Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Audax => Topic started by: BeMoreMike on November 19, 2018, 07:44:37 pm

Title: New audax.uk site
Post by: BeMoreMike on November 19, 2018, 07:44:37 pm
I stumbled across it earlier, have just spent the last hour browsing and like what I've seen so far.

I especially like the Perm section and the detailed explanations of how to DIY. It all looks like a good base to keep improving from.

When was the new site launched ? I missed all the fanfair and didn't see any mention on the old aukweb site which i've kept blundering around on.


Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Arry-R on November 19, 2018, 07:59:56 pm
All explained and very well presented at the Stirling presentation weekend.  Our thanks to all involved  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on November 19, 2018, 08:14:46 pm
I like it. The url is more logical. The layout is clearer, at least in impact. And I see the code letters for facilities and so on have been replaced by pictograms with explanation. All looks open and inviting (well, it's still audax, so inviting within the realms of geekiness at least!).
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: billy crystal on November 19, 2018, 08:18:12 pm
Hmmm. I just had a look.  I was brought up not to be rude in public.  So, given my view of what's there and how much time and money has gone into this, I'll have to keep quiet.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Ian H on November 19, 2018, 08:27:11 pm
Hmmm. I just had a look.  I was brought up not to be rude in public.  So, given my view of what's there and how much time and money has gone into this, I'll have to keep quiet.

Good or bad, it isn't functioning yet.  It's £90k's worth of respray and they haven't yet touched the engine or the chassis.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: j_a_m_e_s_ on November 19, 2018, 09:01:50 pm
Hmmm. I just had a look.  I was brought up not to be rude in public.  So, given my view of what's there and how much time and money has gone into this, I'll have to keep quiet.

But you were taught to tell the truth, no?

The layout is clearer, at least in impact.

Until you realise that instead all the perms being on one page, you have to guess which one of the 36 pages the perm your looking for is on.
Or which of the 21 calendar pages you might like to sample instead of having them all in a nice neat list in one place.
In both instances it is a bit better on a laptop with only 13 and 21 pages to randomly shoot at.

I like the pictograms. I'm happy AUK realise hieroglyphics went out of common usage circa the 4th century, and to be inclusive to the younger generations, we have a handy description for them.

I especially like the Perm section and the detailed explanations of how to DIY. It all looks like a good base to keep improving from.


It's a spruced up version of what we already had. Nothing new.



Good or bad, it isn't functioning yet.  It's £90k's worth of respray and they haven't yet touched the engine or the chassis.

And therein lies the problem.

I wasn't privy to the grand unveiling, and I'm not doubting a hell of a lot of hard work has gone into this, but can somebody please tell me what I've missed?



To say that all of what has happened has been nought more than spraying perfume on a rose seems a bit unfair. But it's some expensive perfume as far as I can see.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: yanto on November 19, 2018, 09:09:05 pm
I can't find a new one, when I search I just get this; http://www.aukweb.net/ (http://www.aukweb.net/), can someone post the new URL?

Ian

Edit found it: http://www.audax.uk/ (http://www.audax.uk/)

2nd Edit: I'm even on the front page  :o
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on November 19, 2018, 09:14:37 pm
I never look at perms, but having read that and looked, I see 22 pages. I don't know it's 22 for me and 36 for someone else. Screen size?
Calendar events are listed chronologically over several pages on both audax.uk and aukweb.net. You get fewer on a page with the new site partly, it seems, because each entry is listed with a little more information (actual distance, AAA points and whether you can enter by Paypal) in the listings and partly because the font is significantly larger.  Arguably the "view event" button at the end of each line is a waste of space as opposed to just clicking the event. The map view should be more useful than the old "sort by region" simply because the regions were so large as to be meaningless (and some of the placenames rather obscure) but it might have been nice to carry the colour coding for distance over to the map pins too.
Overall though the thing looks much more "open" than the old site.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: j_a_m_e_s_ on November 19, 2018, 09:21:16 pm
I never look at perms, but having read that and looked, I see 22 pages. I don't know it's 22 for me and 36 for someone else. Screen size?
Calendar events are listed chronologically over several pages on both audax.uk and aukweb.net. You get fewer on a page with the new site partly, it seems, because each entry is listed with a little more information (actual distance, AAA points and whether you can enter by Paypal) in the listings and partly because the font is significantly larger.  Arguably the "view event" button at the end of each line is a waste of space as opposed to just clicking the event. The map view should be more useful than the old "sort by region" simply because the regions were so large as to be meaningless (and some of the placenames rather obscure) but it might have been nice to carry the colour coding for distance over to the map pins too.
Overall though the thing looks much more "open" than the old site.

It's the higher figure on my iPad. I agree with your figures on the laptop.
Distance, AAA and PayPal are all visible on the old site.
Place names haven't changed as far as I'm aware. Great Bromley is still near Colchester, Kings Worthy is still near Winchester.
On the old page, you can choose to have up to 2years of events. Much more convenient. I assume this feature would have pushed us over budget though.

Oh wait......




As you can tell, I'm a fan.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: wilkyboy on November 19, 2018, 09:21:39 pm
2nd Edit: I'm even on the front page  :o

And a nice link to Cambridge Audax (https://www.camaudax.uk/), too — thank you!
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: wilkyboy on November 19, 2018, 09:23:43 pm
Until you realise that instead all the perms being on one page, you have to guess which one of the 36 pages the perm your looking for is on.

And since I'm a "W" then my Cambridge perms are aaaaaallll the f!cking way down at the end!! FFS — this new site is going to absolutely crucify the number of "ooh that looks nice" speculative entries I get, because users have got to work so damn' hard to find them!
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: wilkyboy on November 19, 2018, 09:25:57 pm
And I went looking for my own results — it wasn't all that obvious where they'd got to, and the sorting order leaves a LOT to be desired with ECEs separated from events on busy days — did nobody on the team think to ask Francis what the sort order should be and WHY?!! — EDIT — it turns out the sort order's not perfect on the old site either and it was my mistake to suggest it was, sorry  ::-)  The use of "accordions" to hide the results on entry to "my" page is still a UX annoyance, though.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: wilkyboy on November 19, 2018, 09:27:06 pm
And what about HTTPS?  Does nobody on "the web team" understand what that is and what it means with respect to Google searches?! 

And what it means with respect to the rather punitive GDPR?!
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: j_a_m_e_s_ on November 19, 2018, 09:28:24 pm
Until you realise that instead all the perms being on one page, you have to guess which one of the 36 pages the perm your looking for is on.

And since I'm a "W" then my Cambridge perms are aaaaaallll the f!cking way down at the end!! FFS — this new site is going to absolutely crucify the number of "ooh that looks nice" speculative entries I get, because users have got to work so damn' hard to find them!

Was it not supposed to be easier to navigate though?
If one of the criteria to entice was to make the website easier to use, I don't understand how 36pages is easier than one?
And be thankful, it's not an "L". Wow, you'd be stuck on, page [just checking.....] ;)

And what about HTTPS?  Does nobody on "the web team" understand what that is and what it means with respect to Google searches?! 

And what it means with respect to the rather punitive GDPR?!

Punitive restrictions. They are everywhere nowadays. I'm sure won't be able to edit posts soon enough.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on November 19, 2018, 09:30:29 pm
I never look at perms, but having read that and looked, I see 22 pages. I don't know it's 22 for me and 36 for someone else. Screen size?
Calendar events are listed chronologically over several pages on both audax.uk and aukweb.net. You get fewer on a page with the new site partly, it seems, because each entry is listed with a little more information (actual distance, AAA points and whether you can enter by Paypal) in the listings and partly because the font is significantly larger.  Arguably the "view event" button at the end of each line is a waste of space as opposed to just clicking the event. The map view should be more useful than the old "sort by region" simply because the regions were so large as to be meaningless (and some of the placenames rather obscure) but it might have been nice to carry the colour coding for distance over to the map pins too.
Overall though the thing looks much more "open" than the old site.

It's the higher figure on my iPad. I agree with your figures on the laptop.
Distance, AAA and PayPal are all visible on the old site.
Not immediately. For instance the first event I see is:
Quote
Fri 23 Nov 2018
300kmMoonrakers & Sunseekers from Easton, Bristol
on the old site, but:
Quote
Fri 23 Nov 2018   Easton, Bristol   300km (306km)   Moonrakers & Sunseekers   2300m   0   22:00   £13.50   Will Pomeroy   
on the new site.
Quote
Place names haven't changed as far as I'm aware. Great Bromley is still near Colchester, Kings Worthy is still near Winchester.
I hope AUK hasn't gone round changing place names. It would make a mess of route sheets! But the map allows you to see geographically where rides start from without having to know names like Great Bromley or Kings Worthy. 
Quote
On the old page, you can choose to have up to 2years of events. Much more convenient.
Yes, that could be handy.
Quote
I assume this feature would have pushed us over budget though.

Oh wait......




As you can tell, I'm a fan.
I think budget discussion is elsewhere. I'm looking at the site trying not to think about how much it cost.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: j_a_m_e_s_ on November 19, 2018, 09:34:58 pm
I'm looking at the site trying not to think about how much it cost.

Me too.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Pickled Onion on November 19, 2018, 09:48:34 pm
But the map allows you to see geographically where rides start from without having to know names like Great Bromley or Kings Worthy. 

A map view split over 13 pages  ::-) yes, that works  :facepalm:
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: bairn again on November 19, 2018, 10:15:44 pm
The IT experts (the ones that did nothing to help but know everything thats wrong and how to fix it) will be along soon. 

<goes to get popcorn>
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on November 19, 2018, 10:33:51 pm
The map pages seem to be chronological, like the list, though it's not explicit.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: postie on November 19, 2018, 10:39:11 pm
Your need a large bucket of popcorn  :demon:
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: veloboy on November 19, 2018, 10:51:38 pm
I notice the login credentials of Aukweb do not work for me on the new audax.uk site login. Maybe a teasing issue? Resetting just redirects back the forgotten password on Aukweb.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: quixoticgeek on November 19, 2018, 10:54:09 pm

Ugh. Nnnnngh

J
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: grams on November 19, 2018, 10:57:38 pm
Code: [Select]
Page 1 of 13 (311 event(s) found)
                       ^^^

Uuurgh.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: whosatthewheel on November 20, 2018, 06:57:07 am
The photo on the main page is very inspiring, but lacks pixels and as a result looks unprofessional. Isn't there a photo with more resolution around?

Using "farther" rather than "further" is a choice of words from the editorial team, on balance I would have used the more common word. The Twitter feed is a nice addition and overall the site looks OK.
The event pages need work, they look a bit dull at the moment and not much of an upgrade over the older audax.net pages
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Hot Flatus on November 20, 2018, 07:02:57 am
Calendar page is poorer. Much harder to look ahead and plan.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: bhoot on November 20, 2018, 07:24:02 am
I notice the login credentials of Aukweb do not work for me on the new audax.uk site login. Maybe a teasing issue? Resetting just redirects back the forgotten password on Aukweb.
Thanks for raising that...

There is a small difference between the authentication on the new site and the old. The old site will accept either your original system generated password (the one with random letters and numbers) OR any new password you created for yourself. However the new site will only accept your new password if you have set one (which is how most systems would work). So if you are having problems logging on the likely reason is that at some point you set yourself a password but forgot about it and are still using your original system password (we discovered this when the communications director could not log on!). The remedy is to logon to Aukweb, reset your password and then use that.

We will get a message put on both websites to inform people of this.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: bhoot on November 20, 2018, 07:25:26 am
And I went looking for my own results — it wasn't all that obvious where they'd got to, and the sorting order leaves a LOT to be desired with ECEs separated from events on busy days — did nobody on the team think to ask Francis what the sort order should be and WHY?!!
Can you send me a screen shot please - then we can log this properly as something to check out and if necessary raise with the supplier.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: bhoot on November 20, 2018, 07:27:08 am
And what about HTTPS?  Does nobody on "the web team" understand what that is and what it means with respect to Google searches?! 

And what it means with respect to the rather punitive GDPR?!

This is a very temporary situation - the project manager has this in hand. He hoped it would be sorted last week but it should be done this week. We thought it was better to put it live than keep it back for another week.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: djrikki on November 20, 2018, 08:04:35 am
Removal of the cookie notice would be appreciated - cookie law got relaxed years ago just stick a link in the footer.

Site looks great though :)

Just logged in and looked at the Event section under Members... so so much better. Great work.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: bludger on November 20, 2018, 08:08:04 am
I dig the site. Big improvement. Already starting to plan my 2019 rides.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Jaded on November 20, 2018, 08:14:01 am
The old site shouted ‘function’.

This one shouts ‘Committee’. (Like the footer, which is traditionally links only, this has paragraphs too. It is weird)

Hopefully some design expertise and content editing are to happen and this is just a sneak preview of an alpha site.

Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Bianchi Boy on November 20, 2018, 08:14:04 am
.... and now people start to realise how much IT (good functioning and robust) costs. It looks like a good start, but there is a long way to go, and then there will be the site maintenance costs.

I fear that AUK will struggle to fund a site meets the very demanding requirements of the membership and will have to make some hard decisions.
 
BB

Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: djrikki on November 20, 2018, 08:15:32 am
Dashboard observations:

1. Missing :hover state for Caret at right under "My Upcoming Calendar Events"

2. Missing :hover state for Caret at left under "My Completed Events This Season" for individual Event rows

3. Still a lot of work to optimize both tables for mobile devices (reduce font size) - applying the 'table-responsive' Class to the <table> element would help as well as it's currently impossible to scroll left/right.

4. Provisionally completed events are not indicated in any way as being as such.

+ It would be helpful if the "My Upcoming Calendar Events" accordion was already open on visiting the Dashboard page.

+ Again under "My Upcoming Calendar Events" I see the Status column, clearly both original tables have been joined, great - however it would be useful to have a checkbox to Hide/Show the "Maybes".

+ Ideally it would useful to be able to click anywhere on a row to have it collapse or alternatively align the row Carets to the Right underneath the parent Caret.

+ I'd like to be able to Sort the rows by Date, Distance and Climb and Status.

----

A couple of my rides have the Red Alert symbol showing against them they have had their AAA-rating adjusted - this is a great addition - a ride on Dec 1 now has points I can claim I never knew about.  :thumbsup:

Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Nothereforafasttime on November 20, 2018, 08:19:40 am
So is this one now defunct?

http://www.aukweb.net/
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: djrikki on November 20, 2018, 08:20:42 am
On Calendar Events under Advanced Search I can now filter out events that do not support PayPal - nice work!

Works in Permanent Events too; bonus, might encourage a few dinosaurs to join the information super highway.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: djrikki on November 20, 2018, 08:33:41 am
So is this one now defunct?

http://www.aukweb.net/

It says In Development on the new website; so No not yet.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: whosatthewheel on November 20, 2018, 09:17:31 am
So is this one now defunct?

http://www.aukweb.net/

It says In Development on the new website; so No not yet.

The all "organiser" part of it is on the old site, so it better still work, or no event will take place...  :P
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on November 20, 2018, 09:29:28 am
The site must be displaying differently to different people (which itself might indicate something not quite right?). I'm not seeing a cookie notice nor a paragraphed footer (though the footer is rather large and grey).

Good point someone raised up there^ about it being not at all obvious where to find your own results. The My Audax button could perhaps be made a bit more prominent, in colour, position, shape or similar?

PayPal is something people love to complain about – seeing it listed on the events page does show that the vast majority of events do take paypal. I can only see 3 on the first three pages that don't.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: whosatthewheel on November 20, 2018, 09:36:39 am
I noticed that if you open the Arrivee page in your profile, there is quite a lot of advert at the bottom. I would expect this to be the case when using a free platform, like Wordpress, but when paying a quarter of a million pound for a site to be developed, one would expect it to be advert free...  ::-)
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: djrikki on November 20, 2018, 09:40:04 am
I noticed that if you open the Arrivee page in your profile, there is quite a lot of advert at the bottom. I would expect this to be the case when using a free platform, like Wordpress, but when paying a quarter of a million pound for a site to be developed, one would expect it to be advert free...  ::-)

Your now on a different website "Issu" that's why.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: whosatthewheel on November 20, 2018, 09:41:01 am
I noticed that if you open the Arrivee page in your profile, there is quite a lot of advert at the bottom. I would expect this to be the case when using a free platform, like Wordpress, but when paying a quarter of a million pound for a site to be developed, one would expect it to be advert free...  ::-)

Your now on a different website "Issu" that's why.

I see... so smooth a transition, I didn't even notice... :P
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: stefan on November 20, 2018, 09:55:39 am
Immediate impression is that it looks very slick, despite the evident initial niggles.

But here's one for the grammar experts. The lovely picture on the landing page invites us to challenge ourselves "to go that bit farther".

In the UK, don't we generally go "further"?

<lights blue touch-paper and retires to a safe distance>
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: telstarbox on November 20, 2018, 11:27:14 am
They'll be visited on the sun :P
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: FifeingEejit on November 20, 2018, 01:36:59 pm
I never look at perms, but having read that and looked, I see 22 pages. I don't know it's 22 for me and 36 for someone else. Screen size?

I see 1 page with a filterable and pageable list of rides.
This is normal practice for displaying data on a web page.
What isn't normal practice is preventing people from selecting how many they want to see on each data page.

The only problem I see is that the Postcode and distance from doesn't work just now, and erm... if i was travelling down to say Tewksbury for some reason and decided I'd like to do a 200 while I was down there, I'd struggle to guess the post code...
But then I'd use Phil W's map for that sort of searching anyway.

edit: also thinking I don't know how far JoG is, but it's further away from me than a fair chunk of England, but the region based searching was rather handy (I'd always use "North" to get the events in the areas I'm willing to travel without a good USP, which is anywhere from the north coast down into Lancs and Yorks.)


Only had a quick skim but the site design looks decent and in fitting with current design practices.
It's the sort of thing I'd expect my front end developer colleagues to knock up while I deliberately stretch out the back end developments to avoid having to cry over CSS  :sick:
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: frankly frankie on November 20, 2018, 02:11:54 pm
Distance, AAA and PayPal are all visible on the old site.
Not immediately. For instance the first event I see is:
Quote
Fri 23 Nov 2018
300kmMoonrakers & Sunseekers from Easton, Bristol
on the old site, but:
Quote
Fri 23 Nov 2018   Easton, Bristol   300km (306km)   Moonrakers & Sunseekers   2300m   0   22:00   £13.50   Will Pomeroy   
on the new site.

You're confusing the front page on the old site with the Calendar page.  The Calendar page is one click away on both sites and contains comparable amounts of information on both sites.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Chris S on November 20, 2018, 02:17:42 pm
My first reaction when I saw it was "Looks like something someone with the right knowledge could bash out with Wordpress in about a month", but that's easy for me to say - I don't know what other infrastructure is in place, ready to make backend connections.

The more interesting thing to come from the presentation at the Reunion was the following exchange:

Question from the floor:  "So - after two years and £150k, we have a new UI that addresses none of the current urgent issues with AUKWEB?"
Answer from the board: "Yes."

 ::-)
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on November 20, 2018, 02:29:12 pm
Distance, AAA and PayPal are all visible on the old site.
Not immediately. For instance the first event I see is:
Quote
Fri 23 Nov 2018
300kmMoonrakers & Sunseekers from Easton, Bristol
on the old site, but:
Quote
Fri 23 Nov 2018   Easton, Bristol   300km (306km)   Moonrakers & Sunseekers   2300m   0   22:00   £13.50   Will Pomeroy   
on the new site.

You're confusing the front page on the old site with the Calendar page.  The Calendar page is one click away on both sites and contains comparable amounts of information on both sites.
Ah, I was and it does. Why there are events listed in two places on one site I don't know. I also note that "Choose a ride" on the new site is somewhat newby-unintuitive in that it requires yet another, not particularly obvious, click to discover the difference between all these types of rides.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: citoyen on November 20, 2018, 02:32:32 pm
Having now looked at the site on my desktop browser, I think it looks mostly OK. The image+slogan on the front page looks like one of those fatuous inspirational quote things posted by divs on facebook, but I don't really have a problem with that.

As others have noted, the limited number of results listed on the calendar page is a minor gripe - the optimum would be letting the user choose how many results are displayed (as per most shopping sites these days).

When I first looked at it on my phone yesterday evening, my first thought was that the calendar listing format is not optimised for small screen viewing - it needs to be more condensed. As it is, browsing through the list requires an awful lot of scrolling. Otherwise, it seems to function well.

The current lack of the 'My calendar' page is mildly irksome, but I guess that will be addressed in time.

Only other gripe is that clicking on an event on the calendar opens the detail page in a new tab. I know how to use my browser's back button, thank you very much.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: frankly frankie on November 20, 2018, 02:37:54 pm
The addition of up-coming calendar headline info straight onto the front page of Aukweb was as a result of much pressure campaigning helpful suggestions on this very forum, and when it was done it was well received here as a clear improvement over a static logo-and-statement-and-sidebar type front page.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: arkle on November 20, 2018, 02:49:05 pm
My first reaction when I saw it was "Looks like something someone with the right knowledge could bash out with Wordpress in about a month", but that's easy for me to say - I don't know what other infrastructure is in place, ready to make backend connections.


More or less what I thought. Compare and contrast with the (admittedly simpler) website of Audax Ireland.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: FifeingEejit on November 20, 2018, 02:59:26 pm
The current lack of the 'My calendar' page is mildly irksome, but I guess that will be addressed in time.

I found the equivalent, the only thing I'm not sure about on it is whether it makes sense for the Maybe and Entered events to be in the same listing.
I suspect it does, as it'll make it easier to see when you've entered one and not removed it from the maybes at the cost of having to check the entered/maybe column rather than bounce between two lists of events (or it could remove clashes between entered and maybes automatically???)


150k for a front end to and existing system's no a bad price, that's roughly the cost of 3 "man years".

As for the order of doing things,
Writing a front end that hooks into a legacy back end first makes sense to me.
Provided good practices are followed and the new back end will expose the same data or similar enough data, then the effort to change the front end is considerably less than making an old back end expose legacy interfaces to an old front end or hacking the old front end to pieces in order to make it work with the new back end.


Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: grams on November 20, 2018, 03:09:40 pm
150k for a front end to and existing system's no a bad price, that's roughly the cost of 3 "man years".

It's an off-the-shelf CMS with a few bits that pull in data from the old system. It's the kind of thing I used to knock up in a couple of weeks start-to-finish when I did this for a day job. Granted I think there's some designer time and management time on top of that but the idea anyone would think this is three man-years of work is mind boggling.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: quixoticgeek on November 20, 2018, 03:33:17 pm
150k for a front end to and existing system's no a bad price, that's roughly the cost of 3 "man years".

It's an off-the-shelf CMS with a few bits that pull in data from the old system. It's the kind of thing I used to knock up in a couple of weeks start-to-finish when I did this for a day job. Granted I think there's some designer time and management time on top of that but the idea anyone would think this is three man-years of work is mind boggling.

Agreed.

J
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: FifeingEejit on November 20, 2018, 03:48:16 pm
150k for a front end to and existing system's no a bad price, that's roughly the cost of 3 "man years".

It's an off-the-shelf CMS with a few bits that pull in data from the old system. It's the kind of thing I used to knock up in a couple of weeks start-to-finish when I did this for a day job. Granted I think there's some designer time and management time on top of that but the idea anyone would think this is three man-years of work is mind boggling.

Never said it was actually 3 man years of development work, only compared it cost wise.

Also are you viewing it from the position of someone that's only had a view of the small section of development or having taken things from the initial contact through to deliver?

One of my colleagues is particularly bad for the former and thinks that a year long project with 1 developer being paid £25k gross only costs £25k to do...
Completely ignoring the fact there's 3 tiers of managers, a Business Analyst, accommodation costs (services, rates etc.), pension costs, Employer NICS, insurance costs... also to factor in on top of that "£25k" of developer
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: j_a_m_e_s_ on November 20, 2018, 04:03:33 pm
Given that the new site is wholly dependent upon the "legacy site", when will I be forced to use the new site the "legacy site" be getting switched off?
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Craigus on November 20, 2018, 04:18:34 pm
150k for a front end to and existing system's no a bad price, that's roughly the cost of 3 "man years".

It's an off-the-shelf CMS with a few bits that pull in data from the old system. It's the kind of thing I used to knock up in a couple of weeks start-to-finish when I did this for a day job. Granted I think there's some designer time and management time on top of that but the idea anyone would think this is three man-years of work is mind boggling.

Never said it was actually 3 man years of development work, only compared it cost wise.

Also are you viewing it from the position of someone that's only had a view of the small section of development or having taken things from the initial contact through to deliver?

One of my colleagues is particularly bad for the former and thinks that a year long project with 1 developer being paid £25k gross only costs £25k to do...
Completely ignoring the fact there's 3 tiers of managers, a Business Analyst, accommodation costs (services, rates etc.), pension costs, Employer NICS, insurance costs... also to factor in on top of that "£25k" of developer

So to be clear, how long do you think this has taken? Do you really think it is value for money?

£150K seems like an exorbitant amount to me.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: FifeingEejit on November 20, 2018, 04:37:04 pm
So to be clear, how long do you think this has taken? Do you really think it is value for money?

£150K seems like an exorbitant amount to me.

I have no idea how long it's taken to get to this point but from what I've read it seems it's taken a surprisingly long time which suggests there are other factors driving up the costs (such as requirements changes).

What I can say is that £150k is a piss in the ocean compared to the cost of the stuff I work on, but then that includes complex health care systems costing multi-millions of pounds, complex interfacing and nightmarish supplier relations.

It does seem a lot for "just a website" but it's quite clear that the AUK site is not "just a website" as it's doing a fair bit more than just showing content thrown up by someone typing into a WYSIWYG editor.
It also doesn't fit into the standard "eCommerce" template as you aren't just putting products from a list into a cart and then hitting buy either.

It's very definitely a bespoke solution with very specific requirements that are likely only found in the AUK requirements (although I suppose you could skin it and sell it to other Audax bodies...).
Without seeing the scope or requirements I could never say it's definitely £150k worth of work (or how long it would take me to do, or how much I'd charge if I had done it), but it does not particularly surprise me that it's cost this much based on what I've read and can see it doing.

Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Bianchi Boy on November 20, 2018, 04:42:15 pm
The finished website is like a work of art and we are not paying for the amount of work, but for the lifetime of experience!

By the way my company pays £1,000 a day for many consultants, so this may just be six months work.

Also how were the design workshops and conceptual models funded?

After spending some time looking around and comparing to what we generate at work it looks like poor value for money.

BB
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: grams on November 20, 2018, 04:50:35 pm
One of my colleagues is particularly bad for the former and thinks that a year long project with 1 developer being paid £25k gross only costs £25k to do...
Completely ignoring the fact there's 3 tiers of managers, a Business Analyst, accommodation costs (services, rates etc.), pension costs, Employer NICS, insurance costs... also to factor in on top of that "£25k" of developer

In my job it was just me and a mate (who did sales and management) and the occasional contract designer. It's possible to do these things in a more AUK way without "three tiers of management" as if that's an essential part of putting up a simple website!
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: JonJo on November 20, 2018, 04:55:19 pm
I don't think it meets basic accessibility guidelines. See https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/

Tried to use the site in Firefox using a keyboard. Couldn't see where the focus was. It needs a proper accessibility audit.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: FifeingEejit on November 20, 2018, 05:01:28 pm
In my job it was just me and a mate (who did sales and management) and the occasional contract designer. It's possible to do these things in a more AUK way without "three tiers of management" as if that's an essential part of putting up a simple website!

True, but for whatever reason contracting a reasonable sized company has been done and is being paid for.

But it's not just a simple website or CMS system as it's got bespoke data feeds which automatically means more complexity

This is something we've had some headbanging about at work, apparently an EPR system for a healthboard is just a simple system too...
That's why when they bought one it cost a few million quid for the off the shelf part, took months to implement and a few hundred thousand more to integrate with our other systems.
And all it does is books patients into hospital, flows them through hospital and downloads demographics from the national store system.




Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: grams on November 20, 2018, 05:16:24 pm
True, but for whatever reason contracting a reasonable sized company has been done and is being paid for.

I have no problem seeing how asking a big company to do something a bit fiddly and dragging out the project for years lands you with such a big bill. The problem is that no other approach seems to have been considered and the same approach is being taken with phases 2, 3 and 4 without even the briefest moment of taking stock first.

Quote
And all it does is books patients into hospital, flows them through hospital and downloads demographics from the national store system.

The website (in Phase 1) doesn't really do anything transactional though. It just pulls in some small bits of data from the old database.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Chris S on November 20, 2018, 05:22:05 pm
Tried to use the site in Firefox using a keyboard. Couldn't see where the focus was. It needs a proper accessibility audit.

This was mentioned during the Reunion Demo. It's on the List of ToDos, apparently.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: FifeingEejit on November 20, 2018, 05:26:09 pm
The website (in Phase 1) doesn't really do anything transactional though. It just pulls in some small bits of data from the old database.

From the August statement
"The significant cost overrun was mainly to do with the interfacing between the new site and existing databases"

If that's still the case then it's not the website itself that's caused the cost to be so high, though at that time it was said "Phase 1 had itself cost in excess of £90k" which I take to mean "between 90 and 100k" not £150k but of course that was in August.

Unsurprisingly it's the bit that could be described as "difficult" that's been pointed at for the cost at that time.


The website is submitting data to the legacy databases in terms of entering events, so not just reading data but that's not going to be particularly difficult in itself.

In terms of interfacing, what is the database?
I'm having great fun trying to connect to legacy Oracle 8i systems since Oracle stopped supporting it about 10 years ago; and the Oracle 10g databases are only just still connectible.

If it's some obscure system (I also note that rewriting some elements of the database is mentioned) that could also be an issue, did someone have to write a connector in order to get access to it from modern tooling?
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: grams on November 20, 2018, 05:37:23 pm
The website is submitting data to the legacy databases in terms of entering events, so not just reading data but that's not going to be particularly difficult in itself.

If you try to enter an event (or do anything else) you get redirected to AUKWeb.

Quote
If it's some obscure system (I also note that rewriting some elements of the database is mentioned) that could also be an issue, did someone have to write a connector in order to get access to it from modern tooling?

MySQL. For which there is a first-party .Net connector.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: wilkyboy on November 20, 2018, 05:38:30 pm
My first reaction when I saw it was "Looks like something someone with the right knowledge could bash out with Wordpress in about a month" ... [blatant snip]

Exactly — my initial thought was "my 19-year-old son could've done this ... when he was 15".  Even with the database parts, I cannot see how we could've spent more than about £35k — £90-150k is taking the proverbial.

I had to back down at the AGM when I argued all this, simply because the decision by then had already been taken and approved.  However, I noted at the time that we really should have a clear strategy for limiting spend, and also for re-growing the cash-pile — something that has since been put into action by the board with the hike in fees.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: wilkyboy on November 20, 2018, 05:42:32 pm
On Calendar Events under Advanced Search I can now filter out events that do not support PayPal - nice work!

Works in Permanent Events too; bonus, might encourage a few dinosaurs to join the information super highway.

You might consider being a little less judgemental.  Audax UK is a broad church and throwing insults at organisers because they have no confidence or interest in setting up digital payments is unwarranted.  I keep having to remind youngsters that we all managed to survive without TV, computers, t'Internet, mobile phones, etc., and we were just fine.  At least those members have stepped up and organised something — for that you should be grateful rather than condescending, don't you think?
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: wilkyboy on November 20, 2018, 05:56:24 pm
I never look at perms, but having read that and looked, I see 22 pages. I don't know it's 22 for me and 36 for someone else. Screen size?

I see 1 page with a filterable and pageable list of rides.
This is normal practice for displaying data on a web page.
What isn't normal practice is preventing people from selecting how many they want to see on each data page.

It may be 'normal practice', but it doesn't make it right — "doing what has always been done" has been proven highly unreliable as a metric of efficacy.  If someone had really thought about it, would it have been so bad to just list them all on one page by default?

To be clear, on the OLD site ALL the perms are visible with just ONE click from anywhere on the site, and then scrolling — you can find my events with ONE click and scroll down.

On the NEW site then the first click (which requires a mouse-over-then-move to get to) gives you Nephi Alti and Dave Atkinson's events, plus a few others' — lucky them, woohoo.  To get anyone else's events then users must scroll to the bottom and click Next as many times as required, scrolling up to see the list, and then back to the bottom to click Next again.

There is no sign-posting and absolutely no shortcutting.  AND, because in their lack of UX skills wisdom the developers chose to set up the pagination using POST instead of GET AJAX instead of page-reload using querystring (or even RESTful-type URL) then it's not even possible for me to provide deep-links to the page that contains my permanent events.

So, basically, to find any of my Cambridge events requires AT LEAST 22 clicks — yes, twenty-two clicks!! — and many scrolls, simply because I was born a W  ???

FFS — I have spent an enormous amount of time and effort building a presence in Cambridge for audax, and it has been trivialised into something stuffed down the back of the sofa in one fell swoop by people not thinking about real users and use cases.  Cheers for that — that helps  >:(
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: JonJo on November 20, 2018, 06:09:40 pm
Tried to use the site in Firefox using a keyboard. Couldn't see where the focus was. It needs a proper accessibility audit.

This was mentioned during the Reunion Demo. It's on the List of ToDos, apparently.

Accessibility  is a fundamental and legislative requirement. It should have been in the minimal viable product. Bolting it on afterwards is so wrong in so many ways.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: djrikki on November 20, 2018, 06:25:47 pm
Tried to use the site in Firefox using a keyboard. Couldn't see where the focus was. It needs a proper accessibility audit.

This was mentioned during the Reunion Demo. It's on the List of ToDos, apparently.

Accessibility  is a fundamental and legislative requirement. It should have been in the minimal viable product. Bolting it on afterwards is so wrong in so many ways.

On public sector websites that might be the case, but on private websites thats simply not true hence why many websites are not very accessible - it'll be on the to-do list somewhere I would imagine.

Presumably they will add ARIA markup at a later point, if they've used Bootstrap, Bulma or UIKit or a similar framework it will be straightforward to add that stuff in.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: JonJo on November 20, 2018, 06:50:29 pm
On public sector websites that might be the case,

Oops. Yes, you're right. Forgot it's a private site. Stick by the rest of what I said though.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: FifeingEejit on November 20, 2018, 07:17:03 pm
The website is submitting data to the legacy databases in terms of entering events, so not just reading data but that's not going to be particularly difficult in itself.

If you try to enter an event (or do anything else) you get redirected to AUKWeb.

Quote
If it's some obscure system (I also note that rewriting some elements of the database is mentioned) that could also be an issue, did someone have to write a connector in order to get access to it from modern tooling?

MySQL. For which there is a first-party .Net connector.

Is the Aukweb redirect the state Phase 1 will end at?

MySQL... other than  :sick:  yeah that's not obscure at all which makes it off that writing a new events database was necessary, unless the original database design was horrific...
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Revellinho on November 20, 2018, 07:30:57 pm
So to be clear, how long do you think this has taken? Do you really think it is value for money?

£150K seems like an exorbitant amount to me.

I have no idea how long it's taken to get to this point but from what I've read it seems it's taken a surprisingly long time which suggests there are other factors driving up the costs (such as requirements changes).

What I can say is that £150k is a piss in the ocean compared to the cost of the stuff I work on, but then that includes complex health care systems costing multi-millions of pounds, complex interfacing and nightmarish supplier relations.

It does seem a lot for "just a website" but it's quite clear that the AUK site is not "just a website" as it's doing a fair bit more than just showing content thrown up by someone typing into a WYSIWYG editor.
It also doesn't fit into the standard "eCommerce" template as you aren't just putting products from a list into a cart and then hitting buy either.

It's very definitely a bespoke solution with very specific requirements that are likely only found in the AUK requirements (although I suppose you could skin it and sell it to other Audax bodies...).
Without seeing the scope or requirements I could never say it's definitely £150k worth of work (or how long it would take me to do, or how much I'd charge if I had done it), but it does not particularly surprise me that it's cost this much based on what I've read and can see it doing.


We are not the only ones doing something like this.  Lots of volunteers, low entry fees, not for profit etc etc.  I wonder how our TT colleagues came up with their site?  I was not TT-ing when they migrated to it, so I don't know the costings.  I used it a lot last year and found it very easy/functional.  https://www.cyclingtimetrials.org.uk/ (https://www.cyclingtimetrials.org.uk/)
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: FifeingEejit on November 20, 2018, 07:41:56 pm
I never look at perms, but having read that and looked, I see 22 pages. I don't know it's 22 for me and 36 for someone else. Screen size?

I see 1 page with a filterable and pageable list of rides.
This is normal practice for displaying data on a web page.
What isn't normal practice is preventing people from selecting how many they want to see on each data page.

It may be 'normal practice', but it doesn't make it right — "doing what has always been done" has been proven highly unreliable as a metric of efficacy.  If someone had really thought about it, would it have been so bad to just list them all on one page by default?


The paging appears to issue a server call to get the list for each page which is usually done when there's lots of data necessitating the paging at a technical level.
I have in the past managed to overload a desktop web browser by loading too much into a datagrid similar to the one on the screen, that was considerably more that 535 rows though.
My instant thought for this design is "mobile devices", less memory, less screen and fall over sooner if you have too much in the DOM.
But as I said earlier I avoid Front end development if I can.
It could of course also be the only option in the framework they've used... Which leads to a rant about one of my former bosses picking a UI library with an arsehole of a developer who seemed to take great joy in slagging off anyone that was developing for IE and was generally unhelpful... guess what browser we're required to target...

The functionality of the permanents list filter seems to be considerably more restricted than the calendar events page too.
If the postcode search box was working or a drop down of organizers provided that would be a start to making it easier to find the various perms.

Although I just typed your surname into the Search Text and got a list of your perms.
9 keystrokes and a click
Typing Cambridge in there doesn't save any keystrokes but gives the same result


Plenty of JQuery showing up, going to have a dig around.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: FifeingEejit on November 20, 2018, 07:52:56 pm
We are not the only ones doing something like this.  Lots of volunteers, low entry fees, not for profit etc etc.  I wonder how our TT colleagues came up with their site?  I was not TT-ing when they migrated to it, so I don't know the costings.  I used it a lot last year and found it very easy/functional.  https://www.cyclingtimetrials.org.uk/ (https://www.cyclingtimetrials.org.uk/)

They've paid someone: https://www.xncreations.com
Seems to be Bootstrap based

The VTTA appear to use the same website as an "oh that looks nice and right up our street" thing (according to the blurb) but the majority of their sites appear to be sports targeted.
Whether AUK could/should have contracted them rather than wots their face is a procurement thing of course...

One thing I did notice when having a shufty at their JavaScript is there are a lot of references to being directed to the "old system"; so it looks like they may have taken a clean break approach (possibly not even migrating data between the systems as it does mention that your user accounts differ between them)
which is always going to be a cheaper option.

Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: grams on November 20, 2018, 07:54:02 pm
Is the Aukweb redirect the state Phase 1 will end at?

Yes.

Phase 2 is membership backend admin and may or may not also be an AUK merch store.

Phase 3 is mapping and DIYs or possibly something involving rationalising events. But also apparently (according to an email I got from Richard) everything else that's missing. And somehow has a cost estimate less than phase 2.

Phase 4 has a date and perhaps a budget according to the chairman's Awoowoo letter but absolutely no scope and is not mentioned in any other documents that I've spotted.

As you can see, it's a tightly run ship.

Quote
MySQL... other than  :sick:  yeah that's not obscure at all which makes it off that writing a new events database was necessary, unless the original database design was horrific...

It's not clear if there is a new database or if it's just pulling everything live from AUKWeb...
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: FifeingEejit on November 20, 2018, 08:24:14 pm
Hm... that's a bit pish if the website isn't going to have the forms to submit to the entries system at an early stage.
It should be easy enough to interface them as it seems to just be a PHP page that takes in a form POST with the RideID and your details.

A Membership backend can be pretty significant or it could be a simple spreadsheet;
I've seen both the former for a >5000 member car club the later for an 80 member hiking club.

A merch store shouldn't be much work though, you can roll them out for little more than the cost of the licences and a few hours for the IT provider to install it, all the work to load the merch up into it is the job of the shopkeeper (set that one up for the >5000 member car club years ago)

So I can see how Phase 3 could be cheaper than Phase 2,

The August statement mentions that Francis has "rebuilt" a database which I take to mean either move it from one tech to another, or sit and cry at a terrible schema* and then redesign from scratch along with data migration.
Quote
"He also noted that another volunteer stalwart, Systems Delegate Francis Cooke, had offered to rebuild an important events database so that it would interface better with the new site. The Board was very happy to accept the offer"

The Audax.Uk framework appears to be Bootstrap based though the js files look quite different to those on the CTTA site.


* Although today I triedto convince my boss that there was nothing particularly wrong with the schema of one of our databases that performs badly,
the fact it's a got a single table 9Gb in size at its core isn't the problem

That it has no partitioning on a table nearly 5 times the size that Oracle give as a rule of thumb for needing partitioned and the indexes applied by blind monkeys don't line up with the queries that we execute on it being the primary problems.

He bought those but suggesting that since the data has a single relationship and is otherwise just a document didn't seem to be enough to convince him to go to the polical nightmare of suggesting we use a document database... :grump:

So crap schema isn't the only reason to greet over a poor DB.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: barakta on November 20, 2018, 08:28:40 pm
Tried to use the site in Firefox using a keyboard. Couldn't see where the focus was. It needs a proper accessibility audit.

This was mentioned during the Reunion Demo. It's on the List of ToDos, apparently.

Accessibility  is a fundamental and legislative requirement. It should have been in the minimal viable product. Bolting it on afterwards is so wrong in so many ways.

On public sector websites that might be the case, but on private websites thats simply not true hence why many websites are not very accessible - it'll be on the to-do list somewhere I would imagine.

Presumably they will add ARIA markup at a later point, if they've used Bootstrap, Bulma or UIKit or a similar framework it will be straightforward to add that stuff in.

Actually the law does apply to private websites. AUK is providing a service under section 29 of the Equality Act which makes them liable to an anticipatory duty to make reasonable adjustments (including making their website accessible).

The only difference between public and private is section 149 the Public Sector Equality Duty which is hard for individuals to enforce as it needs judicial review.

I wonder if I should email AUK and say "Hi, why is your website not accessible, it's harder to add on than just build in from the start". TODO is TOOLATE...
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Bianchi Boy on November 20, 2018, 10:36:28 pm
If the main problem is the old database structure then the first step should have beeen to design the new data base. I stated before that I cannot see anything hard in the data used by AUK. Now the GPS track and comparison software is a different matter.

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: frankly frankie on November 21, 2018, 10:03:07 am
So, basically, to find any of my Cambridge events requires AT LEAST 22 clicks — yes, twenty-two clicks!! — and many scrolls, simply because I was born a W  ???

FFS — I have spent an enormous amount of time and effort building a presence in Cambridge for audax, and it has been trivialised into something stuffed down the back of the sofa in one fell swoop by people not thinking about real users and use cases.  Cheers for that — that helps  >:(

I'm the last person to want to be an apologist for the new site, but actually it can be done IN 2 clicks (and 1 scroll).  Yes two.  One to click (after a hover) on 'Permanent events'.  Two to click on 'Organiser'.  Scroll down.

Of course that doesn't much help organisers named 'Lewis' or 'Neville'.

Typing Cambridge in there doesn't save any keystrokes but gives the same result

You can get by (on either site) with just typing "Cam".
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: trekker12 on November 21, 2018, 10:18:58 am
Very little helps new(ish) riders looking for their first permanent and who don't know the organisers by name. Or one in a different region whilst on holiday perhaps and the local organisers are not known to them.

Yes you can go to the other website which is linked in the top of the page and find local perms but that is created by an individual and not by the club so relies on one person to maintain it and presumably pay for the website they own.

The old website could be searched by region, it seems short sighted to not be able to do this anymore especially as the information clearly exists as demonstrated by the other website.

Oh and the search function doesn't find the event number I found on the other website. I had to type the name of the event to get a result.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: j_a_m_e_s_ on November 21, 2018, 10:19:49 am
So, basically, to find any of my Cambridge events requires AT LEAST 22 clicks — yes, twenty-two clicks!! — and many scrolls, simply because I was born a W  ???

FFS — I have spent an enormous amount of time and effort building a presence in Cambridge for audax, and it has been trivialised into something stuffed down the back of the sofa in one fell swoop by people not thinking about real users and use cases.  Cheers for that — that helps  >:(

I'm the last person to want to be an apologist for the new site, but actually it can be done IN 2 clicks (and 1 scroll).  Yes two.  One to click (after a hover) on 'Permanent events'.  Two to click on 'Organiser'.  Scroll down.

Of course that doesn't much help organisers named 'Lewis' or 'Neville'.

That is far from obvious. I just spent 10minutes pondering what I missed, until I picked the iPad up in portrait and another option bar appeared. It is not there in landscape.

I don't know about on a phone,
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: wilkyboy on November 21, 2018, 11:48:46 am
So, basically, to find any of my Cambridge events requires AT LEAST 22 clicks — yes, twenty-two clicks!! — and many scrolls, simply because I was born a W  ???

FFS — I have spent an enormous amount of time and effort building a presence in Cambridge for audax, and it has been trivialised into something stuffed down the back of the sofa in one fell swoop by people not thinking about real users and use cases.  Cheers for that — that helps  >:(

I'm the last person to want to be an apologist for the new site, but actually it can be done IN 2 clicks (and 1 scroll).  Yes two.  One to click (after a hover) on 'Permanent events'.  Two to click on 'Organiser'.  Scroll down.

Of course that doesn't much help organisers named 'Lewis' or 'Neville'.

Typing Cambridge in there doesn't save any keystrokes but gives the same result

You can get by (on either site) with just typing "Cam".

Fair points, both, but that's only IF riders know what they're looking for.

For people just browsing — and I get a number of entries that way — then us late-alphabet organisers are nowhere, because users habitually don't click beyond the first page or two.

TBH, if you know you're looking for Cambridge Audax rides then you'll probably start on the website (https://www.camaudax.uk/rides/permanents); I'm interested in reaching out to newcomers to riding in this area, and that's currently a major step backwards in the new system.

And another thing — on the old site, you could search by region, which I never realised, but someone pointed out, and that's a nice feature.  On the new site — nada, that feature is missing.  Thanks, again ???
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: grams on November 21, 2018, 12:13:30 pm
A Membership backend can be pretty significant or it could be a simple spreadsheet;
I've seen both the former for a >5000 member car club the later for an 80 member hiking club.

It's certainly not going to be the latter. I've just found this amazing document (https://www.dropbox.com/s/hqgnbaermf78rg6/20180718%20-%20Audax%20Phase%202%20SOW%20V%202.0.pdf?dl=0) in which AUK pays £10,625 + VAT not to build anything but for a couple of people to have a brainstorm about what the membership system might look like*. Bearing in mind there's already a 20 page document detailing everything required and dividing it into user stories.

There's also another bill (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ud6dgktvll4izz4/Audax%20Phase%201%20bug%20fixes%20and%20enhancements%20SOW%2020180829%20-%20V1.0.pdf?dl=0) for £4,600 half of which is bug fixes for things that weren't built properly in the first place, and the rest is tiny changes.

This is a fucking racket.

(* In my universe this part of the work would be done over a cup of tea before we actually got on with building it...)
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on November 21, 2018, 12:36:12 pm
And another thing — on the old site, you could search by region, which I never realised, but someone pointed out, and that's a nice feature.  On the new site — nada, that feature is missing.  Thanks, again ???
A map showing locations of event starts is more useful, since it allows you to see for yourself whatever region you fancy. Or at least it would be if it were sortable by distance, date, perm v calendar, etc.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: mattc on November 21, 2018, 12:54:56 pm
So to be clear, how long do you think this has taken? Do you really think it is value for money?

£150K seems like an exorbitant amount to me.
You've had since August to add your comments about the VFM of the work done: http://forum.audax.uk/index.php?topic=1564.225 (or on a thread near this one)

Just posting that "It's a bit crap and expensive" was never very helpful, even less so 3 months down the line.

Of course if you contributed to the work in getting this project off the ground, you have a little more right to make unhelpful complaints (but not much more ... )
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: bairn again on November 21, 2018, 01:13:52 pm
So many IT experts who could have done this so much better.  If only AUK had known. 

Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: frankly frankie on November 21, 2018, 02:55:16 pm
And another thing — on the old site, you could search by region, which I never realised, but someone pointed out, and that's a nice feature.  On the new site — nada, that feature is missing.  Thanks, again ???
A map showing locations of event starts is more useful, since it allows you to see for yourself whatever region you fancy. Or at least it would be if it were sortable by distance, date, perm v calendar, etc.

Once again, that map exists and has done for several years (although it is currently a bit dysfunctional due to Google Maps clamping down and the impending New Web making that not worth fixing) complete with filters and (if you are logged in) "near me".  'OK' the warning notice and it still works - just a bit dark!
http://www.aukweb.net/events/map/ (http://www.aukweb.net/events/map/)
There's an equivalent one for Permanents but Phil's map (https://maps.long-distance.rocks/audax-uk-permanents/) is better here, due to having better data (for now) to chew on.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: FifeingEejit on November 21, 2018, 02:56:59 pm
A Membership backend can be pretty significant or it could be a simple spreadsheet;
I've seen both the former for a >5000 member car club the later for an 80 member hiking club.

It's certainly not going to be the latter. I've just found this amazing document (https://www.dropbox.com/s/hqgnbaermf78rg6/20180718%20-%20Audax%20Phase%202%20SOW%20V%202.0.pdf?dl=0) in which AUK pays £10,625 + VAT not to build anything but for a couple of people to have a brainstorm about what the membership system might look like*. Bearing in mind there's already a 20 page document detailing everything required and dividing it into user stories.

There's also another bill (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ud6dgktvll4izz4/Audax%20Phase%201%20bug%20fixes%20and%20enhancements%20SOW%2020180829%20-%20V1.0.pdf?dl=0) for £4,600 half of which is bug fixes for things that weren't built properly in the first place, and the rest is tiny changes.

This is a fucking racket.

(* In my universe this part of the work would be done over a cup of tea before we actually got on with building it...)

10 grand for a design session and 5 for bug fixes is still minuscule compared to the numbers bandied about here for much less.
The bosses keep discovering that seemingly small changes have tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds on their price tag, and phone calls cost a bit of dosh too...

I'm suspecting you should be a multi-millionaire or at least have been rushed off your feet by a massive glut of work due to your working practices making things relatively cheap!


So many IT experts who could have done this so much better.  If only AUK had known. 

I'm yet to find IT experts that agree on anything... which occasionally gets interesting at work.
Like the colleague who appears to be terrified of me since I rather forcefully put a point across... and lost the argument for political reasons.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: frankly frankie on November 21, 2018, 03:07:01 pm
The bosses keep discovering that seemingly small changes have tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds on their price tag, and phone calls cost a bit of dosh too...

This is a point I keep making whenever proposals to tweak some AUK Regulation turn up.  Many of the ride regulations and the back-end IT processes are intimately tied together.  For example current proposals to re-classify various types of events according to a new and better heirarchy (though which 'better' of several choices is unclear so far) would send shockwaves through the existing aukweb system, never mind the new developers.
From now on any new "bright idea" such as a new award - duly democratically agreed on and voted in - will have a cost implication.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: FifeingEejit on November 21, 2018, 03:45:21 pm
The bosses keep discovering that seemingly small changes have tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds on their price tag, and phone calls cost a bit of dosh too...

This is a point I keep making whenever proposals to tweak some AUK Regulation turn up.  Many of the ride regulations and the back-end IT processes are intimately tied together.  For example current proposals to re-classify various types of events according to a new and better heirarchy (though which 'better' of several choices is unclear so far) would send shockwaves through the existing aukweb system, never mind the new developers.
From now on any new "bright idea" such as a new award - duly democratically agreed on and voted in - will have a cost implication.

And so they should be, the job of IT is to carry out business processes in the case of AUK that is defined by the regulations and administration required to facilitate them.

One of the reasons for the shock here is because the in-house development team are not time chargeable, no matter how much work we are doing, or what we are doing, we cost the same.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: D.A.L.E. on November 21, 2018, 07:21:29 pm
Bit annoying that there's no accreditation on any of the photos mind. I assume I'll be getting a cheque instead?
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: The Bonk on November 21, 2018, 07:58:56 pm
Bit annoying that there's no accreditation on any of the photos mind. I assume I'll be getting a cheque instead?

What will you spend your 340k on?
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: HeltorChasca on November 21, 2018, 08:03:00 pm
Tried everything and can’t log on. Help!
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on November 21, 2018, 08:04:41 pm
Bit annoying that there's no accreditation on any of the photos mind. I assume I'll be getting a cheque instead?

What will you spend your 340k on?
Event entries of course!
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on November 21, 2018, 08:06:31 pm
Tried everything and can’t log on. Help!
This was raised somewhere in the thread, IIRC the answer is you have to go back to the old site, alter your password and used your new password to access the new site. That's assuming you're still using your original AUK-issued password.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: HeltorChasca on November 21, 2018, 08:08:14 pm
Tried everything and can’t log on. Help!
This was raised somewhere in the thread, IIRC the answer is you have to go back to the old site, alter your password and used your new password to access the new site. That's assuming you're still using your original AUK-issued password.

Thanks. Tried that and it didn’t work. I assume it’s still your membership number only. No letters.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on November 21, 2018, 08:24:15 pm
Tried everything and can’t log on. Help!
This was raised somewhere in the thread, IIRC the answer is you have to go back to the old site, alter your password and used your new password to access the new site. That's assuming you're still using your original AUK-issued password.

Thanks. Tried that and it didn’t work. I assume it’s still your membership number only. No letters.
Yes, I think so. Well number only worked for me.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Jaded on November 21, 2018, 08:40:57 pm
A Membership backend can be pretty significant or it could be a simple spreadsheet;
I've seen both the former for a >5000 member car club the later for an 80 member hiking club.

It's certainly not going to be the latter. I've just found this amazing document (https://www.dropbox.com/s/hqgnbaermf78rg6/20180718%20-%20Audax%20Phase%202%20SOW%20V%202.0.pdf?dl=0) in which AUK pays £10,625 + VAT not to build anything but for a couple of people to have a brainstorm about what the membership system might look like*. Bearing in mind there's already a 20 page document detailing everything required and dividing it into user stories.

There's also another bill (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ud6dgktvll4izz4/Audax%20Phase%201%20bug%20fixes%20and%20enhancements%20SOW%2020180829%20-%20V1.0.pdf?dl=0) for £4,600 half of which is bug fixes for things that weren't built properly in the first place, and the rest is tiny changes.

This is a fucking racket.

(* In my universe this part of the work would be done over a cup of tea before we actually got on with building it...)

10 grand for a design session and 5 for bug fixes is still minuscule compared to the numbers bandied about here for much less.
The bosses keep discovering that seemingly small changes have tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds on their price tag, and phone calls cost a bit of dosh too...

I'm suspecting you should be a multi-millionaire or at least have been rushed off your feet by a massive glut of work due to your working practices making things relatively cheap!


So many IT experts who could have done this so much better.  If only AUK had known. 

I'm yet to find IT experts that agree on anything... which occasionally gets interesting at work.
Like the colleague who appears to be terrified of me since I rather forcefully put a point across... and lost the argument for political reasons.

10k may seem minuscule, but it has to be seen in its proper context.

That is not the context of comparing with other IT projects but the context of the reserves and income of the organisation procuring the work for 10k.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: bhoot on November 21, 2018, 09:13:27 pm
Tried everything and can’t log on. Help!
This was raised somewhere in the thread, IIRC the answer is you have to go back to the old site, alter your password and used your new password to access the new site. That's assuming you're still using your original AUK-issued password.

Thanks. Tried that and it didn’t work. I assume it’s still your membership number only. No letters.

The problem comes if you did change your password, but then continued to use your original system generated password. The new site only accepts the one you changed it to. And yes - no letters, just numbers please.

If you still have a problem pm me or better still write to membership@audax.uk with your real name and number and I am sure we can sort it out.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: willpom gwraudax on November 21, 2018, 09:31:38 pm
Being a relative newbie to audax and AUK (4yrs) and below the average age I'll say this:
The old site functioned and was clear and concise.
It wasn't a turn off to me to enjoy riding my bike.
Not denying it could do with an overhaul and as has been stated previously the actual innards are straining.
The new site looks like an improvement; but I'm what is now considered middle aged and think it looks like a mediocre makeup job.
If the aim is to attract new riders/members then AUK are mainly going to be trying to attract sportive riders (as a recent tweet implied) and the younger demographic, they are used to better sites, this is going to need a refresh pretty soon.

My honest opinions:

Calendar

Event Pages
   
Being an organiser I hope the planner is vastly improved along with some customisation of org's relevant events' pages; as personally I'd change the whole order of mine.

All this just from looking at the calendar and an event. I'm not going any deeper...

As a benchmark load a new event page in one tab and corresponding old in another (ignore the outdated graphics etc), flick between the 2 and tell me which gets the event over better. Even on a mobile phone the old site once zoomed in to fit the main column to the screen reads better IMHO.

Right, back to baking for this weekends event, that's what really counts.....
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: wilkyboy on November 21, 2018, 10:06:03 pm
Will, I think that's great feedback  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Pichy on November 21, 2018, 11:03:32 pm
Bit annoying that there's no accreditation on any of the photos mind. I assume I'll be getting a cheque instead?

What will you spend your 340k on?
Event entries of course!

You mean membership renewal... surely?
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: FifeingEejit on November 21, 2018, 11:27:30 pm
10k may seem minuscule, but it has to be seen in its proper context.

That is not the context of comparing with other IT projects but the context of the reserves and income of the organisation procuring the work for 10k.

AUK has better financial reserves and income than Scottish Health Boards by a long way!!!

That comes back to the question of why was this model of development chosen, and it is one that is now far too late to go back to.

When it comes to cost comparisons, there is relevance, companies don't usually have significantly different charging models depending on the sort of company they are selling to; there may be "adjustments" (and some like to mark up for government corporations on the basis that they print money... which is a pain in the arse as there's a couple of tools we wanted where this happens) due to bargaining skills or being charity or not for profit though, but ultimately the company employed wants to a) pay their staff b) make money for the directors and c) make money for investors.

Designing and Implementing the AUK requirements shouldn't take significantly different amounts of time between different companies so the costing should have limited variance.
Unless of course you employ a company that likes to make life difficult for themselves and so you pay for their stupidity, or have a significantly different model of working.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: grams on November 22, 2018, 12:22:42 am
That comes back to the question of why was this model of development chosen, and it is one that is now far too late to go back to.

While that's true for phase 1 and possibly phase 2, the option of saying "bloody hell, we can't afford any more of this" is always on the table.

Quote
Designing and Implementing the AUK requirements shouldn't take significantly different amounts of time between different companies so the costing should have limited variance.

Even if you accept that, but AUK is different from other companies in that it has options other than building a brand new system from scratch at commercial rates, amongst them (a) doing this with volunteers like literally everything else it does, or (b) not doing this at all and spending a much smaller amount of money / volunteer time patching up the fully functional existing system.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: HeltorChasca on November 22, 2018, 07:06:00 am
Tried everything and can’t log on. Help!
This was raised somewhere in the thread, IIRC the answer is you have to go back to the old site, alter your password and used your new password to access the new site. That's assuming you're still using your original AUK-issued password.


Thanks. Tried that and it didn’t work. I assume it’s still your membership number only. No letters.

The problem comes if you did change your password, but then continued to use your original system generated password. The new site only accepts the one you changed it to. And yes - no letters, just numbers please.

If you still have a problem pm me or better still write to membership@audax.uk with your real name and number and I am sure we can sort it out.

Thank you. I’ve tried all combos to no avail. I’ll pop an email across. Thanks all. Hope to see you soon Cudzo.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: frankly frankie on November 22, 2018, 09:21:18 am
That comes back to the question of why was this model of development chosen, and it is one that is now far too late to go back to.
While that's true for phase 1 and possibly phase 2, the option of saying "bloody hell, we can't afford any more of this" is always on the table.
Quote
Designing and Implementing the AUK requirements shouldn't take significantly different amounts of time between different companies so the costing should have limited variance.

Even if you accept that, but AUK is different from other companies in that it has options other than building a brand new system from scratch at commercial rates, amongst them (a) doing this with volunteers like literally everything else it does, or (b) not doing this at all and spending a much smaller amount of money / volunteer time patching up the fully functional existing system.

      ^^^^ this !! ^^^^
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: frankly frankie on November 22, 2018, 09:26:47 am
Thank you. I’ve tried all combos to no avail. I’ll pop an email across. Thanks all. Hope to see you soon Cudzo.

The issue could be something to do with mixed case?? Although I can't actually visualise what it would be.  The old site stores mixed-case passwords but the login comparison is all done in lowercase for some reason.  The new site is unlikely to work the same way!
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: FifeingEejit on November 22, 2018, 10:05:31 am
Even if you accept that, but AUK is different from other companies in that it has options other than building a brand new system from scratch at commercial rates, amongst them (a) doing this with volunteers like literally everything else it does, or (b) not doing this at all and spending a much smaller amount of money / volunteer time patching up the fully functional existing system.

Aye true, I do find it slightly surprising that one of the aims I read was to get away from volunteers writing and maintaining the system.
It's not like there's s shortage of IT bods into cycling that could have done the job as a volunteer collective that could have take option a
There is a point where option b isn't suitable either due to obsolescence or bad code... or both.

Although there's not a hope in hell I'm working on a LAMP stack unless it's to avoid starvation...
Finding enough willing volunteer developers that can agree on a sensible technology to use is another problem.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Craigus on November 22, 2018, 10:43:28 am
So to be clear, how long do you think this has taken? Do you really think it is value for money?

£150K seems like an exorbitant amount to me.
You've had since August to add your comments about the VFM of the work done: http://forum.audax.uk/index.php?topic=1564.225 (or on a thread near this one)

Just posting that "It's a bit crap and expensive" was never very helpful, even less so 3 months down the line.

Of course if you contributed to the work in getting this project off the ground, you have a little more right to make unhelpful complaints (but not much more ... )

I didn't realise that voicing an opinion on the internet required me to have a right to complain. If I needed one I think being a paid up member is plenty enough reason, but thanks for pointing out my error.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: jochta on November 22, 2018, 12:24:56 pm
I quite like it. A few things need changing (the headless rider on widescreens on the home page for example). Adding HTTPS is an absolute must and I'm shocked it wasn't done sooner. Event pages are cluttered. Using tables to display the calendar (which isn't very responsive and gets truncated on narrow screens) is a bit old school. The View Event column is totally superfluous as well.

My biggest bugbear is opening new tabs/windows when clicking on events from the calendar (and possibly elsewhere, I've not tested thoroughly). Taking control away from the user to use their back button and to open new tabs if they wish using shortcuts is  very annoying and not very accessible. There should never be a target="_blank" attribute on any anchor within the same website/domain.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: HeltorChasca on November 22, 2018, 01:01:32 pm
Thank you. I’ve tried all combos to no avail. I’ll pop an email across. Thanks all. Hope to see you soon Cudzo.

The issue could be something to do with mixed case?? Although I can't actually visualise what it would be.  The old site stores mixed-case passwords but the login comparison is all done in lowercase for some reason.  The new site is unlikely to work the same way!

Thank you. It wasn’t this, but good thinking. The cogs that grind are on the case behind the scenes for now. Thanks again.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Greenbank on November 22, 2018, 01:19:12 pm
Thank you. I’ve tried all combos to no avail. I’ll pop an email across. Thanks all. Hope to see you soon Cudzo.

The issue could be something to do with mixed case?? Although I can't actually visualise what it would be.  The old site stores mixed-case passwords but the login comparison is all done in lowercase for some reason.  The new site is unlikely to work the same way!

Storing plaintext passwords in 2018?
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Greenbank on November 22, 2018, 01:24:27 pm
Aye true, I do find it slightly surprising that one of the aims I read was to get away from volunteers writing and maintaining the system.

I think the aim was more to get away from it being just a few (and one in particular) volunteers who the only ones able to maintain/extend/fix the system.

Getting a professional company is certainly one solution to this, but fraught with its own problems and downsides.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: mattc on November 22, 2018, 03:35:21 pm
So to be clear, how long do you think this has taken? Do you really think it is value for money?

£150K seems like an exorbitant amount to me.
You've had since August to add your comments about the VFM of the work done: http://forum.audax.uk/index.php?topic=1564.225 (or on a thread near this one)

Just posting that "It's a bit crap and expensive" was never very helpful, even less so 3 months down the line.

Of course if you contributed to the work in getting this project off the ground, you have a little more right to make unhelpful complaints (but not much more ... )

I didn't realise that voicing an opinion on the internet required me to have a right to complain. If I needed one I think being a paid up member is plenty enough reason, but thanks for pointing out my error.
the volunteers are all (or at least mostly) paid-up members too.

(No need to thank-me, I'm here for you next time.)
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: grams on November 22, 2018, 03:46:24 pm
I think the aim was more to get away from it being just a few (and one in particular) volunteers who the only ones able to maintain/extend/fix the system.

I'm not sure how having the only way to do anything being to shovel tens of thousands of pounds AUK doesn't have to a private company is an improvement on that, TBH.

And in any case there's no clear roadmap or timeline for removing dependence on AUKweb for essential daily operations, so doing anything requires doing both for the foreseeable future.

Hooray!
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Greenbank on November 22, 2018, 03:49:19 pm
And in any case there's no clear roadmap or timeline for removing dependence on AUKweb for essential daily operations, so doing anything requires doing both for the foreseeable future.

Exactly, after which phase will they be in a position to turn aukweb off?
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: HeltorChasca on November 22, 2018, 06:46:28 pm
I’m in and having a gander. Thanks for the help.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Bianchi Boy on November 22, 2018, 08:21:28 pm
The spelling mistake is still on the front page and when are we going to get https?

I am been a little harsh here but early impressions stick and these two things need to get sorted and quickly. The spelling mistake not been fixed just should be fixed and it should only take 1 minute.

BB
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: quixoticgeek on November 22, 2018, 08:31:54 pm

Could people stop trying to login until we have https? and can we beat whoever it is at the company doing this, with a stick, to make them roll out https asap. Not having it on a site like this is beyond gross incompetence.

J
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: j_a_m_e_s_ on November 22, 2018, 09:19:50 pm

Could people stop trying to login until we have https? and can we beat whoever it is at the company doing this, with a stick, to make them roll out https asap. Not having it on a site like this is beyond gross incompetence.

J

I'm using  the old site (https://www.aukweb.net/home) as a preference until I'm forced to use the new one. See how clearly you can see the events coming up? I'm sort of cutting out the middle man, in the sense that anything meaningful is going to divert me back to Aukweb anyway.

The new one isn't quite there, so I've no reason to migrate. Just yet.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: djrikki on November 23, 2018, 08:48:19 am
Thank you. I’ve tried all combos to no avail. I’ll pop an email across. Thanks all. Hope to see you soon Cudzo.

The issue could be something to do with mixed case?? Although I can't actually visualise what it would be.  The old site stores mixed-case passwords but the login comparison is all done in lowercase for some reason.  The new site is unlikely to work the same way!

Storing plaintext passwords in 2018?

Sure sounds like it - if indeed this statement above is true.

In regards to the new website... quite clearly there has been no big announcement yet, someone leaked the new website address and we are being used as guinea pigs to test the site and iron out any issues before an official release - and nothing wrong with that given the subject matter.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: frankly frankie on November 23, 2018, 09:23:50 am
Could people stop trying to login until we have https? and can we beat whoever it is at the company doing this, with a stick, to make them roll out https asap. Not having it on a site like this is beyond gross incompetence.

Just which part of your personal data do you think is at risk?

I'm using  the old site (http://www.aukweb.net/home) as a preference until I'm forced to use the new one. See how clearly you can see the events coming up? I'm sort of cutting out the middle man, in the sense that anything meaningful is going to divert me back to Aukweb anyway.
The new one isn't quite there, so I've no reason to migrate. Just yet.

1. If linking to the old site we might at least (in this context) use the secure version https://www.aukweb.net (https://www.aukweb.net/home)
2. I don't expect that link to work for much longer.  The new site is clearly still in alpha but as soon as it gets to advanced beta stage the old front-end will be progressively mothballed and that address will probably just forward to the new site, for a while.  That could just be days away, or it could be weeks, I simply have no idea.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: jiberjaber on November 23, 2018, 09:32:34 am

Could people stop trying to login until we have https? and can we beat whoever it is at the company doing this, with a stick, to make them roll out https asap. Not having it on a site like this is beyond gross incompetence.

J

LOL - I was just about to post that not being https was no different to the original site, then I stuck https in front of the original site and it worked!... guess who's bookmark hasn't had that extra S for sometime!  :facepalm:
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Greenbank on November 23, 2018, 09:34:24 am
Could people stop trying to login until we have https? and can we beat whoever it is at the company doing this, with a stick, to make them roll out https asap. Not having it on a site like this is beyond gross incompetence.

Just which part of your personal data do you think is at risk?

If usernames and passwords are trivially available to someone snooping then that someone could login to the site using those details to view the other personal information which is stored within (address, phone numbers, etc).

Sounds like the developers are considering GDPR compliance as another "TODO" item rather than a "no ship" stop item.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: frankly frankie on November 23, 2018, 09:38:52 am
Storing plaintext passwords in 2018?
Sure sounds like it - if indeed this statement above is true.

Password security was one of the main drivers that initially got the Board (as opposed to just some individuals who wanted SHINY) behind the new project.

I'm assuming the new website will eventually have a standard 'user' login that is not merely a membership login - it surely needs to be equally accessible to non-members in terms of repeat visits and event entries.  I'm a bit surprised that what we see so far is actually much more member-focussed than even the old site is - I thought one of the original aims was something more attractive to non-members.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: frankly frankie on November 23, 2018, 09:54:21 am
If usernames and passwords are trivially available to someone snooping then that someone could login to the site using those details to view the other personal information which is stored within (address, phone numbers, etc).

I know telephone directories are a thing of the past but you're surely not too young to remember how they worked.  Were they evil??

Quote
Sounds like the developers are considering GDPR compliance as another "TODO" item rather than a "no ship" stop item.

I did have a look at the new GDPR documentation a while back, just out of idle interest, and I noticed that up-front they were making a distinction between 'personal data' (which a phone number obviously is) and 'sensitive personal data' (which it isn't, according to GDPR).  I may have got their precise terminology wrong - just going from memory.  AUK doesn't at present hold any personal data which falls under their 'sensitive' heading. 
Agreed though, that compliance absolutely requires encryption and good password practises - I'm sure the new project has both those up front, but there is a problem with Phase 1 where data is being pulled across between servers.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: quixoticgeek on November 23, 2018, 10:35:31 am
Could people stop trying to login until we have https? and can we beat whoever it is at the company doing this, with a stick, to make them roll out https asap. Not having it on a site like this is beyond gross incompetence.

Just which part of your personal data do you think is at risk?

If usernames and passwords are trivially available to someone snooping then that someone could login to the site using those details to view the other personal information which is stored within (address, phone numbers, etc).

Sounds like the developers are considering GDPR compliance as another "TODO" item rather than a "no ship" stop item.

Exactly.

J
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Greenbank on November 23, 2018, 10:44:05 am
If usernames and passwords are trivially available to someone snooping then that someone could login to the site using those details to view the other personal information which is stored within (address, phone numbers, etc).

I know telephone directories are a thing of the past but you're surely not too young to remember how they worked.  Were they evil??

The security threat of readily available personal information has increased massively over the last 20 years. Telephone directories being a thing of the past is a good thing!

They'd certainly be considered evil if they were reintroduced now with a default opt-in status.

Quote
Sounds like the developers are considering GDPR compliance as another "TODO" item rather than a "no ship" stop item.

I did have a look at the new GDPR documentation a while back, just out of idle interest, and I noticed that up-front they were making a distinction between 'personal data' (which a phone number obviously is) and 'sensitive personal data' (which it isn't, according to GDPR).  I may have got their precise terminology wrong - just going from memory.  AUK doesn't at present hold any personal data which falls under their 'sensitive' heading. 
Agreed though, that compliance absolutely requires encryption and good password practises - I'm sure the new project has both those up front, but there is a problem with Phase 1 where data is being pulled across between servers.

I'm amazed that encrypting passwords on the existing AUKweb system (and ensuring they're encrypted in the new system) isn't a priority (less so than getting HTTPS on the new site, but still).

Password security was one of the main drivers that initially got the Board (as opposed to just some individuals who wanted SHINY) behind the new project.

I find that sentence quite worrying.

(It's relatively trivial to implement in PHP in the existing system but then I'm not surprised it hasn't given the previous comments about how the majority of dev/maintenance work on aukweb was effectively stopped a while back.)

The new system will eventually be GDPR compliant does not excuse ignoring the existing system which isn't going anywhere for a while.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: quixoticgeek on November 23, 2018, 11:02:44 am
Quote
Sounds like the developers are considering GDPR compliance as another "TODO" item rather than a "no ship" stop item.

I did have a look at the new GDPR documentation a while back, just out of idle interest, and I noticed that up-front they were making a distinction between 'personal data' (which a phone number obviously is) and 'sensitive personal data' (which it isn't, according to GDPR).  I may have got their precise terminology wrong - just going from memory.  AUK doesn't at present hold any personal data which falls under their 'sensitive' heading. 
Agreed though, that compliance absolutely requires encryption and good password practises - I'm sure the new project has both those up front, but there is a problem with Phase 1 where data is being pulled across between servers.

There is also a whole extra set of rules if you're holding data pertaining to people under 18. I don't know what the minimum age of anyone involved in AUK is, but if we have children on the the membership roll, then GDPR gets a whole lot more complex.

J
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: telstarbox on November 23, 2018, 11:10:36 am
See child protection policy here: http://www.aukweb.net/official/policies/child/
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: j_a_m_e_s_ on November 23, 2018, 12:09:17 pm
Could people stop trying to login until we have https? and can we beat whoever it is at the company doing this, with a stick, to make them roll out https asap. Not having it on a site like this is beyond gross incompetence.

Just which part of your personal data do you think is at risk?

I'm using  the old site (http://www.aukweb.net/home) as a preference until I'm forced to use the new one. See how clearly you can see the events coming up? I'm sort of cutting out the middle man, in the sense that anything meaningful is going to divert me back to Aukweb anyway.
The new one isn't quite there, so I've no reason to migrate. Just yet.

1. If linking to the old site we might at least (in this context) use the secure version https://www.aukweb.net (https://www.aukweb.net/home)
2. I don't expect that link to work for much longer.  The new site is clearly still in alpha but as soon as it gets to advanced beta stage the old front-end will be progressively mothballed and that address will probably just forward to the new site, for a while.  That could just be days away, or it could be weeks, I simply have no idea.

1) What's good for the goose......Sorry, I've corrected that.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: jochta on November 23, 2018, 12:12:03 pm
It's just mind boggling to me that this site (alpha, beta or whatever) has got anywhere near the live internet without HTTPS. There is absolutely no excuses for it not to have been implemented from day one, this is apparently a professional web development company. It worries me enormously that a statement like "The new system will eventually be GDPR compliant" is even uttered. Eventually? It should be compliant now!!

I don't want to diss the site as I think it looks pretty good. A few things, as I said earlier, need tidying up but overall it looks fine. But the members need confidence that the site will be secure, sustainable and money well spent, the annual maintenance fee is enormous IIRC. The HTTPS issue is not helping with that confidence at the moment.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Greenbank on November 23, 2018, 12:17:59 pm
It worries me enormously that a statement like "The new system will eventually be GDPR compliant" is even uttered. Eventually? It should be compliant now!!

I don't think that statement has actually ever been uttered by anyone. I purposely chose to put it in italics rather than in any form of quotes in the hope that it wouldn't be taken as a quote. The phrase is my guess at how they seem to be approaching this project with regards to GDPR, so it's still an assumption, but I think it's a fair one given the evidence available.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: djrikki on November 23, 2018, 12:24:31 pm
The correct way to store passwords is using one-way encryption, I'd be very surprised if passwords are stored in plain-text.

Anyone tried using the Password Reminder function?  If you receive an email inviting you to Reset your Password (as opposed to sending you your actual password) its extremely likely (although you would have to see the database to be 100% sure) that the current system uses one-way encryption and that password is hashed and salted.  Most servers support such encryption with PHP straight out-of-the-box.

Sites don't have to use HTTPS to be GDPR complaint - the move to HTTPS is mostly driven by SEO, if the site doesn't use sensitive-data then there is no technical need for certification.  In fact in most servers configurations you can use Let's Encrypt to create self-signed certificates and it costs absolutely nothing.

Then its just an exercise of trawling through all your existing pages/code and replacing "http://" with "//" and at that point it's also a sensible idea to go through setting up any Redirections in .htaccess so old resources still point somewhere - link retention I think they call it.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Greenbank on November 23, 2018, 12:43:11 pm
Anyone tried using the Password Reminder function?

You get emailed a plaintext password that was the default I was given when I first registered many years ago. It's not the same as the password I changed mine to some years ago (which still works after doing the password recovery option).

My guess is this original password is auto-generated using the membership ID as a seed, and it will probably always work. (Yep, I can login with both this reset password and my changed password.)

So, can't tell whether the user supplied passwords are encrypted/hashed based on this.

All kinds of wrong regardless.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: 321up on November 23, 2018, 04:17:36 pm
... the old front-end will be progressively mothballed and that address will probably just forward to the new site, for a while.  That could just be days away, or it could be weeks, I simply have no idea.

So will we loose access to all the things on aukweb.net that haven't been migrated to audax.uk  ???

For example I've not been able to find the calendar download (xls & csv) on audax.uk - this is absolutely essential for us, I can't think of a way to mitigate some of the other issues without it.

Will there be a way to use the aukweb.net long list events calendar after the old front-end is mothballed?  Perhaps this can be added as an optional view on audax.uk before it's removed from aukweb.net?  In it's present form the events calendar on audax.uk is a horrible to use (i.e. split over a multiple of pages and right click 'open in new tab' does not work).  Even the audax.uk calendar events map view doesn't show all the rides (I've discovered it only shows events for whatever 'page' of events it's on - what's the point in that?).  Surely being able to quickly and easily find rides is the most important function of the website.  I hope that the events calendar and perm events sections on aukweb.net won't be shut down before they sorted out on audax.uk site.

A.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: frankly frankie on November 23, 2018, 05:20:41 pm
The detail of how the transition will work hasn't been settled yet.  But in general, I'm supposing the highest-level 'subheadings' as shown in the aukweb blue sidebar will each either work in one site or the other.  So - Joining, Calendar, Perms, DIYs etc.  It's technically possible (and occasionally necessary) to get more fine-grained than that (sub-sub- or sub-sub-sub-headings) but I think both sides will want to avoid that as much as possible.
Calendar seems fairly well-developed on the new site (if you like that sort of thing) so is obviously one of the first general areas where aukweb will switch off and simple forwarding into the new site Calendar will occur.  But the Home page itself might transition quite early in the process too - ie aukweb.net will simply forward to audax.uk - and after that it's down to the new site developers to provide access to the old where appropriate (eg Results, Members, Organisers).

If it's important to you, I'd recommend you bookmark the link to the aukweb page you want ie https://www.aukweb.net/events/download/
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Arry-R on November 23, 2018, 06:38:52 pm
, the annual maintenance fee is enormous IIRC.


I believe a sum over £2000 per month was quoted at Stirling
Last Saturday. Or some £25,000 per year approximately to cover looking after the site. Or in other words with say 8500 members then just under £3 each.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: grams on November 23, 2018, 06:58:51 pm
This table appears in the most recent board papers (costs per annum inc VAT):
Quote
1st Line Support
£2,340
2nd Line Support
£12,240
Maintenance
£14,400
TOTAL
£17,980

Anyone notice the minor mistake?

(also none of these things are hosting. Place your bets what they might be charging for that)
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Greenbank on November 23, 2018, 07:44:41 pm
I'd be surprised if the hosting wasn't covered in the £1200/month maintenance fee, but that's just a guess.

If I'd have known it was going to end up with these kinds of figures (initial outlaw and ongoing support/maintenance) I'd have been tempted to tender for it myself.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: grams on November 23, 2018, 08:23:47 pm
I'd be surprised if the hosting wasn't covered in the £1200/month maintenance fee, but that's just a guess.

That's described as two days per month "bug fixes, simple enhancements" at £600/day.

Quote
If I'd have known it was going to end up with these kinds of figures (initial outlaw and ongoing support/maintenance) I'd have been tempted to tender for it myself.

Back of the queue!
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: 321up on November 24, 2018, 06:49:54 am
The detail of how the transition will work hasn't been settled yet.  But in general, I'm supposing the highest-level 'subheadings' as shown in the aukweb blue sidebar will each either work in one site or the other.  So - Joining, Calendar, Perms, DIYs etc.  It's technically possible (and occasionally necessary) to get more fine-grained than that (sub-sub- or sub-sub-sub-headings) but I think both sides will want to avoid that as much as possible.
Calendar seems fairly well-developed on the new site (if you like that sort of thing) so is obviously one of the first general areas where aukweb will switch off and simple forwarding into the new site Calendar will occur.  But the Home page itself might transition quite early in the process too - ie aukweb.net will simply forward to audax.uk - and after that it's down to the new site developers to provide access to the old where appropriate (eg Results, Members, Organisers).

If it's important to you, I'd recommend you bookmark the link to the aukweb page you want ie https://www.aukweb.net/events/download/

Or perhaps AUK could make it easy for us and preserve the menu to all the pages on aukweb.net ?  Perhaps under an 'old website' top level menu?

I gather that we are not the only people who find the calendar and perms event information less accessible on new audax.uk than the old aukweb.net site.  Is there any technical reason why AUK could not continue to provide links to allow people to choose which site they use (at least whilst aukweb.net is still in service)?  It seems to me that would be a trivially easy thing to do and would cost very little or nothing to implement.  Is there any technical reason why the old style pages could not be hosted on the new platform when aukweb.net is retired?  Please explain how AUK can justify removing access to the old style pages when this will make the information less accessible to some people.

An alternative would be to redesign the calendar events and perm events pages on audax.uk so the information is easily accessible to everyone.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: whosatthewheel on November 24, 2018, 07:25:23 am
I pay 22 quid per year to Wordpress...  ::-)
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Redlight on November 24, 2018, 10:55:47 am
In regards to the new website... quite clearly there has been no big announcement yet, someone leaked the new website address and we are being used as guinea pigs to test the site and iron out any issues before an official release - and nothing wrong with that given the subject matter.

To clarify, the website address wasn't leaked. As the work-in-progress version was being shown to attendees at the Reunion last weekend, it seemed only right that it should be made accessible to any member so that people could try it out and give feedback - as many have done. That was my decision, in the knowledge that there was still a fair bit of work scheduled to bring the "back end" up to requirements and that anyone trying to use the site to enter rides, etc, would find that it wasn't yet fully-functioning.  It seemed better, to my mind, to do this, with the exisiting site still operating, rather than "launch" the new site with a lot of fuss and risk members not being able to use it straight away. 

That said, some of the feedback has been very helpful and has identified things that weren't on the schedule so at least we can get them dealt with before the site becomes "official". 
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Bianchi Boy on November 24, 2018, 02:50:47 pm
Just looked at the event list. There are just too many things against each entry. Simply distance, date, time, ride name and location would be enough. What all the boxes and blank screen areas about? Needs to be slimmed down to the Must in MSCW analysis.

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Manotea on November 24, 2018, 04:08:27 pm
Quote
The old system can't be be turned off but the web pages will become progressively unavailable (forwarding) as the new site develops.  Seems only right, to me.

If I was responsible for maintaining the old system I might agree but as I'm not I don't. :)

The success of the new system will be measured by its takeup. Turning off the old system for no good reason negates that.

Fact is we're going to be dependent on the old system for event entry and admin purposes for quite some time to come.

So discussions about turning off the old system are beyond premature.

In the real world systems set to be superceded are generally allowed to whither on the vine or at least proper notice given to the point where withdrawal is simply not an issue.

Regardless of whatever approach is taken, all of this might have been thought through, consultation taken and appropriate guidance offered.

(For example, some process for reporting issues arising and the programme for addressing them would have been helpful...)

As is, we have a project which has cost x man years and £100k+ released apparently with no notice or preparation.

Not so much a soft launch as a humpty-dumpty launch...

(https://ca0db8af91e40df77ff9-53ef736339d060740c31a7571682b10a.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/uploaded/h/0e6369083_1499535115_humpty-dumpty-blog.png)
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Ben T on November 27, 2018, 04:44:52 pm
Ah hah !  ;D Obviously turned custom errors off. Should be remote only in production. Amateurs  ;)
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Doo on November 27, 2018, 07:15:15 pm
A really rather splendid site if you don't mind me saying...
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: JBB on November 27, 2018, 11:52:18 pm
Looks OK to me, from a very casual glance.  But I'm a very very very infrequent user of the old site.

The colour coded distances don't work for me, but my colour vision is terrible so hey ...

I clicked on My Audax then View Membership and it crapped out with an unhandled exception (Invalid URI: The hostname could not be parsed.) & stack trace.

Edit: 

If you go to https://www.audax.uk/sitemap/ there's a placeholder showing that shouldn't be there  "____(End of Get Involved)"
Also the prefix hypnens are a bit unsightly, as in "---Top Tips"

The elements on the sitemap are text  and not links to the named pages.
The elements in sitemap do not match the menu drop downs.  Or - more strictly - they nearly do, but not quite.  eg Affiliation, Insurance and Strategy are on the menu but not the site map; History of PBP is on the site map but not the menu.  The Menu item "About audax" is mirrored on the sitemap by "Get involved".  THere are numerous other discrepancies.

On the choose a ride page https://www.audax.uk/choose-a-ride/
The links to DIYs and ECEs are prefixed http: not https:  Therefore the browser throws a wobbly when you click them

It's still rather arcane.  Audax is full of obscure codes and abbreviations.  That's part of the fun.  But this site doesn't go out of its way to explain them.  One example: https://www.audax.uk/results/rrty-roll-of-honour/ This page does not explain what RRtY stands for.  It explains that to qualify you need to have completed "a validated Brevet de Randonneur" each month for 12 months.  But it doesn't explain that "a validated Brevet de Randonneur" is actually a 200km bike ride.  There are other examples too...

OK, one last minor thing.  On search calendar events, you have to enter a full postcode (eg AB1 1AB).  Many, if not most, postcode searches (eg store locators) will allow you to enter just the outbound portion of the postcode (AB1).  I don't know whether the geolocation service that the site uses supports this, but it would be a nice to have.

Right that's it.  I'll take my nitpicking hat off and leave it alone now.

That's not nit picking. All of this should have been caught at System test by the supplier.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: whosatthewheel on November 28, 2018, 06:38:57 am
still not picked up by google... I would have thought after a week and a lot of traffic, it would be somewhere on page one.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Greenbank on November 28, 2018, 09:44:44 am
still not picked up by google... I would have thought after a week and a lot of traffic, it would be somewhere on page one.

It requires people to link to the new site, I doubt many people have done that as it is still in "soft launch" mode.

It'll pick up as people move to the new link, and when it gets tweeted about, as that will generate more links to it (albeit mostly from one site [Twitter], but a site that is popular).
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: frankly frankie on November 28, 2018, 09:58:27 am
That's due to an inconsistency in the aukweb data.  One ride has the facilities codes separated by spaces ('correct') and the other has them separated by commas.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Chris S on November 28, 2018, 10:16:57 am
still not picked up by google... I would have thought after a week and a lot of traffic, it would be somewhere on page one.

One reason for that is the lack of SSL support. Google downgrades any site that's HTTP-only; and will soon ignore them completely I think.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Greenbank on November 28, 2018, 10:22:24 am
HTTPS is in the Real Soon Now (TM) bucket though.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Chris S on November 28, 2018, 10:41:02 am
HTTPS is in the Real Soon Now (TM) bucket though.

 :facepalm:

With the advent of LetsEncrypt, there's no reason whatsoever not to default to https.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Greenbank on November 28, 2018, 10:48:57 am
Ah, they must have done it recently as I checked the other day.

Ah yes, certificate valid from 27 November 2018 so they've finally gotten around to sorting it out.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Ben T on November 28, 2018, 01:31:37 pm
If you set a URL with an invalid event id the website barfs rather than displaying a nice error page, eg https://www.audax.uk/event-details?eventId=999999
As BenT says above if you set custom errors to RemoteOnly then users in the real world will get a nice error page rather than a technical splurge.

that's your own fault for not setting your object reference to an instance of an object.  ;D

Also I tried to enter event 2147483648 this morning and it didn't even get that far ;D
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: citoyen on November 28, 2018, 07:37:06 pm
That's due to an inconsistency in the aukweb data.  One ride has the facilities codes separated by spaces ('correct') and the other has them separated by commas.

...which is because organisers have a free text field to enter this information rather than, say, a series of check boxes.

Someone earlier (maybe in a different thread) asked why we don’t give users a free text field to enter their address. This example highlights why not.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: FifeingEejit on November 29, 2018, 10:27:59 am
Removal of entered rides from your calendar is on aukweb too, it's a good question though why would you want to?
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Greenbank on November 29, 2018, 11:12:58 am
If I knew I wasn't going to make the event any more (and had told the organiser that so he can reuse my space, and not expecting a refund, etc) I'd want to remove it from my calendar. So I can see why it could be useful for some.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Bianchi Boy on November 30, 2018, 08:39:53 pm
Just been pondering the difference between farther and further and found the item below -

"The quick and dirty tip is to use “farther” for physical distance and “further” for metaphorical, or figurative, distance. It's easy to remember because “farther” has the word “far” in it, and “far” obviously relates to physical distance."

So maybe it is correct after all the hand wringing.

BB
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: JonJo on December 01, 2018, 07:33:25 pm
Anyone else not able to log into the old site? Doesn't recognise my creds but I definitely haven't changed them. Apologies if posted in wrong thread but I thought it may have something to do with the new site.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: stefan on December 01, 2018, 10:35:06 pm


"The quick and dirty tip is to use “farther” for physical distance and “further” for metaphorical, or figurative, distance. It's easy to remember because “farther” has the word “far” in it, and “far” obviously relates to physical distance."

So maybe it is correct after all the hand wringing.

BB

In the USA. Not standard UK usage.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: frankly frankie on December 01, 2018, 11:31:17 pm
Anyone else not able to log into the old site? Doesn't recognise my creds but I definitely haven't changed them. Apologies if posted in wrong thread but I thought it may have something to do with the new site.

As of now, passwords on the old site are case-sensitive.  If you're not sure what password you set up, you can still get that using the forgotten password facility under 'Members', although that too will soon change to a 'regenerate new password' facility.

Failing that you may have found an obscure corner of the old site where recent login upgrades haven't reached, in which case you'll need to explain precisely what is the problem you're encountering.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Ajax Bay on December 02, 2018, 04:51:23 pm
On the event page, for an event that I've entered, "enter online" and "enter by post" are greyed out.  That makes sense.  But there's a "delete my event" button.  If you've entered I don't think this should be enabled, as audax entries are (99% of the time) non refundable.  I don't think this should be enabled for entered rides, or at least if it is it should have a different name.

It's also enabled for ones that I have as "maybe".  In this case it's fair enough but I think it should have a different name, like "remove from Maybe list" (something better than that).
Removal of entered rides from your calendar is on aukweb too, it's a good question though why would you want to?
Because once a subscribed member downloads an entry form (or maybe goes to the 'pay by paypal' screen), the system adds that event to the 'The rides you've entered' list. But if one doesn't actually make that entry (ie by post or electronically), it's good that the button allows one to "Delete My Event" in the same way as the red cross allows one to 'Remove item from your calendar' on the current site. Otherwise the entry (in the list) will sit there (and be 'wrong'). As that (current site) page says (Note 2):
"Enter a ride from the web site. When you get to the point you open the prefilled entry form, or click to go to online payment an entry is added to your calendar. You still have to complete the entry process. Please don't think of the entries in the your calendar as being proof of entry."
I think this note should be added to the 'new' site.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: JonJo on December 03, 2018, 08:06:02 am
Anyone else not able to log into the old site? Doesn't recognise my creds but I definitely haven't changed them. Apologies if posted in wrong thread but I thought it may have something to do with the new site.

As of now, passwords on the old site are case-sensitive.  If you're not sure what password you set up, you can still get that using the forgotten password facility under 'Members', although that too will soon change to a 'regenerate new password' facility.

Failing that you may have found an obscure corner of the old site where recent login upgrades haven't reached, in which case you'll need to explain precisely what is the problem you're encountering.

I used the forgotten password link to retrieve my old password. It has had two characters trimmed from the end. I don't remember doing that so is this a 'feature' that's been added as part of the migration to the new site?
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: frankly frankie on December 03, 2018, 09:12:27 am
 Not to my knowledge.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Ivan on December 03, 2018, 04:11:49 pm
I notice the new site doesn't obfuscate organiser emails, they're available cleartext in the page source. Not sure how effective the old site's javascript code was at halting spambot email harvesters, but it's a bit disappointing that we don't even have that now.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Ian H on December 03, 2018, 04:43:21 pm
I notice the new site doesn't obfuscate organiser emails, they're available cleartext in the page source. Not sure how effective the old site's javascript code was at halting spambot email harvesters, but it's a bit disappointing that we don't even have that now.

As far as I'm aware email security is built into reputable CMS frameworks.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Manotea on December 04, 2018, 08:44:55 am
Obfuscated email addresses are up there with beards, pipes, and cardigans with elbow patches when it comes to presenting a fuddy daddy image (as is, so we're told, the very concept of 'email').

Having said that, a 'contact' button on the event listings putting up a contact form with a shopping list of reasons for the contact would be useful in helping orgs with larger events and kill off any reasons for orgs not to provide an email address, which has been a stumbling block for some time.

Also, the contact us link really should be at the top of the page somewhere, not buried in the footer.  Took me ages to spot it browsing by phone.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on December 04, 2018, 10:14:45 am
I'd have thought that was something organisers agreed to. They can set up a separate audax email and they don't have to accept postal entries if they don't want to, or they could use a PO box if concerned.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Manotea on December 05, 2018, 07:18:29 am
If you make a search for, say, 'awards', you get a response that looks like:

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/0j27wxqjc9vthde/Screenshot_3.jpg?raw=1)

Pop Quiz: What do you click on?

Answer: The page name, shown in bold black text (which is actually a link), not the URL/link shown in blue, which isnt.

Intuitive, it isnt.

When activated (hover over or selected) the heading turns to the active link colour (dark blue) but its very subtle/easy to miss.

Trying this first by phone I was left jabbing the link and wondering why nothing was happening...

Google handles this on a PC by presenting the page name in a high contrast link colour which is underlined on mouse hover-over, and on a phone the heading and link are effectively a block giving a big target for a pudgy finger. This is UX101.

We're going to pay £,600 a day to fix things like this?
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Jaded on December 05, 2018, 10:21:56 am
Conspiracy theory: Would an experienced contractor ensure that things like this were set so they had to be fixed?
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: grams on December 05, 2018, 11:00:04 am
Yes and no. I don't think they've *actively* done a bad job, but they're clearly doing the bare minimum they can get away with and just not caring.

The problem is there's no pressure for them to do a good job, because AUK have made clear they'll be awarded phases 2...N regardless of the quality of what they deliver, at whatever price they ask. I've certainly witnessed project managers become *much* more interested in what's being delivered when lucrative future work is dependent on it.

(what is AUK's ability to walk away? Do they own the source code?)
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Chris S on December 05, 2018, 12:32:23 pm
(what is AUK's ability to walk away? Do they own the source code?)

The question of who owns the code came up at he reunion presentation, and was expertly ignored.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: quixoticgeek on December 05, 2018, 12:37:03 pm
(what is AUK's ability to walk away? Do they own the source code?)

The question of who owns the code came up at he reunion presentation, and was expertly ignored.

How would one go about finding out an official answer to this question?

J
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: andyoxon on December 05, 2018, 01:43:36 pm
Searching cyclinguk for "awards" gives... https://www.cyclinguk.org/search/site/awards

On audax.uk, strange to see the url listed at all really, normally the url appears when one hovers over the search result heading...
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: grams on December 05, 2018, 02:03:28 pm
How would one go about finding out an official answer to this question?

You can have a dig through the reports here, although there's a lot of documents to go through and a lot of them are pretty vague on important details:
http://www.aukweb.net/official/minutes/

You could also try emailing it@audax.uk .
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: whosatthewheel on December 14, 2018, 08:34:56 am
I guess this put AUK woes in perspective

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46561779
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Bianchi Boy on December 14, 2018, 09:51:20 am
The out source company are not called "Crapita" for no reason.
I guess this put AUK woes in perspective

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46561779

Sent from my H8216 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: jsabine on December 19, 2018, 12:07:50 am
(what is AUK's ability to walk away? Do they own the source code?)

The question of who owns the code came up at he reunion presentation, and was expertly ignored.

How would one go about finding out an official answer to this question?

Fairly sure that when he was asked at the Reunion, Richard Jennings said that we own the code.

In any case, unless I've misunderstood or misheard several presentations to the board, we own the code.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Manotea on December 19, 2018, 11:44:20 pm
Ownership takes many forms. For example, how many AUKs have access to the code, or the tools necessary to access / navigate through the code, or would understand what they were looking at if they could?

Regardless, this should not be an issue of debate; what does it say in the contract?
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on December 20, 2018, 07:07:24 am
The contract says AUK owns the code but it is not written in straightforward language.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Ian H on December 20, 2018, 09:57:16 am
The contract says AUK owns the code but it is not written in straightforward language.

Code seldom is ;)
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: FifeingEejit on December 20, 2018, 10:16:54 am
Ownership takes many forms. For example, how many AUKs have access to the code, or the tools necessary to access / navigate through the code, or would understand what they were looking at if they could?

Regardless, this should not be an issue of debate; what does it say in the contract?

If I remember the stack right its a CMS on top of a .net based backend
Which on the face of it sounds like it should be fairly easy to get people who can work on it.

But then according to the press release at work we picked up a code set that was written for us on the basis that we owned the code and tidied it up for release... the reality is rather different.
Likewise some of the diabolical architectural messes my predecessors wrote are only fit for rewriting from scratch if we want to do anything with them.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: frankly frankie on December 20, 2018, 06:01:43 pm
I've lost track of the details but the language used is (I quote) "similar to C#".  That sounds pretty rarified to me, compared with good ol' PHP (as used for the old site and this forum).  So I'm not convinced ownership will help us all that much.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: Chris S on December 20, 2018, 06:11:05 pm
I've lost track of the details but the language used is (I quote) "similar to C#".  That sounds pretty rarified to me, compared with good ol' PHP (as used for the old site and this forum).  So I'm not convinced ownership will help us all that much.

My assumption would be it's C#, if it's .NET.
Title: Re: New audax.uk site
Post by: FifeingEejit on December 20, 2018, 07:35:10 pm
I've lost track of the details but the language used is (I quote) "similar to C#".  That sounds pretty rarified to me, compared with good ol' PHP (as used for the old site and this forum).  So I'm not convinced ownership will help us all that much.

My assumption would be it's C#, if it's .NET.

Aye so would I, though "C# Like" could mean Java complied to the .Net CLR...
I've worked with a couple of "VB.Net Like" languages in the past, fairly easy to pick up if you're actually a capable procedural/OO developer in the first place. 

Watching people who've never done set based programming before trying to understand a RDBMS is somewhere between amusing and cringeworthy, but then so is the term "NoSQL" in relation to non-relational data stores...  .

Have started looking at the job market again as it's been all but confirmed I've been wasting my time the last 3 years listening to the promises of more relevant modern development techniques; I see considerably less adverts for LAMP stack development than I used to with most stuff being this months flavour of front end on top of Java or .Net backends or microservices, Ruby on Rails seems to be another rarity now.