatibility in general, you can get adapters that let you use Camping Gaz blue cylinders on stoves with Coleman-type threads. The one for using threaded Camping Gaz cyclinders is relatively small (e.g. https://www.alpinetrek.co.uk/edelrid-ventilkartuschen-adapter/ ), the one for using the pierce-able non-threaded cylinders is much larger and heavier and must stay attached to the gas cylinder until it's empty (https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/equipment-c3/stoves-c12/stove-accessories-c132/puncture-cartridge-adaptor-p390 - looks like this one is discontinued, though).



Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Jakob W on April 09, 2018, 01:42:51 pm
Esbits are popular with squaddies, but AIUI really only useful for heating water and ration packs. IIRC the tablets aren't particularly cheap (unless HMG's picking up the tab, of course!)
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Kim on April 09, 2018, 01:50:54 pm
If you're mostly heating water, how about a Jetboil-type thing?
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: mark on April 09, 2018, 03:35:06 pm
Snow Peak Giga Power 2, with or without the piezo ignitor. The piezo ignitor on mine broke distressingly quickly. If the respective company's websites are to be believed, the Snow Peak GigaPower runs longer on a given canister than the Pocket rocket. 4 pot supports instead of 3 and an optional heat reflector/windscreen are two more nice touches for this stove. MSR (and possibly others) sell little piezo ignitors separately, which is what I now prefer. Like Andrew_s says, the MSR canister support is excellent.

The threaded canisters are becoming more common everywhere, as MSR Pocket Rockets become more ubiquitous.

Remote canisters and the option to invert the canister for liquid feed improve cold weather performance, extend burn time for a given canister, and make a close fitting wind screen a safer option. They do add cost, weight and bulk, though.

JetBoil type things boil water quickly, but they only work with the pots and pans designed for your particular Jetboil thing. The MSR Windburner system seems to do better in windy conditions than the Jetboils, from what I've heard.

The extremely cheap gas stoves with bigger burner heads frequently do not have a pressure regulator. The flame gets progressively weaker quickly, and they don't burn as long on a given canister. The regulator on the more expensive stoves (Pocket Rocket, GigaPower, Crux, etc.) maintains an even flame almost through the life of the canister, and makes for a longer burn time for a given canister.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: bikepacker on April 09, 2018, 04:04:29 pm
I never got on with the Jetboil although quick to boil it is bulky and very limited. I have a few different stoves but the canister top one I think is the best is the Fire Maple https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/equipment-c3/stoves-c12/gas-stoves-c140/fire-maple-fms-116t-gas-stove-p1268. It boils water very quickly and seems more economical with gas than the Pocket Rocket.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: andrew_s on April 09, 2018, 05:33:05 pm
4 pot supports instead of 3
That's more a disadvantage than an advantage.
Any pan will sit solidly on 3 supports, but if either the pan or the 4 supports aren't properly level, there's be wobble (same as stools or tables on uneven pub floors).
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: quixoticgeek on April 09, 2018, 05:49:34 pm

Doing a fry up on a canister top stove when half asleep is a recipe for spilling bacon on the grass...

Remote canister stoves lower the centre of gravity, reducing this risk. But at the cost of extra weight and bulk.

Personally I have 2 stoves I use regularly. A Primus Omnilite Ti. This burns everything but meths, is stable, controllable, and expensive.

The other stove I use is the Zelph Starlyte (http://www.woodgaz-stove.com/starlyte-burner-with-lid.php). This is a meths stove, simple, rugged, stupidly light. No control, but for ease of use when boiling water (frying on it would be interesting...), it's hard to beat.

J
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Butterfly on April 09, 2018, 07:07:48 pm
An alpkit kraku stove with an MSR pietzo lighter. It can store inside a pan or titanium mug with a gas canister.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Wowbagger on April 09, 2018, 11:33:32 pm
I just bought one of these and I think it's brilliant.

https://www.alpkit.com/products/koro

Haven't used it outside yet.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Kim on April 10, 2018, 01:02:01 am
I just bought one of these and I think it's brilliant.

https://www.alpkit.com/products/koro

I have a remote canister stove that was an emergency purchase on account of a car packing cockup leading to barakta tea deprivation.  Works well enough, but it seems to occupy a slightly disappointing middle ground between a stove like the Koro with a pre-heat loop, and the super-compact canister-top models.

Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Blodwyn Pig on April 10, 2018, 08:15:13 am
I am tending to favour the Alpkit Koro ATM, just wish it had a wee stand like the MSR liquigas one.but how long does the gas last, ie how many brew ups, and how many spares would you need to carry(I know, depends how long your away for) but the faff of finding a shop if you run out. ?
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: quixoticgeek on April 10, 2018, 09:01:01 am
I am tending to favour the Alpkit Koro ATM, just wish it had a wee stand like the MSR liquigas one.but how long does the gas last, ie how many brew ups, and how many spares would you need to carry(I know, depends how long your away for) but the faff of finding a shop if you run out. ?

Depends also on the temperature, wind, and air pressure.

The only stove I have stats for is the alpkit jetboil clone, that boils 500ml of water in 2 minutes on 5-6gm of fuel.

As for getting the spare canisters. It depends where you are.

The standard gas canister is not as standard as you might think, in France it is more common to find the piercable camping gaz canisters. You will also find that many supermarkets sell meths. This is one of the reasons I have a multifuel stove and a stupidly compact/light meths stove, to cover all bases.

Open a map, close your eyes, point at the map, find the nearest village, and work out what fuel you can get in that village. This gives you an idea of what stove fuel to use.

J
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Wowbagger on April 10, 2018, 10:39:19 am
You can carry an adaptor which allows Coleman-style stoves to use the continental non-pierce canisters.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: quixoticgeek on April 10, 2018, 10:41:04 am
You can carry an adaptor which allows Coleman-style stoves to use the continental non-pierce canisters.

At which point your adaptor weighs the same as your stove...

J
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Wowbagger on April 10, 2018, 10:42:13 am
Possibly, but since they are both so light it's a bit like taking a full rather than a half-full canister with you.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Paul H on April 10, 2018, 12:04:27 pm
If you're mostly heating water, how about a Jetboil-type thing?
I like my Jetboil, not the lightest, smallest, fastest, but for my use just so totally faff free and convenient.  That it all fits together, inc fuel and tea bags in a clean package means it often fills the space previously occupied by a flask.  That it locks together means I don't even need a level surface to use it and holding on to it in operation acts as a great hand warmer.  When considering weight and size, efficiency also needs to be taken into account, the design allows me to take a smaller canister than I used to for the same use.
IMO it is just a water boiler, I've tried to use it for other stuff, even buying the pan adaptor and group pot, they were disappointing and have sat unused since their one and only tour. I wouldn't like to attempt a fry up with one, I'm sure it's possible but there's better options if that's on the menu.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Karla on April 10, 2018, 12:23:38 pm
In the US and canada, what is gas canister availability like? 

Types I'm aware of are:
Threaded valves - as far as I can tell these should all be compatible
Unthreaded resealable Campingaz valves
The old pierce-type campingaz cylinders

How likely am I to come across each in North America?

Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: αdαmsκι on April 10, 2018, 12:39:58 pm
We managed to find the propane / isopropane / butane gas canisters with a screw thread without too much difficult in western Northern America. These are the ones I'm talking about these (https://www.cadetdirect.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/500x500/8e31f3fa6a25b50c1bfa9c68940c11e0/p/r/primus_cartridges-all_500.jpg)
(Click if the image doesn't appear.) (https://www.cadetdirect.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/500x500/8e31f3fa6a25b50c1bfa9c68940c11e0/p/r/primus_cartridges-all_500.jpg)

This is one of the the chains we used when buying those canisters: https://www.big5sportinggoods.com/store/

In Canada we probably used the MEC store in Vancouver: https://www.mec.ca/en/products/camping-and-hiking/camp-kitchen/stoves-fuel-and-fire/fuel/c/1283
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: andrew_s on April 10, 2018, 12:41:11 pm
I am tending to favour the Alpkit Koro ATM, just wish it had a wee stand like the MSR liquigas one.but how long does the gas last, ie how many brew ups, and how many spares would you need to carry(I know, depends how long your away for) but the faff of finding a shop if you run out. ?
I get about 5-6 days out of a full 220g canister, based on a mug of tea with the breakfast muesli, a mug before & after the evening meal, and the evening meal (typically pasta-based, using a pot cosy (https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/sale-c872/other-c879/antigravitygear-pot-cosy-p107)* rather than simmering the pasta)
I carry the canister in use, and a spare, relying on finding a replacement between the original running out and the spare running out.

* pot cosies are made from Thermawrap (https://www.wickes.co.uk/Thermawrap-General-Purpose-Foil-Wrap-1000mm-x-7m/p/145707), which can be bought in large rolls from Wickes, B&Q etc for around £25, or small quantities suitable for a couple of pots from backpackinglight.co.uk for around £7 (plus gaffer tape). If you've got 8-10 minute pasta, bring it to the boils, then put the pot in the cosy and it will be ready in 13-15 mins.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Whitestone on April 11, 2018, 07:42:58 am
The threaded canisters are also available in hardware stores and builders supplies - they are commonly used for things like small blow torches as used in plumbing.

Generally how many days' usage do you want and how quick do you want to cook/boil things? A simple homemade meths stove will boil 500ml of water in 7 mins on something like 10ml of fuel. Costs nowt apart from time to make it and weighs next to nowt, OK, 10g, you don't need specialised canisters to hold the fuel. Everything will pack in to a 400ml mug. A bit more work in very cold weather but I've used one in -6C.

I've lots of stoves from the Saturn V like MSR GSK all the way down to Pocket Rocket clones and the above meths stoves.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Moleman76 on April 11, 2018, 08:07:53 am
there are a number of "cat food can", beer can, etc. DIY stoves out there ...
https://www.thesodacanstove.com/alcohol-stove/cat-food-can-stove/index.php (https://www.thesodacanstove.com/alcohol-stove/cat-food-can-stove/index.php) is just one of many sources.

Along with this, you would want a fuel container with the measured dispenser tube on the side.

These are really best just for boiling water.  Very little heat output regulation, etc., but fun to make and play with.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Whitestone on April 11, 2018, 11:47:28 am
A bit rushed on my last post as I was about head off to work.

Yes, the alcohol stoves are best if you simply want to boil water and rehydrate stuff. There are some commercial and homemade versions that allow simmering but I've not used those. The time taken to boil a given amount of water isn't really a problem as you can usually do something else whilst the stove is doing its thing. They also take a bit of getting used to, they aren't just screw burner on to canister, turn on and light. With experience you get to know how much fuel to put in the stove to boil a given amount of water taking in to account ambient temperature and the like, if I get it wrong then usually the water's close enough to boiling to make no difference or I've a few seconds of extra burn at the end.

The Trangia was one of the few stoves I never used when young and when climbing but that was mainly because of the bulk of the associated cookset.

I'm usually short of space when touring/bikepacking so use either a homemade beer-can stove or one of the pocket rocket clones. I'm also not doing any fancy cooking, just a brew and rehydrating something in a bag which cuts down on washing up  ;D  One of this year's "tasks" is to try a few basic one pot meals.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Kim on April 11, 2018, 02:13:22 pm
there are a number of "cat food can", beer can, etc. DIY stoves out there ...
https://www.thesodacanstove.com/alcohol-stove/cat-food-can-stove/index.php (https://www.thesodacanstove.com/alcohol-stove/cat-food-can-stove/index.php) is just one of many sources.

Along with this, you would want a fuel container with the measured dispenser tube on the side.

Seems like a false economy compared to a proper Trangia-style burner, which you can snuff out and seal with the unburnt fuel inside it, so no need for titrating precise amounts of fuel, or burning off the excess.  It also has simmer control.

At which point you should consider the Trangia Triangle or Trangia Mini.  (Proper Trangias are brilliant for all sorts of reasons, but well outside the scope of 'little stove'.)


Quote
These are really best just for boiling water.  Very little heat output regulation, etc., but fun to make and play with.

Agreed.  Fine for fun or as a one-off.

Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: SA_SA_SA_SA on April 11, 2018, 02:54:31 pm
there are a number of "cat food can", beer can, etc. DIY stoves out there ........
Along with this, you would want a fuel container with the measured dispenser tube on the side.
Seems like a false economy compared to a proper Trangia-style burner, which you can snuff out and seal with the unburnt fuel inside it, so no need for titrating precise amounts of fuel, or burning off the excess.  ....
At which point you should consider the Trangia Triangle or Trangia Mini..  ...
But home made water boiler stoves like a caldera c(l)one* are quite predictable in the amount of meths needed to boil a given amount of water in given conditions. Or you can make a single wall 'chimney style' stove that is empty-able (Trail Designs 12-10 is double wall but someone claimed that is unnecessary...after they broke it leaving only the inner... :)  ).
I drew lines on a small Nalgene bottle for measurement but an alternative is to collect medicine  measuring tubs.

I thought Trangia only recommended meths storage in burner when camping, but to empty it when packing for travelling (but I suppose their worries about leaks could be avoided by  packing separately outside pans).

A Triangle and windshield and pan/mug is a lot heavier than a metal mug and cone stove (eg 200g for mine) but does allow simmering (easier than on real trangia 27 IMO).  The triangle at least has some built in wind resistance: the mini kit  just seemed missing a windshield to me.

*Home made version of Trail Designs Caldera cone who are fine about DIY for own use**
https://www.traildesigns.com/ (https://www.traildesigns.com/)
**Note added to calm USA(BPL) readers who sometimes get upset at DIY of patented things due to US patents forbidding private use unless permitted by holder.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Kim on April 11, 2018, 03:00:46 pm
I thought Trangia only recommended meths storage in burner when camping, but to empty it when packing for travelling (but I suppose their worries about leaks could be avoided by  packing separately outside pans).

They do, but in practice I've never found it to be a problem.  Particularly if you seal the burner while it's still warm (but not hot enough to damage the O-ring) so any leak would tend to be of air *into* the burner.  Ziplock bag for belt-and-braces.


Quote
A Triangle and windshield and pan/mug is a lot heavier than a metal mug and cone stove (eg 200g for mine) but does allow simmering (easier than on real trangia 27 IMO).  The triangle at least has some built in wind resistance: the mini kit  just seemed missing a windshield to me.

Yes, I think the Triangle is a much better design than the Mini.

Although personally I'm with the OP, and prefer a little gas stove if I'm trying to keep the weight/volume down.  Trangia 27 for real cooking when I'm not.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: mark on April 11, 2018, 03:26:02 pm
In the US and canada, what is gas canister availability like? 

Types I'm aware of are:
Threaded valves - as far as I can tell these should all be compatible
Unthreaded resealable Campingaz valves
The old pierce-type campingaz cylinders

How likely am I to come across each in North America?



Threaded valve (MSR, Snow Peak, Primus, JetBoil, et.al.) are very common, but I've heard of people being unable to find them in really small towns in the middle of nowhere. Any specialist hiking/climbing/camping store will have them. Wal-Mart sells a Coleman canister with this thread, but the fuel quality is apparently inferior.

Campingaz stopped importing to the US several years ago, so forget the unthreaded/pierce-type cartridges.

Where do you plan on going?
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: bikepacker on April 11, 2018, 03:47:51 pm
Coleman and Camping Gaz are part of the same company, have been for many years. Maybe that is why Camping Gaz products stopped being imported into the USA.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: mark on April 11, 2018, 03:56:50 pm
Coleman and Camping Gaz are part of the same company, have been for many years. Maybe that is why Camping Gaz products stopped being imported into the USA.

Are Coleman products still sold in Europe? I remember seeing them here and there, but that was a few years back.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Karla on April 11, 2018, 04:31:00 pm
In the US and canada, what is gas canister availability like? 

Types I'm aware of are:
Threaded valves - as far as I can tell these should all be compatible
Unthreaded resealable Campingaz valves
The old pierce-type campingaz cylinders

How likely am I to come across each in North America?



Threaded valve (MSR, Snow Peak, Primus, JetBoil, et.al.) are very common, but I've heard of people being unable to find them in really small towns in the middle of nowhere. Any specialist hiking/climbing/camping store will have them. Wal-Mart sells a Coleman canister with this thread, but the fuel quality is apparently inferior.

Campingaz stopped importing to the US several years ago, so forget the unthreaded/pierce-type cartridges.

Thanks, that's useful.  I spent years using one of these (https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.winwood-outdoor.co.uk%2Facatalog%2Fcampingaz_Twister270_medium.jpg&f=1) stoves and was a bit perturbed when I started looking for something more lightweight and finding they all had a different thread.  Clearly I was behind the times!

Quote
Where do you plan on going?

Here, more or less.

(https://lostbyway.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/rideToChina_wmc_small-1024x356.png)
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: mark on April 11, 2018, 04:42:11 pm
Looks very cool. https://www.rei.com has a store in Winter Park, FL. Order stuff online, pick it up in the store when you arrive, no shipping charges. They've got ~150 stores in the US, some of them are bound to be on your route. Lots of camping/backpacking stuff, more and more cycle touring stuff. The flagship stores are huge, the others not nearly as big.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Karla on April 11, 2018, 06:13:42 pm
Good call on the Miami REI, thanks  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: bikepacker on April 11, 2018, 06:29:54 pm
Coleman and Camping Gaz are part of the same company, have been for many years. Maybe that is why Camping Gaz products stopped being imported into the USA.

Are Coleman products still sold in Europe? I remember seeing them here and there, but that was a few years back.

Yes Coleman gas, stoves and tents are still available.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: quixoticgeek on April 11, 2018, 10:44:53 pm

Here, more or less.

(https://lostbyway.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/rideToChina_wmc_small-1024x356.png)

Given that route can I very strongly suggest that you *DO NOT* go for a canister top screw on stove (pocket rocket et al). You will find issues with finding fuel.

Go for a multifuel stove that allows you to screw on a canister too. MSR make a whisperlite stove that will work on liquid fuel (petrol mainly), and also canister gas. This is the most affordable of the multifuel stoves. Then you get into the MSR Dragonfly, lovely, burns everything, sounds like a jet engine, or the Primus stoves. The Primus Omnilite Ti is what I went for, it's the lightest multifuel stove, it burns petrol, diesel, av gas, kerosene, everything short of meths and vodka. If you can't justify the price of the titanium version, the omnifuel is much the same, but heavier. Note both primus stoves are loud, but they sell a silent adapter that screws on the top and improves things greatly.

I hear a lot "I've always used stove x, with fuel y, and I've never had any problem finding fuel for it." And I'm sure for many that is the case. For many that is not the case.

My housemate was going hiking in Northern Italy with his mum. I offered to lend my MSR Whisperlite stove. His mum said "it's fine, I have a gas stove, I can get gas everywhere".  10 days later they get back. Turns out they couldn't find the right gas anywhere on their trip, and ended up doing all their cooking on the tiny hex cooker my housemate had forgotten to remove from his bag before packing.

"You can get meths in every supermarket" I was told, when cycling in the Benelux. Yes, you probably can. The problem was I couldn't find a supermarket anywhere on my 130km 3 day bike tour... I ate cold food...

"Petrol is available everywhere" I was told. I got to slovakia to meet some friends, they had bought cars, diesel cars. I couldn't burn anything they had in the jerry cans of fuel. Nnnngh.

Yes, these are all just anecdotes. But the plural of anecdote is data, and if you are going to travel off the beaten track to middle of nowhere. You want to keep your options open. Get a multi fuel stove, and then you don't have to be picky or worry about gas canister threads. If you want to be really paranoid, in addition, take a long something like the zelph starlite stove, it's tiny, fits in a pocket, and can be forgotten about right upto the moment the only thing you can find by way of fuel in a tiny village in the mountains, is isoproponal alcohol from the chemist...

Thanks

J

Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Kim on April 11, 2018, 10:58:42 pm
[...] Yes, these are all just anecdotes. But the plural of anecdote is data, and if you are going to travel off the beaten track to middle of nowhere. You want to keep your options open.

This seems like a good time to mention http://fuel.papo-art.com/ which is the sort of thing that's worth downloading to your phone or other portable computing device and saving for times of need, if not exporting to Dead Tree Format (which is non-volatile and can - in extremis - also be used to assist with fuel ignition).
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Karla on April 11, 2018, 11:15:21 pm

Here, more or less.

(https://lostbyway.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/rideToChina_wmc_small-1024x356.png)

Given that route can I very strongly suggest that you *DO NOT* go for a canister top screw on stove (pocket rocket et al). You will find issues with finding fuel.

Go for a multifuel stove that allows you to screw on a canister too. MSR make a whisperlite stove that will work on liquid fuel (petrol mainly), and also canister gas. This is the most affordable of the multifuel stoves. Then you get into the MSR Dragonfly, lovely, burns everything, sounds like a jet engine, or the Primus stoves. The Primus Omnilite Ti is what I went for, it's the lightest multifuel stove, it burns petrol, diesel, av gas, kerosene, everything short of meths and vodka. If you can't justify the price of the titanium version, the omnifuel is much the same, but heavier. Note both primus stoves are loud, but they sell a silent adapter that screws on the top and improves things greatly.

I hear a lot "I've always used stove x, with fuel y, and I've never had any problem finding fuel for it." And I'm sure for many that is the case. For many that is not the case.

My housemate was going hiking in Northern Italy with his mum. I offered to lend my MSR Whisperlite stove. His mum said "it's fine, I have a gas stove, I can get gas everywhere".  10 days later they get back. Turns out they couldn't find the right gas anywhere on their trip, and ended up doing all their cooking on the tiny hex cooker my housemate had forgotten to remove from his bag before packing.

"You can get meths in every supermarket" I was told, when cycling in the Benelux. Yes, you probably can. The problem was I couldn't find a supermarket anywhere on my 130km 3 day bike tour... I ate cold food...

"Petrol is available everywhere" I was told. I got to slovakia to meet some friends, they had bought cars, diesel cars. I couldn't burn anything they had in the jerry cans of fuel. Nnnngh.

Yes, these are all just anecdotes. But the plural of anecdote is data, and if you are going to travel off the beaten track to middle of nowhere. You want to keep your options open. Get a multi fuel stove, and then you don't have to be picky or worry about gas canister threads. If you want to be really paranoid, in addition, take a long something like the zelph starlite stove, it's tiny, fits in a pocket, and can be forgotten about right upto the moment the only thing you can find by way of fuel in a tiny village in the mountains, is isoproponal alcohol from the chemist...

Thanks

J

I had a whisperlite but sold it  ;D

Just what I needed while I was in the middle of nowhere in Central Asia*, but heavy, bulky, dirty, complicated and expensive whenever I'm not.  I might have to reevaluate when I get to China, but I've got 9,000 miles of Europe, US and Canada to do first, and I'm sure my nice little gas stove will do me just fine.  If I run out at some point, you know what?  That's okay.  It isn't the arctic and it isn't the Himalayas, I don't need a stove for drinking water so I don't need an uninterruptible supply of cooking heat.

*Well actually, not really.  I used it sometimes when I was there last year, but not enough to justify carrying it for the two weeks I was there.  If I'd had a longer trip than that, sure, but eating cold food for two nights wouldn't have been an unbearable hardship for the sake of carrying 500g of extra stove up many, many, many mountains.  I probably wouldn't have taken it if I was *just* going for the trip, but several items in my kit were there on a test run for the forthcoming trip.  The Whisperlite got exchanged for a smaller, lighter, cleaner gas stove.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on April 11, 2018, 11:42:28 pm
Ed Pratt, he who is unicycling round the world, has a kit breakdown video. Can't remember what stove he uses but it is worthwhile checking out his kit. He fits it into very little space. Go look him up on youtube. It is a multifuel type stove.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: andrew_s on April 12, 2018, 12:40:00 am
Given that route can I very strongly suggest that you *DO NOT* go for a canister top screw on stove (pocket rocket et al). You will find issues with finding fuel.

Go for a multifuel stove that allows you to screw on a canister too.

Rumour would have it that there's a pretty high chance of failing to get a multifuel stove or its fuel container through airport security these days.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Kim on April 12, 2018, 12:49:50 am
Rumour would have it that there's a pretty high chance of failing to get a multifuel stove or its fuel container through airport security these days.

Last advice I heard on that matter was that you can improve your chances by making it smell as Not Like Fuel as possible.  Wash traces of paraffin away from the burner with alcohol, clean the fuel bottle out and give it a deliberate taint of extra-smelly shampoo or lemony fresh Household Cleaning Product™, and pack it without a lid attached, that sort of thing.

No personal experience, and I wouldn't like to rely on it.  But that goes for most aspects of air travel, tbh.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on April 12, 2018, 08:38:39 am
I wouldn't like to set the plane on fire though! Worth noting (or maybe not) that it's also illegal (in the UK at least) to take fuel, both liquid and gas, on trains. Probably no one's going to know about it though, unless the train is Eurostar.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on April 12, 2018, 08:45:24 am

Here, more or less.

(https://lostbyway.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/rideToChina_wmc_small-1024x356.png)

Given that route can I very strongly suggest that you *DO NOT* go for a canister top screw on stove (pocket rocket et al). You will find issues with finding fuel.

Go for a multifuel stove that allows you to screw on a canister too. MSR make a whisperlite stove that will work on liquid fuel (petrol mainly), and also canister gas. This is the most affordable of the multifuel stoves. Then you get into the MSR Dragonfly, lovely, burns everything, sounds like a jet engine, or the Primus stoves. The Primus Omnilite Ti is what I went for, it's the lightest multifuel stove, it burns petrol, diesel, av gas, kerosene, everything short of meths and vodka. If you can't justify the price of the titanium version, the omnifuel is much the same, but heavier. Note both primus stoves are loud, but they sell a silent adapter that screws on the top and improves things greatly.

I hear a lot "I've always used stove x, with fuel y, and I've never had any problem finding fuel for it." And I'm sure for many that is the case. For many that is not the case.

My housemate was going hiking in Northern Italy with his mum. I offered to lend my MSR Whisperlite stove. His mum said "it's fine, I have a gas stove, I can get gas everywhere".  10 days later they get back. Turns out they couldn't find the right gas anywhere on their trip, and ended up doing all their cooking on the tiny hex cooker my housemate had forgotten to remove from his bag before packing.

"You can get meths in every supermarket" I was told, when cycling in the Benelux. Yes, you probably can. The problem was I couldn't find a supermarket anywhere on my 130km 3 day bike tour... I ate cold food...

"Petrol is available everywhere" I was told. I got to slovakia to meet some friends, they had bought cars, diesel cars. I couldn't burn anything they had in the jerry cans of fuel. Nnnngh.

Yes, these are all just anecdotes. But the plural of anecdote is data, and if you are going to travel off the beaten track to middle of nowhere. You want to keep your options open. Get a multi fuel stove, and then you don't have to be picky or worry about gas canister threads. If you want to be really paranoid, in addition, take a long something like the zelph starlite stove, it's tiny, fits in a pocket, and can be forgotten about right upto the moment the only thing you can find by way of fuel in a tiny village in the mountains, is isoproponal alcohol from the chemist...

Thanks

J
Strikes me that a lot of this depends on your definition of "available". 130km through Benelux without seeing a supermarket? Sure, but you could easily have found one if you'd been prepared to deviate a little.

On a slightly different note, Italy is apparently a country where LPG is widely available at petrol stations. It's a shame camping cannisters are not refillable like vehicle tanks; the thing I don't like about using gas is putting all those empties in the bin!
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Kim on April 12, 2018, 01:35:55 pm
Strikes me that a lot of this depends on your definition of "available". 130km through Benelux without seeing a supermarket? Sure, but you could easily have found one if you'd been prepared to deviate a little.

Similarly, I've observed that you can't get water in the East Midlands on a Sunday...

 
Quote
On a slightly different note, Italy is apparently a country where LPG is widely available at petrol stations. It's a shame camping cannisters are not refillable like vehicle tanks; the thing I don't like about using gas is putting all those empties in the bin!

They probably are, given sufficiently naughty plumbing...  Not the sort of thing that's practical to carry on a long tour, but might be viable for re-using the same cartridge on multiple weekends or S24Os.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: andrew_s on April 12, 2018, 01:49:39 pm
Refilling canisters has certainly been done, and there are discussions & advice on the web if you google.
I gather that the awkwardnesses are getting hold of anything other than pure butane at a price that makes it worth while, and that the valves aren't made for long term use, limiting the number of refills.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Kim on April 12, 2018, 01:52:43 pm
Yes.  It seems to me that if you're going to use pure butane, you can just use those catering stove cartridges (I recently bought a pack of 4 for £3.99) with anna daptor and suitable care and attention vis cartridge orientation.  They work fine as long as it's not properly cold, especially when combined with a liquid-feed stove so you don't have to boil the liquid butane in the cartridge.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Karla on April 12, 2018, 03:38:04 pm
<snip>
Strikes me that a lot of this depends on your definition of "available". 130km through Benelux without seeing a supermarket? Sure, but you could easily have found one if you'd been prepared to deviate a little.

Also, 130 km in three days?  That's 27 miles a day.  I guess if that's your grand total daily distance, you don't have so much flexibility to deviate a few miles either side of your route to go to the shops.  If you pack lighter and cover larger daily distances, you might find your availability problems disappear.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: LEE on April 12, 2018, 03:43:32 pm

Doing a fry up on a canister top stove when half asleep is a recipe for spilling bacon on the grass...

Remote canister stoves lower the centre of gravity, reducing this risk. But at the cost of extra weight and bulk.

This. 

Cannister-top stoves are simply crap on the sort of ground where 99.9999% of people need to use a camping stove.

I swear by the remote canister tripod style (similar to Wowbagger's Alpkit, though mine is steel - Campingaz). Rock solid for kettles and even large pans.  They are also easy to shelter from cross-winds.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: fuaran on April 12, 2018, 04:01:34 pm
For shorter trips, easy enough just to carry enough fuel with you. You can take a gas cylinder big enough for a weeks cooking, then no worries about finding somewhere to buy it along the way.
Unless you want to make dozens of cups of tea per day...
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on April 12, 2018, 04:07:01 pm

Doing a fry up on a canister top stove when half asleep is a recipe for spilling bacon on the grass...

Remote canister stoves lower the centre of gravity, reducing this risk. But at the cost of extra weight and bulk.

This. 

Cannister-top stoves are simply crap on the sort of ground where 99.9999% of people need to use a camping stove.

I swear by the remote canister tripod style (similar to Wowbagger's Alpkit, though mine is steel - Campingaz). Rock solid for kettles and even large pans.  They are also easy to shelter from cross-winds.
Having proved that it is possible to simultaneously scald grass with a potful of boiling water and set it on fire by tipping over a lit stove, I've bought a stand for my cannister-top stove. It's just three plastic legs which the cannister sits on. Haven't had an opportunity to use it yet, but it was only £6 as opposed to eg £45 for the Alpkit remote cannister stove linked to above.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: andrew_s on April 12, 2018, 07:05:34 pm
I've bought a stand for my cannister-top stove. It's just three plastic legs which the cannister sits on. Haven't had an opportunity to use it yet, but it was only £6 as opposed to eg £45 for the Alpkit remote cannister stove linked to above.
Different brands of canister vary in diameter, so some will fit better than others, with poorly fitting canisters either not being gripped properly, or the legs not properly spread out (eg  2x105°+ 150°, rather than 3x120°).

That's why I recommended the MSR version up above; one of the grippers is spring loaded so it grips all canisters reasonably.

I'd suggest visiting some shops and trying a few out, so at least you start off with a canister that fits.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: nikki on April 12, 2018, 07:37:37 pm
using a pot cosy (https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/sale-c872/other-c879/antigravitygear-pot-cosy-p107)*

* pot cosies are made from Thermawrap (https://www.wickes.co.uk/Thermawrap-General-Purpose-Foil-Wrap-1000mm-x-7m/p/145707), which can be bought in large rolls from Wickes, B&Q etc for around £25, or small quantities suitable for a couple of pots from backpackinglight.co.uk for around £7 (plus gaffer tape). If you've got 8-10 minute pasta, bring it to the boils, then put the pot in the cosy and it will be ready in 13-15 mins.

Ooh, having previously spent an inordinate amount of time waiting for rice to cook, that looks like an interesting approach. I'm curious to give it a go, having watched the how-to video (https://www.antigravitygear.com/shop/product-category/antigravitygear-pot-cozy-kit/) and noting that Toolstation do a small roll of ThermaWrap for a tenner...
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Kim on April 12, 2018, 07:45:08 pm
using a pot cosy (https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/sale-c872/other-c879/antigravitygear-pot-cosy-p107)*

* pot cosies are made from Thermawrap (https://www.wickes.co.uk/Thermawrap-General-Purpose-Foil-Wrap-1000mm-x-7m/p/145707), which can be bought in large rolls from Wickes, B&Q etc for around £25, or small quantities suitable for a couple of pots from backpackinglight.co.uk for around £7 (plus gaffer tape). If you've got 8-10 minute pasta, bring it to the boils, then put the pot in the cosy and it will be ready in 13-15 mins.

Ooh, having previously spent an inordinate amount of time waiting for rice to cook, that looks like an interesting approach. I'm curious to give it a go, having watched the how-to video (https://www.antigravitygear.com/shop/product-category/antigravitygear-pot-cozy-kit/) and noting that Toolstation do a small roll of ThermaWrap for a tenner...

You don't actually need anything magic and insulaty for rice.  Bring it to the boil, put the lid on it, cook something meaty or otherwise in the 15 minute range and then maybe factor in a bonus 30 seconds to bring the lukewarm but by now miraculously fully cooked rice back up to temperature.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on April 12, 2018, 08:05:06 pm
I've bought a stand for my cannister-top stove. It's just three plastic legs which the cannister sits on. Haven't had an opportunity to use it yet, but it was only £6 as opposed to eg £45 for the Alpkit remote cannister stove linked to above.
Different brands of canister vary in diameter, so some will fit better than others, with poorly fitting canisters either not being gripped properly, or the legs not properly spread out (eg  2x105°+ 150°, rather than 3x120°).

That's why I recommended the MSR version up above; one of the grippers is spring loaded so it grips all canisters reasonably.

I'd suggest visiting some shops and trying a few out, so at least you start off with a canister that fits.
I wondered about different cannisters being different diameters so asked when I bought it – and was assured that all brands of the same size are the same diameter. Well, use will tell.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Oxford_Guy on April 13, 2018, 11:19:46 pm
I've bought a stand for my cannister-top stove. It's just three plastic legs which the cannister sits on. Haven't had an opportunity to use it yet, but it was only £6 as opposed to eg £45 for the Alpkit remote cannister stove linked to above.
Different brands of canister vary in diameter, so some will fit better than others, with poorly fitting canisters either not being gripped properly, or the legs not properly spread out (eg  2x105°+ 150°, rather than 3x120°).

That's why I recommended the MSR version up above; one of the grippers is spring loaded so it grips all canisters reasonably.

I'd suggest visiting some shops and trying a few out, so at least you start off with a canister that fits.
I wondered about different cannisters being different diameters so asked when I bought it – and was assured that all brands of the same size are the same diameter. Well, use will tell.

That's not always the case from my experience
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: mark on April 14, 2018, 02:32:19 am
Would it be simpler to just plan on changing stoves a few times during your trip? Campingaz or alcohol for the European leg, Coleman fuel or multi-fuel for the North American leg, and whatever is most common in Asia. If nothing else, this would save you the trouble of arguing with airline security people about your stove every time you got on a plane.

Regarding MSR and other multi-fuel stoves: MSR's website states that their stoves will last longer and run better if they are used with white gas/Coleman fuel (or MSR's own rather expensive fuel). My experience is that running unleaded auto fuel in a MSR stove results in a fair bit of smoke and soot, while running Coleman fuel results in a much cleaner cooking experience. I've also found that US filling station owners/managers are getting pickier about what type of container their customers put fuel in.

One more vote for the MSR canister tripod over the plastic models. It's much sturdier and, as Oxford_Guy points out, canister size is not quite as consistent as the shop staff would have you believe.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Karla on April 14, 2018, 11:11:37 am
Was that aimed at me mark?  That's basically the plan: exist on gas until Anchorage, then if I can't get it in Asia, buy a local petrol stove.  Then again, food in the sticks in China might well turn out to be cheap enough that I don't need to cook - it'll be something to find out on the ground.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: rogerzilla on September 23, 2018, 12:03:33 pm
I have a little titanium canister top stove that is very powerful and tiny.  However, anything running on butane/propane mix is hopeless in cold weather, by which I mean almost any summer morning.  It'll work wirh a fresh canister until the propane has boiled off, then dwindle to almost nothing.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Kim on September 23, 2018, 02:42:27 pm
I have a little titanium canister top stove that is very powerful and tiny.  However, anything running on butane/propane mix is hopeless in cold weather, by which I mean almost any summer morning.  It'll work wirh a fresh canister until the propane has boiled off, then dwindle to almost nothing.

The best work-around for this is a stove with a pre-heat loop, but that adds bulk.

Or stand the cartridge in a container of water.  Tap-cold water is a much more effective way of delivering heat to the canister than chilly air.  But that adds even more bulk.

I've got one of those little titanium stoves, and it works nicely as a one-shot roadside brew-up device.  For camping, I either bring something better for actual cooking, or don't bother with a stove.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Butterfly on September 23, 2018, 06:29:03 pm
We have pads like a round hand warmer that work to warm the canister. An actual hand warmer might do the job as well. Or putting it in a sock in your sleeping bag.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: Karla on September 23, 2018, 08:23:15 pm

Here, more or less.

(https://lostbyway.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/rideToChina_wmc_small-1024x356.png)

Given that route can I very strongly suggest that you *DO NOT* go for a canister top screw on stove (pocket rocket et al). You will find issues with finding fuel.

Go for a multifuel stove that allows you to screw on a canister too. MSR make a whisperlite stove that will work on liquid fuel (petrol mainly), and also canister gas. This is the most affordable of the multifuel stoves. Then you get into the MSR Dragonfly, lovely, burns everything, sounds like a jet engine, or the Primus stoves. The Primus Omnilite Ti is what I went for, it's the lightest multifuel stove, it burns petrol, diesel, av gas, kerosene, everything short of meths and vodka. If you can't justify the price of the titanium version, the omnifuel is much the same, but heavier. Note both primus stoves are loud, but they sell a silent adapter that screws on the top and improves things greatly.

I hear a lot "I've always used stove x, with fuel y, and I've never had any problem finding fuel for it." And I'm sure for many that is the case. For many that is not the case.

Two continents, four months and nine thousand miles in, do you know how many times I've had to go off-route to find the correct gas cylinder?  Once, with a round trip distance of fifteen miles.  I probably didn't need to make that diversion either, I was just being a bit paranoid about how long my cylinder would last.  I probably did need to make that diversion to stock up on food.

Is fifteen miles every four months an acceptable cost for the advantages given by a gas stove?  That's for the individual camper to decide of course, but if you aren't prepared to accept that level of risk then you should probably switch sports and take up tiddlywinks.  Personally I'm confident that my run of luck will hold out through Japan, so I'll be into a five figure mileage before I have to consider switching stoves in China.  At that point my £30 Soto gas stove will have been well worth it.
Title: Re: what little stove?
Post by: rogerzilla on September 23, 2018, 09:37:56 pm
White gas stoves work in any conditions but they are not small or light.  Also, if you run them on available-everywhere petrol rather than nice clean naptha (Coleman fuel, Primus Powerfueĺ, Aspen 4, panel wipe) they stink and clog.  The SVEA 123 is probably the smallest but ir's a PITA to get going, with no pump.