Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Audax => Topic started by: Blade on July 07, 2018, 03:35:58 pm

Title: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Blade on July 07, 2018, 03:35:58 pm
Had a conversation, over a beer or two, with a friend who's ridden Audaxes for over 20 years.

I mentioned that somebody that I knew was planning on doing a BP event on an electrically assisted bike.

My friend was not happy about anybody using pedalling assistance on any sort of Audax, even when I brought up the fact that it was only a BP.

Anybody else have an opinion concerning e-bike use on an Audax?
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Kim on July 07, 2018, 03:42:16 pm
Audax UK does, and I think it's perfectly reasonable.

"You can ride but we won't validate your brevet."  AIUI
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Chris S on July 07, 2018, 03:49:44 pm
Indeed: 12.1 Machines: Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles (EAPCs) may be ridden but such rides
are not eligible for validation
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: whosatthewheel on July 07, 2018, 03:54:40 pm
I don't see an issue in allowing them... there is an issue with validating brevets obtained with an e-bike, especially those brevets potentially leading to awards.

I suspect battery life combined with "dead mass" would limit their use to BP only regardless of AUK rules.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Kim on July 07, 2018, 03:59:32 pm
I suspect battery life combined with "dead mass" would limit their use to BP only regardless of AUK rules.

I believe JennyB OTP has form for this sort of thing.  At the current state of technology, on longer rides it becomes a non-trivial challenge in battery management, not dissimilar from the challenge of managing sleep.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: whosatthewheel on July 07, 2018, 05:01:51 pm
I suspect battery life combined with "dead mass" would limit their use to BP only regardless of AUK rules.

I believe JennyB OTP has form for this sort of thing.  At the current state of technology, on longer rides it becomes a non-trivial challenge in battery management, not dissimilar from the challenge of managing sleep.

Back of an envelope calculation, more or less you get 500Wh on a modern ebike battery. So at best, you can benefit from some meaningful help for about 5 hours.
Assuming someone who uses an e-bike is not a racing snake, it is realistic to think of a moving time for a 200 BR of about 10 hours... so half of the time the ebike helps, the other half hinders. With a wise use of the battery only on the inclines, it might still be an advantage. As the distance increases, I suspect it's more a hassle than anything... unless charging points become available
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Whitedown Man on July 07, 2018, 05:09:52 pm
You can’t charge one from a dynamo?
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: whosatthewheel on July 07, 2018, 05:30:19 pm
You can’t charge one from a dynamo?

That would be silly... considering no process is 100% efficient, you will spend more power to charge it than you get in return... also, I suspect charging a 15 Ah battery with a 36 V output with a dynamo might take some time.

To give you an idea... it's got the same charge of 30-40  modern smartphones
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Kim on July 07, 2018, 06:00:11 pm
I suspect battery life combined with "dead mass" would limit their use to BP only regardless of AUK rules.

I believe JennyB OTP has form for this sort of thing.  At the current state of technology, on longer rides it becomes a non-trivial challenge in battery management, not dissimilar from the challenge of managing sleep.

Back of an envelope calculation, more or less you get 500Wh on a modern ebike battery. So at best, you can benefit from some meaningful help for about 5 hours.
Assuming someone who uses an e-bike is not a racing snake, it is realistic to think of a moving time for a 200 BR of about 10 hours... so half of the time the ebike helps, the other half hinders. With a wise use of the battery only on the inclines, it might still be an advantage. As the distance increases, I suspect it's more a hassle than anything... unless charging points become available

And then you have to consider the tradeoff of how much charger weight you want to carry vs how much time you spend charging, and what the optimal battery pack size is.  And how that all fits in with sleeping, eating and the route.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: whosatthewheel on July 07, 2018, 06:29:05 pm


And then you have to consider the tradeoff of how much charger weight you want to carry vs how much time you spend charging, and what the optimal battery pack size is.  And how that all fits in with sleeping, eating and the route.

True... although dedicated charging points would be more sophisticated than a normal 240 V socket, providing the correct voltage (around 5 V) already... so a simple cable would be enough.

I don't see a future in randonneuring, but in touring definitively...
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Kim on July 07, 2018, 06:56:07 pm
True... although dedicated charging points would be more sophisticated than a normal 240 V socket, providing the correct voltage (around 5 V) already... so a simple cable would be enough.

Dedicated charging points for e-bikes are unlikely to happen any time soon, simply because it's reasonable to charge one from a bog standard ubiquitous mains socket (that the batteries are small enough to be carried makes this vastly more practical than with electric cars).  It might eventually happen if one manufacturer's system becomes a de-facto standard or if some EU regulation to reduce electronic waste creates a suitable standard for charging devices in the hundred-watt-hours range (think laptops and power tools), as they have with micro-USB for smaller ones.

E-bike batteries are typically a nominal 36V (24V is rapidly going out of fashion, and 48V isn't uncommon in high-performance systems).  They do not charge at 5V, and to do so (with appropriate converters) would either make for silly heavy cables and connectors (and needless I2R losses), or impractically long charging times.  Charging lithium-ion batteries quickly and safely requires electronic control, not a simple voltage source, so there's got to be something to control the charge either in the battery pack, or in the charging point.  If the charger is generic (as with electric car DC rapid charging points) the battery will need to identify itself so it can be charged appropriately, which would require a standard.  Until then, it's going to be a case of carrying the mains charger around with you, though there's no reason manufacturers couldn't integrate that with the battery pack if they wanted to, so you could just plug an IEC 'kettle lead' (or similar) in.


Quote
I don't see a future in randonneuring, but in touring definitively...

I can see some former randonneurs who are unable to ride unassisted due to disability/injury continuing to participate socially with the aid of e-bikes, but that's only ever going to be a small minority, and mostly on the shorter rides.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on July 07, 2018, 07:08:36 pm
HK and I have been seeing tourers and loaded tourers using e-bikes in France for a couple of years. Some of the Swiss fast e-bikes are very impressive machines. Most of those we've chatted with seem to carry two batteries plus charger.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: JennyB on July 07, 2018, 07:13:28 pm
I suspect battery life combined with "dead mass" would limit their use to BP only regardless of AUK rules.

I believe JennyB OTP has form for this sort of thing.  At the current state of technology, on longer rides it becomes a non-trivial challenge in battery management, not dissimilar from the challenge of managing sleep.

Yes, I  tried the first Mille Failte and only managed the first day, mainly  because my night navigation was crap. Report here (https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=55728&p=913656#p913656).

At that time my fitness level was such that my long distance  rolling average was about 20 kph on an unassisted bike, and around 25 kph assisted, using about 5 watt hours per km. I was carrying 20 amp hours of 36 volt battery which at that usage gave me well over 100 km between charges, so the plan was to take two rest, eat and recharge stops per day of a hour each, and recharge again while sleeping. I was using two 6 amp chargers in parallel, feeding directly into the battery. The trick is to use a Cycle Analyst to check how much current you used, and time the charging to stop when you reach 80% full. That way you don't go through the lengthy balancing phase, an hour will give you a full 12 amps

Needless to say, this is not the kindest way to treat a battery. I never had a bms on that battery, and now, with 4 years of abuse later, it's down to about 8 amp hours. Get the biggest battery you can afford, and charge it as slowly as you can bear, and only charge as much as you need to.

In short, with proper planning an ebike is a definite advantage over 200 km or so. Beyond that, there's probably no time advantage, but you'll get another hour or two of rest during the day.  When cycletouring I normally bring the battery in and recharge at cafe stops. I've never been refused yet.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Lee Velo on July 08, 2018, 06:14:07 pm
Nobody wins a prize for completing an audax and it has no bearing on my ride if others are on an E-bike.

I don't think there is much scope for hiding that you are on an e-bike and I'd imagine people would have a good reason for using one IE old age or injury?

Just be prepared to give me a tow in a headwind!

Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Martin on July 08, 2018, 06:24:13 pm
Indeed: 12.1 Machines: Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles (EAPCs) may be ridden but such rides
are not eligible for validation

hmm, I though the validation was OK for BP's but not BR's; but apparently not

in which case why did peeps go apoplectic about it at the AGM a few years ago?
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on July 08, 2018, 06:28:43 pm
Because the Board allowed validation for BPs originally. More than half of those who subsequently voted on the subject thought that equating motor-assisted rides with human-powered rides in brevets was not appropriate.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Martin on July 08, 2018, 06:32:57 pm
ok thanks


Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on July 08, 2018, 06:43:29 pm
So riding an e-bike is allowed in both BPs and BRs? But no validation.

I don't think there is much scope for hiding that you are on an e-bike
AIUI many big manufacturers like Canyon and Giant are now making road e-bikes which don't really look electric. The battery is integrated into the frame inconspicuously. So you could hide the fact that you're riding an e-bike if you really wanted to. But then audaxes don't have bike (thinks of trikes) cycle (thinks of eliptigos) vehicle checks anyway, so you could be riding anything.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on July 08, 2018, 08:01:42 pm
Strictly speaking, AUK allows e-bikes to be ridden in BPs but not in BRs. Regardless of BP or BR, e-bike rides are not eligible for validation.

I think that AUK's event insurance would be somewhat compromised if ebikes were ridden in a BR but I'm not sure how compromised it would be.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on July 08, 2018, 08:04:57 pm
Surely the potential insurance problem applies equally to BPs?
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on July 08, 2018, 08:07:28 pm
No, because AUK specifically allows BPs to be ridden on e-bikes.

It was because of the insurance issue that the Board initially accepted e-bike rides for validation. The subsequent rule revision to allowing rides but not validation was acceptable to the majority of AUK members.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on July 08, 2018, 08:09:13 pm
Ok, I thought you meant if AUK allowed e-bikes in BRs, and that the insurance somehow distinguished between the two.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Banjo on July 12, 2018, 11:30:11 am
Give it a few years and e bikes will be virtually identical to ordinary bikes and batteries able to cover way longer distances than the present technology.

That will be my excuse when being overtaken by an elderly lady with a basket full of shopping.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: BeMoreMike on July 12, 2018, 01:18:39 pm
If we're currently witnessing the beginning of the end of the internal combustion engine, thus seeing the rise of electric motorbikes where then will the line between e-bike and motorbike be drawn ?
Considering that Moped is a portmanteau of motor/pedal and if you go back to the pre war years small petrol engines that you retro fitted to bicycles were very popular

What would the reaction have been if you'd turned up to a brevet on one of these ?....actually, if e-bikes are now allowed could i dig one of these out of a museum and ride it now ?? :facepalm:
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Kim on July 12, 2018, 01:36:07 pm
The arbitrary line drawn by government is that encompassed by the EAPC regulations - now harmonised with the EU 'Pedelec' definition (25kph, 250W, has to be electric, pedals have to turn, etc.), but older cycles conforming to the former BRITISH EAPC regs (basically the same but 200W for solo bikes and hand throttles allowed) are grandfathered.

AUK appears to be referring to this definition when it says:

Quote
12. Modifications of organisation and conduct applicable to Brevets Populaire
12.1 Machines: Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles (EAPCs) may be ridden but such rides
are not eligible for validation

So combustion engines - even if restricted to 25kph and 250W - aren't allowed.  And neither are electric motor vehicles (which, in UK law, is anything that's not an EAPC or an Invalid Carriage).  Or class 2/3 Invalid Carriages, for that matter (though a class 2 wouldn't be able to achieve the minimum speed for a BP anyway).
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Butterfly on July 12, 2018, 01:38:36 pm
If we're currently witnessing the beginning of the end of the internal combustion engine, thus seeing the rise of electric motorbikes where then will the line between e-bike and motorbike be drawn ?
What would the reaction have been if you'd turned up to a brevet on one of these ?....actually, if e-bikes are now allowed could i dig one of these out of a museum and ride it now ?? :facepalm:

E-bikes are pedal assist so you do have to pedal, e-motorbikes and mopeds you don't. On an e-assist it is reckoned you do about 80% of the effort so it really isn't the same as a moped, where pedalling is optional.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: frankly frankie on July 12, 2018, 01:40:58 pm
Give it a few years and e bikes will be virtually identical to ordinary bikes and batteries able to cover way longer distances than the present technology.

That's a sad dystopian future where no-one can tell the difference between a lightweight road bike and an e-bike.  Furtunately battery technology moves on much slower than most of us wish it would, and lightweight discreet power packs with kWh capacities are just a pipe-dream.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Kim on July 12, 2018, 01:48:13 pm
E-bikes are pedal assist so you do have to pedal

On a Pedalec the pedals have to turn for the motor to operate.  You don't legally have to contribute useful power, just have the option of doing so.  (Eg. with a hub motor system, you could soft-pedal so the freewheel doesn't engage, but the crank rotation sensor still sees you turning the pedals, and let the motor do all the work.  Barakta's been known to do this when her hip plays up.)

With a grandfathered EAPC you don't even have to do that.  But vintage (ie. pre April 2015) electric bikes are, almost by definition, going to be a bit rubbish.


Quote
On an e-assist it is reckoned you do about 80% of the effort so it really isn't the same as a moped, where pedalling is optional.

Depends on how you use it.  In practice most e-bike users do contribute useful power, particularly on the flat, and the better-quality systems favoured by cyclists-who-need-a-power-boost (rather than the cheaper systems that people-who-want-something-with-wheels-that's-faster-than-walking tend to use) use torque-sensing to control the motor, so it's hard to avoid doing your share.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Kim on July 12, 2018, 01:52:58 pm
Give it a few years and e bikes will be virtually identical to ordinary bikes and batteries able to cover way longer distances than the present technology.

That's a sad dystopian future where no-one can tell the difference between a lightweight road bike and an e-bike. 

As someone who may one day become elderly or (more seriously) disabled, I look forward to this sad dystopian future.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: BeMoreMike on July 12, 2018, 02:01:12 pm
I was being somewhat facetious in my previous post about vintage bikes with petrol engines. ::-)

I think current rules are adequate, but as technology moves on and the popularity of these bikes grows (hopefully very slowly imo) then they will probably need revisiting.

The only problem I can see now is if entry to an event was over subscribed and closed early, then on the day a proportion of the riders were on e-bikes...so starting with no chance of validation and potentially denying other riders who intended to ECE the event and use it to score points.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Manotea on July 12, 2018, 02:02:10 pm
Because the Board allowed validation for BPs originally. More than half of those who subsequently voted on the subject thought that equating motor-assisted rides with human-powered rides in brevets was not appropriate.

FTR...  the Board did not 'allow' anything... the Board raised a proposal that was subsequently voted on and approved by AUK members, in exactly the same way LWaB did.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: frankly frankie on July 12, 2018, 02:15:23 pm
I think current rules are adequate, but as technology moves on and the popularity of these bikes grows (hopefully very slowly imo) then they will probably need revisiting.

In any kind of group-riding context (which most audaxes are, in part, and if you choose it), e-bikes are disturbingly different to be around.  A cyclist has to stay well clear, in the same way as around a tandem trike.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on July 12, 2018, 02:29:19 pm
The Board's proposal should never have included (= allowed) validation, as the subsequent revision showed.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Kim on July 12, 2018, 02:33:06 pm
I think current rules are adequate, but as technology moves on and the popularity of these bikes grows (hopefully very slowly imo) then they will probably need revisiting.

In any kind of group-riding context (which most audaxes are, in part, and if you choose it), e-bikes are disturbingly different to be around.  A cyclist has to stay well clear, in the same way as around a tandem trike.

Unless anyone's planning on banning tandems or recumbents - or indeed riders with vastly different levels of fitness - then I don't see that being a problem.  It's just something riders have to be aware of when forming a group.  They'll soon learn to put the e-bike at the front to make a hole in the headwind[1], just as they learn to put the trike at the back to act as car-repellent, or not to get in the way of a tandem or 'bent rider trying to carry momentum through a dip.

(Personally, I'm unsure how anyone is able to develop sufficient group-riding skills for this to matter *without* becoming acutely aware that some other cyclists have very different dynamics to their own, but I suppose there must be some people who've only ever ridden in a peloton of similar ability club cyclists.)


[1] This is, obviously, cheating.  Just like riding in a group is cheating.  Or using a recumbent is cheating.  Or being male is cheating. Or...
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Ivan on July 12, 2018, 03:16:58 pm

On a Pedalec the pedals have to turn for the motor to operate.  You don't legally have to contribute useful power, just have the option of doing so.  (Eg. with a hub motor system, you could soft-pedal so the freewheel doesn't engage, but the crank rotation sensor still sees you turning the pedals, and let the motor do all the work.  Barakta's been known to do this when her hip plays up.)

With a grandfathered EAPC you don't even have to do that.  But vintage (ie. pre April 2015) electric bikes are, almost by definition, going to be a bit rubbish.


But how well regulated is this? I see e-bikes being ridden around London all the time with no sign of pedalling - is it like bike lighting where the majority of lights sold seemingly don't conform to the standard?
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: mattc on July 12, 2018, 03:29:14 pm
Considering that Moped is a portmanteau of motor/pedal and if you go back to the pre war years small petrol engines that you retro fitted to bicycles were very popular

What would the reaction have been if you'd turned up to a brevet on one of these ?

"Oh look - they've supplied a Derny for us!"
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Kim on July 12, 2018, 03:59:51 pm

On a Pedalec the pedals have to turn for the motor to operate.  You don't legally have to contribute useful power, just have the option of doing so.  (Eg. with a hub motor system, you could soft-pedal so the freewheel doesn't engage, but the crank rotation sensor still sees you turning the pedals, and let the motor do all the work.  Barakta's been known to do this when her hip plays up.)

With a grandfathered EAPC you don't even have to do that.  But vintage (ie. pre April 2015) electric bikes are, almost by definition, going to be a bit rubbish.

But how well regulated is this? I see e-bikes being ridden around London all the time with no sign of pedalling - is it like bike lighting where the majority of lights sold seemingly don't conform to the standard?

About as well regulated as anything else on the roads.  If you're in a collision and an insurance company start sniffing around, or the police decide you've failed the attitude test, you're likely to be in trouble.  Otherwise, like lights, nobody cares beyond variations on the usual 'bloodycyclists' stuff.

What it mostly means is that European manufacturers and retailers concentrate on road-legal e-bikes, with a few unregulated high-performance ones "for off-road use" (which do tend to be actual mountain bikes).

But there's nothing stopping you buying kit from outside the EU that doesn't conform and converting your BSO to zip around at 30mph on a thumb-throttle alone.  If you're lucky enough not to to be in a significant collision (as most cyclists usually are) and don't take the piss, you'll almost certainly get away with it.  I wouldn't recommend entering an audax on one, thobut.

I kind of hope the shoddy conversions are a gateway to good quality e-bikes for the people using them as a form of transport, but I don't see them going away entirely until you can buy an e-BSO (or used e-bike) for about the same as a cheap Chinese conversion kit.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on July 12, 2018, 04:04:53 pm
I wouldn't recommend entering an audax on one, thobut.
Try to keep up with the sharp end and you'll burn out the motor or drain the battery in 30 minutes. Slide down to the full-value end and they'll burn out your heart and drain your soul with merciless ribbing.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Kim on July 12, 2018, 04:06:29 pm
I wouldn't recommend entering an audax on one, thobut.
Try to keep up with the sharp end and you'll burn out the motor or drain the battery in 30 minutes.

I've made that mistake on audaxes before, and I didn't even bring electric assist.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Manotea on July 12, 2018, 04:59:39 pm
The Board's proposal should never have included (= allowed) validation, as the subsequent revision showed.

The thinking at the time of the original resolution was for a greater distinction between Brevet Populaire ("for everybody"), including those who through age or injury could no longer complete such rides unassisted (and it was enquiries from such riders that prompted the proposal in the first place) and Brevet Randonneur (Mondiale) Brevets, for 'Randonneurs'.  Part of this was to allow that riders participation should be recognised and recorded, because if the riders Brevet is not validated then as far as AUK records are concerned, "they were not there". (ref: discussions regarding recording DNF and OOT).

I do agree that whilst the proposal rationale clearly stated that that it applied to BP events that was not clear in the wording of the regulation.

This might have been resolved at the time with greater engagement from others, or indeed an amendment along the lines of LWaB's subsequent proposal; this would have given members a better opportunity to express their views.

All we can say for sure is that the membership "agreed with the previous speaker".

PS: I'm not arguing for or agin here, just providing some context...

PPS: as for fiding riding with EAPCs disconcerting, riding fixed amongst gearies is just as bad. I have to watch gearies who insist on freewheeling and slowing periodically like a hawk, and I've had gearies bounce off my back wheel because I keep pedaling whilst slowing down...
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Banjo on July 12, 2018, 08:01:43 pm
Give it a few years and e bikes will be virtually identical to ordinary bikes and batteries able to cover way longer distances than the present technology.

That's a sad dystopian future where no-one can tell the difference between a lightweight road bike and an e-bike.  Furtunately battery technology moves on much slower than most of us wish it would, and lightweight discreet power packs with kWh capacities are just a pipe-dream.

 I cant see anything sad about a world where people are moved around by machines with tiny batteries and motors. Got to be an improvement on gas guzzling petrol and diesel engines poisoning us all .
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Frank9755 on July 13, 2018, 02:18:49 pm
HK and I have been seeing tourers and loaded tourers using e-bikes in France for a couple of years. Some of the Swiss fast e-bikes are very impressive machines. Most of those we've chatted with seem to carry two batteries plus charger.

They are great for people with impaired health to use for touring.  I had several really enjoyable tours with my first wife with her using electric assist when her health was deteriorating.  Using two batteries, we were able to do 50-80km days in flat or rolling terrain comfortably, wheras without the motor she would have struggled to ride a tenth of that distance.  It really is staggering what a difference it makes.

When it is my turn for my health to fade and mobility to deteriorate, I'll be getting one! 

As others mention, they are not really suitable for audax-type rides as the distances are a bit too long - unless you carry 3 or 4 batteries, which few people do.  They are fun in rolling countryside though: basically you can go up shorter hills very quickly so maintain a high average speed.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Phil W on July 13, 2018, 03:40:48 pm
About 90% of bikes we have seen (and there are a lot) out here in Dolomites are e-bikes. They are certainly not putting in 80% of the effort of a normal cyclist uphill. 
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: quixoticgeek on July 13, 2018, 05:33:09 pm


So here's a thought. E-bikes allowed by not validated, the "sure, join your friends for the ride, but we're not giving you a medal". Makes sense. Then comes the group of riders get together, 1 rides an E-bike, the other 4 sit in behind them as a chain gang, doing a steady 25kph for the 8 hours + stops of the 200. 4 Get the medal, 5th gets beer as thanks.

2 Weeks later, one of the 4 rides the pedal assist, so that the original rider can get the medal...

Where is the line drawn?

J
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: mattc on July 13, 2018, 05:41:38 pm
Where is the line drawn?

J
Probably where the AUK members' consensus chooses it to be drawn. That won't be the "right" answer - but it will hopefully be a pragmatic answer, acceptable to most members. And it will probably evolve over time.

Where do YOU think it should be drawn? And tell us why your answer is the right one! :)
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Ajax Bay on July 13, 2018, 05:48:43 pm
Then comes the group of riders get together, 1 rides an E-bike, the other 4 sit in behind them as a chain gang, doing a steady 25kph for the 8 hours + stops of the 200. 4 Get the medal, 5th gets beer as thanks.
J
Have you read the knowledgeable posts above which explain why the power required means that a steady 25kph for 8 hours cannot be achieved because the battery will run out well before that?
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: quixoticgeek on July 13, 2018, 05:56:33 pm
Have you read the knowledgeable posts above which explain why the power required means that a steady 25kph for 8 hours cannot be achieved because the battery will run out well before that?

Yes, have you read from people talking about carrying extra batteries?

If you'll let me suck your wheel for several hours, I may even offer to carry a spare battery for you!

J
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Exit Stage Left on July 13, 2018, 05:58:06 pm
I can only see this as a problem when qualifying for PBP.

But if you get an early start at PBP, you'll have a steady supply of pacers passing you throughout the ride, assuming you plan right, and don't take some of the idiotic advice on this board.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: frankenthorn on July 13, 2018, 09:42:49 pm
But how well regulated is this? I see e-bikes being ridden around London all the time with no sign of pedalling - is it like bike lighting where the majority of lights sold seemingly don't conform to the standard?

From what I've read[1], but not confirmed for myself, there are at least some e-bikes where the speed sensor is basically the magnet+sensor combination from a cycle computer.  So moving the magnet and sensor out of alignment means that the brains of the system never knows what speed you're doing and therefore will maintain full power.

[1] It was on a YouTube video about e-bikes, where there where the usual suspects bemoaning the 15mph limit.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: malrees2 on October 05, 2018, 04:26:46 pm
Where is the line drawn?

J
Probably where the AUK members' consensus chooses it to be drawn. That won't be the "right" answer - but it will hopefully be a pragmatic answer, acceptable to most members. And it will probably evolve over time.

Where do YOU think it should be drawn? And tell us why your answer is the right one! :)

After about 5 years since my last Audax ride, having been forced to dramatically reduce my cycling due to health issues, I've come across this thread.
I'm a Lifetime Audax member, having started in 1984. I organised Audax events for several years.
Now aged 77, I've been reduced to fairly flat rides (not easy in the Brecon Beacons!). So, I've recently bought a Cube road carbon e-bike to help be so that I can ride up hills without significant breathing issues. The bike has the same gears, mudguards and lights as I would have on my normal Condor Audax bike.

My bike is limited to 25kph, but I only switch on power up the hills, so can make 250w battery last all day. This would of course not work in real mountains, but in Wales it's fine.

I don't want any Audax rides validated, as I can see that I would have assistance during the hardest parts of the ride.

My question is, would I be unwelcome riding BP's ? Should I ask each organizer in advance? Should I just enter in the normal way and get on with it?



Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on October 05, 2018, 04:36:23 pm
Just enter and ride. AUK's regulations are quite clear that e-bikers can do BPs. Just let the organiser know at the finish that you were on an e-bike.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: whosatthewheel on October 05, 2018, 05:38:22 pm
Where is the line drawn?

J
Probably where the AUK members' consensus chooses it to be drawn. That won't be the "right" answer - but it will hopefully be a pragmatic answer, acceptable to most members. And it will probably evolve over time.

Where do YOU think it should be drawn? And tell us why your answer is the right one! :)

After about 5 years since my last Audax ride, having been forced to dramatically reduce my cycling due to health issues, I've come across this thread.
I'm a Lifetime Audax member, having started in 1984. I organised Audax events for several years.
Now aged 77, I've been reduced to fairly flat rides (not easy in the Brecon Beacons!). So, I've recently bought a Cube road carbon e-bike to help be so that I can ride up hills without significant breathing issues. The bike has the same gears, mudguards and lights as I would have on my normal Condor Audax bike.

My bike is limited to 25kph, but I only switch on power up the hills, so can make 250w battery last all day. This would of course not work in real mountains, but in Wales it's fine.

I don't want any Audax rides validated, as I can see that I would have assistance during the hardest parts of the ride.

My question is, would I be unwelcome riding BP's ? Should I ask each organizer in advance? Should I just enter in the normal way and get on with it?

Looking at the photo, I think I remember you from my days at Amersham RCC... I even bought a vintage Super Record RD from you!!

As above... you are very welcome at any BP, just let the organiser know, so that validation is not issued. BR will be next, it's just a question of time... e-bikes are still a new thing and people still need to come to terms with them

On a day to day basis, I like them being around, it gives me some extra motivation... catching an e-bike up a gentle slope on my way back from work is an achievement in itself!!  :thumbsup:

Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: wilkyboy on October 05, 2018, 06:41:40 pm
Now aged 77, I've been reduced to fairly flat rides (not easy in the Brecon Beacons!). So, I've recently bought a Cube road carbon e-bike to help be so that I can ride up hills without significant breathing issues.

Elderly member of Cambridge CTC — I think he's 85 — uses an e-bike as push-to-climb and pedals himself the rest of the way while the rest of us gurn.  Riding with him completely changed my point of view of e-bikes with respect to changes in health and age-related fitness, and he was awesomely knowledgeable about all things cycling too  :thumbsup:  It helps that it's not too hilly around Cambridge, but it's still not flat if you go south.

Before that I considered all e-bikes to be only good for Deliveroo riders, as most of those seem to be using them in e-moto mode, i.e. push-to-go.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Andydauddwr on October 10, 2018, 04:33:06 pm
Like most things in this multi-faceted world of ours, I tend towards live and let live on this sort of thing.  If it gets people out there riding beyond the point where they would normally be forced to give up by deteriorating health then surely that's a good thing.  I can also see a scenario where they offer a route back to fitness for some.

To give something a bit less back of a fag packet for how far would one go, this is quite useful: https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/service/range-assistant/ (https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/service/range-assistant/).



Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Somnolent on October 11, 2018, 07:51:50 pm
Like most things in this multi-faceted world of ours, I tend towards live and let live on this sort of thing.  If it gets people out there riding beyond the point where they would normally be forced to give up by deteriorating health then surely that's a good thing.  I can also see a scenario where they offer a route back to fitness for some.

Absolutely.

BR will be next, it's just a question of time...
This fallacy keeps coming back despite the Board having made it abundantly clear that there is no intention to permit an extension to the use of e-bikes.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Grandad on October 11, 2018, 09:44:19 pm
Quote
Elderly member of Cambridge CTC — I think he's 85 — uses an e-bike as push-to-climb and pedals himself the rest of the way while the rest of us gurn.
Our slower Saturday ride regulars include 7 octogenarians and 8 who will achieve this sometime in the next 5 years.

4 of them have e-bikes and one has an e-trike.

The rest of us are watching developments in the technology very closely :)
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Cpt Sisko on October 12, 2018, 03:13:37 pm
Here’s my reality check (from my slightly biased stance) on E-Bike & Audaxing from someone who’s ridden seven Audaxes on an Orbea Gain.

First off, and it has been said before, but I’ll say it again, you still have to peddle, you still have to use the gears and you still huff & puff up the hills (well I do anyway). The motor on the Gain is a relatively low powered assistance and if you want to cycle any distance you have to put in most of the effort yourself. You can’t put your feet up and let the motor do the work for you.

Range. At best you’re looking at 60miles, 80miles tops if you’re very economical with the power assistance, off or minimal on the flat & undulating section, keep the assistance for hills and even then cautiously. Throw in a hilly course, use the power a lot and you’ll half the above figure.

In theory you could take your charger with you, (an extra 2 or 3kg in your saddle bag) and if the café will let you, recharge as you have a cuppa. However, at 4 hours to recharge from flat you’re going to add an awful lot of time to your overall ride time and no way is the power assistance going to make up for that. Ah, you say, you could carry spare battery; A, not on the Gain the battery isn’t removable and B, they’re heavy, C, of the bikes I’ve seen that you can remove the battery, they’re very heavy, not suitable for Audaxes and often the E-bike equivalent of a BSO,  and D, that would be plain cheating, (just as it would be if you got a friend with a support car to meet you part way if you were riding regular bike).

Speed. With legit e-biks the powered assistance cuts off at 15.5mph. Any faster than that and it’s your power only. The motor has switched off.

Weight. My Gain weighs 13.5kg (that’s only a fraction more than a Dawes Galaxy) before I’ve added my kit because it has a relatively low powered motor and low capacity battery. Yes, you can get higher torque motors and bigger batteries, but they weight a ton. 25 to 30kg isn’t unheard of for that type of bike, but that extra weight makes them very difficult to ride without the power assistance and the extra weight drains the heavier battery even faster. Something about laws of diminishing returns.

Given the above simple battery range is going to stop anyone riding anything more than a 100k Audax, and even then you’ll be scrapping the bottom of the barrel if it’s a hilly course. Range will come as technology improves and AUK will have to reassess as it does, but at the moment I think the current rules are fare. Allow E-Bike to take part, but not to collect any AAA points or be eligible for any mileage claims.

I’d only ever done one audax before I got my Gain, as I said I’ve done seven since I got it. At the end of the day, it’s bums on seats we want, not an argument as to whether you are a Little or Big Endian.

My question is, would I be unwelcome riding BP's ? Should I ask each organizer in advance? Should I just enter in the normal way and get on with it?
Short answer to this question; You'll be made very welcome. No one has ever raised so much as an eyebrow when I've turned up on my Gain. I don't boast the fact it's an E-Bike, but I don't deny it if someone asks. When they do it's then twenty question about the bike and jokes if they can draft behind me or if I've got a tow rope with me.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: Kim on October 12, 2018, 03:28:43 pm
I specified the electric assist on barakta's trike to be able to comfortably do a 100km ride.  It's heavy, with a massive battery, but it'll get you round a hilly ride with the assistance at a moderate level throughout.  Charge time about 2.5-3 hours, and the additional weight of the charger would be lost in the noise (all up weight is something like 38kg with battery and motor).  I reckon I could probably do a 200 on it without too much drama, assuming  a) I make a real effort with the pedals to keep the average speed up  and  b) somewhere to plug in mid ride  but that would only ever be an interesting experiement in battery management.

But anyway, the future of e-bikes on audax isn't that - the disabled people with massive batteries compensating for easy-to-ride bikes are mostly going to be doing =<100km social rides.  It's when the systems get light enough to be viable to carry around all day just to use for a boost on the bastard hills.  Eventually I see them being used the way granny rings are today, and perhaps only purists will eschew having a little motor that can give them an extra spurt of acceleration for those uphill scary roundabouts.

AUK can worry about that when it happens.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: CAMRAMan on October 12, 2018, 09:46:13 pm
As a yardstick, the 300W battery on my Bosch/Ortler ebike gets me about 25 miles at 16mph average speed. I'm 85Kg, the bike 20Kg. Upright-ish riding position, 60pse 700 x 35mm tyres.
Title: Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
Post by: whosatthewheel on October 13, 2018, 03:17:19 pm


BR will be next, it's just a question of time...
This fallacy keeps coming back despite the Board having made it abundantly clear that there is no intention to permit an extension to the use of e-bikes.

Yes, yes... give it another 10 years. When the number of e-bikes on the road will overtake that of conventional bikes, this position will be reviewed. It is premature now, by then there will be another board